Haydn Symphony No. 82 "l'Ours" | Kammerorchester Basel | Giovanni Antonini (Haydn2032, Vol. 11)

[@pmarq32]

Wow! I woke up to a late Christmas present from Giovanni Antonini and KO Basel! I think this is the first of the "Paris" Symphonies to be released in this series.

[@SuperTinman2009]

Just when you think it has concluded...brilliant! Haydn genius!!!

[@thomassnider6691]

My favorite Haydn symphony. Well done.

[@ssphoto66]

Fantastic performance! I'm so glad to see a new video come out. The Paris symphonies have not been my favorite grouping of Haydn's, but I did grow up with them when I nearly memorized them all many years ago, and I forgot how great they truly are! I love the "false" ending; Haydn's humor showing?

[@JAFRANCAJR]

Bravo!! 👏👏👏👏

[@riverwildcat1]

Best performance I've heard in my 74 years. Energetic and exciting, tender and richly expressive in all the right places. A genius work performed by and with matching intelligence. Merry Christmas, Hannukha, and blessings for all. Best present ever!

[@edwardjacklewis]

For me, only 54 years. At that time, this was my first Haydn Symphony! Outstanding performance!

[@Gigi-w9f3q]

😊😊 o m g Haydn is smileliñg

[@riverwildcat1]

@@Gigi-w9f3q Definitely he's looking down from Heaven and appreciating our enthusiasm and joy we find in his great music. No doubt he and Mozart hit it off really well, had fun, and made each other better. What a great life Haydn had; rescued from the streets by the Esterhazy family who loved his music; lived on their magnificent palace far out in eastern Hungary where he had command of an orchestra and developed an original style; and after decades he goes to Vienna and discovers he's famous all over Europe and Britain; then he becomes wealthy and loved everywhere, especially in London where he lives a long and full life, then dies rich in the arms of his mistress and their son.

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠@@riverwildcat1 Very enthusiastic words, though occasionally a little too enthusiastic. i) Mozart and Haydn had one of the most astonishing and close friendships between any two composers; Haydn’s views on Mozart are very well known, and Constanza Mozart said her husband described Haydn as his ‘best friend’, as did Mozart himself in the very touching Italian language dedication to Haydn of the six eponymous quartets. ii) Parts of Haydn’s life were ‘great’, but others less so, especially as towards 1790 when life as a full-time kapellmeister at Eszterhaza came to an end with the death of Prince Nicholas; the fairytale existence at the magnificent Eszterhaza palace had in fact turned into little more than a prison. You’re right though about Haydn’s originality and the advantages of having his own orchestra, singers, and all the rest. iii) Haydn was not rescued from the streets by the Eszterhazy family with his appointment of 1761. It is true certainly that from being thrown out of St Stephen’s choir in 1749 until the winter of 1752/53 when he became accompanist, and valet to the famous Porpora, he was just about as poor as one could be. However, by c.1755 he was making enough from lessons, playing in church, at Viennese balls, and selling a few keyboard pieces, to pay off some debts; he also was a regular in Baron van Furnburg’s little orchestra at Weinzierl. It was Furnburg who recommended Haydn to Count Morzin in 1757 or 1758 who appointed him Kapellmeister to his little orchestra in Vienna (winter) and Lukavek (summer) for whom he wrote his first symphonies. Haydn was thus secure enough financially in 1760 to make his disastrous marriage - celebrated in St Stephen’s Cathedral no less. Count Morzin virtually bankrupted himself, so Haydn in short was appointed as Vice-Kapellmeister to the Eszterhazy’s on - initially - a three-year contract, at a salary double that he received from Morzin. Haydn received a salary, and/or pension from the Eszterhazys for the rest of his life. iv) Haydn did indeed know that he was well-known throughout much of Europe; the dissemination of his works through publication, and pirated copies surpassed that of any contemporary composer. v) Following his two visits to England, we know that he had, or had had, dealings with as many as six publishers in Britain. Besides London, he did in fact tour extensively around southern England meeting all sorts of people ranging from the astronomer Herschel (which accounts for Slough), to the famous singer Rauzzini (Bath), and many others. Haydn visited the following places besides his main base in London: Oxford Cambridge Slough Evesham Hampton Court Portsmouth Gosport Isle of Wight Winchester Bath Bristol vi) Haydn’s two visits to England in 1791/92 and 1794/95 each lasted about 18 months; whilst he received offers to settle permanently - including from the King - he decided to return to Vienna. vii) Haydn did indeed live to an old age but his Eszterhazy mistress Luigia Polzelli had returned to Italy and re-married; in fact, whilst he wrote to her, sent her money, and left an annuity in his will, I don’t think they saw each other after 1790. Haydn’s long-term interest may have been due to his being the father of La Polzelli’s second son Antonio (1783-1855). viii) Haydn certainly made significant amounts of money during his career, especially when compared to contemporaries such as Mozart, Dittersdorf, Boccherini, WF Bach and many others; he was certainly very comfortable. However the inflation caused by the long-running French and Napoleonic wars ate into that wealth as it did for everyone in Vienna. Hope that’s informative to yourself, and anyone passing by; Haydn suffers more than most composers from regular, routine, and random bouts of factual indiscipline, so it’s hopefully helpful to all to correct the record.

[@ВераКириленко-в6г]

​@@Gigi-w9f3qда, это произведение можно так сыграть, что слушатель обхохочется, мне доводилось.

[@wzdavi]

Amazing performance.

[@lymanmj]

Fine performance! I love the very resonant hall.

[@robertspruijtenburg3625]

This is a fantastic, sweeping performance of what is arguably one of Haydn's most overwhelmingly powerful symphonies. In particular, the first movement of symphony n°82 might well be Haydn's most aggressive symphonic movement of all. The only precursor I can think of is the first movement of symphony n°56, also in C major. I regret, however, that Giovanni Antonini decided to skip the repeat of the second part of the first movement (also on the CD recording, but there the “excuse” might have been lack of space, as the disk already contains more than 80 minutes of music without that repeat), all the more so as he performs both repeats in the last movement, which unbalances the overall architecture of the work. Concerning the “historical size” of the orchestras Haydn wrote for: Antonini's performance uses a total of only 30 musicians: 6 1st violins, 5 2nd violins, 4 violas, 3 cellos, 2 double-basses, 1 flute, 2 oboes, bassoons, horns and trumpets each, plus timpani. The Orchestre de la Loge Olympique in Paris boasted some 40 violins and 10 double-basses but, has H.C. Robbins Landon adds: “... the [Paris] symphonies were certainly composed with the more modest resources at Haydn's disposal in mind” (“The Symphonies of Joseph Haydn”, p. 113). Be that as it may, Antonini's orchestra of 30 produces some terrific noise, and is perfectly adapted to the hall, and this was the main practical rule as a matter of course in Haydn's and Mozart's time. And, looking at the choir of the Basel Martinskirche, there would have been no space for a larger orchestra anyway. To my ears the recorded sound in the Basel Martinskirche has too much resonance, with the consequence that the sound balance in loud passages is too much in favor of the winds and that some details in the strings get blurred, e.g., in the 1st movement, bars 8 to 10 (and parallel places in this low register), the first violins are barely audible, as are, in the 4th movement, the characteristic four descending eighth notes of the 1st violins in bar 126 and the trill in bar 163; in bar 257 the 1st violins curiously disappear completely (the same issues appear also on the CD recording which, however, was made at another venue: a kind of city hall with a rather low ceiling where the acoustics might have been over-saturated by the power of the music). I would like to point out two instrumental details. First, regarding trumpets and horns Haydn's autograph (Bibliothèque Nationale de Paris) clearly specifies “2 Corni in C o Clarini”, i.e. two horns OR two trumpets. I've checked 25 recordings, including Antonini's, and ALL conductors with only two exceptions discard Haydn's indication "o" (or) and play with both horns AND trumpets. I wonder why? The only exceptions are Douglas Boyd with the Orchestre de Chambre de Paris (2020) and Neville Marriner with the ASMF (1981) - with the latter, however, I'm not quite sure. I asked Giovanni Antonini why he, like most other conductors, had chosen to use both horns and trumpets. His answer was, with a smile: “Because we like the noise!”. He added, however, that he hadn't had the horns and trumpets always play simultaneously, but sometimes alternatively. The way the concert has been filmed, this, however, cannot be seen, and I cannot hear this either (neither on the CD recording), mainly because the C basso horns (for this see below) aren't very well audible. Regarding the second instrumental issue: Haydn didn't specify if in n°82 the horns in C have to be alto or basso: the autograph just says “2 Corni in C”. Curiously, in all his writings H.C. Robbins Landon advocates horns in C alto for n°82, but I wonder on what grounds - not on the autograph in any case. Conversely, for n°69, also in C major, he advocates horns in C basso for no better reason, but in that case we don't have the autograph. The only C major symphonies for which, according to the autographs, Haydn explicitly requires both horns in C alto AND trumpets are n°56 and n°90. Among the 25 recordings of n°82 which I've checked C alto horns are used only in eleven: Dorati, Harnoncourt, Leslie Jones, Marriner, Charles Dutoit, Douglas Boyd, Hidemi Suzuki, Sigiswald Kuijken, Ernst Märzendorfer, Bruno Weil and Norrington (in these last three versions the horns are too much in the background and barely audible and they are covered by the trumpets), all the others, including Antonini, use horns in C basso. However, it's surprising to what extend C alto horns improve the clarity of the entire orchestral texture: in most recordings, also Antonini's, the C basso horns are often difficult to hear. However, the prevalent doctrine among musicologists is that in the presence of trumpets the horns are to play C basso (with the documented exceptions of n°56 and n°90). However, in another context James Webster coined the phrase “The proof of the musical pudding is in the hearing”. But in this particular case, when I raised the question with him, he was adamant to stick with the doctrine. In contrast, in a conversation about this issue with the eminent and very erudite natural horn-player Anneke Scott her response was very clear: “There are no such rules, each case has to be considered on its own” - both statements (J. Webster and A. Scott), by the way, concerned horns in B flat as well (we will come back to that in the context of symphony n°98 a few years down the road). For my part, “the proof of the musical pudding” is quite clear: C alto horns sound SO much better! In this sense I agree with H.C. Robbins Landon's unsubstantiated preference. The recording which gives the C alto horns their most impressive prominence is, surprisingly, the one of Charles Dutoit with the Sinfonietta Montreal (probably from the 1970-ies or 1980-ies, available on Naxos Music Library). Second best are those of Douglas Boyd (without trumpets), Dorati (an otherwise acerbic recording), Hidemi Suzuki and Harnoncourt. The latter's recording, by the way, is the one in which the C alto horns and the trumpets can best be heard separately. The reason is that Harnoncourt has the trumpets play with a peculiar sharp, “military” tone. On all the other recordings the C alto horns and trumpets tend to blend (C alto horns and C trumpets play at the same pitch). A few remarks concerning the second movement: Symphony n°82 is one of four among Haydn's symphonies which don't have a true slow movement, but an Allegretto (the other ones being n°62, n°85 and n°100; the 2nd movement of n°63 “La Roxolane” is even marked “Allegretto [o più tosto Allegro]”!). This was one of Haydn's many visionary concepts which led, among others, to the “Allegretto” second movement of Beethoven's 7th symphony (the 2nd movement of his 8th symphony is marked “Allegretto scherzando”). I've already written at some length about these fast “slow movements” in the context of symphony n°63 “La Roxolane”. In comparison with the outer movements the variations of the second movement of n°82 may seem lightweight (fittingly no trumpets and timpani), but as a compensation for the relentless and sweeping power of the first and last movements it needs this kind of relaxation. In this performance, however, the variations aren't lightweight by any means but, quite the contrary, extremely energetic. Remarkably, Antonini succeeds in keeping the tempo constant all through (as was the rule in the Classical style), in spite of the various characters of the individual variations. Please also note, on the part of Haydn, the subtle and delicious variation of scoring in the course of the variations, in particular as regards the winds. Antonini finds a nice swift tempo for this movement: 92 to the quarter note (crotchet), equaled only by Bruno Weil with Tafelmusik, but even surpassed by Douglas Boyd at 96 to the quarter note (Orchestre de Chambre de Paris) and Thomas Fey at 100, the latter tempo being slightly over the top. A few remarks concerning the third movement: Haydn doesn't specify “Allegretto” for this Minuet, so the question is if it is a moderately paced “Tempo di Menuetto” or rather a “Menuetto Allegretto”. In any case, to me Antonini's performance came as a surprise because up till now I had considered the minuet of n°82 as one of the (few) examples of a “true” courtly minuet among Haydn's symphonic minuets (one other being the one of symphony n°6 “Le Matin”: please refer back to my comment there). However, Antonini takes it at his “standard” 63 to the whole bar (on the CD recording, surprisingly, he is somewhat slower at 58 to the whole bar), and yet one can (I can) clearly hear it as a one-in-a-bar movement. On the other hand, there are continuous quarter notes (crotchets) running through almost the entire movement, which make it easy to hearing the piece as three-in-a-bar as well, although a very fast one: 174 to the quarter note. Anyway, it's a long way from the stately, courtly minuet as e.g. Dorati and Märzendorfer view it at 126 to the quarter note (Leslie Jones, Thomas Fey, Bernstein: 120; Adam Fischer, Marriner: 132). In these traditional versions it gets difficult to hearing the piece as one-in-a-bar at 42, respectively 40 and 44, to the whole bar. The only other versions I know of which come anywhere close to Antonini's are Douglas Boyd's with the Orchestre de Chambre de Paris (56 to the whole bar or 168 to the quarter note), and Bruno Weil's with Tafelmusik and Harnoncourt (54 to the whole bar or 162 to the quarter note). In any case, Antonini's performance of this minuet is once more a striking proof as to what extent the tempo defines the character of the music (refer to Rudolf Kolisch's famous study “Tempo and Character in Beethoven's Music”): what was allegedly a stately, courtly minuet, is very convincingly transformed into a modern, swift symphonic minuet. What Haydn's intention was, only he knows.

[@_zumaro]

Fascinating reply thanks

[@bobshifimods7302]

When it comes to superlatives regarding Haydn symphonies it's a tricky area. One will change one's mind when in a different mood and there's alway another great performance around the corner. That's the wonder of the man.

[@malcolmabram2957]

The first movement of his 61st symphony, for attacking/aggressive play takes a lot of beating, though it is a matter of opinion of course.

[@alistairkewish651]

From an historically accurate point of view, it is peerless and wonderful to both see and hear. It also knocks the *other faction * clean off the stage. Hopefully, more to follow? Numbers 77 and 83 are waiting patiently.

[@frankavocado]

Beautifully done!

[@joelparshall80]

Bravo! A brilliant lead-in to the Paris Symphonies in the Haydn 2032 project with more to come. Can't wait.

[@arthurtwoshed]

What a fantastic present for the New Year! Greetings from New Zealand.

[@evalinnert7736]

🤷‍♂️🤴etwas zu spät, aber dafür noch besseres Jahr💔Grüße aus Europa

[@robertspruijtenburg3625]

A few remarks concerning the fourth movement: (KZbin didn't accept my uploading of this paragraph at the end of my previous comment). The 4th movement, as the first, has overwhelming power. For the dissonances at the beginning of the development, bars 118-130, and for the brute primal roar of combined bassoons, horns, trumpets and drum roll in the coda, bars 222-235 and 264-279, Giovanni Antonini and Hidemi Suzuki are unbeatable. However, in Antonini's performance at the end the strings get drowned by the winds (also on the CD recording, but not so much in Suzuki's recording) and Suzuki's recording offers by far the most impressive drum-roll (bars 264-272) of all recordings. The reason is that Suzuki is the only one to observe that the timpani are the only part marked “fortissimo” in the score, whereas all the others have just “forte” (this is also quite clear in the autograph).

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

The whole noted with great interest and appreciation as ever; a proper response will appear in due course.

[@vilebrequin6923]

@@elaineblackhurst1509 look forward to it💙

[@pedrovasconcellos4094]

Inspiring comment, but I can't identify Suzuki's performance for this symphony...

[@henrystratmann807]

@@pedrovasconcellos4094 (Due to technical issues Mr. Spruijtenburg has been unable to post a complete response to your comment. He asked me to try posting it, and his response follows below:) “My apologies for this belated response, but I've been unable to post it on KZbin, presumably because I had included active internet links. I've now replaced them by texts you could enter in Google's search section. Unfortunately, Hidemi Suzuki's recordings are difficult to find outside Japan. I've ordered most of them from there. However, N°82 I've found by chance at amazon/de: when you enter „hidemi suzuki haydn symphony 82“ into Google's search section it should appear among the first 10 hits (you may also search for Mozart's symphony n°34, K. 338, which is on the same CD). All of Suzuki's Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven recordings are very stylish and well worth collecting. Moreover, there are several performances of Haydn symphonies with him on KZbin: n°2, n°29, n°57, n°71 and n°98: for n°2 insert "haydn symphony 2 suzuki" in Google's search section for n°29 insert "haydn symphony 29 suzuki" in Google's search section for n°57 insert "haydn symphony 57 suzuki" in Google's search section for n°71 insert "haydn symphony 71 suzuki" in Google's search section for n°98: insert „youtube hidemi suzuki olc#37“ in Google's search section (mind you, anything else doesn't work in this case...).”

[@pedrovasconcellos4094]

@@henrystratmann807 and Robert, I am at a loss for words to thank you both for your detailed and thoughtful response to my enquiry and for sending it. I had long been looking for recordings of Haydn's symphonies with Suzuki conducting, after having found the spectacular performance of n.98. I will follow your instructions. I take this opportunity to say that I have learned a lot from reading your comments, Henry, about Haydn's work, a composer who has been with me since my childhood days. Cordial greetings.

[@markmlinar1511]

Amazing!

[@ЮрийЗаславский-ю5к]

❤ бравоо❤

[@leoperarm]

Excellent performance. Period instrument ensembles too frequently take Haydn too lightly and speedily, especially spoiling his latter symphonies. This was perfect: weighty and graceful

[@ZZHH369]

Bravo Maestro full albom please

[@pietstamitz1]

I never heard the filnale played like this.. and I think it should be played like this: a folk-like wild bear dance, and not too cultivated. This is really "authentic". Bravo!!

[@auvillars]

Quelle énergie !! ❤❤❤

[@pierreguinot9238]

Si c'est "papa" Haydn que j'entends, je prends il maestro Antonini comme médecin. 300 ans c'est toujours bon à prendre !!!

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

Non è ‘papà’ Haydn, è Joseph Haydn; il padre di Haydn costruiva ruote di carro.

[@pierreguinot9238]

@@elaineblackhurst1509 Bien sûr ! Vous avez raison, c'est parce que Mozart je crois et ses contemporains l'appelaient ainsi, affectueusement.

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

⁠@@pierreguinot9238 Hai pienamente ragione, nel settecento lo chiamavano così qualche volta, ma il soprannome oggi è sciocco e irrispettoso per un grande compositore e diminuisce la sua statura. Mozart aveva il diritto di chiamare Haydn ‘Papà’, non abbiamo quel diritto oggi.

[@Anonymus-z3z]

Lo de papá se debe a una subvaloración que se inició con la reseña de la 5a sinfonía de Beethoven escrita por ETA Hoffmann y que dio origen al mito de los clásicos. HAYDN el más grande genio del siglo 18, el compositor más grande de Europa. Nada más que decir.

[@McIntyreBible]

15:26, the Third Movement.

[@McIntyreBible]

19:14, The Fourth Movement.

[@rodrigoherreramunoz9248]

Fantastic performance of this amazing symphony. All this series of recordings are very well played, the only thing that is not pleasant are the little screams of the conductor, that are present in all the videos and can be sometimes very annoying to listen the Haydn´s symphonies.

[@McIntyreBible]

7:45, the Second Movement.

[@carlosvizia2357]

Es notable la obra de Haydn!. Más aún considerando que fue en alguna medida inspirador de Mozart y maestro de Beethoven!.

[@СержБорн-б8о]

Побуждает выпить кружку пива, но только одну🙂

[@ByDesign333]

Shocking, this!😮

[@AmyThorne-j6q]

O snap where did that bear go?

[@pablisimo666]

Remlnds me of mozart’s papageno in magic flute

[@ЮрийЗаславский-ю5к]

❤оуур Гайдн очень очень красиво изумительно❤❤❤

[@MrFiddler66]

(1786) Con la sola eccezione del ciclo del Giorno (n° 6, n°7, n°8), i titoli delle sinfonie di Haydn non sono dell'autore, ma furono il più delle volte inventati dagli editori a scopo pubblicitario, per aggiungere un elemento di interesse o per distinguere le opere più meritevoli. Spesso non hanno alcun nesso con il contenuto, indicando semplicemente una circostanza secondaria, la derivazione della sinfonia da un melodramma o la dedica a un personaggio. Altre volte invece, come nel caso in esame il riferimento è giustificato: nel finale si assiste ad un ballo dell'orso illustrato con arguzia attraverso l'imitazione di strumenti, danze e ritmi da fiera di villaggio. Il finale è pure l'apice di questa sinfonia, nella quale Haydn abborda con forze fresche e rinnovata fantasia la tonalità dei fasti di corte. Trombe e timpani sono infatti presenti, aggiungendo al suono quell'aurea celebrativa di prammatica, in Haydn e Mozart, per le occasioni solenni . Nel IV movimento notiamo l'insistente nota con acciaccatura degli archi gravi , che suscita un suono simile a quello delle cornamuse, quasi un ronzio, e qui si snoda la danza dell'orso, una melodia di chiaro sapore zingaresco. Sorprendente il voltafaccia alla battuta 24. Dopo una ripresa dell'effetto di cornamusa, la musica si arresta su una "corona", poi, di colpo, la nota con acciaccatura passa ai registri alti , violini e oboi, trasformandosi in un grido drammatico che apre altri orizzonti. LDC

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

‘Tempora mutantur’ è forse il titolo di Haydn per Sinfonia 64 - che riferimento al secondo movimento ?

[@MrFiddler66]

@@elaineblackhurst1509 Il significato delle parole che Haydn appose in calce alla partitura, non è chiaro, trattandosi forse di un riferimento ad una rappresentazione teatrale di cui non ci è pervenuto l'argomento. La sinfonia avrebbe dovuto in questo caso servire da musica di scena, ma nulla autorizza a individuare in essa, più che in altre opere dello stesso periodo, intendimenti illustrativi. Non resta che interpretare il motto latino nel senso letterale: Haydn si incammina per una strada nuova, impegna le sue capacità di espressione in una direzione diversa da quella seguita costantemente durante lo Sturm und Drang. Al momento romantico succede una fase di riflessione e di consolidamento stilistico, fase in cui questa sinfonia si inserisce con discrezione, apparentemente ancora legata ad un linguaggio impetuoso, in realtà già partecipe di un equilibrio superiore. LDC

[@mrshovelbottom7475]

14:20 19:15

[@AmyThorne-j6q]

Go away bear do not hurt me.

[@СержБорн-б8о]

А потом закурить, постричь газон🙂

[@luizamsalgado]

Ah ah ah !

[@СержБорн-б8о]

Потом взять помповое ружье и дать залп в вашу честь🥲

[@luizamsalgado]

Wow! Tha's Haydn genius and Joy of Living!

[@McIntyreBible]

15:44, The Third Movement.