He Chose Us: Election & Free Will (Eph. 1:4-6)

Is salvation based on our choice or Yahweh's? Is man's will free to choose or not choose God? In verses 4-6, which we are going to look at this morning, Paul identifies the first two of the many blessings which God has poured out upon His children. These blessings are "election" ("chose," verse 4) and "predestination" (verses 5, 11). To most Christians these doctrines are a cause for protest, rather than praise. But for Paul, they are blessings for which Yahweh should be praised
10/06/2013 - Pastor David B. Curtis - Berean Bible Church - www.bereanbible... - Message# 675
View the transcript: www.bereanbible...

[@shellyblanchard5788]

Jesus said if he be lifted up he will draw all men unto him. So he already has drawn all men unto him.

[@tommycapps9903]

He chose us IN CHRIST THAT WE SHOULD BE! The entire emphasis of this passage is our POSITION IN CHRIST not our Predestination. That doesn’t take away from salvation by grace through faith. On the judgment day what is God going to be doing? He will cast men and women in to hell forever and their was NO WAY they could have been saved in fact God forbid their salvation. Does that sound like the BIBLE? No!

[@bwfreel]

I like your view, the apostolic fathers before Augustine all held to this position. It was only after his teachings were promoted later that predestination became the dominant view. Verses like 1Tim 2:4 & 4:10 say exactly what they say and the Apostles lived their lives as if people really had a choice. If I understand the history correctly this was not even an issue before Augustine

[@93556108]

Dear Sir, I respectfully disagreed with your teaching on Ephesians 1:4 though I am an avid follower of your teachings. You merely stressed on “He (God) have had chosen us” but left out “in Him” (Christ) which is the conditional factor. What is the purpose for them being the chosen of God in this verse? Is it for salvific purpose that most Calvinists are teaching? Since you even remarked and I quote; “the doctrine of election is repulsive as God choose some to be saved and not the rest” implying that you were teaching on the subject matter of soteriology. If that is so, apparently you had erred because those chosen of God were already believers as evidenced by Ephesians 1:3 and 4 as they were believers in Christ and does not need to be saved again. Further Ephesians 1:4b explicitly stated the purpose of them being chosen by God was that they should be holy and without blame and not for salvific purpose as they were already believers. Like in Ephesians 1:5 was directed to believers being predestinate to be adopted as children and not as taught by you that God predestined some (unbelievers)for salvation and to be adopted. You quoted John6:44 and stressed on the word "draw" that no one can come unless the Father draws. How about this verse that stated; (Joh 12:32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. Jesus stated after the cross He will draw all men and not the elect only to Himself though He knew many will not and not could not, come that they might have eternal life signifying human volition as a supporting verse; (Joh 5:40) And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. You cited acts13:48 the gentiles were ordained and also prophesied in the old testament and Ephesians 3:6 that the mystery of God now revealed through apostle Paul that the gentiles was foreordained to be fellowheirs as they placed their faith in Christ. No one who is not the believer of the truth can have evidence that God had chosen him. You quoted acts16:13-14; Whose heart the Lord opened - As she was a sincere worshipper of God, she was prepared to receive the heavenly truths spoken by Paul and his companions; and, as she was faithful to the grace she had received, so God gave her more grace, and gave her now a Divine conviction that what was spoken by Paul was true; and therefore she attended unto the things - she believed them and received them as the doctrines of God; and in this faith she was joined by her whole family, and in it they were all baptized. God dosen't arbitrary chose to open Lydia's heart but she was already worshipped God - That is, she was a proselyte to the Jewish religion as also similar in acts10 concerning Cornelius and his family who feared the Lord and they were given the opportunity by God to hear the gospel through apostle Peter and eventually they were all saved. I don't believed in God's choice to save some and not others. Even these verses affirmed that God dosen't act randomly in choosing people; (Act 10:34) Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: (Act 10:35) But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Yes God chose us that feared Him and worked righteousness, is accepted with Him. I believed in the election of grace and the sovereignty of God and further I am not a Calvinist neither an Armenian, who dosen't propagate eternal security of believers. . Which verse in the bible that stated that God before the foundation of the world placed the name of the elect in the book of life. Please quote the subject verse. Since Calvin taught the doctrine of double-predestination, does your Ministry embraced it as well.

[@weobeyjesus4565]

"Whoever believes is saved." People think believing gets you saved. The truth is, those that God saves believe. They believe they have to obey, hence Matthew 7;23. God resists the proud, he gives grace to the humble. God elects the humble.

[@franvincent2399]

No We do play an important part in salvation!! WEHAVE TO ASK FOR IT OR WE ARE NOT GETTING IT!!!!

[@franvincent2399]

john 6: 44 is for only when JESUS was on the earth!!!! that was only applied to when he was on the earth not after wards!!! AFTER HE ROSE AND WENT TO HEAVEN ALL MAY COME TO HIM AND ALL WHO COME TO HIM HE WILLIN NO WIS CAST OUT!!!!

[@mrgeorge1888]

Wow, maybe you are right, I never thought that. Gbu, brother.

[@lillyofthevalley208]

Understanding is everything!

[@TheTrinityDelusion]

Ephesians 1:4 doesn't say God chose us to be in him. It says that before the foundation of the world God chose US IN HIM to be holy and blameless. Only Christians are IN HIM. The verse says that God chose Christians to be holy and blameless. NO: God chose us to be in him. YES: God chose us in him (Christians) to be holy and blameless. The verse tells us WHAT God chose Christians to be. It does not tell us God chose to be Christians. It's a matter of simple reading comprehension.

[@johnmackinnon7321]

The Trinity Delusion Todah.... Thanks

[@godisnotmocked1345]

There are tons of Scriptures telling us God chose His elect. Do a search on biblegateway for the words elect, election and predestination and give it earnest thought. Also, concerning our free will, it's like God gives us free will within His boundaries. He did that with all of His created beings. The ocean waves (Job 38:11), the demons (Matt. 8:28-32), Pilate (John 19:11), and Satan (Job 1 & Rev. 20:2-7), for example.

[@robertsparks1692]

When I first became aware of this issue of election, free will and god's sovereignty I noticed a few missing distinctions. I was not prepared for the anger I received when I first went to discuss this. When we collapse a distinction we can no longer see a difference between two separate states and trying to explain a distinction looks like semantics. One distinction I saw that was collapsed or missing was, is the Biblical speaker talking about saved or unsaved people? If we don't know that it can get us into textural trouble as there will appear to be conflicting verses and both saved and unsaved become the same. They are not the same and are as different as dead and alive. We get very odd beliefs like total depravity from not distinguishing saved (with Christ) from unsaved (without God). Another missing or collapses distinction was, is the speaker talking to Jews or Gentiles? Many people distinguish this one. The first half of Romans, Paul is talking to elect Jews about salvation and later he's speaking to Gentiles and doesn't bring up election to them but only talks about salvation. So here is what I saw taking into account these distinctions: 1) The Israelites are the elect. 2) No Gentiles are elect. 3) Election is not salvation. 4) UNSAVED man does not have free will but is a slave to sin. 5) SAVED man is a slave to Christ and Christ sets the captives free. 6) salvation is 100% God's mercy. 7) God saves 100% of those who call on his name to be saved meaning God is 100% merciful. 8) All are called but few chosen makes no sense unless called is being drawn by the Word and chosen means accepted by the grace of God. I figured this would be a safe place to talk about this issue without being called names. God Bless you.

[@johnmackinnon7321]

Robert Sparks well done!

[@williamdelacruz3500]

He chose us in him. God's choosing depends IN HIM. When are we in him?

[@mikebellamy]

The difficulty here is from what FRAME of REFERENCE the words are spoken.. God's election is from God's frame of reference.. We can appreciate that and should know about it but we cannot view the world from that perspective.. I am not God. Jesus made it very clear.. I am fully responsible and accountable for my decisions.. from MY frame of reference.. I have complete free will and I will bear the eternal consequences of my decisions.. If you like God chose Judas.. but Judas did not chose God.. and that was his problem.. Esau wept bitterly but it was too late.. So BOTH perspectives are TRUE.. we canot fully grasp this now.. This should not be a surprise.. I do not have all wisdom.. I only see dimly.. if I try to take God's perspective I am doing what Satan tried to do.. what the ungodly world is trying to do.. my sinful self wants to BE GOD.. its the ultimate lie.. me saying I AM.. That is why it is very dangerous to try to take God's perspective.. if I do that it means I am taking the position of being the judge of others and distorts my thinking and ability to LOVE my neighbour. My being made in the IMAGE of God.. means I have been given personal SOVEREIGNTY.. which God will NOT VIOLATE.. therefore I do have complete free will to choose.. The truth will only become clear to me after I go to be with him.

[@johnmackinnon7321]

Mike Bellamy well done Deuteronomy 29:29

[@SalvationStudioZA]

Amen thank you for this 🙏.

[@joyfulpreterist7532]

So why does the word say that God is not willing that anyone should perish

[@SalvationStudioZA]

My will or God's will? Easy, God's will be done, forever and ever AMEN

[@richtomlinson7090]

A personal God given Freewill is absolutely an illusion.

[@johnmackinnon7321]

He chose the nation of Yisrsel to be a light to nations. Deuteronomy 7 Isaiah 42:6, 49:6, Acts 13:46. He doesn't chose favorites. He chose Yisrael for a purpose. not for Salvation. He chose Pharaoh for a purpose, a vessel unto dishonor. study Roman's 11.

[@lmorter7867]

Why does God command that all repent when they are incapable of doing so? How can he justly punish them when they don't do something they are unable to do? That is unjust.

[@kellymoody2264]

Romans 9 answers your question.

[@alexjones2173]

The problem Is with you choosing God for salvation, Is that you enter the kingdom of God with your pride intact,you did it,you saved yourself,which Is a lie,

[@greglindstrom2733]

Proverbs 16:9 A man’s heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.

[@evanu6579]

Greg Lindstrom Pro 3: 5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Pro 16: 9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps. Psa 37: 23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way. Job 23: 11 My foot hath held his steps, his way have I kept, and not declined. 12 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.

[@richardgarcia3562]

Where were the people when they were chosen? In Him or outside of Him? If In Him how did we get In Him? This doesn’t say God put us In Him, but that God chose those In Him..🤔

[@Christ-1]

"He chose us". Why are you reading yourself into the text? What happened to audience relevance? How do you know God wasn't only choosing THEM during the FOUNDING of his church, and not US 2,000 years in the future? It would seem to me that God chose his elect before the foundation of his church.

[@thyslop1737]

the sovereignty of God over the free will of man many sounds almost like the interplay of the workers in the vineyard in Matt 20:1-16

[@nicknofx]

Good sermon, I do have one question though. What about those who are blotted out of the book of life? Is there a difference from the lamb's book?

[@joyceruserious7920]

On this Calvinist idea I disagree. The elect were the first century remnant.

[@joyceruserious7920]

we've been fooled and messed with, it's not at all what we thought...it's more like a mythology of the time with all greek and Roman. gods??????@trevorchinsamypillay576

[@dabcreativeinc]

Awesome message, again, David. Thank you for this. What then of this today-common-church idea of us saving souls? I love these topics. I’m just losing my religion amidst the churchianity of today.

[@verdevalley1966]

does katabole -throwdown refer to the war in heaven and over throw of satan-many believe this ties into first earth age-which is spoken of in 2peter 3:5-Jer.4:23-27- and also ties in Ez.28. could you do a sermon on it Pastor?

[@clintmyrick4128]

Such judgements that have made upon you. I am ashamed pastor for many of these comments below, some perhaps from saints who do not understand. I am finding the experience of Rm 12:3 that I am not to think higher of myself than I ought, but live in the measure of faith that God has assigned me, and as you say, fall on my face in abject praise to my God.

[@joyfulpreterist7532]

I think David can look after himself. He needs all the viewers thoughts on this. You never know he might have a paradigm shift as he did to Preterism

[@Johanna040713]

But, according to calvinism, was the sovereign and forcing election of God based on any criteria of _us_, but in _Him_? So if there's, let's say, a certain tint of eye color that pleases God, would that be an election criterion coherent with calvinism, since a creature has not chosen his/her eye color and can't make a difference in what pleases God? So according to calvinism it could be a genetic trait (that we haven't found yet)? Or was it simply God rolling a dice? Which way do calvinists usually believe?

[@KeepMeLord05]

This is a fair question, I need an answer. Does this Ministry consider themselves Calvinist?

[@P.H.888]

What the murderer?

[@Turn.toJesus]

they are obviously hyper-calvinist

[@KeepMeLord05]

@@Turn.toJesus Thank you.

[@cecilspurlockjr.9421]

This means that one is blessed because one has believed.. HE predestined is to the adoption to wit the redemption of the body.. You're wrong pastor , the condition is " in HIM " ...no where in Scripture does it say one is predestined or chosen to believe.. Wayne is a false teacher as are all calnistist preachers..

[@franvincent2399]

UNLESS WE CHOSE HIM; IT IS NULL AND VOID!

[@EnricoScacchia]

- How do you explain Roman 9/6 and Ephesians 1/4,for example ?

[@DandyRavis]

Matthew 22:13-15 New American Standard Bible (NASB) 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are [a]called, but few are chosen.”

[@pastormarkm]

I would love to see any evidence you have for the works of Paul being written in Hebrew. I have heard one church father said that Matthew was written in the language of the Hebrews, but that is the only mention of NT books being written in anything other than Greek.

[@johnmackinnon7321]

pastormarkm not true, Have You ever heard of "Vatican junk box"?

[@johnmackinnon7321]

pastormarkm sorry not Paul yet. But Luke, John Mark.Evidence has been found!!

[@P.H.888]

It’s All Hebrew From The People, The culture & The thoughts from Genesis to Revelation.

[@williamdelacruz3500]

Try listening to Kevin Thompson. There is no grace in Calvinism.

[@Aquines]

Doomed from the womb vipers in dippers Really this is Gnostics teaching and neo Platonism and Mani which Augustine firstly held too, then decided take up again in order to combat Free will which the early church believed in and also Augustine did until 412 Sorry a study of Augustine would help your reading of Romans and where Augustine reverted to Gnostic beliefs.

[@condoguy710]

so the great commission is a waste of time now since God has already pre determined who is saved and Jesus already returned in 70 AD?

[@DougCameraMan]

Those who have been chosen will respond to the gospel sooner or later, Those not chosen wont come to Jesus. No man knows the chosen, so we are to tell everyone about Jesus and God will do the rest. It may be a hard doctrine to embrace ....that God chooses man instead of the other way around, because men naturally want to believe that we are the deciding factor, but scripture teaches that God is the deciding factor, He is sovereign in all things including our salvation. Every person who loves God and has a desire for salvation in Christ is among the elect. The non-elect never have this love or desire.

[@condoguy710]

Rev. 3:20. If ANY man hear my voice . not men already chosen in some capricious manner. THe Holy Spirit is available freely to anyone now to receive salvation. an individual can change their course, though narrow is the path that leads to salvation.

[@robertsparks1692]

The great commission is ongoing. If we read scripture and take the "elect" to mean an elect "individual" then the great commission was and is a waste of time. If we read all mention of "elect" in scripture as spoken in groups then it becomes clear that what was preordained from before the earth was made is God's Church. His Church was preordained and the elect are those chosen by the grace of God to fill his Church. We are drawn by the Word of God (or not), God choses us from his infinite mercy and we are in his Church. We are his Church so in a sense we (together) were elect from before the earth was formed. However no individual is pre-elected even though they where known by God long before they were born. This issue is a result of failing to distinguish when Paul is talking to a group or when he's talking to one person. I don't think Paul ever just spoke to one person about this issue. People read Romans and other chapters thinking Paul is talking to them as an individual and not them as a family.

[@P.H.888]

DougCameraman & if God by His Own Sovereignty decided to give humans a Will Of their own, then both are compatible together! But if humans don’t have their own will, then God can’t stop them sinning, or choosing, do their own things not Gods perfect will!? That sounds like failure and lack of control?

[@greglindstrom2733]

We couldn't see the extent of "it is finished" the earth quaked and the rock split at the foot of the Cross, Christs blood was released by the Roman soldier who pierced his side. While Six hundred years earlier The Ark of the Covenant was moved.. Solomon prepared for its hiding and Jeremiah moved it precisely under the cross yet future! GOLGOTHA. REVELATION 12. THE WITNESS OF THE BLOOD IN THE STARS.. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. The Rabbi's keep the tablets of stone and the blood (testimony) found on the mercy seat. I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourn for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. ENMITY is what exists now the solution is in the Fathers witness! 1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 10 He that believe on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believe not God hath made him a liar; because he believe not the record that God gave of his Son. For it is by His grace we are rescued, through faith; and this is not of yourselves, but it is the gift of Elohim. (when opened). 9. Not of works, or else anyone glory (in themselves). 10. For we are His creation who are created in Y'shua the Mashiyach for good works which Elohim has before prepared for us to walk in. 11. Wherefore be mindful that you formerly were carnal Gentiles; and you were called the uncircumcision by that which is called the circumcision of which is the work of the hands in the flesh. 12. And you were, at that time, without the Mashiyach; and were aliens from the Devarim of Israel; and strangers to the covenant of the promise; and were without hope and without Elohim in the world. 13. But now, by Y'shua the Mashiyach, you who before were afar off, have been brought near by the Blood of the Mashiyach. 14. He is Himself our peace, who has made the two (become) ONE

[@MariusVanWoerden]

An elephant and a mouse walked on a wooden bridge. “Wow!!!” Said the mouse to the elephant: “Do you hear how much noise I’m making.” Calvin was one of the Greatest theologians who ever lived not because of himself but God made him great. Those saying Calvinism is not Biblical. What they mean is: I know what the correct doctrine is better than Calvin“ Like the mouse is speaking to the elephant. They proudly say: "We have a free will to either reject the Lord or accept the Lord” It is good to know a bit of History. It was a time that very few or almost non knew anything about Biblical Faith. Latin was the linguist that the church conducted the services in. So the people were saying meaningless prayers and could not understand a thing that was said. Prayers were to Mother Marry and other saints, This because you could not pray directly to God The Father or Jesus. You needed an intercessor like a saint and special the mother of God. For forgiveness of sin indulgences could be purchased. Salvation was by works of our own. With other words grace had to be earned with good works and confession was needed at least ones a week. Martin Luther went every day because of his burden of Sin. On 31th October 1517 the day before all saints day when all people came to church the Monk Martin Luther nailed the 95 theses on the door of the: “Slot Kirche at Wittenberg” Germany; against the indulgences. The effect of this was not a Work of Human power. Martin Luther did what ever was humanly possible even hurting him selves to do penitence for his sins. One of the few who understood salvation in the Catholic church was Vicar General of the Augustinian friars in Germany, who supervised Martin Luther during a critical period in his spiritual life. Martin Luther himself remarked, "If it had not been for Dr. Von Staupitz, I should have sunk in hell." Von Staupitz said to Martin Luther: “Martin, Martin, Not your wounds but the Wounds of Christ." Luther started to more read the Bible than works for his salvation. On Gods appointed time Luther read from Romans 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.” Luther’s 95 theses were the begin of the reformation which swept all over Europe. Calvin, Zwingly, John Knox. and many many more all independent from each other, even Italy although for a shorter time than other Countries. Calvin wrote only once a letter to Luther which Melanchthon a student of Luther never gave to Luther because Calvin criticized Luther for keeping too much of Catholicism. Millions came to the Lord after hearing the Word of truth. Small and large parish churches turned to the New Doctrine the Reformation. Priest in thousands of places started to preach the true Gospel message in the Linguist people could understand. It was clear as day not a work of men. The magnitude of it could only be a work from the Lord. This also started Satan’s murder machine of the Inquisition. Thousands would not give up their faith and were burned alive at the stake instead of denying their faith in Christ alone. John Calvin a law student at the University of Orléans joined the cause of the Reformation. In 1536, In a time of darkness in all churches, God called him to write and teach the people special church leaders. He opposed the teachings of the Roman Catholic church in a Biblical way. Special Faith instead of Works. God used his teachings to spread the truth all over Europe and beyond. Now Mike Winger and S Anderson and a lot of others are going to oppose the Work God once did by calling it not scriptural. They cannot even stand in the shadow of Calvin. The Bible teaches us Justification by faith opposed to works. You have to see this as a court-room with a judge. In this heavenly court God The Father is the Judge. This Judge is not going to call the guilty not Guilty because He is a Righteous Judge. when The guilty is standing before the judge Christ steps besides him, and says: "Father recon it to Me what he has done." Now the Judge says All has been paid and punished. You can go free. This is truly happening, in our conscience; we are set FREE. Justification is a work of God the Father and the Holy Spirit in us and without us. Justification and faith do not have a sequence in time but in order Faith- Justification but are simultaneously in time. Sanctification is a work of The Holy Spirit in us but not without us. Justification and sanctification cannot be separated. There is no sanctification without justification or justification without sanctification, this even when sanctification is just a begin of regeneration through all our life. Faith is by Grace and the free gift of God. Martin Luther said: “this gospel blessing will be for one generation before Satan will attacks it heavily.” One generation after Luther; Arminius came with his damnable heresy denying Romans 3 the Total depravity of men. Which is the root of all heresies and goes together with denying the supremacy of God. Predestination is a biblical doctrine, You see, without predestination, you would have no Bible. The Word is Eternal!! Judas was predestined to betray the Lord. Abram was chosen out of Ur of the Chaldeans (Gen. 12). Israel was chosen out of all the nations of the earth (Deut. 4:37; 7:6-8; Ps. 105:6). A new Israelite remnant was chosen after their exile (Isa. 41:8-9; 42:1; 43:1-7; 44:1-2; 45:4). Jesus taught predestination (Matt. 11:25-27; 13:11-16; Mark 4:11-12; John 6:37, 66; 10:26-30; 14:1; 17:6, 9, 11-12). The Apostles taught predestination (Rom. 8:28-39; 9-11; Eph. 1; Phil. 1:6; 2:13; 1 Peter 2:5-10). Predestination is a biblical doctrine, Should we try to be more righteous than God by denying the election from eternity. Predestination was not from Calvin but from the Bible. It was preach all over Europe following the Reformation independent from Calvin. Jonathan Edwards a Reformed Calvinist preached a sermon: “ Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God” not one eye in the Church was dry. It was the start of the Great awakening in the US

[@robertsparks1692]

One last thought. Paul never addresses one person when talking about the elect. He is talking to many people. That's another missing distinction in understanding the elect from before the earth was made. Paul is speaking to the elect en-mass and never implies personal election. God pre-ordained his Church with Jews and Gentiles both but not Steve or Jane. It's a massive mistake to think that Phil Smith was preordained to be in God's Church from before the world was made and there's no evidence in scripture for that. It's a missing distinction. So the missing distinctions in this video are: Saved vs unsaved, one vs many, elect Jews vs Gentiles and election vs salvation. I'm no Biblical scholar and will appreciate educated conversation on these matters. I have been made aware of many verses that support many sides to this issue and so far I have not found a verse that when these distinctions are applied, end up meaning personal election. It also becomes clear that we do not ever have free will but rather unsaved man is not the Will of God but rather the will of flesh (sin) and saved man becomes the Will of God. A good way to see what a Biblical speaker intended is to place yourself in the audience.

[@robertsparks1692]

DougCameraMan Are the names in the book of life the elect? Lets look. Revelation 3-5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. If elect individuals can be blotted out of the Book of Life it doesn't look good for your interpretation of what elect are. This verse also speaks about the ones who conquer. What is conquer? Are those the faithful in Christ? I think so. The elect supposedly don't need to do anything much less conquer. What if they don't conquer? Could this verse not be talking about the elect? Lets keep looking. Revelation 13-8 and all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain. But there it looks like some people were never written into the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. So far we have people not ever written into the book of life and some being written out. I can't call those being written out "elect". It seams "elect" might not mean saved after all. Lets keep looking. Rev 20-12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who ... This verse says all the dead are being judged by books. While the BOL is opened the verse doesn't say if they are being judged by it. I'll assume they are so they are in the BOL and being judged. The elect are being judged with others? It's hard to say from that verse. Lets keep looking. Psalms 69-28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living; let them not be enrolled among the righteous. Again there are people being blotted out of the BOL. Lets keep looking. Exodus 32-32 But now, if you will forgive their sin-but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written.” 33 But the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot out of my book. Wow, God is talking about elect Israel here. Not Egyptians. So we have people never in the BOE and others being blotted out. That's why I say election is not a guarantee of salvation and there is no connection to salvation. If that's the case then being "elect" is almost meaningless unless it's just a Hebrew catch phrase for Israelite. Those who have and carry the Word and promises of God. The only way these verses make any sense together is if being elect has nothing to do with salvation. It looks like an elect is an Israelite and they can be written out of the BOL and an unelected Gentile can be written in. So who was preordained to be saved since the foundation of the earth? No one. The Book of Life ends up only containing those who follow the lamb of God. We see elect coming and going from the Book. That means that the elect are all those who end up in God's preordained Church.

[@robertsparks1692]

***** Lets look. I hope you appreciate the complexities of this :-) There are many passages and all of them need to be put through the 5 W's test (who, what, where, when, why). To the 5 W's I'm going to add, is the scripture directed at saved or unsaved people (that makes a big difference)? It get's really interesting when we have to also determine which mission Jesus is referring to when he speaks of himself. Is he speaking pre physical birth, present mission or future mission and is he speaking about the kingdom of heaven or the kingdom of God? We can start by looking at some generic words like "called". It should be easy right? It's not. We can look at "Called" as being called by the Word of God. The Word existed from before the foundations of the world. Being called by the Word of God could be being called from before the foundations of the world. John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Jesus is the Word of God and is God but are we called by the Word of God? John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.” This signifies that it isn't the Word that draws someone to the Word (Christ). It's the Father. Is being called the same as being drawn? In his walk on the earth, Jesus called many to him but many turned away and they even killed him. I can call you but you may not come but if I draw you to me you will be drawn to me. Is Jesus saying that no one can answer his call unless the Father draw him. I think it's obvious. What isn't obvious is that everyone is called by the Word. The Word is the call, the Father draws some to answer the call. All will be drawn by the Father and not all that are called will be chosen. Matthew 22-14 "For many are called, but few are chosen.” (in regards to the kingdom of heaven). So it's real clear that you can be called and not be chosen or you can not respond to the call. If as I suspect the "call" is the Word of God from before the foundations of the world then it makes sense because Jesus (as the Word) called many to repent and many didn't and the Bible as the Word of God is denied by many today. So called doesn't always mean you will answer or be drawn. Lets look at some of the passages on the list you provided. John 15:16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.". So Jesus chose people and appointed that they should bear fruit. This "choosing" is different from "calling". God can and does choose people for tasks. He did it in the Old Testament as well. The BIG question is does God choose every aspect of everyone's life including someone's salvation from the beginning of time? Lets keep looking. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 "But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth." Salvation is in God's hand (not ours) and God chooses all he saves. The question is when was that choice made? God made the choice to save mankind before he even made mankind. The question is did he choose individuals for salvation or choose the system of salvation and communion? Also note that God chose people "through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth." So they were sanctified by Christ and believed in Christ. Isn't that Christianity? This choosing seems to take place after sanctification through Christ. Lets keep looking. Romans 8:28-30 "And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." OK this brings up a lot of questions and we have to apply the 5 W's to it. In Romans 8 Paul is speaking to Jews (not Gentiles) and we have to determine if "Elect" and "Israel" are interchangeable. I made the case that they are interchangeable but also that it has nothing to do with salvation. God seems to have chosen an elect people from before the foundations of the world were set (the Israelites) to carry his Word. When Paul is speaking to Gentiles he never calls them Elect. Paul is speaking to Elect Israelites. "And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good" For those who love God, OK so it doesn't work that way for those who don't? Not all Elect Jews love God and not all Elect Jews will be saved. "for those who are called according to his purpose." We are back to called again only this time it's people who are called to do God's purpose. Who are they? Again it's elect Israel. Can they turn away from this calling? You bet. Israel has turned away from this calling many many times in it's history. This is consistent with being called. "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." For those whom he foreknew? Doesn't God foreknow everyone? "he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son" God does foreknow everyone so does this mean everyone is predestined to be conformed to the image of his son? If we use the 5 W's we can eliminate Gentiles from that list because Paul is speaking to elect Jews here. We can also eliminate Jews who don't answer God's call. Paul is addressing religious Jews who are answering God's call and love him. "in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers" The brothers are the Jews. It looks like God predestined some Jews to be first fruits in Christ. God predestined a people (the Nation of Israel) to carry his Word and he also predestined that some of them will be firstfruits in Christ. But there is no reason to believe that any individual Jew or Gentile is being addressed. Paul is speaking to elect and faithful Israel. It's clear. Since Paul is speaking to a group from the Nation of Israel we must look at his worlds with that in mind. Now it gets interesting. "And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." Who did God predestine to be the first fruits? Some of Israel. So the "Those" are some of Elect Israel. It was always in the plan from before the foundations of the earth were set that some of the Elect would except Jesus first and that has happened. Paul is excitedly telling the Elect exactly this. It's getting late and I'm going to relax a bit before bed. I hope if nothing else this makes you think about how rich scripture is and how not to take it lightly. As you know I'm changing gears with my theory and starting to examine the Christian aspect to it. The Calvinists come to mind because I find Calvin to be one of the worst interpreters on scripture I have ever seen to the point of being anti-semitic in his readings. It's as if he wiped clean any Hebrew context and replaced it with a Gentile context that didn't exist at the time of the writing of the NT. So your question strikingly comes at the perfect time. I realise that I am entering a very dangerous subject and one that will anger many Christians but I don't believe the Lord had me uncover the delusion for people who can't see it. What's the point of that? I think the reason lies within Christianity itself. The atheists were just good practice. Now I have to delve into the issues in the church. People are leaving in droves and new people are coming in whose spirits aren't being fed properly. We need to look at ourselves.

[@robertsparks1692]

***** I don't think it's an accident that you are questioning the same things. Calvinism is a symptom of something. I see the same kind of blindness that atheists show and Calvinists don't seem to (I hate to say this) have a loving Spirit or know God in any way other than intellectually. I don't want to pick on Calvinists because it's a repentance issue that can effect any unrepentant Christian and I saw that long before I had my denial of God delusion theory. Any Christian who has not repented I suspect is under the delusion. Repentance is a change of mind and that probably includes changing your mind from sourcing your beliefs to sourcing God. If that's true then that explains a lot. That you are getting something from this is encouraging to me. I see no reason for me to have a theory on people who deny God if it can't be seen by the people doing the denying (atheists). If this can make a difference with Christians then I understand why I was shown it. Throughout my investigation of my theory I trusted God totally. Imagine my sadness when I realised it was pointless to help atheists. Apparently I didn't have the same agenda that God did for my theory. I'm just going to trust God and see where he takes me with this. I don't know why you accepted Calvinism before and don't now. You tell me. This was not one of the predictions of my theory and is something unexpected. My theory predicts that if you can see it then your are sourcing God as truth. The mechanism is too buried under contrary beliefs to see otherwise. You must be sourcing God as Truth. There's your answer but I don't know how it happened. You may have been sourcing God as truth the whole time but also being influenced by people who weren't. You have to tell me what happened. When I say "You have to" I really mean it. I can't find out any other way. It's your experience. I never get the chance to discuss this with other Christians in my life. I see them on Sunday. All my closest and oldest friends are atheists. I was an atheist for 39 years. I don't have any Christian friends. God pulled me out of the Lions den but I was a Lion myself. What I can tell you is I was never going to be a Christian so I know God chooses people and intervenes for specific things. God chose Paul on the road to Damascus. What he chose me for I can only guess at this point. All I can say is that I will be faithful and follow him wherever he goes. I have no idea where this will end up. I suspect it won't be easy especially since it looks like I might have to deal with the state of the church today. I don't have experience with the church. My experience is with secularism and humanism. I'm a newcomer to the church. Who am I to say anything? When I was confronting atheists I had some credibility because I was one for so long. I don't even know what all the Christian denominations are about. I trust God. Wherever he directs me is where I will go even though I don't know why. I guess I'll find out when I go.

[@robertsparks1692]

***** It seems your comment was removed as spam. Someone here doesn't like our conversation. PM me.

[@robertsparks1692]

You are certainly logical about Calvinism and brought it to a logical conclusion in spite of how controversial it would be. The idea that God controls every aspect of our lives is hilarious and Calvinists should read what you wrote. Of course, it makes no difference what you do or say, how much you sin or not, who you kill, hate, love, or even what you think of God because as Calvinists believe, God made you do it. Calvinism is proof that intelligence overpowers context and creates it's own. Lot's of very smart people believe in Calvinism because it is a product of the human mind. You have to think Calvinism into existence. It's a shame that Calvinists aren't smart enough...as you are...to recognise where Calvinism ends up. It's an absurd idea. When I read the Bible, I found a thread of responsibility running clear through the Bible. Calvinism removes personal responsibility as you have noted.

[@acutelogic2353]

Yes, He chose us....just as he chose the Jews. But by chosen, I believe He means a body of believers He has called to represent Him to the World. 1) It is important to differentiate between a group(or nation) and individuals within that group. The Jews were chosen as a people, to be God's people, to represent Him to the nations of the world. But, being chosen as a people or nation did not preclude them from being judged and/or destroyed as individuals, Eli's sons, Saul, false prophets, etc. Nor does it preclude the entire people to be excluded, or small number to be reserved, such as Joshua and Caleb who alone were allowed to enter the promised land from all who refused to enter at Kadesh Barnea. Do you believe that all of God's chosen people, the Nation of Israel, were saved without exception? I don't think so, and neither does Paul.Christians are God's now Chosen People, to represent him to the World. It is the Group that is Chosen, NOT the individual. Can God make exceptions to His norm? Of course. But just because He made the Red Sea part and the water to wall up, doesn't mean that is how he normally interacts with man and nature. "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for His possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of the One having called you out of darkness into His marvelous light," Here Peter states that Christians, from many different nations, are now considered ONE PEOPLE, one race in Christ, a HOLY NATION, just as the Jews had been before they fell, before they rejected Christ. Notice he is talking about them as a GROUP, as all the individuals combined into that royal priesthood and constituting a holy nation. YOU are called to become a part of this called out group or nation called Christians. 2) You state that "for many Christians, these doctrines are a cause for protest rather than praise". I think you are mistaken. They are not protesting the doctrines so much as how you(or perhaps more appropriately, how Calvin, Beza, et al defined those doctrines). You imply that these doctrines are plainly understood, and yet most who hold that these doctrines are so self evident and easily understood, contort and twist a thousand other scriptures with plain simple language to mean something else than that plain understanding would mean. For example, John 3:16 Calvinists state the World doesn't mean world, but only the elect. That whosoever believeth in him doesn't mean whosoever, but only the chosen, that Jesus didn't die for the whole world but only those elect. No one who was not already indoctrinated with Calvinism would ever interpret the simple words of John 3:16 that way.

[@michaeljohnson6463]

You say that individuals are not elect but a group of people. That is fair, but what about 2 John when he addresses the elect lady?

[@acutelogic2353]

@@michaeljohnson6463 Hello Michael. If you read my post near the bottom of part one, you will see that I said... " It is the Group that is Chosen, NOT the individual. Can God make exceptions to His norm? Of course." The Apostles were all chosen. Jesus said, "have I not chosen you twelve, yet one of you is a devil?" And Jesus Chose Paul, personally, while Paul was on the road to Damascus to persecute Christians. So, yes some are chosen personally, like the Apostles. After all, God was ushering in a profound break in the history of the world, so radically different that our time even splits human history from the beginning of that time, at Christs birth, BC and AD. But, those are the rare exceptions. Even then, it does not mean that the Chosen will stay chosen or elect, such as Judas, or virtually all Jews who were called the elect or the Chosen people. As for 2 John specifically, I don't believe he(John) is referring to an actual LADY. I believe he wrote this Epistle near the end of the first century AD, and the Church was already being persecuted, and the Elect Lady is a euphemism for a specific church, and it's children(parishioners). At the end of the Epistle, John writes "The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen." I believe that John here is greeting that church from a sister Church and it's parishioners(whom he does not wish to name, for their safety, but knows that they will know of whom he refers. If you look at all 13 verses of 2 John, they appear a bit cryptic,(esp vs 12), much like when he refers to Rome as Babylon in Rev, as I believe Peter does in 1 Peter 5:11 also. 4 "And Jesus answering said to them, `Take heed that no one may lead you astray," and 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved;" Mathew 24:4,13. I wish I could highlight those two verses!! It is those that endure to the end that are saved. Anyway, Michael, I wish you well in your search for Truth. If you have any other questions, I'd be happy to try to answer them.

[@johnmackinnon7321]

John 1:12-13 ?

[@BereanBibleChurch]

See his sermon on that section here - kzbin.info/www/bejne/oHPaeXZnd5x6bZo

[@evanu6579]

John MacKinnon I believe that John is saying that even the Gentiles could become the children of God.... Jhn 1: 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Rom 9: 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 ¶ As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 30 ¶ What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

[@frankcave6728]

Free Will equals self righteousness. There is only one who is righteous on His own and that is God. Predestination and Grace go hand in hand. So if God made us this way then how can He blame/judge us? God is perfectly Just when He destroys someone who He created for destruction. God is perfectly Just when He condemns someone that He created for condemnation. God does all these things according to His perfect plan to glorify Himself. God created some for honor and some for dishonor therefore God is perfectly Just when He destroys those whom He created for dishonor. God is in control and He is perfectly Just in all that He does. Romans 9 as well as many other references in God's word shows us these truths. Also note that Romans 9 was not Paul's ideas he wrote down. Romans 9 is Paul quoting Isaiah and Jeremiah as well as other old testament scriptures. Study the whole counsel of God. But even if you can quote every verse in the bible it still takes God regenerating you with a new heart to understand any of it. Jesus told the Pharisees and their lawyers that they knew absolutely nothing about God and He was absolutely right. If anyone could make a righteous decision on their own then Christ died in vain because we would not need Christ to save us from ourselves. The only way that anyone can go against the Will of God is if it is God's Will that they do so. Therefore God's Will is always done. Pharaoh was a perfect example of this. Mankind will not share in God's glory whatsoever for salvation or good works on judgment day. One of the biggest lies of those who hold to salvation by free will is that those who believe in Election are boasting about our salvation when in reality we boast in Christ alone. It is the Armenians who are boasting in themselves like the Pharisees did.

[@tommycapps9903]

Free Will is not self righteousness! That is the most ludicrous thing I have ever read! Free Will is self responsibility. Being judged by God for what WE did or did not do is the ENTIRE bases for there even being a Judgement Day for sinner AND saint! Mankind is responsible for his own sin and will be judged according, Rom.14:10, 14:12, 1 Corithians 3:13-14, 2 Cor. 5:10, Revelations 20:11-15, and Rev. 21:8. So ???Is