Healthy spirituality & overcoming nihilism (with ​⁠

Britt Hartley is an atheist spiritual director and LITERALLY THE BEST TIKTOKER UGH. We talked about stuff like surviving mixed-belief relationships, sexism in spirituality, becoming comfortable with death, nihilism, depression, the illusion of free will, and obviously Grammay Award-winning band, Weezer.
Britt’s channel: / @nononsensespirituality
Britt’s book, ‘No-Nonsense Spirituality”: amzn.to/3ZpyqB4
SUPPORT THE CHANNEL ⬇️💜
Patreon: / zelphontheshelf
PayPal: www.paypal.com...
Venmo: @ Samantha-Shelley-1

[@loni8078]

I'm thankful to hear from a theologian/philosopher that's a woman~ thanks for bringing her and this type of thought to the channel.

[@ZelphOntheShelf]

Right???

[@FishareFriendsNotFood972]

1:24:05 "How do I stop being angry? Lean into the anger, it has more to say, it has more to feel, it has its own timeline, you need to be in anger now. We have to process it, we have to get closer to it, we have to give it voice." ❤

[@giantclaw138]

Exactly. Repressing it will only do more harm than good

[@missionledcontent]

12 minutes in and I'm remembering why Brits Mormon stories episode is one of my favourites. She's so inspiring and reassuring to listen to.

[@soggytortillla]

Literally!!!

[@livelaughlisten14]

I’m a never Mormon but that’s how I found her. I resonate with her sooooo much. Super eye opening

[@missionledcontent]

@@livelaughlisten14 I'm never Mormon too. My family and friends struggle to understand why I like exmo content so much but the depths they have to go to deconstruct and reconstruct is so helpful to all of us. Since watching this I've been binge watching Britt's you tube Chanel, bought her book and made some big life decisions. Because, as Brit says, if we're going to die anyway, why not live a life that we love! I'm so grateful for this content and for the Zelphs for their part in my journey too. Xxx

[@livelaughlisten14]

@@missionledcontent I’m happy for you 😊

[@christopherlands2706]

I relate to what Tanner said about environmentalism and care for nature being looked down upon. I was raised fundamentalist Christian and every time I expressed concern about polar bears or global warming as a child, I was told that God commanded us to “kill and eat.” And so my concern was treated as, at best silly and at worst, sinful.

[@sarahgrandinetti9785]

Such a great conversation! I’m ex evangelical Christian (and now a mental health therapist) and I relate to so much of this! Thank you for the content 💕

[@anjuschka8735]

Another amazing episode! The three of you are inspiring, relatable, you have your feet on the ground, you went through things. I feel very grateful for this conversation.

[@Emmzilla]

I’m a chronic pain patient, and I love getting tattoos because the needle makes the pain everywhere else stop.

[@ZelphOntheShelf]

Whoah, love this!

[@Olivias180]

Just discovered no nonsense spirituality a few weeks ago and I’ve been diving into her content. Love this colab!

[@Sleepy-qb2wt]

Thanks for all you three do. 💜 When I turn into a black hole of chaos or loneliness, you keep me grounded and feeling connected. Even though I only know you through a screen, thank you!

[@annapatterson549]

Absolutely loved this video, you both are so good at asking questions and Britt is so good at answering them. I loved this conversation so much

[@ZelphOntheShelf]

I was nervous cause she’s so brilliant haha

[@Alienbvbyofficial]

GREAT conversation thank you so much

[@Angela-kv2cf]

Thank you for being Brittney to our attention. I really need the information as I have been struggling with existential dread. I just watched her first video and purchased her book on kindle.

[@Elusive_Reclusive]

Everytime I finish watching one of Brit's videos, I feel better. She clears the cobwebs and my thoughts and intentions just feel clearer. She's so cool, and I love her content.

[@ZelphOntheShelf]

I COULD NOT AGREE MORE she’s so cool I genuinely can’t fully hold it together

[@Elusive_Reclusive]

@@ZelphOntheShelfI just recently found her, so it’s so cool you three did a collab! Hope to see her all my other pods!

[@shayshay24-g9o]

My two favorite channels!!!! Finally! I was literally JUST thinking about how I wish yall would collab. Much love!

[@randomname4726]

Thanks for the shout out and encouragement for people with chronic pain. ❤

[@AliBreee]

40:45 I think that is how I feel toward humanity. It’s hard for me to have a romantic view of human existence because I can’t unsee the bad. I feel so much empathy and want to help who I can but the way she describes feeling when she looks at nature is how I feel looking at babies. It’s especially difficult when the people I have to interact with have such a romantic view of human existence. They want me to be thrilled that they brought another life into this world and I just think about another soul that will inevitably suffer to some degree.

[@ZelphOntheShelf]

I definitely can relate with babies 🤪 I think they’re fascinating and must be protected at all costs but I do NOT have the philosophical confidence to bring a new human into this world!

[@AliBreee]

@ my thoughts exactly. It’s “protect at all cost” blended with “oh no I can’t help you!” It’s uncomfortable to say the least. Loved this video.. thanks for what you all do

[@chokecherrywitch]

this is such a good conversation, i love talking about spirituality like this! 👍 ❤

[@cruelaz]

I'm so glad my mother had the same opinion about death and dying. her father died when i was still in kindergarden but old enough to understand that he had been sick and things weren't getting better. She got a lot of slack from other parents because I told the other children that my grandpa had died and I had been at the funeral saying goodbye and I find that ridiculous now. I was to young to understand the whole concept of death but she explained it to me in a way I understood my grandpa wasnt coming back but also he didn't leave us as in going away intentionally or something. I have no negative memories of attending his funeral. I was old enough to sit through the speeches and I vividly remember going up to my grandpas grave with my mother and saying goodbye. Death doesn't have to be scary on top of already loosing an important person to you. I'm glad I got to attend the funeral and say my final goodbyes.

[@emmagillette6249]

my three favorite exmormon content creators 😭💖 i've been blessed today.

[@ZelphOntheShelf]

🥹✨✨✨✨✨

[@godoggo9346]

I am going to go out on a limb and say that the rate if vegans who believe they do not contribute to suffering at all is way lower than the rate of meat eaters who like to complain about that type of vegan. Like having gone through every stage of omnivorousness from aloof neutral child to pescatarian youth, vegetarian teen, full meat eater again, uninformed vegan, over informed vegan, animal rights activist, generally consistent anti-oppression activist , exhausted mostly vegan but doing what works, and now like eating whatever is free and trying my best to consume all things locally but minimally…. After all those stages I must say I rarely meet a vegan who believes they don’t contribute to suffering. When i was that kind of vegan for one or two years, I was very alone in a small culty community and other vegans were like weirded out and not into it. And now I hear people complain about this type of vegan all the time, when the issue they are conplaining about is cognitive dissonance, and that is the same thing the militant vegans are complaining about. Like if you want to be mad at people for being unaware of their contribution to a problem, that is an issue that is worth some airwaves, but it’s almost like a thought ending cliche to say “veganism isn’t actually helpful because it doesn’t end all suffering,” and then the speaker feels absolved of their guilt for contributing to factory farming. When like vegans just want to be mindful of suffering and cause less, and I think a lot of people want that but do it slightly differently, and that should be seen as something we have in common.

[@randomname4726]

I find this argument from meat eaters so annoying because most vegans already know and accept this reality. Veganism is reducing suffering as much as is possible and practical. And it takes more crops to feed the animals.

[@nininini035]

I feel the same way, as someone who is just trying to not feel overly connected to the business that is killing my country - factory farming. Destroying people, cultures, other animals and our future survival. We just came out of a year or non-stop heatwaves, floods larger than that of Katrina and dryness close to the Atacama desert for months, along with pollution from forest fires caused by who? Factory farms. That's it. I also think animals are not inferior to us, so why should I be okay with treating them this way? Makes no sense. It's hard to try and live according to differing beliefs, especially in a capitalist hellscape, and I don't think things are gonna change for the better in my lifetime, but I do what I can. Why should I pretend not to care just to try to fit in to this mentally f-ed up society?

[@aldermanh]

Totally agree. I haven't met a single vegan that fits this righteous archetype meat eaters have assigned to them. I'm not a vegan myself, but I'm a vegetarian and keenly aware of how much I still contribute to suffering, and I would never claim otherwise.

[@lisaw8619]

I really appreciate this comment. I'm almost 100% vegan (vegetarian for decades). I guess it's hard to quantify the amount of suffering each diet causes (keeping in mind that people who eat meat ALSO eat plants and products made from plants, so meat eaters also contribute to animal deaths due to crop harvests), but another factor is the environmental impact of diet. Everything I've read says that in terms of water use and greenhouse gas emissions, a vegan diet is least harmful. Harming the environment also leads to human and animal suffering, so that's another angle to consider.

[@swededreams100]

This conversation was very helpful to me! It also prompted me to join your patreon 🎉 Love your channel.❤❤

[@ZelphOntheShelf]

Ahhh thank you so much!!! 💜💜💜

[@danblackwelder5261]

True spirituality has always been being honest and treating others fairly and with empathy.

[@beccj333]

I love this whole video so much. The conversation was great and intriguing

[@melissaw6427]

She is so incredible. What a great trio!

[@kcbrimhall]

as a very cerebral person struggling in my "reconstruction after nihilism" phase, I feel seen 😊Thank you all for sharing so many valuable insights!

[@ZelphOntheShelf]

YAY!

[@mruthles]

Thank you so much. I really needed this.

[@trevorper]

Love Brit! This is so good!!

[@sun1one1]

Love you Brit, but I disagree on a few things.1) I don't get the whole getting mad over lions eating zebras thing. The zebra is going to die anyway, and 99.99% of the time dying involves suffering. Speaking of chronic pain, I watched my grandma suffer terribly with arthritis for years; if she'd been a zebra she would have died before that happened. 2) 4B isn't about "punishing" men, it's about self-preservation. Women have been put in a situation where sex is not worth the risk anymore.

[@devi2289]

Agreed

[@aidyxe]

4B is a protest first and foremost, it's neither "self-preservation" nor "punishment".

[@skyeosullivan1014]

To the first point, I think you're misunderstanding. She wasn't "mad" at a hypothetical lion eating a hypothetical zebra. She was saying that nature is brutal, and not necessarily a place where she finds peace. You just outlined that very brutal nature in your comment. Nature is full of suffering

[@danielsykes7558]

Ah, but you get mad about her getting upset by it

[@sun1one1]

@ Well, I suppose there could be a world without death. But if death exists, so does suffering. And so does joy. Nature is 50/50 IMO.

[@christinabellini537]

The nature conversation is so good. I’ve been really struggling with the ways I conceptualize nature because I have both the romanticized and the brutal versions held. I’ve tried to approach the cognitive dissonance between the two and reached a new fusion perspective that the way I now find awe in the natural world is through it’s sheer forces and complexities and sort of just the realness of it.. it sounds weird but literally the way that it simply exists. The fact that it’s not one thing or the other, it’s not just suffering (though that’s a horrifyingly big part) and it’s not just pleasure (though the programming for pleasure is also a big part) it’s also inorganic matter, there is neutrality/deadness that I now am infatuated with. we focus so much on the mystery of life that we forget what a small fraction of nature/the universe that is and the painless (far as we know) wonders of everything else. it’s ultimately spectacularly objective and unknowable, so where I find comfort in it is the fact that I can’t know what any of it really is, I only have my subjective little experience, and I love knowing that I don’t know what I actually am or am looking at or will become when I die. I don’t know how the energy running my machine will transform, I don’t if I contain universes and am within infinite universes, if there’s no end to new dimensions, or if somehow this is a flat singular reality. I do of course know that suffering is bad, to those who experience it, and I’m never gonna be ok with it, please never let me mental gymnastics into somehow reconciling the horrors of animal evolution. I just also look elsewhere in nature where there is no suffering, I look at rocks and galaxies. Water, wind, the sensory bliss that the outdoors can provide. I allow a selfish enjoyment of my surroundings while never wholly forgetting that they are so much more then I can experience, so much of which is very negative.

[@ZelphOntheShelf]

I love this!!

[@anniesigl750]

I think Sam would be so great at doing something similar to Brit. Very insightful convo ❤

[@kristindawn]

This is the best notification I’ve got in a while! Tan, Sam and Britt! Woot 😀

[@ZelphOntheShelf]

STAYING VERY NORMAL ABOUT IT

[@kristindawn]

@ 😆

[@liesljohnson]

I am one of those "golden retriever" people, but I absolutely love your content and resonate with you. It may be because I have siblings, children, and friends who are more neurotic and it's fascinating to learn about how our brains are different. I'm often asked what I do to generally be happy all the time, and I always respond that it's not because I'm choosing to be. I was just born this way.

[@ZelphOntheShelf]

I KNEW IT! ✨ her content is simply too good

[@livelaughlisten14]

Thank you all for this ❤

[@missionledcontent]

Made. My. Day 🎉

[@clashwithwords]

I have a hard time with the idea that there will be suffering anyway.. to put it in simple terms. like yes, there will be like actually and I do think about the impact our everyday actions have and while I don’t think we need to live in complete fear and shame over that, I also think that a lot of people are willing to give up thinking about their actions effects overall so they can feel unbothered. and I personally try to encourage people to think more about how they make an impact, even when they don’t realize. so yes, maybe the lions would eventually evolve to make factory farming.. but to me it doesn’t mean that we forget about trying to make a change altogether. I don’t think we will ever live in a world that will be 100% sustainable for all beings and the planet itself, but I don’t think we should stop trying either.. sorry, bit of a ramble lol

[@christinabellini537]

I agree compleatly 💙

[@saegemehlfee]

im glad she said that about nature

[@carlisleh]

THIS IS THE VIDEO I NEEDED

[@ZelphOntheShelf]

🥳🥳

[@BruceBroman]

Great episode.

[@aosidh]

What a collab! Hip hip 🏝️

[@allisonmellas8748]

This was so good🙌

[@danieljohncarey7917]

Listening to this while writing. Interesting episode. Glad she got away from the lies and deception and grifting and control and suppression of the Mormon org. 51:45 the talk about how animals are NOT a priority in the Mormon teachings, and it's almost laughable that anyone would be a wildlife or environmental activist. So true. I eventually went full plant-based and I can't imagine how that would have been viewed when I was in the church. It especially wouldn't have fit while on a mission, as we were invited to so many home dinners.

[@chrewtransformation]

Best collaboration of the 21 century ❤

[@ZelphOntheShelf]

Could NOT agree more!

[@boxcardtable]

Taoism is the only religion I've ever found that had a canonical book I COMPLETELY agreed with and felt that all of the information aligned with the spiritual and scientific truths I understand.

[@haylebales]

I loved this interview. Britt- when you mentioned the benefit of psychedelics do you also mean microdosing to remind you of that feeling you had when you were a child? I want something that will resonate with me for a while versus a fleeting solution. Just curious because I came from a religious background and this sort of "alternative" treatment was completely looked down upon but I'm curious because I have cptsd and find it very very hard to feel safe or optimistic in my body and life each day. Thank you:) LOVED this interview!! Zelph on the shelf- I hope you bring Britt back!!

[@haylebales]

I don't agree that the deeper that sorrow comes into your being the more joy you can contain. I think when suffering is harsh enough it can put out your life force and leave you coasting towards the end. And sorry but if you don't agree with this comment you haven't experienced this kind of suffering so you wouldn't understand the perspective. Actually not sorry- just happy for you!!

[@ZelphOntheShelf]

You don’t think people who HAVE experienced extremely deep suffering might just disagree with this comment based on their own experiences, and it doesn’t mean anyone is right or wrong? Some of the people who have suffered the most have been able to access the most joy and peace. I don’t think there’s one single truth here!

[@haylebales]

@@ZelphOntheShelf I think suffering without hope is worse than suffering with hope. But I could be wrong. And I think lacking the privilege of protective resiliency factors precludes hope and the longer suffering progresses without being able to access anything that provides any support or relief also precludes hope. Perhaps you see it from "on the other side" of suffering.

[@FoursWithin]

Definitely harsh enough circumstances can wreck a person mentally and physically beyond help , or help simply isn't available. Chronic illness:, poverty, extreme child abuse, war and conflict, and social isolation are all everyday realities for plenty of people around the world. To deny that a certain portion of them are on a downward spiral from which there simply will be no escape is to deny reality.

[@christinabellini537]

I feel that. As someone who’s lived and is living with extreme trauma and chronic illness, I have definitely had my ability to experience pleasure and happiness decimated in many ways. There’ve been periods of inexplicable soul death where genuinely I’ve been shocked I am not dead because nothing about the way my systems were left processing life felt compatible with sustaining life in a body/brain. I’ve become a true zombie before and still am to a degree, with trauma induced neurological symptoms that leave me weak and disconnected from my muscles and senses and thoughts and emotions. I know what more then one kind of true shutdown can feel like, and after being in a safer space for long enough, some joy has still crept back in, and despite continuing to be overpowered by negatives and numbness, the kind of joy I am able to experience is somehow so much more profound. That doesn’t make anything “worth it” by a very long shot, but all this to say I think maybe I sorta see what both of you are saying, and it will be different in different people’s experiences which are all valid. Not everyone who undergoes deep anguish will have the circumstances to reach anything other then their suffering or numbness after. It’s such a complex topic.

[@soggytortillla]

God tier collab frfr

[@LauraOttawa]

I love listening to her tiktoks! ❤

[@danielsykes7558]

Oh wait, 2 hrs? When can i schedule this, the guest seems so lovely & i miss Sam & Tanner

[@some-guy-out-there-]

IF YOU ARE GOING THROUGH A FAITH CRISIS, this section 1:31:10 could save you so much heartache and avoid so much damage to your personal relationships if you follow her advice when it comes to talking to loved ones about the things you've uncovered about the church that you desperately want to share. It also hit hard when she was expressing the astonishment of how nobody would ask her, "Why did you leave the church?" I went through the same thing and was absolutely puzzled that close family wouldn't at least ask, "What was it that you found etc?"

[@kkturtle12]

I’m interested in learning a bit more about free will and how it functions as a spiritual concept. I understand that everything is a combination of nature and nurture, but I struggle with the concept of free will as it relates to accountability for someone who is abusive, for example. Any resources or readings you would recommend on this topic?

[@Zeett09]

I’ve never been able to meditate. I’ve tried. Then I realized I’m generally very calm anyway.

[@cruelaz]

for me being vegan or plant based is not stepping out of the system, you cant you will always be in a society still rooted in explotation of others humans and animals alike, but to look at what little I can control or what options I have and reducing harm there. Will being vegan stop the cycle of suffering? absolutley not. I am look for doing what I can with what I have where I am and through that not exhausting myself or my energies. So not fully stepping out of the cycle but seeing the ways we build on top of that and create more exploitation and harm that we way can go without if we change our own impulses desires consumerism etc. No one is perfect and striving for that will never make anyone happy but she has to see the irony in being so aware of the continues suffering all around us and not have any inkling of reducing that by what little we can do? I usually dont challenge someones diet as long as you leave me be I leave you be as well but saying so loudly how vegans think they are outside of the cycle of suffering and the arent isnt giving her second thoughts? like atleast the people are trying to do so? One thing that is a very green flag for me is people who are always trying and are okay with being seeing trying. You dont have to be vegan to reduce the harm you expell into this cycle you shouldnt have to exhaust yourself either. do what you can with what you have where you are 💛

[@diemdia]

Yeah, I found that bit a little annoying, just because I don’t know of any vegans that think they’re incapable of doing harm because of it. If anything, I think they’re more likely to be hyperaware of and worried about the harm they cause overall. Choosing veganism tends to come from a mindset of harm reduction wherever feasible, not of total absolution from being an animal on planet earth. Still interesting food for thought though

[@Elusive_Reclusive]

I deeply disagree that if humans disappeared and another type of animal became very, very intelligent, they would commit the same horrors of humans. I mean first of all it’s not just “intelligence” that makes humans capable of evil it’s all sort of things like instincts and adaptability specific to apes. But we don’t know how the intelligence of another species would manifest. Apes are a highly communal and power structures of usually one dominate male at the top are how most primates groups operate. The amount of violence they commit is much greater than other highly intelligent animals like elephants, crows, bees, dolphins. We have absolutely no idea how bees would run the earth if they gained intelligence that was as high as humans.

[@christinabellini537]

I feel this a lot ☹️💙

[@Elusive_Reclusive]

@ I like Britt a lot but I don’t think she’s much of an animal person and it’s made her completely incurious about the fellow species we share this planet with. Also think her views on veganism are a bit shaky. I don’t think vegans live in a fantasy world where they believe they aren’t responsible for any animal suffering on the planet. They just don’t wish to personally contribute more. And overall, it’s a very positive move for more and more people to take.

[@sydneyjohns1548]

1:14:14 I'm obsessed with this idea

[@jadeelizaishere]

ugh Britt is so slay.

[@ZelphOntheShelf]

I knowwwwwww

[@joshuadavis6010]

Watching this actually really helped my election anxiety :) also made me feel very good about the choice not to spend it with my Mormon family this year 🙂‍↕️

[@froggie9871]

Britt!!!!!!! ☀️

[@Kalama_Llama_King_Kong]

Brit is the best!!!

[@Kalama_Llama_King_Kong]

Oh my gosh guys! I thought that was just my cold-heart that disconnected me from animals. My dad had me kill them all the time and so many of my missionary friends talked so often of killing things. 51:36

[@Kalama_Llama_King_Kong]

52:11 Father's and sons. My friends were playing baseball with frogs. I think I did too😢

[@Kalama_Llama_King_Kong]

There was this domination feeling I felt. And it felt justified.

[@Kalama_Llama_King_Kong]

Luckily, my kids don't have this and I'm so happy they are so anti-violence. I was not brought up that way.

[@Kalama_Llama_King_Kong]

Sorry, if my over commenting bugs. This keeps me engaged. The Mother Theresa story reminds me of the anger I felt when I saw the Vatican. I was so surprised, but I wanted to vandalize it, deeply. I felt so angry. Like, this opulence came on the backs of the poor and colonized.

[@joseejohnstun4641]

“We’re all gonna die” by AJ Smith anyone? We sing along to this song daily probably 😂🙌🏼 my 6 and 4 year olds love it.

[@joeyrufo]

1:52:43 "free will" isn't the issue! When you're being tortured, you're not "free"! The less tortured you are, the more free you can be! What you're talking about is compatibilism! That's not the same thing as "libertarian free will"! But it still can be called "free will," because it's a kind of freedom that allows us to connect to our power! It doesn't matter whether you want to overthink where this power comes from! You can harness it!

[@TheSandyStone]

Licked cupcake reasons 😂

[@amynay4686]

I'm curious about the death app. Anyone have a link?

[@ZelphOntheShelf]

WeCroak! ✨

[@dysfacto2495]

Little late to this one, but coming upon this video has been rather timely because I've been having another bout of "what comes next" panic. It's funny, I grew up in a born again evangelical household and my first time I experienced true fear of dying it was because I believed I was going to heaven, and the idea of heaven as they described it was horrifying to me. An eternity where all I do is sing praises to god, repeat the same thing over and over again, in a world without pain which also meant a world without change. Then when I left the church I was fine for a bit, but now I have this ever year or so thing where I just picture dying as just this endless void, but one where I am conscious of it at all times. Again, not logical, but really not a big fan of just endless stasis. I also just never cared for how much my parents emphasized that this life was all about securing heaven, and that this world was temporary and whatever happened here was god's will. I always felt like it was an excuse to not engage with the world and it's problems, but also just feel sad because living that way leads you to sacrificing so much of this life instead of living it. One thing I did find helpful, and I've been working at more is mindfulness meditation, and learning how to just be comfortable in the moment, learning how to lose myself and how to view it as peaceful. And my goal is to eventually get to the point where I don't view death as an end, but just peace.

[@ZelphOntheShelf]

I love mindfulness meditation! Thank you for sharing all of this, it’s very relatable. I hope you find more and more peace as you keep moving forward. 💜💜

[@ColumineMiette]

I'm on the fence about going no contact with family. If these people truly do not care about you, i don't see the value of having them in my life. But I'm suffering whether or not they are. I have mental anguish if i cut them off, but if i don't, then they hurt my current family and give us stress and sicknesses because they don't believe in vaccines. So I'm a little confused. Is this more like the serial killer situation or more like the "let's have thanksgiving without talking politics" situation. They won't honor my boundaries if i give them an inch.

[@ZelphOntheShelf]

I think only you can decide what you value most! Definitely a deeply personal decision 🤍

[@FoursWithin]

Do people who don't honor boundaries honor anything else in relation to you ?

[@sd7785]

I was enjoying this until around the 50 minute mark with that criticism of vegans. Most vegans are perfectly aware that we, by virtue of living on this planet, are causing some type of harm. Veganism isn't about pretending we aren't causing harm, it's about minimising harm and moving towards eliminating unnecessary and avoidable suffering. I've unfortunately found that vegans are criticised for not being perfect moral agents in a way that even people that directly abuse animals (e.g. the frog examples) aren't. All targeting vegans does is alienate those that are more likely to care about the other causes of animal suffering mentioned, which helps no-one. It seems the solution given here is to accept the death and suffering of animals in nature and within our human systems. When surely the response should be to do our part to better the world for all beings, even if we can't completely solve everything?

[@joeyrufo]

14:45 GRIEVE HERE NOW! THAT'S WHAT I ALWAYS SAY! 😅

[@joeyrufo]

49:13 yes! Suffering in nature is a very good critique of religion, BUT! WE WEREN'T CREATED BY A GOD! WE WERE CREATED BY MOTHER EARTH! THAT MEANS THIS **IS** THE BEST "POSSIBLE WORLD" BECAUSE THERE ARE NO OTHER FUCKING "POSSIBLE WORLDS" FOR US TO ESCAPE TO! SO CAN WE STOP BEING CRITICS OF MOTHER EARTH LIKE WE'RE PITCHFORK WRITERS AND LEARN TO APPRECIATE OUR SHORT TIME WITH HER!?

[@keneteck]

You raise a good point. How else could nature cause such amazing variety but through a brutally simple process like natural selection? The simple births the complex, and that causes both the magic and dysfunction of this world.

[@joeyrufo]

@keneteck yes! We have to learn to synthesize our survivor guilt with our survivor bias! We have to mourn! It's how we remember! It's how we cause less suffering in the future! It's how we appreciate what we already have in healthful ways!

[@Deconstructingmormon]

I don’t know this seems a little too negative for me. I mean, I am pissed off at the Mormon church for lying, trying to find where I am with God and I am a person that is not afraid of facts but I can also enjoy a sunset or nature and there are still a lot of good things around. There were just a lot of negative vibes in this one to me.

[@ZelphOntheShelf]

This whole thing was “enjoy the sunset” energy I’m confused what you heard?!?

[@Deconstructingmormon]

@ZelphontheShelf Thanks for the response, I do love your episodes! A couple thoughts here. She specifically said that she looks at nature and sees death and suffering and nature is brutal. She mentioned the lion eating the zebra and she doesn’t see the beauty in live waterfall. A sunset is nature. So she would see the sunset as an ending. I see a lion eating a zebra and think of all the zebras that weren’t eaten because nature gave them means to escape. Nature is brutal but on the flip side is caring and gives animals a means to protect themselves. She focuses on the negative aspect of brutality. Earlier in the video she mentioned she finds peace just realizing that we are all worm food and that’s it. She mentioned wanting to use science. There is no science currently available that can prove there is nothing after death nor prove there is anything after death. So it is a matter of how you approach it. Leaving it at we are worm food and that’s it may help a person enjoy a day more or find peace but doesn’t give any purpose to spending time learning and growing because it has no benefit in the long term. A more positive approach is saying all the learning and developing I do will have some future benefit after death because we continue to exist. How or what form that existence is may be unknown but it is still a more positive approach to something that can’t be proven. She chooses a more negative approach of enjoy the moment because that’s it. I am not saying it is wrong and isn’t beneficial to people, just to me seems more negative. I am only about six months into my shelf collapsing so perhaps in a few more months I will listen to this again and have a completely different opinion. Again, love your shows they have really helped me think through things!

[@Chriliman]

Seems like Gods plan to make a new heaven and earth is the way to go. I’m just not exactly sure how this current heaven and earth will eventually die, is it self destructive due to selfish will or does God directly destroy it?

[@ZelphOntheShelf]

Everything in the universe is constantly expanding and contracting! Breaking down and reforming!

[@Chriliman]

@@ZelphOntheShelf true, I just question whether I want to be stuck in that cycle or if God provides a way out of that cycle into something more like an eternal life of bliss that we can kind of imagine.