Hardwire verses Cable 3 Pin Bindings

[@dpo1867]

Thanks Tom. Another great video on a beautiful sunny day. Wish those hills could be moved to my backyard (-:

[@tomm9850]

I'm glad you enjoyed the video. Thanks for tuning in and I hope you are having a great season.

[@scottbalsai]

I hear you....but....I had my heel pads mounted such that I can tour with just the pins and have the spring cable heel mechanism resting on the ski deck (or climbing wire) and still attached behind my heel pad. When I am ready to go down hill, I just reach for the heel throw, slip it over the heel of my boot lock it in place and I am ready to go. The tension is just so that I can do both tour or downhill with the heel mechanism attached without much tug on my boot, but yet with enough tension to make a difference on the downhill. But I can still tour with them attached to my boot if I so choose. For allowing an adjustment that is not too tight, if you have a problem keeping the heel mechanism closed, I just gently crimp it near the heel throw rivets with a pair of pliers just a little enough to give it a little more friction to keep it closed both when it is on my heel and when it is resting behind my heel pad so that the side throw is not sticking out over the snow. The friction created by crimping them just a bit is enough to keep them closed. Because of this, I prefer them to the heavier wire cables...lighter and simpler. I never take them on and off....I only do that to adjust them for a larger boot. So I have the heel pad mounted on the ski, positioned for the the smallest boot I will use. The heel mechanism rests on top of the climbing wire that I have there as well, thus not allowing it to mark or scratch the top of my ski. This year I have decided to buy two more pairs of spring cables from Voile so that I can preadjust them for the different boots I use. The original for my leather boots, and the other two for my old T3's and my new T4's. I then tape them at the heel throw collar where it meets the spring so that I don't have to find that sweet spot every time I put them on. They are marked with different colored electrical tape and duck tape (so I can tell them apart at a glance) and even taped together at the collar so that they don't move when I pick them up to put them on. With my plastic boots, I really notice a difference with the cable attached as opposed to just the pins. So much so that paralleling is easy and yet not too tight either for the tele. In fact, this adjustment helps to keep my tele stance tight and compact and in better control. This usually means that I have one spring hook pointing up and one hook pointing down (for both plastic and leather) to get the right tension...not too tight and not too loose.

[@tomm9850]

Great tips. I appreciate the feedback, and others will benefit from your experience as well. I really like your idea of crimping the throw rivets. I wish I would have thought of that. I experimented a bit with a bit of rubber hose that I could slide over the latch to keep it closed, and that did allow less spring tension, but in the end, I preferred the feel of the hardwire over the spring cables. Thanks for taking the time to post and I hope you are having a great ski season.

[@scottbalsai]

@@tomm9850 yes, Tom...Wish we'd get more snow here in Idaho this year...for skiing and for the water table. If we don't the fires are going to be really bad this summer. Hope you guys are doing better than we are.

[@scottbalsai]

You know you can put the spring cables in with the open part of the hook up toward the ski...They are a lot easier to take off and put on that way rather than attaching them with the open part of the hook down. I put one down and the other up. That way they are less likely to fall of when you pick the ski up and flip it over...base up.

[@jgurtz]

Looks like another beautiful day out there Tom. Thanks for sharing part of the journey and some binding testing.

[@tomm9850]

Thanks for tuning in and I hope you are having a great winter.

[@florianwinter4892]

Thanks. This answered all questions I've had about these bindings. Most importantly, you can apparently use the Hardwire cable on the toe piece of an older Voile 3-pin cable binding. Do you know if it's possible to just add the extra hook to the heel piece to secure the Hardwire cable so you don't need to take it off for walking? Not that it makes a big difference, since it's possible to adjust the spring cartridge without taking the cable off... What did you use to mark the position on the spring cables? Rubber bands?

[@tomm9850]

@florianwinter4892 I couldn't come up with a workable solution for stowing the spring cable on the ski with the basic Voile 3 pin cable binding. The main problem is that if the spring is not under tension, the clamp tends to pop open, and the heel plate just isn't tall enough to keep the boot heel from making contact with the spring. It might be doable on a ski with the Voile 3 pin cable traverse binding as it is mounted on a riser and if the heel plate is placed in just the right position one might be able to clamp the spring on the heel plate. In regards to my spring cables, I just used a bit of hot glue on the threaded part to keep them set to my desired length. As discussed in the video, I really preferred skiing the hardwire over the spring cable, so I bought a set of hardwires from Voile and modded them so I could use the hardwires with all of my skis that were previously mounted with Voile's spring cable pin bindings.

[@jepetoaudet]

Thanks super helpful keep having fun like you do.

[@tomm9850]

Thanks, will do!

[@susanestes222]

Great video Tom Keep Stephen busy!

[@tomm9850]

Thanks, will do!

[@movieman6588]

I like the Voile Switchback binding because you don't have to take the hardwire off when you are in the touring mode. It is just a tab at the front that you flick to switch from touring mode to ski mode. The only issue is that you can't mount the Voile Switchback on just any setup. Such as Altai skis. It's too bad though because it is such a great binding.

[@tomm9850]

I love my downhill setup with the Switchback as well. I appreciate the feedback, and thanks for tuning in.

[@movieman6588]

@@tomm9850 I was told you can't use a leather boot with the Switchback. Have you tried it?

[@tomm9850]

I did a very short test tour with my Alfa Greenlands and I've seen others using leather boots with the switchback. It does work, but it is not a combination that I use. When I'm heading out on a tour where I need a powerful downhill setup, there are better boot options like the Scarpa T4 and T2. I don't see any reason why one couldn't use the switchback with leathers on a regular basis, and the switchback is not all that much heavier than the Voile Hardwire, so I think it is just a matter of choice as to what one prefers in regard to the kick and glide aspect of the two options.

[@Nathaniel13095]

Interesting! Those are the two bindings that I own. I hated kick and glide with the cables, and would take them off and carry them. Now I don't bother to take the cables at all, as they seem to add very little to the downhill experience. The hardwires can be locked down on the heel piece-mostly a matter of luck that I got the heel piece mounted at the right place to do that-so I just leave those in place, out of the way, not clamped on my boot, while I'm touring. It is a pretty quick procedure to clamp them onto my boots when I'm about to set off on an extended downhill. The hardwires would be a huge chore to put on and off, as opposed to just leaving them on the skis. If I wanted to carry the wires separately for some reason I would turn the hooks upside down, which would make that task easier. But really, the wires and cables make less difference than I imagined, and I'd be fine with just the pins. I'm using my Garmont Excursion plastics almost all the time now: Penalty is less than I thought for touring, and advantage greater than I thought for downhill. Seems like downhill performance is most impacted by boots, second by skis, and third by bindings. PS Tried the Switchbacks, but they felt all wrong for kick and glide on rolling terrain.

[@tomm9850]

Great feedback, and I agree. I ski the switchback X2's with my Scarpa T2's on my "steep and deep" setup, and I like that combination when the conditions warrant, but I don't think they are a good fit for most XCD skiing.

[@snbrmtvi]

@@tomm9850 could you please share what geo has the ski you use for steep and deep?

[@tomm9850]

@@snbrmtvi I ski a set of Voile Hyper V6 skis with the Voile Switchback X2 binding and Scarpa T2 boots, when I'm skiing in areas steep enough for avalanche concerns. I live in Northwest Wyoming and the snow is usually soft and cold most of the winter. I'm not an extreme skier by anyone's definition, just an old skier who enjoys skiing a variety of terrain. Here is a link for my playlist where I'm skiing the Hyper V6 setup. kzbin.info/aero/PLSbEbRoGC_hrN647C5AqgM5AJ3hVtcvSc Voile Manufacturing is based out of Salt Lake City Utah and sells direct www.voile.com/ There is also another great ski shop based out of Salt Lake, Freeheel Life www.freeheellife.com/ that specializes in steep and deep telemark gear www.freeheellife.com/

[@Matt-vo1ge]

This was really interesting, I ski the first set-up (Voille Traverse, springs, S-Bound 98s) and my oppo skis the Hard Wire (Excursion or S-Bound 98 or 110) when we tour. Completely relate to the clasp popping open whilst you ski unless its tighter than heck. Have thought about modifying the clasp to go around more but not got around to it. Which is your stronger side for Telemark? Keep the videos coming, no access to skiing this year so watching is the next best thing.

[@tomm9850]

I had to think a bit about which side was my stronger side. I'm not sure. I'm right handed and I guess that translates to my legs as well, because I usually start out with a left turn if I have a choice. I've done a lot of experimentation with the spring cables, trying to figure out how I can have them a bit looser and not pop open. One thing that helps is to have the spring a little shorter on the clasp side. I've thought about different ways to help hold the clasp closed, but so far haven't come up with an ideal solution. Anyway, thanks for tuning in, and sorry to hear that you do not have access to skiing this year.

[@CampfireKodiak]

Interesting that I found this video because last night I did an experiment with my SBound Boundless Crowns which have 3 pin hardwire and Scarpa leather telemark boots. I always mount the cables upside down so I can easily take them off in the field but mine have a riser so I can just let it ride loose behind my heel if I don't mind the weight and drag in the snow. I skied a low angle slope similar to this video six times and alternated between cable and no cable. Yes, at first I could definitely ski better with hardwires but by the last lap I had perfected my technique to the point were I looked pretty good without them. It's a tough call really but it would be completely acceptable to just use Voile 3-pin Mountaineers for a ski like this. The key is to really get on the balls of your feet, equal weight and use the big toe little toe trick for turning.

[@tomm9850]

It sounds like you have a great setup. I suspect that your Scarpa leather boots are a lot beefier than the Alfa Greenland boots I'm skiing in this video, and they should be great on their own for the kind of terrain and snow in this video. Thanks for the feedback and I'm sure others will be encouraged by hearing your experience.

[@CampfireKodiak]

@@tomm9850 A few years ago I found them new on the shelf! I tried them a few times but was having blister problems so I put them away. I pulled them out and have been softening them up with Neatsfoot oil and Mink oil. I still get a blister after 3-4 hours but they are getting better so I'm optimistic. They have such good support they are very close to my Garmont Excursions but not as tall. My Excursions however really tear up my feet and I've just about given up on them.

[@MikeSideris]

Great video Tom. This is something I've been curious about since putting the Voile 3-Pin cable bindings on my S-Bound 98s this fall. Is the rivet spacing on the toe piece of the regular 3-Pin cable binding wide enough to attach the hardwire hooks? I was tempted to buy just the hardwire piece before I realized that I wouldn't be able to clip it down to the heel piece of the regular 3-pin cable binding for climbing. I also wondered about how not having the wedge under the toe piece of the hardwire would affect performance.

[@tomm9850]

The hardwire diameter is just a bit too wide to fit into the cable binding, but they can be modified so that they will fit. I purchased just the hardwire components from Voile, and modified the "hook" attachment to work with the cable binding toe piece. I'm using this modified hardwire in this video. Voile's hardwire 3 pin has a 20 mm riser, so it definitely would ski differently than without the riser. I have two future videos in production, one where I modify the spring cable to make it easier to put on and take off, and a second video showing how I modified a hardwire so it would work with my standard 3 pin cable binding and my 3 pin cable traverse. Stay tuned.

[@MikeSideris]

@@tomm9850 Thanks Tom!

[@NH-Bill]

So Tom, ignorant question here...can a 3 pin boot work with the hardwire bindings (such as for duck Bill boots)?

[@tomm9850]

There have been many different variations of 75 mm (3 pin) bindings with spring cables and hardwires produced over the years. Some combinations of boots and bindings work better than others. If you plan on using a hardwire or cable system, make sure the boots have a groove or a "shelf" on the heel that will accept the cable or hardwire lever. Most modern 3 pin boots have the heel provision but some vintage boots that show up in thrift stores or on Ebay may not. Some of the older vintage duckbill boots were designed for cross country skiing with a simple 3 pin binding and were very common before the NNN system was introduced. (NNN is the binding/boot system that has a toe bar instead of pins). Now here is the twist. Some of the beefier 75 mm bindings with hardwires and cables were designed for use with plastic telemark boots. Plastic telemark boots have a thicker duckbill than what is typical on leather duckbill boots. If you have a specific boot and binding combination that you are unsure of, post back and I'll see if I can find an answer for you.

[@rahulrane1658]

Tom, when faced mixed terrain (both up and down), do you keep applying and removing skins, or do you just herringbone the ups and do not use skins? thank you!

[@tomm9850]

I don't usually put skins on for rolling terrain, unless of course there is no grip at all. That is a rare instance, but can occur in the spring, early in the morning, when dealing with ice. Mini skins work very well under those conditions, as the mini skins allow for some glide. Often in my videos, you might see me putting skins on my skis, and that is because many of my outings are "tours for turns" where I might climb 1000 feet or more, in a single continuous climb. In those circumstances, I prefer to attack the uphill at a steeper angle. It is easier to climb using skins than it is using the ski's traction pattern or using a grip wax on a waxible ski. If the uphill is short and easily climbed without skins, then it is not worth the extra effort to put the skins on and take them off more than a couple of times over the course of a few hours.

[@rahulrane1658]

@@tomm9850 Awesome. For those short uphills, do you use herringbone to climb up? If not, then how do you gain traction uphill?

[@gusgusterfson6838]

I’m pretty sure his skis have a traction base or “fishscales” that provides some grip for climbing and kick&glide. You can hear the buzzing sound they make as he descends. Perfect type of skis for the rolling terrain he is on.

[@Sirskibumsalot]

Hey Tom thanks for the info .....Have you ever tried out those Voile switch back bindings ? They have a switch for touring mode and then back to ski mode . Im thinking about trying those out soon .....Ok snow heading my way this weekend Im heading into the BC ....Cheers !

[@tomm9850]

I have the Voile Switchback X2 binding mounted on a set of Voile Hyper V6 skis. I use a set of Scarpa T2 plastic boots with them and I use this combination as my "steep and deep" telemark setup. It is a great binding.

[@claudiarose7545]

Hi Tom greeting from your southerly neighbor in the winds. I've been following your posts for a little while as I got geared up to play here after years of tele "laps" and its been really helpful! It never occurred to me to use my hardwires on my tele skis on my voile cable bindings, can I just switch them out? The cables tend to pop open as you described and when they are tight enough they make my toes hurt on the long tours.

[@tomm9850]

Voile's hardwire diameter is just a bit too wide to fit into Voile's cable bindings, but they can be modified so that they will fit. I purchased just the hardwire components from Voile (as spare parts), and modified the "hook" attachment to work with the cable binding toe piece. I'm using this modified hardwire in this video. I have two future videos in production, one where I modify the spring cable to make it easier to put on and take off (Jan 28), and a second video showing how I modified a hardwire so it would work with my standard 3 pin cable binding and my 3 pin cable traverse (Feb 4). Stay tuned.

[@pab887]

Hi Tom, love the channel, I am new to back country sking in upstate Ny and got a Karhu XCD Guide Backcountry Skis with 3 pin binding for free that are in great shape with leather boots, Would these be a ok ski to start off or would you recomend a new ski? Any input would be great.

[@tomm9850]

I've never skied the Karhu XCD Guide's, but I did take a look at the specifications www.rei.com/product/791370/karhu-xcd-guide-backcountry-skis. These skis, with their single camber, 109 mm tip, and generous sidecut, should make a great ski for learning the downhill end of XCD skiing. I'm guessing that they won't be as fast on the flats as narrower skis with double camber, and they certainly wouldn't be appropriate for use on a groomed XC trail, but as an off trail ski, where the focus is primarily on downhill turnability and stability, they should work out great. My advice is to give them a try and use them as a starting point to build your skills and find out if this sport is something that you wish to pursue.

[@pab887]

@@tomm9850 Thanks for your input

[@jgurtz]

These skis are pretty much the same as the Madshus Annum 78 skis I believe. I have a pair of those with the red topsheet and with the hardwire that Tom showed here. I ski them with the Scott Excursion boots and the setup is pretty great for downhill, less so for the flats where they're slow. That's ok though since I like to look around and not out to win any races. I think you may want to consider getting a pair of the Scarpa T4 or the Scott Excursion if you plain on doing steeper descents; even without the hardwire the plastic boots give plenty of support. But, the leathers will probably make the flats a little less exerting.

[@danr9128]

How will 3 pin alone hold up with scarpa t4 on sbound 98? And would that be possible at resorts?

[@tomm9850]

I skied a Voile 3 pin and a Rottefella Super Telemark 3 Pin on several versions of 98's over the years, both with leathers and with 2 different versions of the Scarpa T4. The Scarpa T4 is a powerful boot in comparison to leathers but I've never had any issues with the binding pulling out. It is always a good idea to use epoxy or other suitable glue in the screw hole as I think that strengthens the mount. I wouldn't consider the SB 98 as a good resort ski. It is mainly a soft snow off trail XC ski and my favorite for that type of skiing. It would be fine to play around with the SB 98 at the resort under good snow conditions, especially to gain skill with the gear for off trail use, but if the intent is to only ski at the resort, then I think you would be better off with a downhill ski as opposed to an XC ski.

[@danr9128]

@@tomm9850 I'd only use it to build tele turn skills.

[@gradywright]

Thanks for the video Tom. I always enjoy them and find them helpful. I’m curious about your boots. Do you find the Greenlands true to size? I bought the guard advanced and they were quite big compared to the alpina boots I’ve tried in the same EUR sizing. I mainly bought the guard because I couldn’t find a good fitting 75mm boot but I’m thinking about giving the greenlands a try.

[@tomm9850]

I have two sets of Alfa boots, the NNN-BC Skarvet and the 75 mm Greenland, both in size 42. It’s been my experience that there is a big variance between brands and even between boot styles of the same brand. These Alfa boots are roomer than my Rossignol BC X-12 which are also a size 42. My Scarpa t2's are a mondo 27.5. I wore a set of Fischer BCX 675's for a couple of years in size 43 and they felt a bit large for my feet. The Fischer BCX 675's in size 42 were too tight. I'm currently wearing a size 10 (American size) in hiking boots (Lowa Renegade). The Alfa Skarvets in size 42 seem to be a good fit as far as length and width, but I have had some issues with heel slippage and heel blisters. It is not as bad after two seasons, but I’m still taping my heels with 3M micropore tape. I'm certain that 43's would be too large. The Greenlands on the other hand fit, but I wish it was available a half size larger. I don’t have heel slippage with the Greenlands, but telemarking with 75 mm boots tend to put more pressure on the toe box, and I have had some issues with the toes on my right foot. I've been told that the Alfa boots run a bit larger than other brands because Norwegians tend to wear heavy socks, but I can't confirm that. I've not tried on a pair of the Guard Advance, so I don't know for sure how the sizing compares with my boots. You might shoot Alfa an email to see what they say. You might also experiment with thicker socks and/or with a thicker insole to see if that would help. One thing is for sure, ill fitting boots are a pain. I wish you luck, and report back if you find a workable solution. If you haven't already, check out www.telemarktalk.com for information regarding boot sizing. I know there are several members skiing the Guard Advance boots, and if yours do not work out, it might be a good place to sell them.

[@wyskass861]

What's all this aboot?

[@tomm9850]

[@brentnistler7684]

Nice !

[@tomm9850]

Glad you enjoyed the video. Thanks for tuning in and I wish you the best for 2023.

[@williamd.2578]

Greetings from Russia, Udmurtia

[@tomm9850]

Thanks for tuning in and I hope you are having a great winter. Спасибо за настройку, и я надеюсь, что у вас отличная зима.

[@rockymountainwoman2618]

Free the heel get rid of the cable!