HEMA longsword training tips - medieval guard positions work differently to post-1700 guards

What I've said in the video above is not very clear, and I will have to do a clarifying video at some point. Of course some medieval/renaissance guards - Posta Frontale, Posta Breve, Pflug, Ochs, Guardia di Intrare, Guardia di Faccia etc CAN be parries. I should have made this clearer in the video and I will do in the follow-up. The point I was really trying to get across is that in later period fencing (smallsword, backsword, sabre) the sword is generally held directly closing a line and is essentially already in a parrying position. This is generally not the case in medieval/early-renaissance systems (probably due to hilts and other factors) - in the early sources many or even most guards are positions of ACTION. They leave lots of lines open and you have to move the weapon significantly in order to defend yourself. But yes, there are exceptions like Ochs and Posta Frontale, which are closer to a bind/parrying position already. Thanks for watching

[@scholagladiatoria]

What I've said in the video above is not very clear, and I will have to do a clarifying video at some point. Of course some medieval/renaissance guards - Posta Frontale, Posta Breve, Pflug, Ochs, Guardia di Intrare, Guardia di Faccia etc CAN be parries. I should have made this clearer in the video and I will do in the follow-up. The point I was really trying to get across is that in later period fencing (smallsword, backsword, sabre) the sword is generally held directly closing a line and is essentially already in a parrying position. This is generally not the case in medieval/early-renaissance systems (probably due to hilts and other factors) - in the early sources many or even most guards are positions of ACTION. They leave lots of lines open and you have to move the weapon significantly in order to defend yourself. But yes, there are exceptions like Ochs and Posta Frontale, which are closer to a bind/parrying position already. Thanks for watching

[@zephyrbiscuit4547]

The four basic guards in german longsword Vom Tag,Ochs,plfug,Alber all do actually close a line. If you simply held your Vom Tag a bit lower and more upright it would actually be covering your face and you'd be telegraphing the attack a bit less(not that there are a lot of ways to swing the from shoulder but there'd be a bit less of a windup). Plfug covers thrusts to the left, or to the right, Ochs the head, and Alber is the exception(I'm sure you knew that part but people will inevitably read this). I don't know if you study different sources or anything of that nature etc. so obviously there's more than one way of doing things. Keep up the vids. Edit: 31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lvzw87e3XL1r3kwpro1_500.jpg - Don't know how accurate that is but it seems to support my theory. I was talking about holding it like the one in blue.

[@slowpokebr549]

Actually, that seemed a pretty clear explanation to me. It would be better explained if you could have shown the footwork as well. Love the training tips, more please.

[@singami465]

We're all waiting for Lloyd's comment.

[@JZBai]

It's interesting to note that there is a similar problem for kendoka picking up older schools of Japanese swordsmanship. Many modern schools of kendo teach "kamae" which are stances, but are implied to be static and cover a line of attack like the modern fencing stances. In some of the older koryu bujutsu schools however, there are no "kamae" per se, but the term "kurai" is used more often for postures. The concept of "kurai" is more abstract and relates to your body posture, the context of the combat situation you are in, and even the intent of your attacker. The postures in the "kurai" schools often pose a threat to your opponent while also being able to dynamically shift into a defensive position just like the stances in medieval longsword. Funny how such concepts are easily misunderstood across different cultures! :P

[@michaelvansise4887]

As someone who has taken Kendo for a few years, the Kamae positions never struck me as being static, or that they cover any particular lines of attack, with the exception of maybe Geidan which covers the leg. Waki Gamae, the sword his held back behind your leg, basically the Italian Long Tail Guard (Posta di coda longa). Jodan the sword is held vertically high above the head like in Posta di Falcone. Hasso, the sword is held close to the body, somewhat similar to Posta di Donna. Kamae are guard positions, not fixed stances. Of course my class always treated Kendo more like martial art than sport, we were never active competitively. From what I have seen of competitive Kendo, people very rarely ever leave Chudan Kamae.

Interesting point. Applies to Messer also. The main point of fencing from the guards is to be able to react according to the situation and what you are planing to do. You have to break the symmetry of attacks. If you have two fencers. Both cut from the right, nothing will happen. No one will have an advantage. So what Matt does is he takes it a step further by showing what possibilities you have if someone attacks. He breaks the symmetry and opens himself a free line of attack. Same principle as Zornhau-Ort.

[@ryandesjardins1228]

Thanks for all your effort in producing these videos. They've provided me with a lot of valuable insight.

[@ClergetMusic]

I've come to this rather late, but I still think this is salient to mention: I have just begun to study Dei Liberi's treatise and the medieval sword, dagger, and spear portions of Flos Duellatorum. I have found them to be very natural and practical concepts and lend themselves to be easily understood and practiced. That being said, I did have to come to grips with the fact that the stances he lists are not "guards" as we would understand them from modern fencing, but positions of POTENTIAL ACTION (I capitalized that because it is the important concept about Dei Liberi's stances, and medieval stances in general) from which an action CAN BE TAKEN.

[@hallo3heihei]

pflog and ox is guards that are parrying positions, but they can also be used start positions

[@Dhomazhir]

Thank you. This will help me when I speak to new fighters.

[@FireFighter214]

I was always taught that when standing in Vantage you should hold your blade straight up, and more in front of you. Holding the sword that way puts you in a better position to defend yourself, and keep center line.

[@nicktruscott6021]

From the guard shown would one step forward with the right leg to block or parry and then step with the left after dropping the point to thrust

[@dizzt19]

Yep, the movement is there also to give the weapon enough momentum to stop the attacker - as you said, you're striking the weapon.

[@MannulusPallidus]

For once, I watch one of your videos and find out I had been thinking about and practicing something in EXACTLY the right way, for a change. Good to know I'm not always off-base.

[@WhiteCollarCrimeDNB]

Lindybeige? I'm guessing it's Lindybeige...He just sort of makes shit up as he goes along.

[@florisjanpietster]

so in modern fencing the guard has a passive defence and in medieval/hema fencing all defence is active. is this a good summary or am i missing something.

[@DaaaahWhoosh]

What I've learned about guards like ochs is that you should imprint them into your muscle memory, but you shouldn't really focus on using them other than that. If someone attacks your head, you want to defend yourself while offending them, so you should throw an ochs on instinct. That said, vom tag seems to be more versatile for attacking, so I'd stay there for most of the fight.

[@MagnusMercury]

I'm curious if the "active defense" for medieval styles is due to the presence of armor for "passive defense", whereas by the time fencing styles were more common, heavy armor was rarely (if ever?) used. Obviously, if wearing light armor (or even none at all), one would be forced to rely upon the weapon and fighting style to supply more of one's defense.

[@SirKickz]

The "active defense" strategy is mostly used, I think, because the crossguards on medieval swords don't do that great a job at protecting your hands and wrists, and if you use a passive guard with your sword extended, it's very easy to score a cut to the hands from outside your reach. That disadvantage is removed, though, once you start wielding swords with basket hilts or complex hilts, where your hand is very well protected. Now you can keep your guard out in front without fear.

[@opmdevil]

Do you refer to Lindy's rant?

[@IcEye89]

Indeed he is and I find that hilarious. I like Lindy, but that video about Ochs is shit.

[@pupu6oi74]

IcEye89 link pls?

[@opmdevil]

some1fat MIght be iwqE9fEwCu0 You need to do some URL-pasting. Video is also titled by: "A point about fancy fighting stances"

[@NirrumTheMad]

opmdevil we're on G+ now, we can post links A point about fancy fighting stances

[@pupu6oi74]

opmdevil ok thx

[@Nekron999]

Is that an Albion Arms Ringneck (Oakeshott Type XVa) you are using for demonstration? Thanks in advance, I find your videos helpful!

[@scholagladiatoria]

Yes :-)

[@judgedeaths4032]

3:57 Shots fired!

[@CubaLibre200X]

Can you explain in a future video why the charged, "active" guards of medieval swordplay morphed into the more static, "passive" line-closing guards of later swordplay? Did it have something to do with the design of the weapons themselves? Is it just overall superior and so eventually people switched to it? Or something else?

[@Parker8752]

I'd suspect that it's to do with the nature of the attacks you were most likely to encounter. If you're duelling with small swords, the attacks are quick thrusts; hard to actively defend against but generally coming from the same location. If you're duelling with long swords, you have quick thrusts at your disposal, but you also have a lot of cuts. Cuts are typically easier to see coming and defend against, but can come from a number of directions. The guards simply changed as the requirements did, and while a long sword user may have trouble defending against thrusts form a small sword, a small sword user is going to have just as much trouble dealing with a long sword's cuts.

[@CubaLibre200X]

Parker8752 There's something to that theory. But it's not as though later weapons didn't include swishy cutty things - sabers, for example. But they still have the line-closing guards.

[@baileysmooth]

A lot of the reasons come down to more complicated hand protection on the hilt, and the reduction of armour from the player.

[@crikk23]

maybe not best place to drop this question but... i just bought a Hanwei Tinker Pearce Bastard Sword, now it should be sharp...its not all that sharp,but that seems to be normal with this sword(most ppl i seen sayed they needed to resharpen it out the box). but what i want to know is should the whole blade be same sharpness? i ask this do to the black being blunted some closer it gets to the guard(tip to little below mid its sharp like a really really dull knife(cant really cut paper)but from there it goes full on blunt on its way down. is this normal? or do i need to sharpen it? i can see why you would do this do to locking swords that be the area grinding alot, but i cant seem to find anything talking about the area being blunted. so not sure if i just leave it as is and sharpen it or if ill need to take it the grinder some, and try and work it cold into a "blade".

[@scholagladiatoria]

crikk23 Most medieval swords were sharpened fully on both edges from top to bottom. However, for the purpose of test cutting you only really need the end half sharpened.

[@crikk23]

scholagladiatoria thank you! just wanted to make sure i wasn't doing damage(as in if there was a purpose they left it blunted) of some kind before i go grind a edge into it.

[@enoughofyourkoicarp]

Ok, here's where I reveal myself to be a massive nerd but when you talked about "making an action", my mind immediately jumped to role playing games, so my question is this; is there a fencing role playing game out there somewhere and if there's more than one, which would you recommend to someone looking to better understand the mechanics and timing whilst learning at home? (Obviously as an ancillary to sparring.)

[@themantheycallPibb]

Look up Guy Windsor's card game Audatia. It is not much of an rpg, but is a turn based card game that takes every move and action directly from Fiore. I can't wait to purchase a copy for myself, and it seems like a fun learning tool.

[@enoughofyourkoicarp]

Chris Genzel Oh yeah, I forgot about that game, thanks.

[@enoughofyourkoicarp]

themantheycallPibb That seems pretty cool, I might buy a copy when it comes out, thanks.

[@thewolvesbane2536]

enoughofyourkoicarp you're welcome :)

[@guilherme95069]

make a video about different spearheads, as the one you did about arrows

[@kokofan50]

So longswords use guards more like unarmed fighting styles than some of the newer sword fighting styles: a safe position to attack and defend from.

[@SirKickz]

Kind of, yeah.

[@NonciclopediaForEver]

We meet again, mister Diagonal Strut!

[@Midcal9]

Flat of my Strong!! HA!

[@durandal441]

Matt so cute in this video.

[@Sfourtytwo]

So right Ox is a starting position to defend against any attacks in which i would use plow or left ox to defend. Yeah except for attackst that go for my right upper Blösse. But it isnt closing a line. Because germans dont have 4 guards that cover four lines of attack with the aim of absetzen. we do that as a starting position to move to other lines, not to defend. Sorry but this is horseshit. Big fan otherwise but this is arhm. Wrong

[@pradanap.m.3195]

I don't know about the interpretation you follow, but I've always done Absetzen to the four openings in Hengen positions that are somewhat more extended than Ochs (for the upper openings) or Pflug (for the lower ones). This is particularly important for Pflug since in my experience it doesn't really defend anything in its own right -- but is a perfect starting position for pushing the sword out into an Absetzen on either side, stalling the incoming attack with a stop-thrust to Langort, or whipping a quick Unterhau into the opponent's face (roughly in the order of how fast the attack is coming in, or rather how quickly I perceive it before it lands).

[@Sfourtytwo]

Pradana P. M. Well if your Plough does not protect your lower openings theres something wrong with your plough in my understanding , clearly for an Absetzten to occur you still gonna have to push the point into your enemy (except for one who will jump right into your point). The main reason not to lie in waiting in Ox and Plow is not that they do not close a line but rather that breaking guards is a central and essential part of the german tradition.

[@pradanap.m.3195]

Well, I suppose we can agree to disagree on that point, since holding Pflug very close to the body (as shown by the illustrations in the earlier manuals, which is the position I try to imitate) doesn't directly protect anything beyond the waist but _does_ allow a relatively small and quick movement to all four Absetzen positions. Holding the Pflug further out so that it does actually cover one of the lower openings doesn't seem to be supported by the early glosses of the Liechtenauer school. In fact, the texts speak of using the Pflug as an invitation for the enemy to strike to an unguarded opening _prior_ to the actual Absetzen action, not as the Absetzen itself.

[@Sfourtytwo]

Pradana P. M. I dont know a text for that would support that, please be so kind and refer or quote on wiktenauer. Talking about how close to the body the illustrations show plough is a risky proposition in a time when perspecive was mostly done by "well we will make it looks smaller in the distance". As i see it the only stance of invitation is the Alber. You are not supposed to guard anything below the waist with a plough - you are expected to do an Überlaufen in thoses cases. now for what i consider unsupported philosophizing: Dobringer tells us the plow is done with the point down, all Ox and Plows are called the hangings. I believe (like in unsupported) that the system started with lower hangings that where meant to guard the legs, but as overrunning was taken into the system the lower hangings became useless for that, so the plow was changed from point down to point up creating an way of defending that always keeps your point on the inside as to create an absetzen from every enemy attack.

[@pradanap.m.3195]

To borrow from Keith Farrell's translation of Ringeck (via Wiktenauer, obviously): "[76] You shall learn to skillfully set aside cuts and thrusts, so that your point strikes him and he is countered. When someone stands against you and holds his sword as if he thinks to thrust at you from below, stand against him in the Plough guard on your right side and give yourself an opening on the left side. If he then thrusts from below to this opening, wind with your sword against his thrust, out to your left side, and step towards him with your right foot, so you can hit with your point as he misses." Here the right Pflug is just an invitation, and the Absetzen is the winding out towards the left side. And the other Absetzen passage from the same translation: "[77] When you stand against him in the Plough guard [Pflug] on your left side: if he cuts at you towards the upper opening on your left side then go up and out to the left side with the sword against his cut, with the hilt in front of the head; and step towards him with the right foot and thrust at his face." Again, the Absetzen springs _out of_ the Pflug; it _is not_ the Pflug (or at least that's the way I read it). Nowhere is it mentioned that the Absetzen are the same as the guards of the Ochs or the Pflug, and the closest it gets is Dobringer saying that the Pflug is called the Schranckhute when it is done _after_ an Absetzen (not that it _is_ the Absetzen itself).