Haydn Sonata in E Flat Major, Hob XVI 52 - Alfred Brendel

[@fredericchopin7332]

this is definitely Haydn´s best sonata

[@classicgameplay10]

Why ?

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

@@classicgameplay10 Trying to rank Haydn’s greatest piano sonatas (or those of Mozart, Beethoven, or anyone else) is as great a waste of time as trying to say which is the best colour of the rainbow, and normally ends up just being a ranking of personal favourites. With all three composers you can separate the wheat (great works) from the chaff (works intended for students or popular sales) easily enough, so nobody is going to claim that any of Haydn’s early partiti or divertimenti are in the race no matter how attractive; ditto Mozart’s K545, or Beethoven’s pair of sonatas Opus 49. Many of rest are up for debate, though I have to say that I think that there is no ‘best sonata’ in the case of these three composers (and everyone else once you’ve removed the chaff), and searching for it is like trying to find the end of the rainbow; favourites is an entirely different debate. You can however use alternative adjectives to ‘best’ and make a case of Hob. XVI:52 being his most substantial, most technically difficult, innovative, or whatever sonata. Additionally, in Haydn’s case, it’s apples and pears when trying to compare the A flat sonata (Hob. XVI:46) of 1768 and the c minor (Hob. XVI:20) of 1771 with something like this much later E flat sonata (Hob. XVI:52) of 1794 or the f minor Andante con variazione (Hob. XVII:6) of 1793. (All four of these keyboard works would be part of the ‘Haydn’s best/greatest keyboard piece’ discussion). All that said, this is *a* truly great and radically innovative piano sonata, and an unqualified masterpiece.

[@PTCello]

Every Sonata is Haydn’s best sonata

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

⁠​⁠@@PTCello This comment is unhelpful as it is very misleading as explained in my longer contribution to this thread (‘separating the ‘wheat’ from the ‘chaff’); similarly with Mozart, of his seventeen piano sonatas, perhaps three are great works, with a further six being better than the remaining eight. In the cases of both Mozart and Haydn, not *every* sonata is the ‘best’, as some are clearly better than others; in Beethoven’s case, generally speaking he is more consistently good with thirty great sonatas, and only the oddity of the pair of Opus 49 sonatas and the juvenile three WoO 47 being conspicuously not up to par.

[@erezsolomon3838]

​@@elaineblackhurst1509 name 3-5 Mozart sonatas that are relatively inferior, and state your reasoning

[@johnm5928]

Idk what Haydn was thinking, but a Doritos commercial between measures 18 and 19 was uncharacteristic and quite frankly diminished the overall enjoyment of the piece.

[@rebeccakelley6141]

Haydn was truly ahead of his time🤣

[@alexanderreikreik]

haydn did not eat doritos....what you twarkin about ?

[@majimasan1866]

I concur

[@duryi6399]

He got an ad​@@alexanderreikreik

[@VassilikiKravari]

@@rebeccakelley6141 Yes. He was the Teacher.

[@tarikeld11]

Everyone, including me, agrees that late Haydn sounds like Beethoven - now isn't it interesting how Haydn started with inspiration from C.P.E Bach, later developed to an early Beethoven, and Beethoven started the romantic era, inspiring Schumann, Mendelssohn and Brahms? What I want to say it that we can definetely see a smooth transition from Bach to the late Romantic era, and it's just fascinating!

[@zlatan503]

Schumann, Mendelssohn, Brahms to Mahler, R. Strauss, Alban Berg, then to Messiaen and Stockhausen. Am I right?

[@TheGreatMaster77]

Maybe it's that (early) Beethoven sounds like late Haydn, doesn't it?

[@DeeCeeHaich]

​@@zlatan503 every single composer you mentioned is incompetent and stupid.

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

The development of music in the 18th and 19th centuries was neither smooth nor linear. The first Classical composers from around 1740 abandoned almost all the old Baroque practices completely, and the two styles went along - separately - side-by-side for the next 25 years. (Handel, Rameau and Telemann all died some time *after* Haydn’s first symphonies and string quartets). Same really with Beethoven whose first published works were radically different - more so than the received wisdom suggests - from the world of Mozart and Haydn. You are quite right though that Haydn’s composing career from c.1749 to 1804 put him in a unique position, and his later works are from the same mould as Beethoven’s radically evolutionary music.

[@DeeCeeHaich]

@@elaineblackhurst1509 it's completely ridiculous to state that classical composers abandoned baroque music. They completely improved upon in, by building upon its foundations. If you want an example of a group of composers abandoning the music that came before them, look at serialist composers.

[@edouardchan8719]

What a lively person Haydn was

[@gjmallea7775]

I am playing this sonata right now and it is really really difficult, but it is so much fun to play!

[@LocksVid]

It's very difficult to get the sense of direction right, to make the sense of the whole piece as one fluid motion. But this certainly is my favourite sonata from Haydn

[@d.o.7784]

How far are you by now ? 😂

[@julianamejiapianist9961]

Me too, and I’m trying not to die jajajajaj

[@gjmallea7775]

​@@d.o.7784I Managed to record it but I lost the video😭. I did the recording months ago so I barely renember anything from the piece

[@sonofphilip8229]

definitely one where you can hear how Haydn influenced Beethoven. The harmony is daring.

[@johannsebastienbach]

Chromatic scale

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

@@johannsebastienbach Probably the most radical innovation was setting the slow movement in E major following the first movement which had been in E flat major, such a bold move was unprecedented for 1795, but typical of this sonata which is full of experimental tonal relationships. The E major slow movement is actually very cleverly foreshadowed in the first movement development when Haydn works his way to G major, we think c minor is coming, but get E major, which then drifts back to E flat for the recapitulation via a sequence of chromatic slitherings.

[@hyngrixOo]

1ч главная партия 0:10 Связка 0:26 1ая побочная партия 1:00 2ая побочная партия 1:31 сдвиг 1:39 разработка 4:35

[@КсенияСамсонова-р9ю]

Ура, спасибо:) я искала такой коммент

[@ifutureman]

It is crazy how much of a leap forward Haydn took on this one. I only discovered it recently and it was a revelation. His sonatas always seemed to me to be perfectly crafted, but lacking in the melodies that came so easily to Mozart. As others have noted, this sonata feels at times like Beethoven - and not just LVB's earliest sonatas either. I'd love to be able to ask him why he decided to write the middle movement in such a weird distant key!

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

One of the ways I sometimes suggest people consider the ‘melody’ issue is to think of Mozart as being more interested in the sound of the notes, whilst Haydn (and later Beethoven in exactly the same way) is more interested in what he can do with the notes. Almost all Mozart is essentially cantabile in conception, even when he’s writing for instruments; almost all Haydn (and once again, Beethoven as well) is instrumental in conception, even when writing for voices. Mozart is a cantata; Haydn and Beethoven are sonatas.

[@stantlumina]

⁠@@elaineblackhurst1509 I agree completely and it is one of the major attractions I feel towards the music of Haydn and of Beethoven. Both of these composers have a genius for taking tiny musical fragments and building such astounding creations out of them. The continual musical development and exploration of Haydn throughout his long career is miraculous. What a great sonata!

[@shadowjuan2]

Mozart style is greatly inspired by that of Johann Christian Bach, whose melodies are typically more prominent and playful. Haydn style is more inspired by CPE Bach, whose compositions are typically less playful, more serious in tone and exploratory.

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

@@shadowjuan2 Just to continue the metaphors here and linking the contributions of others in this thread, I would suggest that CPE Bach, Haydn, and Beethoven are all *masculine* composers, whilst JC Bach and Mozart are *feminine* composers.

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

@@stantlumina You may find my further recent thought on this matter of some interest.

[@ssvemuri]

Charming. Did not realize Hayden wrote such lyrical melodies. Reminded me of Schobert, Mozart and Beethoven

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

This late sonata both musically and in terms of keyboard technique is on the threshold of Beethoven and Schubert; both musically and technically, it’s on a completely different planet to Mozart, and was written specifically for a big London fortepiano, and to be played in a big public concert hall - so different from what Mozart - dead for 4 years - would ever have known in Vienna for solo keyboard works. Which ‘…lyrical melodies’ reminded you of Mozart, because to my ears, not a note of the entire sonata sounds remotely Mozartian ? (Genuinely interested to know). PS. The sonata is far too powerful and substantial to be labelled ‘Charming’. PPS. Johann Schobert was a composer and harpsichordist who died in Paris in 1767; I presume you mean Franz Schubert.

[@ssvemuri]

@@elaineblackhurst1509 Right from the opening, it reminded me of many of Mozart's piano sonatas. There maybe technical details such as the type of piano or the target audience that situate it in a different time & place, but my comment was about the feel of the melodies & harmonies, not the composer's intentions. Note that I only said it reminded me not that they were identical meaning to convey that it is situated similarly to the aforementioned composers stylistically in my own mind. If you feel differently, that's your prerogative. Music appreciation is highly subjective after all, and yes I was referring to Johannes Schobert who was an inspiration for many of Mozart's early concertos, not the later Schubert

[@ssvemuri]

@@elaineblackhurst1509 BTW I am most definitely not going to shy away from using the word "charming" just because this work sounds "heavy" to you. :) To me it sounds like a song, lyrical and smooth flowing, so it qualifies for that particular epithet, again a very subjective qualis

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

@@ssvemuri Thanks for the interesting responses; the only thing I’d suggest is that I would not describe a single note of Haydn or Beethoven as ‘charming’, in fact the music of very few composers at all - oddly enough, perhaps one or two lightweight pleasantries by Mozart might qualify. Perhaps ‘charming’ for me is tainted by the unintentional put-down in the Amadeus movie where Salieri’s welcome March is thus described.

[@ssvemuri]

@@elaineblackhurst1509 I see where you are coming from. To me Beethoven is the closest thing that comes to God and never in my dreams would I try to belittle his music, and of course I have enormous respect for the other classical greats. But, "charming" is a very positive word for me, it means "having the ability to hold attention, enrapture or captivate", while producing a pleasurable response in the mind. Beethoven's works have a lot of gravitas, but when it comes to the slow movements, I am often "charmed" in the sense referred to here. As another example, Bach is a composer I like and some of his pieces like Toccata-and-fugue are engrossing, but I wouldn't term them "charming" because they don't please me the same way :)

[@user-Uta390]

Спасибо! Очень интересная интерпретация, чем-то напоминает стиль Бетховена.

[@chagkruzart7695]

Тут скорее копируется стиль КФЭ Баха, Клементи. Они в основном и повлияли на Бетховена

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

It’s not particularly Beethoven’s style, but a more modern technique which developed in the hands of a number of contemporary composers like Dussek, Cramer, Clementi and others including Beethoven, and was partly a response to the new much more powerful instruments being developed at the time particularly in England by piano making companies like Broadwood, and Longman & Broderip.* Haydn whilst in England heard many of these new pianos which were very different beasts from those known to himself and Mozart in Vienna (Walter, and Schantz for example), indeed when he arrived in London in 1791, he took rooms in Great Pulteney Street opposite Broadwood’s piano shop and was provided with a room there from which to work (Haydn signed the visitors book). All these factors explain why the three sonatas written whilst he was in England (Hob. XVI: 50-52) are on a rather different scale from those that came before, along with the fact that Hob. XVI: 50 and 52 were both written for public (not private) performance in a concert hall to be played by a professional pianist. So yes, we are foreshadowing Beethoven, but hopefully you - and others - will find this explanation useful as to why that was so. * Haydn went to the trouble of bringing back to Vienna one of these enormous Longman & Broderip pianos from London when he left at the end of his second visit in 1795.

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

@@chagkruzart7695 You might find my longer comment in this thread of some interest, particularly regarding the keyboard ‘style’; regarding CPE Bach (sic*), this sonata has moved some way beyond the older master’s style, and though CPE was the only composer Haydn ever acknowledged as a mentor, there is scant evidence of it here. * Maybe just be a Google translate problem.

[@Маргарита-г6х2ж]

0:11 1 частина allegro 8:29 2 частина adagio 16:11 3 частина presto

[@choward919]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who is thinking of Beethoven! I'm very pleased to know this sonata... thanks for this video... and Brendel is such a master now only if I could play it...

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

Not sure it’s Beethoven particularly, more that whilst in London, Haydn came across much bigger, more modern pianos,* professional players using a more modern technique, and works that were needed for public concerts - often in big halls. All this meant - astonishingly - that the now 63 year-old composer adapted and changed to the new circumstances, and a work like the sonata Hob. XVI:52 is the result. You’re right that Brendel is special in Haydn. * The Broadwood, and Longman & Broderip pianos were some way in advance of those in Vienna, they had bigger keyboards, made much more sound, and had modern foot pedals rather than the old-fashioned knee pedals Mozart and Haydn had been used to previously; it was obvious that a new type of music was going to be composed for these new big beasts as was evidenced most obviously by Beethoven and the next generation, but is also clear in late-Haydn as here.

[@choward919]

@@elaineblackhurst1509 That's a very interesting point! Thanks for taking the time to write that. :)

[@aleksandarjankovski6542]

Heavenly.

[@Elsie.Furman]

0:11 - ГП 0:26 - Связка 1:00 - 1ПП 1:31 - 2ПП 1:39 - Сдвиг 4:35 - Разработка

[@olyaopera]

1:49 закл часть

[@StateGenesys]

Piano Sonata No. 14 in C-Sharp Minor, Op. 27 No. 2 -"Moonlight": 3. Presto by Alfred Brendel

[@kuruczalbert]

Measure 68 and 110; Haydn's best musical humor. It gets me every time.

[@omegads3862]

As good as any romantic composer and Beethoven. Haydn was truly avant garde. The second movement is very introspective.

[@remidemetz5964]

This has been the last piano sonata from Haydn, definitely the apogee of his art in this last sonata, much better than all the others. It looks like the earlier work of Beethoven’s sonatas.

[@wangannie2021]

Yes, I agree

[@LorenzoCianti]

The melodic language of late Haydn is the main source of inspiration for early Beethoven’s production, especially for his first set of Piano sonatas, the six string quartets op.18 and Symphonies nn.1-2. I love the musical osmosis between the teacher and the pupil. Moreover, I find this piano sonata a very refined and well-composed example of mature Viennese classicism.

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

You are quite right that Hob. XVI:52 is an unqualified masterpiece, but as such it is not alone amongst Haydn’s keyboard works so cannot be labelled ‘…much better than all the others’.

[@omegads3862]

It sounds more mature than early Beethoven. It's as good as late Beethoven sonatas. Haydn produced more work on the level of Beethoven. In this works he destroyes the arrogance of romanticists.

[@theShcrunkly]

Your snob is showing ^

[@ultimateconstruction]

2:15 Beet 11 moment

[@richarddrexler9765]

I remember doing a paper in college on Dussek, and how many composers copped stuff from him.

[@PushkaryovVsevolod]

Гениально.

[@DressedForDrowning]

Brendel plays a perfect Haydn.

[@pamelafrancis4476]

Yes, (and although 'comparisons are odious') his Andante & variations in F minor, Hob. 17/6 is peerless.

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

@@pamelafrancis4476 The work to which you refer is correctly the Andante con variazione in f minor Hob. XVII:6. The attempt by publishers like Henle-Verlag to expropriate the work and give it a German title are as inappropriate as they are uninternational. You are quite right, this work is one of the greatest sets of variations of the Classical period.

[@pamelafrancis4476]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/mZLMc32ud7l0mqM@@elaineblackhurst1509 You are referring to this recording.

[@theShcrunkly]

Ah, yes, because art is completely made up of objective views of style

[@Michàel-k2o2n]

Brilliant!!! 🎉😂❤😮

[@예성-z6t]

8:28 16:11

[@Wldlsx]

3:42 ❤

[@pepehaydn7039]

Could Haydn Play this one or simply Wrote it for someone else?

[@klavierpianomusic]

5:34

[@뜽삼이]

Thought it was a part of pathetique 3rd

[@JuanRamónSilva-Piano]

What the hell, I’m scratching my ears. Is the title right? Isn’t this early Beethoven?

[@rudigerk]

Never underestimate Joseph Haydn! 😊

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

Haydn’s father Mathias was a very good and well-respected wheelwright and local magistrate, I’m sure nobody questioned his carpentry skills, but we don’t really know.

[@rudigerk]

@@elaineblackhurst1509 I meant Joseph.. "Papa Haydn" is a familiar Nickname for him, even Mozart called him this way, affectionately.

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

@@rudigerk Maybe he did, but that was a truly special relationship, extraordinary in the history of Western classical composers which bestowed a unique and special right upon Mozart that does not extend to you or anyone else. Today, the term ‘Papa’ is nothing more than a contemptuous patronising nickname used by listeners who have nothing better to demonstrate their erudition than repeating this irrelevant nonsense as though it were some insightful revelation (no other composer is demeaned in this manner). Additionally, there are linguistic differences: an Italian or French child calling their father Papà/Papa, or a German one as well, does not carry the pejorative undertones of the same term in English which is the sense understood in the English-speaking world. The composer name is Joseph Haydn; what’s the problem that we have to give him a silly nickname as though presenting some astonishing new insight that is nothing more than a lazy, hackneyed, and irrelevant cliche about a truly great composer.

[@rudigerk]

@@elaineblackhurst1509 It's called Humor.

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

@@rudigerk Really not sure what humour (sic) has got to do with anything; Mozart and Haydn had an extraordinarily close personal and professional relationship which had pretty much zero to do with making each other laugh (presumably the purpose of humour).

[@Instinct23-uf1rk]

4:34 Smii7y's outro real

[@richarddrexler9765]

Why does this say everywhere that #52 is in E flat? You can see by the score it's in E major. I wondered if there was some other published version transposed down a half step from the edition I have. When I did a search I was confused because all the listings say E flat.

[@mikesimpson3207]

Only the middle movement is in E major, the rest is in E flat major.

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

The move from E flat major in the first movement to E major in the second was an unprecedented radical evolutionary move by Haydn in 1795; if you follow the score, you will notice that Haydn gives a little hint of this outre modulation during the first movement. This remote tonal wandering is of course something that Beethoven picked up big time from Haydn, and then explored it in his own way.

[@mikesimpson3207]

@@elaineblackhurst1509 pretty sure CPE Bach did similar things in his symphonies

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

@@mikesimpson3207 Yes he did, though the jarring E flat to E was unprecedented in 1795 when Haydn did it in Hob. XVI:52.

[@Michàel-k2o2n]

Haydn is Sooo humorous and Witty too!!! 😮🎉😂❤

[@user-tc3wv3ld5r]

9:18 11:12

[@symphonicpoem11]

beautiful

[@user-music-z5p]

16:10

[@Schleiermacher1000]

Triplet in bar 14 could be more rhythmic?!

[@TheModicaLiszt]

Lol

[@theShcrunkly]

It's just another piece, these people need to pay their bills

[@AurumFlavius]

17:18

[@hernanr4348]

Haydn en modo beethoven

[@chagkruzart7695]

Haydn tried to improve sonata form, but it sounds clumsy. Beethoven published his first sonatas 2 years later and those look perfect in comparison with this :)

[@variflex9991]

clumsy for you alone.

[@wellingtondamasio1446]

Yeah I'm sure your majesty would do better than him...

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

Unfortunately your comment (chadkruzart) is a monument to utter ignorance upon the topic it purports to be discussing; it simply demonstrates the fact that an opinion is a judgement not necessarily based on knowledge and understanding. Everyone is entitled to an opinion - however ill-informed; in this case, your point is simply wrong, and in saying so, I am adding my name to a list that would in Haydn’s own time have included pretty good judges like CPE Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven.

[@theShcrunkly]

Still waiting to see your DMA

[@StateGenesys]

Piano Sonata No. 14 in C-Sharp Minor, Op. 27 No. 2 -"Moonlight": 3. Presto by Alfred Brendel

[@theShcrunkly]

Is this meant to be a recommendation? Because he already did the sonata a long time ago

[@김민아-x6v]

9:58

[@익명-f5r7e]

0:12

[@calebhu6383]

6:06

[@TheModicaLiszt]

🫠

[@theShcrunkly]

you...

[@jcl9792]

18:12

[@user-fe7ub6rw3x]

0:11

[@user-tc3wv3ld5r]

0:12