Helm Hammerhand - Legendary King or Legendary Fool?

[@GaryDeeks]

I wonder what would have happened if Helm let Freca's son marry his daughter. It might have helped their relations with the Dunlendings, on the other hand, he might be letting a traitor into his court. Anyway, good video as usual, i agree with him being more of figure of legend for Rohan, rather than a good king.

[@billychops1280]

They didn’t want better relations with them, especially not helm, he saw them as beneath the rohirim

[@ryancarter1080]

Sounds a bit like Robert Baratheon who didn't become a wasted drunk, great warrior, able to inspire his people and keep the fight going despite the odds but a horrible in any other facet in ruling.

[@billychops1280]

It wasn’t as simple as all that though Freka was constantly undermining him and even demanded helm marry his daughter to wulf, which is what really pissed tell off, the punch that killed him did set off the war but honestly no one expected him to die from a punch, and yes Rohan was invaded many times during his reign but most if it was unfortunate timing, not really helms fault (except for the dunlandings but the rohirim could definitely manage them alone, it was the eater king invasions that truly tipped the scales)

[@easytiger6570]

If you think you can manage an invasion, it doesn't mean you should provoke one

[@billychops1280]

@@easytiger6570 he didn’t provoke it, the first invasion was the easterling one, which no one really saw coming, and the second invasion happened because he killed Freka but I’m sure he didn’t actually plan on killing him with one punch, no one expected that, that was when he got his nickname anyway

[@easytiger6570]

@@billychops1280 So he thought he could beat his most powerful vassal and get along with him afterwards?

[@billychops1280]

@@easytiger6570 he wasn’t getting along with him in the first place, he wanted to put him back in his place because not only was he greatly overreacting by wanting to marry I to the royal line, but he was also a dunlanding with questionable loyalty’s and great ambition

[@easytiger6570]

@@billychops1280 So beat him? And what's next?

[@TimC1517]

Reminds me a great deal of the English king Richard I the Lionheart. Legendary king, loved by his people in his own day as the perfect example of a warrior king. However, by our standards he was pretty terrible. Wasted enormous amount of money funding a crusade, broke off his engagement with the French princess, insulting his greatest ally on the crusade, alienated his other allies with his lack of diplomacy, bankrupted his kingdom with his ransom, and kept his kingdom in a state of almost perpetual war until he died in battle.

[@aurelian2668]

He didn't like the English though, only the french.

[@lilboogie9812]

And he didn’t even speak English. It always interested me that he’s such a legendary figure for the English but culturally speaking he was more French than English. I’m fairly certain I read somewhere that he only spent around 4 months in England during his whole reign as King

[@blenderbanana]

The Normans were Occupier who exploited/rulee the native British, not "Leaders".

[@ShannonCarter55]

​@@blenderbanana indeed. People tend to forget that England has been invaded many times in history, displacing the natives multiple times. Romans, Saxons, Vikings, Normans, Dutch etc.

[@nevilleslightlylargerbotto1726]

People liked Helm because it’s human nature to admire strength in a leader. Killing enemies with your bare hands and striking fear into their hearts is always going to be remembered kindly.

[@Crafty_Spirit]

Haha I love the cynicism

[@nevilleslightlylargerbotto1726]

@@Crafty_Spirit lol not trying to be a cynic. It’s true. People will always go for a strong leader over a weak one

[@tilltronje1623]

​@@nevilleslightlylargerbotto1726except you don't seem to know that strength in leadership is not defined by muscle

[@nevilleslightlylargerbotto1726]

@@tilltronje1623 Sure let’s pretend most leaders of antiquity weren’t themselves highly acclaimed and accomplished military men. No one is saying all you have to be is physically strong genius. But you’re simply lying to yourself if you think physical prowess didn’t play a role in selection of leaders several times over in medieval culture. Aragorn, for example, wouldn’t have ever been taken seriously if he was some ineffectual weakling, regardless of how good of a tactician or orator he was. Same with helm hammerhand. He might not have been the best leader but he was certainly one not to be fucked with. And the dunlendings that doubted that found out the hard way.

[@tilltronje1623]

@@nevilleslightlylargerbotto1726 I don't know what's more impressive. Your desperation to strawman me or the fact that your assertions are disproven by Tolkien himself

[@rashgyl25]

can you imagine how inspiring he would have been from Rohan's POV? Here are these people that are illegally encroaching in our lands and ravaging our people - then their leader has the audacity to boss around our king , make a fool out of him and on top of that exert his power by asking for our princess. Rohan will never give any daughter to these barbarians! Then he fought a war against them for Rohan's honour and was a symbol of our honour and pride even to his last breath!!!! Patriotism at its best

[@Lightingwarrior]

In regards to the Dunlanding beating Rohan it is possible that the Corsairs not only supplied them with fighting men, but also equipment like armour and weapons, which would increase their odds when fighting against Rohan

[@DarthGandalfYT]

Definitely possible, but it would still be inferior to Gondorian arms and armour.

[@Lightingwarrior]

@@DarthGandalfYT true, which is why when Gondor sent aid to Rohan they loss but it would have been good enough defeat Rohan, since it military was primarily light based cavalry where they wouldn't be as heavily armoured as Gondorian soldiers and knights would have been, where Rohirrim soldiers primarily armour was chainmail, helmets with metal leg and arm guards and a wooden shields

[@untitled568]

Honestly one of your best videos (best one being the one called "What if you found the one ring") good job

[@Levermonkey]

Rohan's forces are primary light and medium cavalry with very little mention of either infantry or ranged weapons. If the Dunlending army is made of well drilled spear/pike men then it is no surprise than Rohan was defeated. Infantry trumps cavalry. The reason why pike men still existed on the battlefield after the introduction of gunpowder is that they provided a safe refuge for musketeers against cavalry. The bayonet was invented so that infantry armed with firearms could be their own pike men. If the Easterling's are employing heavy cavalry (similar to cataphracts or Sipahi) performing controlled mass charges (in the style of medieval knights), and backed up by mounted archers, then that would explain why Rohan lost to them as well. Rohan only seems to do well when it operates in combination with Gondor's foot and mounted infantry. This is mirrored in the real world and Tolkien would have been well aware of this.

[@DraconimLt]

I agreed until that last bit, but against other lighter cav and against Orc foot soldiers they tend to do well, and are beating the Haradrim on the Pelennur too (except for the Mumakil at first). It might be that their best men were sent against the 'bigger' threat of the Easterlings which gave the Dunlendings a much bigger chance than they would otherwise have had, ie. fighting mostly called up levies as opposed to the main well-trained forces.

[@LeHobbitFan]

Fascinating stuff! Helm does have that sort of mighty, brutish and undefeatable quality that heroes like Beowulf also posess. So for a people heavily inspired by Anglo-Saxon civilization, it makes a lot of sense.

[@Crafty_Spirit]

Legend, fool, or perhaps a psychopath? I wonder if Helm enjoyed killing people. I kind of want to see him that way. So Helm certainly did a mistake by not offering peace to Wulf after the 'incident'. It is sort of murky whether he intended to kill Freca, which would be a useful information to assess his character. The violence he dealt multiplied, and it accompanies him for the rest of his limited days. In other matters, the Rohirrim kind of deserved to be challenged by the Dunlendings.

[@alanpennie8013]

It may well be that he didn't intend to kill Freca, and was rather at a loss how to proceed afterwards. He didn't feel any obligation to apologize to Wulf, but on the other hand Wulf himself had not committed any offence.

[@Crafty_Spirit]

@@alanpennie8013 The reason he pursued Wulf was to rob him of the opportunity of avenging his father by killing him. This was very much a standard practice in ancient times, and sometimes the survivors were even morally obliged to pursue revenge. However, there were also Germanic law customs by which you could settle it by offering financial compensation for the loss. Tolkien obviously knew about this, as he references it through Isildur's justification for claiming the Ring. It could be that Helm at first tried to deescalate the situation and it is simply not mentioned, but for me it leans more towards Helm not caring for reconciliation whatsoever, which lets me suspect that he was aware that Freca may not survive his punch. It remains an unanswered question though

[@aurelian2668]

@@Crafty_Spirit Weregild, blood payment.

[@Crafty_Spirit]

@@aurelian2668 Anglosaxons do not take blood as payment for insults. They accept gold for blood.

[@DraconimLt]

@@Crafty_Spirit tell me you knew that's what he meant...?

[@d0lph1n63]

Helm could’ve used that private moment to explain to Freca why he couldn’t agree to his request utilizing both the oath sworn to Gondor by his forebears and the Dunlendings’ hatred of the Gondorians for past sins as justification. If Freca was such a effective vassal governing and protecting the Westfold he’d have understood that while Helm might trust him to guard the western border, if Gondor called Rohan for aide Freca and his son would find themselves in a very awkward and dangerous position: be loyal to their own people and break their oath of loyalty to Helm whom they’d faithfully served (which wouldn’t end well for them) or side with Rohan and earn the hostility or even outright revolt from their own people for their perceived “betrayal”; which could’ve seen them replaced by someone more malleable to Sauron’s will. I could see Freca apologize for his unreasonable demand and the marriage issue dropped entirely.

[@cavetroll666]

Can't wait for this and hopefully more animated films 🙃

[@DraconimLt]

What if the Rohirrim had tolerated the Dunlendings like they could/should have?

[@phoenixmilburn8759]

I wonder if Helm Hammer hand and Gimli would have gotten along

[@DarthGandalfYT]

I would say yes.

[@billychops1280]

Bruh you can’t blame him for killing That dude with one punch, I don’t think anyone saw that coming

[@DarthGandalfYT]

I would say that if you are planning to punch someone in the head, you must be prepared that death could be a consequence of that action.

[@billychops1280]

@@DarthGandalfYT I’m pretty sure that’s the lesson the moral the rohirim teach their children from that story

[@Negetive2digit]

LOTRO actually added a job class based off of Helm at some point, which is awesome. Kind of makes me miss the game but I could never really justify buying job classes in it anyway.

[@chrisamon4551]

Wait wait wait, where does it say many West-Marchers joined the Dunlendings during the War of the Ring? I don’t remember that? I do remember Gamling speaking the Dunnish language but he just says the Dunlendings are yelling “Death to the Forgoil! Death to the Strawheads! Death to the robbers of the North!” Also I kinda just assumed that Wulf and his men got lots of help from the Corsairs of Umbar. The appendixes make it clear that their fleet landed both in Western Gondor at the Lefnui and the Isen River north of there. That implies a significant force.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

"Beyond the Gap the land between Isen and Adorn was nominally part of the realm of Rohan; but though Folcwine had reclaimed it, driving out the Dunlendings that had occupied it, the people that remained were largely of mixed blood, and their loyalty to Edoras was weak: the slaying of their lord, Freca, by King Helm was still remembered. Indeed at this time they were more disposed to side with Saruman, and many of their warriors had joined Saruman's forces" - From the Unfinished Tales

[@chrisamon4551]

@@DarthGandalfYT ohhh hmmm been a long time since I read unfinished tales. I think I got west-March and westfolde confused. I wonder when the West-March was “conquered”? During the reign of king Fréawine? Or maybe as early as theReign of Aldor the Old?

[@Trigm]

@@chrisamon4551 Likey after the long winter, Rohan lost control of the already dubious province. It seems there was never a very strong hold on the area, and a weakened Rohan wouldn't have been able to deal with it for some time.

[@windsaw151]

Whenever I see a headline on a video or article that goes like ": - or ?" in 90% of those cases I say "both" in my head before even reading or watching it.

[@BrainDamageComedy]

old man strength is canon EVERYWHERE

[@runninblue9415]

Really good analysis 👌

[@DraconimLt]

Is Australia's equivalent to the Rohirrim's War against the Dunlendings the Emu War then?...😁

[@Disgruntled_Dave]

This is actually the first I've heard of "The War of the Rohirrim." After the fiasco that was The Rings of Prime, I'm not particularly excited to see any more adaptations or spin-offs. And the fact that it's described as an anime is even more discouraging.

[@andrewh.8118]

I have few exceptions on anime and the artist/director is notorious for Akira (1988). What the directors of The Thing or Bladerunner contributed to films, he did for anime.I grew up with the hobbit animation from the 70s and I’m sure he will be faithful to the books. Not too big on Peter Jackson’s storytelling,even if middle earth was impressive.only given “rings of power” 2 episodes worth of my time. Bleh.

[@Disgruntled_Dave]

@@andrewh.8118 That's a fair point about anime. I don't think that it's _all_ bad; namely, Castlevania and Blue Eye Samurai are incredibly well-written, well-acted shows with compelling plots and lovable characters. But those strike me as the exceptions. Partly because they are just undeniably great shows, and because they avoid certain anime tropes/cliches like childish dialogue and peoples' eyes turning into "shapes" to convey emotion in place of actual emotional expression. That said, maybe War of the Rohirrim will be in a similar vein to those 2 shows, in which case it could be the best Tolkien adaptation yet. I'm discouraged by the standard that was set by Rings of Prime, but I'm still trying to keep an open mind for the works of other directors/studios.

[@morgant.dulaman8733]

Who do you think would win, Helm Hammerhand or Corrin Thunderfist?

[@DarthGandalfYT]

Unfortunately, I have very little knowledge of Narnia (I had to actually look up who Corrin was). All I can say is that he also has a great name.

[@morgant.dulaman8733]

@@DarthGandalfYT Oh, sorry for the trouble man, I was just up for a joke, what with all the business of how they have similar impressive names for similar aspects. It wouldn't surprise me to learn Lewis borrowed the idea for that type of nickname and the character who might earn it from Tolkien.

[@DieLuftwaffel]

How the heck would Rohan not have writing/books? That's crazy, like unbelievably so.

[@SvengelskaBlondie]

2:47 "Viewed them as northern invaders" That's rich coming from people that never were legally allowed to live there to begin with, Gondor was just too busy with other issues to kick them out.

[@oscarernstell6214]

The chronology of the long winter doesn't add up. You have winter every year. You don't suddenly start starving because there's suddenly more snow in January. If you starve in January it's because something happened with your harvest in the year before. Usually when old societies in northern Europe starved it was in the spring, early summer, before anything was harvested and stores were running short.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

I'd imagine they might have started starving in Helm's Deep because they had to feed more mouths than they were counting on due to Helm, his soldiers and many refugees taking shelter there.

[@anti-liberalismo]

If I was Helm I would accept the marriage proposal, gathering the whole family of Freca at Edoras, then imprisoning them, spreading lies to the population of the Westmatch about a plot to murder the King and take the throne. As for the dunlendings, I would give land to them for settling in Western Rohan during the time so they would be appeased, and might even help against the corsairs

[@gavriloking5637]

Smart... perhaps too smart for the kinds of stories Tolkien wrote

[@anti-liberalismo]

@@gavriloking5637 the Kin Strife and the internal politics of Gondor in the next centuries followed the same way of thinking as my comment

[@aurelian2668]

Ah yes, imprison the famous and liked Freca and family in a lie and hope the dunlendings are fine with it. You truly are a genius of great proportions.

[@anti-liberalismo]

@@aurelian2668 what would you do then? Leave him to do as he likes?

[@istari0]

I don't think Helm intended to kill Freca or at least he didn't expect Freca to die from one punch. It seems to me relations between Rohan and the Dunlendings were, as they so often had been, fraught with tension. Once Freca died, I doubt war could have been avoided. Certainly Helm blundered badly in letting Wulf prepare for war and launch it when Wulf was ready to. On the other hand, Wulf benefited from having the Easterlings attacking Rohan on one side and having Corsair allies attacking Rohan along with the Dunlendings yet in the end they weren't able to bring down Rohan when it looked like they really should have been able to.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

Now I'm imagining Helm going, "whoops", when Freca's head hit the ground.

[@istari0]

@@DarthGandalfYT 😁

[@alanpennie8013]

@@DarthGandalfYT An offer of weregild to Wulf would have been appropriate. Interestingly Germanic law made no distinction between murder and manslaughter when it came to compensation The important thing was the death, not the intention of the killer.

[@alanmike6883]

@@DarthGandalfYT Hey Darth. One of his servants to him. 'your majesty you were only supposed to knock him out' 😁 Yeah a Italian job reference kinda 😂 What do you think would've happened if Saurmans forces attacked and took helms deep before theodens forces had arrived?

[@sbeaber]

I bet a lot of the West March of Rohirim supported Wulf. Perhaps Helm wasn't a great king and lost a lot of support which is why he was effectively overthrown.

[@blenderbanana]

"I will starve my children on White Mountain, before I contenance your mud in my straw." - Chad Hammerhand

[@feanorra8785]

We want more ,,Peoples of ..." videos 😀

[@shanenolan8252]

He was right. It was cold or exposure that killed jim

[@alanmike6883]

Bad king, great warrior and at least he died for his people. What do you think Legolas would've done having the sea longing if thranduil had died in the great war of the third age. Stay or go?

[@DarthGandalfYT]

Likely still would've left, but he probably wouldn't have settled in Ithilien.

[@alanmike6883]

@@DarthGandalfYT Would he select a successor or something? Otherwise the woodland realm would probably be chaotic without leadership don't you think?

[@Baelor-Breakspear]

I live in Florida and I don’t wield a weapon but I’m sure the weapons of Florida can hurt me

[@adamloverin231]

Diplomacy THEN war. Helm was crap at forward thinking strategy, but did fight like a madman making for an inspiring story. So yeah, value, but could have done better.

[@easytiger6570]

Steven Bradbury?

[@SunsteelAnorang]

Title of this video is supported by dunlending gang

[@gengisgio]

So you mean that Tyrion's idea in the last episode of GoT was right? Also, sorry mate. But the story I mostly connect to Australia is not Bradbury's (awesome as it is) but the Emu War... Nevertheless... THANK YOU! I was thought Helm was kind of a moron and a prick.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

To be fair, the Emu War is also a point of national pride.

[@Trigm]

@@DarthGandalfYT I'm not sure if pride is the right word...

[@tominiowa2513]

@@DarthGandalfYT What about Ned Kelly?

[@DarthGandalfYT]

@@tominiowa2513 Ned's fallen a bit out of favour recently.

[@tominiowa2513]

@@DarthGandalfYT Recently is since 2019 when then Pramac Ducati rider Jack Miller wore Ned Kelly tribute livery at Phillip Island in the Australian GP?

[@Kartal49ful]

Could the man of gondor make orcs? Of domesticate them?

[@randomelite4562]

Could? Yeah. Domesticate them? Lmao no

[@mikealexander1935]

Love the brick wall comment!

[@sayagarapan1686]

I thought it was Crocodile Dundee...

[@DarthGandalfYT]

He is not well-liked - more of a point of national shame.

[@pippinisawesome52]

Wait, wait, wait. Shadow of War did WHAT?! Oiiiiie🤦🏼‍♀️

[@anotherplague]

He was a legendary fool.

[@rafaelgustavo7786]

The animated series was supposed to show these two sides: a legend, but a fool who brought tragedy to his people. The problem is that they invented, in the series, a name of an obscure daughter of Helm: Hera. She who will lead Rohan's resistance against enemies. I hope they don't surrender to the woke world (an intelligent and victorious woman "cleaning up the political and military mess" caused by men/patriarchy).

[@Rauruatreides]

Helm is still supposed to be the main character since the last time I checked. There would have to be a sudden change for them to chose the other path.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

You shouldn't work yourself up so much over made-up scenarios. Helm did have a daughter - all they've done is given her a name.

[@kristenhawkins5453]

Interesting ♨now 💙🌼