Heavy vs Light Arrow Foam Test = NO PENETRATION?????

[@PersonalBestOutdoors]

Haha. I love it!!! This was an excellent video, Troy. Definitely thought provoking. Here's what people fail to recognize... ANY ARROW, whether 350gr or 1000gr... fixed blade, or flapper... so long as it is sharp, and from a properly tuned 50 lb, 28" draw bow is going to pass through a white tail. I am talking vital v, didnt even touch ribs or scapula etc. Here's the problem. Shoot the hard spots, and you'll get different results. Hit that rib, that scapula with that 350gr arrow. When you trekked for 3 miles and 4 hours to recover that animal, I'll bet you wish you did something different next time. Throw a ping pong ball as fast as you can at a window. Then Throw a golf ball half as fast. Which one broke the window? Pretty simple example of momentum potential through a medium. Why people don't understand this is beyond me. I live and hunt in the pacific northwest. I have 2 bows i use for hunting. Mathews vxr31.5 Darton Maverick XT 32 Both are set at 72lbs, and i have a 27.5 inch draw. My arrow set up weighs 552 gr and 19% FOC. I use Kudu point contour + fixed blade broadheads. I've never had a problem where i wish i had a more flat trajectory. 16 years straight I've gotten a deer, elk, or black bear. Sometimes 2 or all 3. I've had long tracks, and I've had times where i didn't need to because i watched them drop. I can promise you that my adrenaline still gets me sometimes, and i don't make the best shot... what i can also say, is over the last 6 or so years that I've been using a heavier arrow, and ditched the mechanicals, I've had better success, and shorter tracks. Yall do what you want. I'm just an uneducated redneck tree climber.

[@guitarq359]

The speed argument is my favorite, and I use ping pong balls and golf balls as an example too. People have a hard time wrapping their mind around a slower arrow having more momentum, even though Troy’s tests have shown that at 60 yards heavier arrows have higher momentum than lighter arrows. Everyone worries what their arrow is doing immediately after leaving the string, but no one worries about the arrow right before impact.

[@PersonalBestOutdoors]

@guitarq359 even more important, is the speed and momentum THROUGH the intended target. Speed erosion at yardage is what you are referring to, and yes, it is important. Especially if you are known for taking 60 yard shots on large game. (Not something I am in the habit of doing) But a few things are important to note... 1. Efficiency of your projectile is paramount. There is not a soul alive that can cognitively and intelligently argue that a lighter projectile is going to pass further through an intended medium (within reason of course) because physics are way smarter than any of us. 2. There is a reason it is called an INTENDED TARGET... game is not made of ballistic gelatin... there is dirt, hair, skin, muscle, tendon and bone which affect the arrow performance. There are even bodily fluids like blood which help to lubricate the projectile through the tissue. I am human. I INTEND to hit heart 100% of the time... but I've punched scapula, humorous, ribs, and even missed entirely and hit spine or kidney. On a whitetail, most set ups will continue through our well into the animal. But a 380" bull elk is an entirely different ball of wax... so it makes sense to shoot that setup for all large game. Deer may jump the string. But getting within 40 yards, my 550g arrow is still moving 272fps. It reaches in under half a second. Not exactly a bunch of reaction time, and not a whole lot different for the animal vs an arrow moving at 330 fps.

[@ryanwhittlinger1073]

I agree that downrange a heavier arrow has more momentum. But the golf ball analogy is bad. You said throw a ping pong ball at a window, then a golf ball half as hard and see what breaks it. You’d have to proportion the speed to the weight of the ping pong to the golf ball. So if the golf ball is 5x heavier than the ping pong, you’d have to multiply the speed of the ping pong ball by 5x

[@PersonalBestOutdoors]

@@ryanwhittlinger1073 read it again. I did proportion the speed. I said a ping pong ball as fast as you can. The golf ball half a fast.

[@guitarq359]

@@ryanwhittlinger1073 Assuming the human is throwing each ball with the same amount of force, you can assume that both balls would naturally proportion their speed. The golf ball will go slower because it’s heavier, just like a heavier arrow will go slower off a bow shooting it with the same force as a light arrow. He didn’t say launch both at the same initial velocity.

[@d500mag2]

The answer is surface area and friction. Foam targets are manufactured to be consistent as an individual target. Material density will vary with the brand and even from model to model within a brand. Arrow manufacturers also appreciate consistency. The surface area of arrows depends on diameter-- larger diameter = more surface area. When an arrow hits a foam target, surface area is introduced into a dense foam resulting in friction. How does a target stop a projectile? Yep, with friction. Once a certain amount of friction is reached, no amount of velocity or ke will overcome it. Friction is used to keep shallow water platforms and buildings upright. All of the tests on you tube are actually excellent tests, they are just just mislabeled. They are not arrow penetration tests, they are target friction tests.

[@karmas.busdriver]

I personally never had an issue with arrow penetration on Deer until I started using mechanical Broadheads. When I was shooting my mathews Legacy with 2213 easton aluminum arrows & 100 grain muzzy's or the good old tried & true nap thunder heads, I rarely didn't get a pass through. My arrows for this season, are 513 grains, with 150 grain Iron will single bevel heads, pricey but I like to be able to sharpen & reuse.

[@EricRucker-sw3qb]

Troy, you are absolutely right on string jumping and pennatration shots in foam. Some people just don't get it!!!! They know everything, 'NOT' !!!!

[@davemeise2192]

Great theme and comments Troy. Almost 20 years have passed since I shot my first heavy arrow into my foam target. I shoot a 65 lb compound and I used to shoot 300 or 400 grain arrows. When I switched to 700 plus grain arrows I thought "wow, I'm going to see exactly how much penetration I can get with heavy arrows." I was stunned to see they penetrated about the same as the lighter and faster arrows. It took a few minutes of thinking to realize 1) the two adults in our neighbourhood while I was growing up had 50 lb recurve bows, so they were slow, 2) they shot cedar shaft arrows that weighed around 600 grains or more, huge arrows and not perfectly straight, 3) they were moose hunters and sometimes, even with those huge, heavy and slow arrows, would get complete pass throughs, 4) it must be the target. It's designed to stop arrows from going through. A few years later at 30 yards, by accident I "missed" a black bear chest and shot him in the neck. My arrow broke two vertebrates and penetrated up to the fletching. Heavy arrows are phenomenal! Thank you for promoting them and for educating us.

[@308blr2]

I started out with the lightest shafts that I could use and 100 grain Muzzys. I watched whitetails turn their heads, bite the shafts and pull the arrow out from behind their shoulders; and then they ran. After breaking lots of arrows in practice and hunting I switched to heavier shafts. With Magnus buzz cuts and slick tricks I started getting pass throughs. This was great; so I thought expandable broadheads had to better. I watched a whitetail run with perhaps half the shaft sticking out of the entrance side. Now I run premium single bevel 200 grain broadheads pulling heavier shafts with heavy spines. These arrows zip through whitetails. Neophytes may learn from my experiences or learn for themselves.

[@RanchFairy]

You and I have the same experience over time. That's why I started using our ranch as a test lab. Feeders give me consistent, hunting type / length opportunities.

[@ZachHunts]

Good content. Folks testing in foam are as ill informed as folks that think you have to have a 600gr arrow to kill a whitetail or that you'll never have a problem with a 350gr arrow.

[@timcrane9043]

Targets and gel blocks are meant to stop the projectile! That’s why some foam targets require that you lube your arrow shafts for ease of removal! Otherwise you have to pull like a mother………. To get them to come out. Would it be a valid test to shoot arrows through a thin target, say a sheet of leather, or rubber sheet, and measure the arrows exit velocity? I’m already onboard with heavy setups, but just a question for those that may not be convinced.

[@mattnewcomb4147]

You should run it by rocket man, but the foam or gel is so sticky that is uses friction to turn all the arrow's energy into heat. All arrows penetrate the same because they have the same amount of surface area rubbing on the gel. Since arrows shot out of the same bow have roughly the same energy even when shooting different arrow weights ( heavier arrows get a few % more energy out of the same bow), but all the arrows have the same surface area, somebody smart with math could prove foam penetration is strictly energy vs arrow's surface area. As penetration increases, friction increases because more shaft is rubbing on the gel. Arrows in game are constantly opening new blood vessels so they are constantly being lubricated, plus meat is much more slick. Remember cartoons when a steak would fall on the floor and the chef would slip on it? Never gonna slip on clear gel, in fact it would make a good shoe sole.

[@philipgolds5240]

The assumption the cross section is the same is also questionable. I’ve got both 100g field points on a 350 spine and 200g field points on a 240, and I just went and measured. The diameter on the 100g is 6.5mm, the 200g is 9mm. In terms of cross sectional area that’s a difference of about 92%…got to make a difference.

[@thecognitiveconservative489]

Spot on

[@RanchFairy]

I am still digging into this. The folks doing the foam thing don't realize that the energy of all the projectiles is about the same. Hitting a target designed to stop all like projectiles. Diameter is part of the drag. Spot on. Still exploring it.

[@mattnewcomb4147]

@@RanchFairy also there is an asymptote if you plot penetration vs energy in sticky stuff. It might only take 30 foot pounds to penetrate 9" but it takes 1000 foot pounds with the same arrow to penetrate 18". As penetration approaches 30 inches, foot pounds required approaches infinity, or something like that. This is because the deeper the penetration, there is exponentially more friction (or exponentially more deceleration per inch of penetration), not a linear increase in friction or deceleration. If those hypothetical numbers were true, the difference between 10 and 10.2" penetration would be significant, but lost in the noise.

[@RanchFairy]

@@mattnewcomb4147 Welcome to the completely logical part of the discussion. There's only about 5 of us here.

[@TobyWilliamson-l4m]

Yep plan b arrows are in my quiver cause plan A usually never happens , great video and true content

[@Kurtdog63]

I posted a comment intended for new archers just getting into the sport about the importance of having your arrow spine, point weight, and bow matched for optimum arrow flight. The intent was for new archers to work on their form with equipment that was capable of shooting accurately, so they would know that whatever accuracy issues were occurring, was because of their form, and not from their archery equipment. Somebody comments back about how they (and their grandpappy) shot all different kinds of arrows, different spine, different point weights, and it really didn't matter what you chose to shoot. Like you and other valid archery channels, my comment was to keep new archers in the sport. If new archers found his comment credible, most of them quit the first day.

[@timl8302]

Did they have to change the POI when putting a broadhead on? Grandppy used aluminum which were heavy arrows.

[@laneriley7422]

I have the same thoughts, all of these guys doing the foam tests are just Jim Jones-ing all of their followers. I shoot what I still consider light arrows (after watching quite a few of your videos) at 475 grains, and the difference between a magnus buzzcut with a solid FOC at that weight vs the 330 grain setup with a 3 blade muzzy I was shooting when I first started bowhunting is ASTOUNDING. Few other channels explore their hypothesis as throughly as you do AND have results to back them up. keep on keeping on brother.

[@benmoehring]

Hey Troy, does this basically mean that the pigs you shoot define the test... 😂😂 Glad someone is out there helping us understand all the things arrows do...

[@michaelkrish-m4x]

Thank you for all the great content. I agree with you about the arrow into the targets. 100%.

[@chrispalffy3511]

"The target defines the test" goes over the averageg guys head. A short sentence with massive meaning. Its "my" opinion that Arrow performance on Gel block targets is directly ( physically) connected to density and friction of the material being used. Therefore, arrow performance on Gelblocks is measureable in square mms or fractions of inchs of the area of the front of the projectile ( the surface area)x the friction ( resistance) of the target (x target density) x arrow and head construction ( weight and diameter) x speed, equals the result and not measurable by inches of penetration. (and the "accumulated science" of arrows versus Gelblock testing on youtube is showing exactly that) Thats why Gel block testing is so good, because it is consistent. The problem with testing on it, is that you need to be able to measure " all" the factors in the equation and not just the one that matters to ourselves ( the depth of penetration measurement) The depth measure on Arrow versus Gelblocks is a by product of the Gelblock construction and "not "arrow performance. You would get the same measurable results from shooting at a concrete block, like John Lusk does. The target defines the test. Thats my opinion and I'd love someone to school me differently.

[@fasmola]

Penetration results maybe the same… but the foam doesn’t absorb ALL of the energy. Shooting a light arrow on a free standing target doesn’t move it much. I’ve stacked targets and a heavy arrow (676g) knocks the target off it’s perch.

[@robertgraham3970]

Saw video the other day of a man stating that 6" of PINK FOAM SIDING will stop a broadhead on his arrows... I commented that maybe HIS set-up will be stopped. My 712 grain arrow being shot out of my 70#, 30" draw Elite bow is used to take bears... i NEED pass through, bone crushing, sharp bladed arrows that will out preform the MADE IN CHINA tagged over the counter set ups. Keep up the good work.

[@RanchFairy]

That’s a pretty draggy substrate - it might But it has NO CORRELATION to animals

[@robertgraham3970]

@@RanchFairy he also uses heads made in China so he can buy more... read dull... without putting money into sharpening them...

[@KevinMillard68]

you know i don't agree with you on everything especially bare shaft tunning but this your 100% bang on in your information

[@RanchFairy]

@@KevinMillard68 Thank you. I continue to explore the bare shaft tuning - there’s so much there and I have more and more questions!! NEVER start testing!! You have more questions than answers!!

[@KevinMillard68]

@@RanchFairy yup

[@MrBowNaxe]

Atta Boy RF! I can't even watch any other videos about arrow building, broad head selection or target selection on animals unless it's yours! Preach brother, we know who spits the truth. Can't wait to see whats next.

[@karmas.busdriver]

Been lots of no names trying to disagree with Ashby's work. KZbin allows geniuses without credentials to push agendas over facts against anyone.

[@veteranoutdoorsman9978]

There's lots of big names doing the same thing.

[@vincenaccarato5833]

Hi Ranch Fairly it so true the mediums have resistance at a point we’re no arrow will pass ! So basically all the arrows will penetrate to a certain point and once they reach that point they are all going to stop

[@cjr4497]

They don't really know the work. They just bash straw men.

[@vincenaccarato5833]

An animal is hard then soft and l then hard again a ballistic jell is made so that at 0:17 certain point the object will reach a point where they can not pass unless they have a force that can break that wall like barrier

[@vincenaccarato5833]

It like shooting at a bullet proff glass and saying the no pistol bullet penetrate more than another but I believe a 357 mag will penetrate more than a 25 cal every day

[@timothywilliams933]

I saw the guy from instinctive addiction archery do 2 different test with low poundage trad bows and different arrow weights. Now he was using 2 different types of ply in the videos I saw which I know is not consistent but I found it interesting that in his test the heavier arrow always out penetrated the light arrows. He did the same test with broadheads and it actually made it worse. The light arrows would just stick in the ply wood not even an inch. And the heaviest arrow blew right through every time. He did have anything behind the wood in the test

[@tolt1776]

Used different plywood because the first was regular ply wood then he used solid plywood..huge difference in strength. Besides shooting animals the 1" solid plywood test is the best because it showed how 50-100 grains made a difference between pass through or not.

[@vincenaccarato5833]

Yes the plywood shows all you need to know

[@vincenaccarato5833]

Jeff from instinctive addiction is also a great shot and builds trad bows he knows just like Troy that low pound trad bows need heavy arrows like hot dogs need mustard

[@ericnewman971]

yes, the heavy arrow shot from the same bow will always out perform NO one has ever denied this.

[@tolt1776]

@@ericnewman971 haha Lusk archery does all day long...he's dumb as shit.

[@gripsarchery14]

It's as simple as the scientific method. An experiment must only have one variable. Different arrow weights, different broadheads, in different target mediums equals too many variables. They are great if we want to know what arrow system penetrates layered foam the best. Or which one has the best performance on 10% gel. But in my opinion the best medium to test on to find out what arrow system performs best on animals is to shoot animals. The more animals the better. (insert sarcastic tone for the next line) If only there was someone that did that, had 100's or 1000's of data points on arrow impacts on animals and put it all together in a report for anyone to read. That sure would be helpful and possibly educational.

[@ericnewman971]

I would agree. You must control the variables. Ashby did a poor job of this. Looking at his testing, he shot a minimum number of shots per arrow and always changed broadheads. This alone will change the outcome. It would have been good if he had picked one broadhead and didn't change anything other than weight. Now, he would have had some good data. When he was always getting pass-throughs with the compound bow instead of decreasing the velocity of the arrows by going to a trad bow, he could have done the same with the compound bow by using a lighter arrow.

[@chrispalffy3511]

Dead right, these tests should all really have a control, but they never do.

[@stephenballard3759]

There's all kinds of ways to structure a study so you don't need a control group. In health care medicine one of the things we do is simply analyze a huge sample. If you can't control or limit the variables you raise your sample size and you learn to sift the data by making it searchable. For instance, while it is true that Doctor Ashby used a lot of different broadheads, they can be grouped by broadhead type, number of blades, etc. Then they can be regrouped by arrow weight, location of the hit, or whatever.

[@pensnut08]

When I shoot a heavy arrow vs a lighter arrow, into a target, I can HEAR the difference between the two. The heavier arrow has louder "thump". If you don't get what I am saying, try it.

[@JIM.......]

Weird, most information I've seen from industry engineers and competitive arches, all say accuracy first. This by very nature includes a perfectly tuned bow and arrow flight. You discounting them saying that, is equally misleading. Of course, every engineer I work with also might agree a bit more momentum via a slightly heavier arrow from the same bow setup, may make a very tiny, insignificant % of potential penetration increase; but the real increases in "potential" will come from a different bow setup. Ie. more DL, DW, less LO (more aggressive cams), less BH.. etc..

[@nicetryb0z0]

Fair and makes sense. I think a lot of times these guys argue past each other.

[@donaldvonlintig8445]

I Totally Agree with Troy, shooting foam or anything else, besides animals, doesn't prove a thing. After 45 years of strictly Bow-Hunting, I've been thru all the fazes... '"The Speed Faze" Back in the day with 80 lb. bows, Overdraws, and Toothpicks for arrows, 100 grain Broadheads, etc. The simplest way for me to to explain the "Heavy Arrow Concept" to younger bow hunters, that I am mentoring, is to picture a little Honda civic, maybe it weighs 2,500 lbs. ,rolling down a slight hill, maybe 5 m.p.h. You could get in front of it, and put your hands on the hood, and slow it down, and stop it from rolling. Now picture a Freight Train, about 10 Tons, rolling down the same hill, at half the speed, 2 m.p.h. Do you think you could stop it from rolling ? No Way ! Because of "Momentum' created by the weight. I think Momentum is a better formula to calculate an arrows performance , than Kinetic Energy, which is probably better applied to a bullets performance, I.M.O. I hope this helps in understanding , the "Adult Arrow Concept"

[@JIM.......]

this is just the fanatical kind of nonsense comparison that just leaves 1/2 the physics out of the equation. You can not only use part of an equation to come to a logical result. First, you need to put a time component into your example as the train would take much longer to begin to move. And secondly, you need to take the hill out as it will continue to let gravity work. This is where in your example the momentum comes from, and it is fundamentally flawed. It's also silly at its core, a train paints a great image but what train only weighs 10 tons? Hell, my sprinter weighs almost 6 tons, Class A motorhomes can weigh as much as 15 tons.. Taking a normal 500 grain to the "needed 650gr" is what about 23%? Let's use a person with a short draw and 60# a 500 grain just for arguments on a 330ibo around 235fps: then a 650gr, that same be would be at almost recurve speed, around 206fps 22.4% in speed.. Using the same logic as adding 23% to the math would have your argument better phrased as: You wrote > "picture a little Honda civic, maybe it weighs 2,500 lbs. ,rolling down a slight hill, maybe 5 m.p.h." Let's switch to a similar mass comparison> Now, add 3 people and a dog in the car and it weighs 3,075lbs (the same % of the increase) and is traveling 3.85mph BOTH are now on a completely flat surface. What car would you rather stop? Probably too hard to tell right? They both have stored the energy from the hill.. the cavoite is the hill in this case, also is a perpetual energy source based on time and drag.

[@jamescarvill1589]

Yes momentum would be better as it's a linear representation vs a quadratic. Meaning ke falls off exponentially at distance, momentum would the linear value.

[@theroncorbett7991]

2 questions, Question 1, Is there such a thing as overkill with a arrow system? Question 2, why in the world do we see half a flipping arrow hanging out a whitetail with the so called perfect shot placement on the thousands of videos available? I’ve been shooting 640 plus grain arrows with Zwickey Eskimos for 35 years out of multiple compound bows and have NEVER left an arrow in anything, mule deer or elk specifically.

[@howardrichburg2398]

I know for a fact arrow weight matter. We had a target, feed sag with a sleeping bag stuffed into in. Set it up at 40 yards. I was shooting a 56 lb. longbow with 400 gn carbon arrows. They shot flat but bounced off the target. Built some new arrows that weighed 590 gn and the stuck halfway in. Same arrows and at 20 yards the 400 gn arrows barely stick in. The 590 gn hit like a ton of bricks and put holes in my shed. What the target was hung on. Shot same arrows at hay bales at various distances and every time to heavy arrows stuck to the fletchings or deeper, the light arrows about 1/2. At farther distances, 30+ yards, it is really noticeable. Foam and gel are sticky and grab the arrows shaft, stopping the arrow. Great for stopping arrows. Not great for determining penetration.

[@Snailz5]

Just keep banging the drum bud! That’s all you can do. It’s unfortunate most people don’t have the basic understanding of how to tell science and research from a dude who doesn’t know what he’s talking about just filming himself screwing around. A public that chooses to be informed by entertainers instead of experts is the reason things aren’t getting better despite almost every person having ready access to the majority of human knowledge via their phone or an internet connection. If the dummies have to come to this research via the same path of frustration and failure that you did, then that’s the price they have to pay for not choosing to be properly informed.

[@OutdoorsSky]

An animals body isn’t consistent , bones meat ect.. depends on where it hits !

[@Cummins-]

Consistently inconsistent

[@garrettstraffon608]

😂 just get a fixed blade to fly good. Forget everything else

[@Cummins-]

@@garrettstraffon608 653gn arrow with 200 single bevel and a 100gn insert to be specific lol

[@Erick-ie8ll]

@@garrettstraffon608I agree. I like Troy but I went away from 600 grains or more and now I’m at 450 grains with a very sharp monolithic fixed 3 blade with a footer. I’ve gotten great results on whitetail the past 2 years. Structural integrity and sharp broadheads >

[@WhatwedointodayOutdoors]

Thats exactly what he's saying 😂

[@chrisruzsa2798]

Nothing simulates animals except for animals. This said i have seen on my crossbow target 350grian is only a couple inches penetration. 415 grains was half a bolt and 510 was vanes buried a darn near pass through. It was back yard shooting that i saw how foc and weights matter. This was a crossbow though and at 50 yards results were very similar with heads and tips. They are designed to stop bolts and the fact they barely do makes me happy lol.

[@MichaelLakota-vc4tk]

What the hell are those people even thinking?!?! Targets are supposed to stop your arrows by friction and that results in heat ! The arrows pretty much weld themselves in the target. That is why “you “ -meaning-the dumb asses complaining, bought the target in the first place!! Stop my arrows,that’s all…..that’s all you want-correct?-If you want some kind of penetration test then grab your pliers and see which weight is easiest to hardest to pull out-that should give you a very little bit of useful info. Very little! Troy, I understand the frustration!! Rock on brother Mike

[@joelmaxfield9703]

Never have I said foam or anything else is relatable to critters for starters. I have said several times critters are a terrible inconsistent and unreliable medium, that answers your question about why everything’s different in a thousand videos better then anything. When you change Ke of a arrow it for sure changes the depth of penetration on foam or anything else. The testing was done from 25 ft #’s to 95 ft #’s and within 5 ft #’s there is very consistent and repeatable difference in penetration. I’ve said many times even a different field point soils a test, broadhead testing compounds the veritables by many times. Add a crappy medium like a critter and the veriables are endless. The report you like best says when a arrow don’t stop there is nothing to test.

[@RanchFairy]

Do note this. "If you only get one half an arrow in foam and its a valid test. NO ARROW would ever penetrate past 1/2 - EVER, in anything. That's what the foam test leads people to believe. Stay tuned. I've got more coming. It's gonna get even better.

[@joelmaxfield9703]

If you continue to use my photos please use them in the text of what they are representing. Those photos are of equal or similar Ke yet different mass shot from the same bow. The penetration as shown is the same change the Ke and it is not. As shown in other photos not selected. You could show the photo of equal momentum, those arrows are of course different Ke as they have to be and the penetration is substantially different.

[@ericnewman971]

you are bullheaded as hell. I love it. You didn't comprehend a damn thing Joel just told you. You need to stop being so hell-bent on thinking people are out to get you. hahaha @@RanchFairy

[@RanchFairy]

@@joelmaxfield9703 You post them for the world to see, but when someone opposes your failed experiment I need your permission? I'll use my own photos. You act like it's artwork protected by the national archives. Just wait. It's gonna be great!

[@ericnewman971]

Yes, an arrow can penetrate over 1/2. we just can't do it. In one of the tests with equal KE, the two arrows penetrated the same. Why, because a target is an equal retardation target. the amount of penetration doesn't matter. it could be 6" 12" or even 24" it doesn't matter because it doesn't correlate to an animal. When we decrease the amount OF KE the arrow with less KE and it doesn't matter what the weight iswe see a decrease in penetration. again depth means nothing. no correlation to an animal. but what it does show is we wont get the same penetration in an animal as we decrease KE. That an easy one to prove. take your arrow and shot it into an animal. now decrease the draw weight on your bow by 10 lbs. that arrow will not penetrate the same. I'm sure you have seen this 100's of times in animals. That is exactly what the test shows. decrease KE decreases penetration. Again and I'm repeating this as you seem to be hung up on this. the amount of penetration in a foam target has zero correlation to the amount of penetration in an animal. @@RanchFairy

[@josephcollins4498]

Very well put. I like to use analogies. How come a javelin is heavier in the front? Cuz your point weight needs to be substantial to carry & stick into the ground so u get a score. Its Physics & Occam's Razor. There has to be justification, not just opinions.

[@Cummins-]

Its really hard to argue with 30 years of testing data

[@treefrogskis]

I bought a new crossbow this year, claimed 400fps, and a new block foam target. At 40yrds, 100 grain field points bury up to the fletching. 150 grain field points bury the 16.5" arrow completely and I have to pull them thru from the back. The first shot with the 150's I thought I missed, until I checked the target and found the point sticking out the backside! I'm sold on heavy arrows.

[@RanchFairy]

@@treefrogskis massive momentum increase at that velocity

[@pastorbillyedgar4986]

Looking forward to field test some 604 grain arrows on meat this year

[@andrewpurcell6153]

Science wins!!! Everyone I point to your channel says the same thing….”holy crap…this stuff is like a cheat code for hunting”. Like deer hunting with a 22 or a 300 win Mag. Adult arrows turn the odds in your favor, which is the point. Thank man for your dedication to our sport

[@Agridefense]

Once I built my RF heavy FOC arrows I wanted to see the results. So as a thermal hunter we dropped a pair sows about 175lbs each. And then shot their corpses with twizzler arrows and the RF howitzers. The results were well, RF won. And I don't hunt gel blocks at 2am or MDF board for that matter. 😊

[@-_-hi8964]

You are 100% correct and I have seen people that work for big archery companies saying exactly what you said. Cheers brother and thank you for being you and calling these wanker out.

[@brianturner8936]

Amen Brother!!! A lot of these people discounting heavier arrows for hunting are the ones not shooting their hunting arrows at TAC, they are shooting super light arrows for distance. So why don’t they put a broad head on a TAC arrow and go hunt? It’s because they won’t penetrate as well…….humm 🤔

[@justinbressler7773]

Fairy, You are correct about the gel target stiffening with more arrows in it. This same principle was used by the Aztec’s to build their capital city (Tenochtitlan) on swampy island ground. They would drive wooden poles into the ground, in a grid pattern, allowing them to build structures on top that would have sank. Thanks for great content!

[@d500mag2]

This is still used in offshore platforms to this day. Also used when driving pilings for a building.

[@IWouldTrustMe]

Today I learned this. From you. Great comment. I never knew that about the Aztecs and swamps.

[@RanchFairy]

You made me smarter and that aint easy!!!

[@WhatwedointodayOutdoors]

👍 keep up the good work! Ive learned alot from watching your videos. You can lead horses to water but you cant make em drink! Lol You and htp brought me back to what works. Thanks again!

[@rootnpearl]

Great observation Remember you need to shoot field points and a target because you will only get proper results when you can shoot 4 inch groups at 50 yards. (Chase the groups)

[@twl10101]

4 inch groups at 50, I sure hope this is a joke!

[@ZachHunts]

​@twl10101 it's doable with practice. I like to try for 1" for every 10 yards but I have not been shooting as much as I'd like after a move. High school me was doing that in the mid-00s with an early 90s Alpine.

[@twl10101]

@@ZachHunts I use to shoot at stick-on 1-1/2 orange dots on my target at 40 yrds. I did practice twice a week all year though, but never shot at that distance hunting. I tried to keep my shots under 20. I was no 3D or any kind of tournament archer. I just wanted to be good with my bow. I was consistently breaking nocks and had to place multiple dots on my target to keep from having to replace nocks. I don't know, maybe I was just lucky but I was always good at shots even with pistols and rifles. You really do need to be as accurate as possible because when your adrenaline is pumping, keeping your site on target is going to help you make a good ethical shot to put the animal down quick.

[@tonyezolt4560]

The "irresponsible lie"!!! Perfect way to state it. I am very disappointed with some of the very knowledgeable and well known of the archery community that represent that statement. I believe they know better but they just can't give you and Ed and credence and often use a great deal of sarcasm when even referencing the subject. A very common statement is "you give up 27% trajectory for 3% gain in penetration". That 3% is true when you run the KE numbers and that's what they hang their hat on. Very disingenuous.

[@RanchFairy]

@@tonyezolt4560 So I think they don’t know And they DO NOT LOOK DOWNRANGE But alas - I have! It gets pathetic with a twizzler stick

[@jonathansimmons4253]

The only difference I have noticed for penetration was arrow diameter. Micro shafts went deeper in my foam that standard diameter.

[@RanchFairy]

And the foam defines the test.

[@kylepawelczyk163]

Irrelevant to an animal because the animal isn’t squeezing the arrow. a target is squeezing the arrow as it’s moving through, your broadhead cuts a 2” hole before the arrow so there isn’t any “squeezing” going on when the arrow moves through the animal

[@MichaelLakota-vc4tk]

Yup, micro has less mass!

[@MichaelLakota-vc4tk]

Mass was the incorrect word “Surface area “ is what I meant

[@davidayres9865]

This is why I watch Troy's videos....he knows what he's talking about and he tells it like it is.

[@absolutearcherycenterrange573]

Lmao. He pushes his kit thru Sirius hard core. You are crazy if you don’t think he does this for monetary gain lol

[@davidayres9865]

@@absolutearcherycenterrange573 true.

[@Maninthebox88]

@@absolutearcherycenterrange573 Do you know anybody who doesn’t peddle another company they work with directly? If you don’t advertise you don’t typically stay in business/stay sponsored very long. At least with this guy he’ll tell you “you can’t go wrong with an iron will or a magnus, but I use tuffhead personally”.

[@TSNOutdoors]

I listened to the podcast that you are defintely referring to. Don’t forget he was matching the KE by upping or lowering poundage. So idk how much that changes things. But both of the folks in that podcast weren’t there to argue that your systems don’t penetrate more they were arguing you lose more than you gain and that for whitetail, what they shoot is more the proficient. Maybe I’m giving them to much credit. But I’ve shot your system and seen the results but I also see their side of things. Dudley says over and over again he’s never going to argue that fixed blades heavy arrows don’t penetrate more.

[@RanchFairy]

I wish they would CLARIFY repeatedly that this is a whitetail discussion. (I don't agree, because they are jumpy and people "miss" a lot even when their arrow is on target BUT the deer moves and changes POI)' Anyway, staying on track. These guys present half the data and let the comments run WHEREVER they want to go. Since they don't clarify, they are guilty of allowing people to be mislead. Until I called them out. Now they are backtracking and "clarifying" their position in my comments section. $100 says they aren't clarifying their posts on social media and making sure people understand that nuance. So, they are guilty of misleading everyone by not managing the data accurately. It's called an agenda.

[@km6731]

try shooting a half inch rubber mat and see what you see. i have hit these in the past accidently and my 650 with a practice broadhead penetrated much further than expected. The momentum carried it about a foot further. I was expecting about 2 inches.

[@rockysenatore9682]

Here’s why foam targets in good shape stop all arrows: the KE of all arrows are pretty much the same, and in a foam target, that KE is expressed as heat that literally melts the foam in direct contact with the arrow, and that melting action very efficiently dissipates all the energy. Now, take an old, well used, foam target and soak it thru and thru with with water and you will see much different results. In fact, you will see drastic differences in penetration with as little as a 25 grain increase in tip weight. Wet foam will not melt, and there for, will not stop arrows as well.

[@vincenaccarato5833]

Yes well stated

[@ethanknight3970]

there was a video you made where the bear shaft flew straighter then the flechted one, my question is what makes the best or better fletching material, feathers or the synthetic plastic ones? im trying to build my arrow set up and I can't decide; I think a video dedicated to this problem would be interesting given the different kinds of arrow set ups possible: the set up im thinking of is the Orion model, 200-250 spine, 32 inches long (don't bleed math with a 30 inch draw length) with either an aluminum or SS standard insert, with a 200 grain head. the fletching material is now my one concern given it's suppose to help the arrow fly better, and im left wondering if I created an arrow that can hunt anything in the US with a bow with a max of 320 fps being the arrow's total grain weight between 558 - 630 grains depending on the spine with 4 feather vanes and between 585 - 658 grains with 4 fusion x-vanes 3 inches with a 3-10 grain difference depending on number of vanes with each vane material type. I am no expert in this, just a new guy wanting to get into bow hunting with the best set up possible to ensure swift death and successful, ethical, harvest; I dont want to just injure my target, that is my main concern with all of this. Thank you for your awesome content too!

[@MichaelLakota-vc4tk]

Go mainly with plastic,then you won’t have to worry about the wet weather! But try both,if poi is the same for both put a couple of each in your quiver!👍🏻good luck 👍🏻

[@smau990]

The name BALLISTIC gel should hint it’s designed to simulate conversion of kinetic energy of a projectile into expanding kinetic energy of living tissue. Shooting arrows into gel only proves that the different shafts used indeed have relatively similar friction properties with the gel. Because there’s no kinetic energy absorption in shape of deformation in gel happening, the fairness of the test isn’t affected by multiple shots, they’re equally worthless and only prove the lack of understanding of the person performing the test. If you want to test arrows, you need to create a medium that simulates CUTTING of living tissue. Btw why some bad broadheads excel in gel is because they wedge the gel away from the shaft reducing friction surface. They’re designed to cheat the test, not perform on game.

[@robertkobres2504]

DRAW LENGHT in archery is the main factor in performance on live game meat and foam, shooting a release that gives you your max draw length is the archery hunting cheat code. Followed buy bow poundage and bow design (% efficacy). These are the reason you see so many different results in hunting videos. On the arrow side fight is #1, broadhead design #2 weight of arrow#3. This is why we tune the bow first THEN tune the arrow to the bow. It's not rocket science.

[@efngepic2363]

From personal testing, I have found even in foam, my +550 grain arrows penetrate 3-4" more than my good buddy, who is shooting a 420 grain setup. Roughly 20% FOC for both arrows, same draw weight and length of 29.5"/#70. I think an overlooked factor maybe the physical bows efficiency to transfer that power, let alone more efficient with a heavier arrow to transfer the force. I maybe off, what do you think @RanchFairy

[@RanchFairy]

@@efngepic2363 nope You’ve got more momentum. Thats it. Still doesn’t mean a thing hunting

[@rdjeffrey]

Thanks Troy. Love the vids .Physics is for real.

[@brkyq]

Call me old school. A spear body drives the spear head. Not the other way around. That is the important concept. The old Easton arrows (game getters or xx75) were pile drivers on animals. When IBO took over AMO the need for speed was sexy, I saw lack of penetration in animals right away. These days I still keep the arrow weight up and THEN match it with an broadhead yields best results in animal penetration.

[@camerannC]

Keep asking the right questions.

[@kend6875]

@ranchfairy I want to build an arrow for whitetail but I want to make sure I'm on the right track. I shoot 65 lb at 29.5" draw and typically a 29.5" arrow. I assume I need a 300 spine arrow and to get a decent FOC I need a total of 550 gn would this be a good place to start? Also, sorry if this isn't the way to message. I love the content BTW!

[@jesse4530]

You're in the ballpark. Just see if the setup tunes well.

[@driftlesshunter9200]

Mass goes up, speed goes down = about the same penetration. Simple physics! There's no deception there. A true test only compares one variable at a time. The test being bashed is doing that (arrow mass that also impacts speed is the one variable), but you also can't throw common sense out the window. A cut on contract broadhead with 1" to 1 1/4" blades will most likely out-penetrate a 3" mechanical Swhacker every time. Regardless of the arrow weight, it's silly to think otherwise. If I am shooting an average 60 pound compound bow, a nice mid-weight arrow with a good quality cut-on-contact fixed blade broadhead is hard to beat. A little extra FOC surely doesn't hurt. It makes more sense to add that weight with a heavier well built broadhead versus more insert weight. Rather than using a 100 grain broadhead with a heavy insert use a 150 grain cut on contact fixed blade broadhhead instead. I don't think a person wants a light arrow for hunting, and I don't think extremely heavy is necessary either. A good mid-weight arrow with a good FOC number & top quality broadhead is hard to beat. I do believe a heavier, slower arrow may help stabilize broadhead flight, but a person doesn't need to go overboard on that either. If you suck at judging distance & seldom practice, a heavy arrow may not be your friend. I shoot an EZ-V sight all summer long & never touch my rangefinder. Learning to judge distance with the sight is the practice for me! There's two arrow camp extremes, and I believe something in the middle of all that is best for me. If I shoot a Ten Point Nitro 505 some day, I'll look into throwing a small hatchet through a deer (like a 3" Swhacker). Until then, I won't throw common sense out the window. I wouldn't get my undies in a bundle over some foam target test, and I see no deception there. I don't hunt foam targets!

[@glennl9630]

Dudley taking 90 yard shots talks about perfect form I get it BUT when the animal moves during your arrow flight Ranch Fairy has a plan B when you hit bone!

[@EricRucker-sw3qb]

Hey Troy, Can you do a video on Deer Body language and when to aim low when you think the deer may jump the string? Also at what ranges are deer likely to be missed by jumping the string?

[@RanchFairy]

So, I cannot figure this one out. It is, in fact, the one thing in bowhunting that is 100% unpredictable. See this video kzbin.info/www/bejne/l5qrnWuYbMxgeJIsi=iswPR1O3TrDj9Hs8 Watch the animals. I don't know how I'd know. One of the deer in the video is just feeding in a field, no sign of being overly alert and gets out of the way of the Arrow. it bounces off the top 1" of it. I've had 100% string jumps on all my videos. Some of that may be the feeders I use to set up the test shots. They know it's a kill box, fair. But the amount of jump and the DIRECTION they go is all over the place. Some roll, some spin....it's wild. Quickly and uncontrollably, plan A hits become plan B and there isn't anything we can do about it. The animals vote.

[@MichaelLakota-vc4tk]

I do pity those who weren’t involved in archery pre mechanical times-they never had a chance-!!

[@ashleysmith4191]

Who’s out here saying that field point penetration equates to broadhead???? Foam and Gel is a decent test especially considering it’s designed to STOP arrows, meaning, if it can penetrate deep in a consistent medium that’s meant to stop it then at minimum in theory it’s going to perform well on an animal. Half an arrow on something like foam typically yields passthroughs on game. Why do all these people portray deer(in particular) as this mythical beast that’s so hard to penetrate? If you guys always said a water buffalo I might get behind you. However deer and hogs are NOT that hard to penetrate….in particular if you’re waiting for a proper shot and aiming where you’re unlikely to encounter heavy bone…this discussion is ridiculous.

[@ericnewman971]

The only person saying this is the ranch fairy. He is taking test data and skewing it to fit his agenda. I guess if I was out making money selling extreme arrow build, I too, would be doing the same. It's just sad that he claims to be a great teacher but yet he is controlled by sales, not the truth.

[@peterliebermann164]

Just curious. If light and fast arrow is ideal. What happened to the overdraw setups of the 90’s? I am no longer seeing anyone on that kick. There is a sweet spot. My guess is most folks would be in the 300 - 500 grain range.

[@ericnewman971]

We no longer need overdraws as bows now generate much more energy than the old bows back in the day. @@peterliebermann164

[@ashleysmith4191]

@@peterliebermann164 on a deer, light and fast will do the job hands down. More deer die from what Troy calls a twizzler every year than any ‘adult’ arrows ever. Stop buying into the over dramatization.

[@mikerhodes3563]

We have a foam target that we keep at my hunting camp. Different people shoot it and the penetration is always the same. My son and I kill a lot of feral hogs, some up to and over 200 lbs. My son is hyper about making broad heads as sharp as possible. He sharpens mine and his before each hunting season. We have failed to recover only two hogs and those we due to them going into swamps.

[@mlpjr42]

Best part about the foam test is they are just redoing the R&D the manufacturer did in order to produce the target for consumer sales. It proves the target will stop an arrow/bolt.

[@wrmartin73]

Dang it Fairy!!! Why you have to be hitting everyone with some common sense? Appreciate you bud keep up the good work! Not even asking everyone to take your word for it your just asking everyone to question why they are seeing what they are seeing.

[@RanchFairy]

Yep!!!

[@johnoswald68]

I know you don’t care, but I “liked” your video😅. Great content. Even with a crossbow I’ve went to a CoC broadhead and high FOC.

[@jdonez8347]

What do I need to watch for your recommendation on an arrow for whitetail deer up to 50 yards tops? We thinkin 467ish, or well into 600 grains?

[@RanchFairy]

email me and I'll help you [e-mail]

[@shanestout3543]

The people that are doing this testing I don't believe are taking into account when they start discussing the Ashby reports is that the arrows he is shooting is from a longbow and not a compound bow which I believe should realistically make the arrow fly faster and more than likely more kinetic energy so if a specific weight of Arrow from a longbow can penetrate through bone sufficiently to bring down whatever your game animal maybe makes me think shooting that same Arrow from a compound bow should have even better penetrating results

[@RanchFairy]

Sort of. The problem with the tests....Ed Ashby shot animals with hunting arrows. The exact thing you shoot....wait for it!!! When hunting. The Foam Tester Yahoo's let people BELIEVE their foam results are equivalent to shooting animals and do not manage the comments. I've pinned them in a corner and they say "we don't say this is equivalent to animal testing".. EXACTLY You don't say it! But the comments on their tests are allowed to run with the assumption that they correlate. Yes on compounds pushing heavy arrows faster and more efficient. Ed broke his back just as he was beginning to retest with compounds. That is accurate.

[@jameswilson5562]

The problem is matching speed with weight examples 400 grain arrow at 310 fps vs 500 grain arrow at 270 fps the light arrow will beat the heavy but if u shoot the heavy arrow at 290 thats completely different i hung about 350 lb hog i shot with a rifle with old arrow light and heavy wind new but old broadhead and shot it several times

[@Caleb-vy4kk]

"they all penetrate the same with a field point, on a foam target" The goal behind these tests is to keep the medium 100% the exact same. If arrow A out penetrates arrow B in gel by 20% (theoretically)..Then IF YOU WERE able to replicate the same shot on an animal (which you cant) with both arrow A and arrow B, then you should expect arrow A to out penetrate arrow B by 20% assuming both arrows are shooting the same head. You cant replicate shots on animals. There are too many variables. So hence why you shoot gel, cardboard, sand etc. If the testing medium is the same, then the results will equally transfer over into the hunting scenario. Try telling the engineers over at Hornady that testing different speeds and different grains into gel blocks doesn't give you accurate data because its not a real human chest cavity in a real live shootout. If a 140gr hollow point doesn't penetrate as deep as a jacketed round, then those results will transfer over into the real world scenario(if you could replicate a real world scenario 100% which we've already established that you can't)

[@SpearsUnclaimed]

Thanks Troy. Appreciate the work and common sense

[@andybriars9713]

a tensed muscle most likely reduces penetration as dose different densities of foam

[@davidholliday2703]

But still has lubricant in the form of blood.

[@buckfever4721]

I would be happy with any medium showing the difference between light and heavy arrows. Still waiting.

[@bbmas1930]

It’s easy. Miss your target and put a couple of arrows into your wood pale fence. The heavy arrow will go through, the light arrow will stick in it…….. if the light arrow doesn’t break.

[@buckfever4721]

@@bbmas1930 As long as the arrow is over 400 grains, I have yet so see a difference, all other things being equal. I've tried, I want to believe the heavy arrow narrative, I've yet to see it.

[@jeffwilliams6014]

Boom couldn’t have said it better. And Joel is one of those ppl.

[@patrickhaney7540]

Thanks for the great information. Exposing the truth. Keep up the good work.

[@jhuntley575]

Can someone tell me what channel did this foam target penetration test that got RF all twisted up?

[@ВладимирПрименко-о5б]

The test on the gel does not say anything there are no bones. The arrow should pierce the shoulder blade if the shooter is not very good and also the rib under it if the shooter is unlucky. At least. Hits on large bones, I do not consider this optional and should not take place. I saw a test on a deer shoulder blade, an arrow pierces it, I want to try to punch a moose shoulder blade as a test, and if the arrow after it pierces another piece of wood 1 cm thick, then this arrow and bow are suitable for such hunting.

[@sethhussey5804]

Watching all the hunting videos where arrows boink is all u need to see to know there's an issue

[@RanchFairy]

Someone NOT in the weeds. You're paying attention.

[@MichaelLakota-vc4tk]

Also I wish mechanical Broadheads were never legalized for vertical bows with out being certified with weight and speed addressed,yes I’m pertaining to the bow and arrow set up!

[@vincentnaccarato4733]

No one is wrong or right it depends what you have confidence in and works for you . However if what worked for you suddenly fails . Try Troy's Theory of heavy kills more efficiently and see if you like the results .

[@Jetty.bum7]

Foam targets don't change, animal's never stays the same and moves!!!!

[@bambam2533]

Is there a way to test arrows for force at impact? Forgive me if that term is wrong. I’m no scientist. I’m thinking of something similar to what fighter’s use to measure punching power. Floyd Mayweather throws faster punches but I’d rather be hit by him than Mike Tyson.

[@bambam2533]

@EdAshby Thank you for the feedback Dr. Ashby. I’ve made some adjustments the past few years based on Ranchfairy videos. It’s been a big help. Which in turn means you’ve been a big help. So thank you. I think a big hang up with archery hunters in general is the give/take variables and what is worth losing to gain in other areas. Penetration vs Speed being a big one, if not the biggest. Hunters want the impossible arrow that no animal can duck and no shoulder can withstand. Which means you should buy a gun.

[@sorenjensen8867]

Excellent Troy! 100%

[@kevinroberts9580]

I have seen a compound arrow with Broadhead. Go only half an arrow deep into a deer. And I have seen an arrow fired with broadhead from a traditional bow and get complete pass through. It all depends on bone, angle, arrow weight, arrow flight, arrow tuning ect ect...🤔🤪😜

[@Harvestlandtv]

So are you saying that John Dudley is misleading the hunting community? Or do you think he agrees with your comments?

[@davidholliday2703]

Don't think Dud was in the camp he was talking about. Dud is trying to help but he is an industry guy and is selling you something.

[@Harvestlandtv]

@@davidholliday2703 so is the ranch fairy. There’s no difference here except one guy out ranks the other in experience and credentials.

[@RanchFairy]

Ok, since you went on the "bought and sold for" chippiness and your comment is a flame thrower I'll bite. I don't know what John Dudley thinks about this and don't give a hoot in hell about that or any of the pros. If the foam and gel show 1/2 the arrow penetration. But we see, any arrow, penetrate greater than 1/2 the arrow on animals the foam data is just foam data. Note: the "experts" running the tests (not John) allow you to believe that you'll have equal penetration due to the foam results. Oh they don't say it directly. Because they know what the results will be and have an agenda to "myth bust Dr. Ashby". You are being lied to and you can look at your own hunting results or watch 1,000 shots on You Tube and see the penetration vary. Wait, I must have said these things? Did you not pay attention to the factual stuff? CNN does this too! Please start a free you tube channel and join in the conversation. I'll be subscriber number 1.

[@mr.skeptical3071]

Adding a little more weight up front definitely helps, but you dont need to go crazy as the arrow will drop big time

[@RanchFairy]

Perfect arrow flight with broadheads Broadheads that don't bent or break or fail to deploy Sharp DURABLE blade edges. Move pins. Man I've missed ya!

[@andysmith8295]

well, according to the green and black guy- everyone just needs to learn to shoot correctly, lol !! That interview was painful to watch, he did himself no favors and kudo's to you for hanging in there. I would venture to say that 80+ percent of all archery game shots are at 40 yds and in. But the industries long draw/high poundage guys shoot to 100 because they have the horsepower and desire to do so. They just cannot fathom why the average guy wants to shoot a 500 grain arrow to ensure his success is on his side. The gel is a terrible medium for arrow penetration, I would bet if someone took 1 arrow and shot it into a gel target, then used arrow lube on the shaft and shot the similar arrow into the gel-then you would see a difference. It is a friction test, no more/no less. Also, every bow is a Kinetic energy machine- you will get the same results at 20 yds with different arrow weights.

[@cajun3197]

Love the popey shirt

[@John-z8g9z]

Archers! Pay attention! This is the good stuff! 🦌🐗🏹

[@jeffbutler9902]

My question is why does the archery industry push light weight arrow is better than a heavier arrow, they wouldn’t hunt deer , elk, moose ect with a light grain bullet

[@joemisak7925]

You need the right amount of speed to weight ratio imho

[@corh2367]

I've heard them saying, "this arrow penetrated 11" and this one only penetrated 10.2" so obviously the 11" is better." What I've never seen is someone about the same exact arrow setup into a gel block 6 times to see is that same arrow will penetrate the exact same every time.

[@RanchFairy]

I have a gel block. It's super consistent. Critters aren't consistent. That's the problem. The tests in gel and foam do not match the target you hunt. The arrows used in Gel and Foam aren't hunting arrows. However, in gel and foam, because of the way they stop the arrows, you'd see very consistent results. No one ever asks....."how come I get passthroughs on deer but NEVER on gel or foam?"

[@corh2367]

@@RanchFairy I have a serious problem with your arrow advice. I shot my first doe with an adult setup. Magnus Black hornet head, 550 grains, only about 11% FOC, 270 FPS. (33.5" draw length). Shot her from the ground and my arrow never stopped. It's gonna be too pricey if all of my arrows fly 40 yards past target and I can't find them!

[@RanchFairy]

@@corh2367 My apologies!!!

[@johnd7215]

I really believe in what this guys says. Seems so obvious to me when you watch the difference between heavy vs light arrows.

[@karmas.busdriver]

Nobody actually covers the different densities between a deer and a solid block of foam, or surface area resistance verses mass of arrow? That's Brilliant 🤦

[@chrispalffy3511]

I added my 10 cents worth, like you, and I fully agree.

[@Caincando1]

I've watch a ton of Ranches video over the last couple year. And I keep asking myself, how has the ENTIRE bowhunting industry missed this. All the engineer, designers and lifelong subject matter experts. Like literally everyone one of them missed this. It's become very clear, that they didn't miss it. There is no way that and entire industry is wrong. My theory is the better penetration came from better tune, arrow flight, stiff enough spine to transfer all the energy and sharp broadheads. But the weight got all the credit, when it shouldn't have. The problem is now "heavy arrows" are a business model that will cease to exist if people figure out it's not the weight that helped. Which is exactly what the industry has known all along.

[@robertmyers7542]

So it’s not the FOC that increases penetration? Do tell…..

[@briancain4820]

@robertmyers7542 Total arrow weight and FOC are not mutually inclusive. My commitment was in regard to heavy arrows. There is literally no body besides this channel that is trying to convince people that a lot of weight helps. It sure seems odd that 1 person has mysteriously proven the entire industry wrong.

[@briancain4820]

That wierd that my comments posted with a different account.

[@Ughmahedhurtz]

OP's comment sounds a lot like someone that hasn't really watched any of Dr. Ashby's talks on this. It has never been _only_ about arrow weight.

[@bbmas1930]

You do realise that RF and the foundation are selling nothing in the scheme of things , just a path to take. The industry however stakes everything on sell sell sell. As they always say, follow the money.

[@african7498]

Anyone with real life experience will know that momentum is what matters - not KE. Heavier arrows with more momentum penetrate better.

[@JIM.......]

Most of us will agree that foam is NOTHING more than a target, but some of us will say it is possible to understand how it converts energy. Take all of Troy's claims that with the same exact compound bow; a 650-grain arrow will have a huge effect on penetration over let's say a very common 500-grain arrow, shot both from the same bow and settings. If Troy's claims are true that the heavier arrow results are large and not nearly as small as physics calculates, then even on a medium like foam we should be able to see some artifact of the energy transfer and see a quantifiable difference between the two arrows; or also like he now clams, we'd see absolutely no difference if we change the KE energy source as in turn up the bow's poundage or DL. Try this simple example and come to your own conclusions. With the exact same compound bow; shoot a series of 650-grain and 500-grain arrows into new foam. Let us not worry about how much penetration difference there is between them just to simplify matters. Do this a few times, use a scale when pulling the arrows, and average the extraction force required. Reshoot any arrows shot too close to another arrow impact, edge of the target etc. Admittedly, this is an artifact that only illustrates how the potential energy from the test bow was converted. Now do the same with the same bow with an inch longer DL and 10 lbs. more DW. You will see not only the difference on the scale, but it is obvious just pulling by hand. This illustrates more KE, Momentum, and Potential for penetration. Everyone should agree with the simple-to-follow physics example. So then, if a relatively small change in the bow, results in easy-to-quantify changes "even" in foam, then why didn't the momentum between the first two arrows in the first test also illustrate meaningful and easy-to-identify differences? We just are not going to take the same energy source AKA the modern compound bow, and somehow make "significant and meaningful changes" to energy potential by only making the arrow heavier. It just isn't supported by math. Edited to add: Obviously you can go too light with a shaft as the integrity of that shaft isn't going to stand up to impact forces without either destroying itself or just oscillating everywhere.

[@vincenaccarato5833]

I know no one is going to believe this ,. When I was in the speed era is hit a buck facing me at less than 20 yrds ! He ducked the arrow hit him in the spine and bounced off and the arrow went 10 ft into the air ! It was a 390 grain arrow shooting 305 fps so do I think if it was a 590 grain arrow I would have dropped that buck in his tracks ? I think so

[@True_flight777]

Heavier arrows will of course penetrate far better… that’s a mathematical equation fact most hunters are seeking the perfect arrow weight + penetration + speed combination ? A no pass through arrow doesn’t mean a no kill ? It actually does more damage inside the body cavity…soft bodied animals really don’t need heavy arrow set ups 400-450 is ideal 🤷‍♂️🎯 Now foc is essential 👌🏾heavy front does increase potential pass through shots ✅ I’ve killed goats with a 100 grain broadheads with complete pass throughs… yes shooting foam vs a live body is different however it’s also what you put upfront…

[@300blackout4]

Hinestly the thing that would quiet all of the heavy arrow haters is if Troy built some "bell curve" arrows with mech heads and had video evidence of a "bell curve" mech head arrow vs a n adult coc fixed blade test on pigs.... bring the THP boys down and get a few pigs down in the same night and do an autopsy

[@ericnewman971]

So you want to take the same bow. Shoot a light arrow with a mechanical broadhead and compare it to a heavy arrow with a fixed broadhead. hahahaah, that is stupid. Why test the outcome is the heavy arrow with a fixed broadhead will outperform a lighter arrow with a mechanical broadhead. See, I just gave you the results without ever shooting an arrow. There isn't a person in the hunting world who would disagree with what I just stated.