Hi-Fi VHS - The "Poor Man's" Reel To Reel?

In this video I look at using HiFi VHS to make stereo audio recordings and muse about VHS being obsolete as a video format, but that it could be the bargain analogue audio format...
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[@chinnyvision]

Until cheap digital recording became available in the mid 2000's, LP Hi-Fi VHS was how many commercial radio stations would archive their output for the mandated 42 days required by the Radio Authority. I still have many of our old tapes and even at LP, providing the machine wasn't hitting its limiter, the quality is actually very good.

[@andydelle4509]

In the USA commercial TV stations often logged their air feed for proof commercials ran. They initially used reel to reel security video tape recorders but when 6hr VHS came along they jumped on that. far cheaper and reliable than those old security camera recorders.

[@jamiey5779]

I did read somewhere that LP doesn't reduce audio quality of Hi-Fi VHS audio recordings? SP recordings apparently just use less tape overall.

[@chinnyvision]

@@jamiey5779 You are far more susceptible to dropout and other tape damage. Nothing quite like the farting noises of some dropout that might not have impacted an SP recording.

[@Defensive_Wounds]

Albeit a little bit grainy video, the audio is fine. I would normally record in SP mode for 99% of my things. I have over 2000 VHS tapes.

[@endoplasreh]

This was a well kept secret that I shared with a lot of people when I was into this format. I used to record music for parties, 4 hours of music on one cassette and let it play. Of course this was days before CD changers. On top of that, the quality was nearly as clean as digital, depending on the source. Back when everyone was striving to get digital quality music on cassette, I was recording everything I had on VHS cassettes. It was a mostly a convenience factor along with high quality audio. I used to call it my poor man's DAT, even though it is an analog recording, but a damn good one. I could not afford a DAT in the late 80s when they slowly started to get released after the RIAA Sony thing resolved. Anyway, I still have several cassettes with music on them and a few HiFi VCRs. I still play them today, even though I have a real DAT. I still think these VCRs are great and way less finicky than a DAT. One thing I did test was the quality difference between SP, EP and SLP. Aside from losing hours of recording time, I did not hear a enough of a significant difference in the quality to record at a higher tape speed. Could just be my subjective opinion though.

[@KenjiUmino]

if you share a "secret" with a lot of people - doesn't this defeat the purpose of a "secret"? it certainly isn't a "well kept" secret any more then. :)

[@artempriadko6974]

Incredibly low wow and flutter in VHS, no azimuth settings, no speed issues. HiFi VHS is the best sounding analog format

[@musmodtos]

You're right, it's essentially a non-issue as the control-track takes care of the micro-adjustments during playback, video-tape by nature had to be very finely timed for it work. I'm putting up a video myself in the New Year comparing various 'novel' analogue recording methods compared to compact cassette. I have a Panasonic AG-7750 sitting next to me which is about to record a test on to a brand new archival grade S-VHS cassette.

[@ET3Roberts]

@@musmodtos I always have to turn my amp down about a 1/3 from the DVD audio level when watching a VHS tape. The THX sound on a VHS tapes still gets me fired up.

[@KenjiUmino]

@@ET3Roberts i assume you have to turn your amp down because most VHS movie's audio tracks are a bit more compressed (and thus "louder") than their DVD counterparts - this did bleed over to VHS at some point shortly before VHS became obsolete. i guess at that time they just didn't bother to apply another mixing pass for the different media releases at least that is what i observed. while we had the loudness war in the music world and everything got compressed and loudened way too much, the exact opposite happened in home video. since the late 90's or so, the difference between soft and loud parts in movies is almost too much for casual movie watching at home IMO. i always have to engage DRC on my surround reciever when i want to watch a movie at night (or during the day even) because i usually wanna be able to understand what people are saying so i turn that thing up to where "normal talking" in movies is equally loud to "normal talking" in real life ... and then the talking is over and the next scene involves explosions and collapsing buildings ... and suddenly my sound system in the living room (including a 15" sub) rattles the plates in the kitchen.

[@lauratiso]

There's no wow and flutter at all, since NICAM is a digital audio encoding :)

[@musmodtos]

@@lauratiso Very true but NICAM was a transmission format, it wasn't used for recording on tapes, that was always done at FM Stereo in the case of VHS Hifi. NICAM wasn't encoded on to the tape.

[@TigerBoyRS]

VHS Hi-Fi is the ultimate analog audio format, accessible to all. No calibration needed, no bias adjustments, no noise reduction debates, no azimuth blues and absolutely no wow&flutter... Just high quality analog 20-20KHz bliss, and that's Hi-Fi! For vinyl recordings archive, home studio rehearsals, long play streaming selectas, or even as mixtapes masters. VHS-Hi-Fi is so good and soooo cheap today... Really sounds astonishing, great dinamics (>90db). An experience that any real tape head must enjoy. Cheers 🇵🇹

[@hafibeat834]

Sorry, the "ultimate" analog format would be Open Reel Tape with 15 ips. No professional used this format outside the video-world for a very good reason: The modulation that converts the audio-signal to HF - pls. see my comment above...

[@chrisharding5447]

Beware of long term corrosion degradation due to moisture, though...

[@sc0or]

90dB is a myth. People shared real measurements. For 0dB input signal, THD is at about -70dB level. for -20dB input signal, THD stays at the same level. This is unavoidable due to a decoder IC (which is not high-end in any vhs recorder). They don't call it "noise", but in fact this isn't a sound either. Of course it's far from MC/R2R tape THD, but those highly integrated ICs can have additional side effects (like dynamics, tonal integrity, etc)

[@LapisandHamtarolover]

​@@chrisharding5447and heat.

[@smartrain1]

What you did not mention was that VHS HiFi started the whole home cinema craze. Prerecorded cassettes came out with HiFi tracks so films had superb audio. Dolby noticed this and as many releases on VHS had the surround info embedded in the two HiFi tracks, they brought out a 'Dolby surround' chip, later followed by a Dolby prologic' one, for amp manufacturers to incorporate into units, creating the first AV amps. I was a teenager at the time and took advantage of this development, and boy, was it fun!

[@cubdukat]

Actually, Beta Hi-Fi had that distinction. If i remember right, VHS Hi-Fi came about six months to a year after Beta Hi-fi's debut. VHS HiFi did put that kind of audio quality into a lot more peoples' hands than Beta did, just by way of VHS' domination of the market, and between those two formats and Laserdisc, audio manufacturers decided that maybe they'd better take advantage of that. Interestingly enough, the foundation of Dolby surround had actually been around for ages; about the only thing Dolby really added to it was the Dolby part, the noise reduction. The technology was based on the old matrixed quad formats like SQ and QS (I believe it was QS, so they wouldn't have to pay royalties to CBS for SQ), so in a pinch, anyone who had an old quad receiver that could do SQ or QS could have surround sound too. I had an old Hitachi quad receiver that I used for just that. Paid virtually nothing for it because the owner just wanted to be rid of it; they all but gave it to me. Their mistake, my gain :)

[@ejunkempire2459]

I’ve used VHS for audio since the 90’s and just now it’s starting to come up on the internet.

[@sgtcreasegrease]

I'm here because I saw an interview with DJ Stretch Armstrong talking about how he would use hifi vhs to record broadcasts of the Stretch and Bobbito radio show on wkcr. Used to mess around with it a bit in the 00s. Recorded my cassettes onto vhs to free up cassettes. Now as a producer I'm interested in doing it as a mastering technique.

[@mrnmrn1]

Please don't bin the fried Panasonic VCR. Those NV-70s are great decks, definitely worth a repair. If you are not interested in reparing it or get it gepaired, give it to someone who is interested.

[@djsherz]

Agreed. Chances are the electrolytics in the power supply module have dried up - common problem with those machines.

[@mrnmrn1]

@@djsherz Unfortunatelly, nowadays these are much more problematic. They are not drying, but leaking and corroding the board. And often not just on the PSU, but on *every* boards. Pinch roller is usually shot, and broken loading motor clutch is a very common failure, and quite PITA to fix in this variant of the G-mechanism, IIRC you have to disassemble the whole cam gear assembly to get access. This one was playing well a day before it blown up, so it is confirmed that mechanically it is OK-ish, so it's a good candidate for a repair-refurb.

[@paulb4uk]

i would not either common for psu,s to go due to bad caps on panasonics quite a desirable machine i have a few panasonics a 1985 nv730 an nv f55 and a f75 i would not bother with the later mid mount machines there mostly cheaply made junk.

[@paulbarnett5056]

Could also be a fuse

[@lizichell2]

Watch ebay prices skyrocket due to the techmoan effect

[@stevesstuff1450]

They have been for a while now.... the prices shown here were from unfinished Ebay auctions; these decks go for a fair bit more, and have done for some time - between £50 - £100 quite often! Good value for a HiFi recorder, but still expensive for 'just' a VHS deck!!

[@MatrixAlphaCWX]

They are climbing. I grabbed 3 yesterday on ebay before they went over 20$ Haha. Mine are all Sony Combo Dvd/VHS Recorders.

[@MajorMacca]

Years ago the only way I could get a recording of the long version of Deep Forest's "While The Earth Sleeps" (with Peter Gabriel) was from the end credits of the film it was made for - Strange Days (Ralph Feinnes and Angela Basset) so I recorded it from the VHS over to my tape deck and was blown away at how clear and good the source was. Was pretty much CD quality to my untrained ears...

[@RayleighCriterion]

I used my Mitsubishi Hi-Fi VHS to record the top 102 songs of the year from the radio on a six hour tape with indexing. If I remember correctly the SNR was better than most CD players of the day.

[@hafibeat834]

No, it was far far away from 16 Bit PCM... It was not even better than a good cassette-deck with Dolby.

[@danieldaniels7571]

​@@hafibeat834 it was substantially better than any cassette deck

[@crankjazz]

I used to use VHS tapes to record from the radio too.

[@scottpeterson7500]

Me too😎🍺🍕

[@ahah1785]

My VHs tapes from 1991 play today just as good as they ever did in 1991...

[@scottpoerschke8807]

Still crappy

[@LatitudeSky]

Back in the old days, I used VHS hifi for copying CD audio. Had audio cassette decks but they couldn't match CD quality. But VHS hifi could come very close. And the VCRs and tapes were cheap, compared to DAT which nobody I knew could afford. It worked resonably well for home use. The main problem was having to play the CD into the VCR in real time. It took hours to record and hours to play it back. Nowadays, the problem is that I don't have a working VCR any more. Last time I moved, nearly all my VHS video and the VHS audio went to the landfill. Sad times.

[@gazjones4763]

I got my first dat recorder in 1999 for free. My college lecturer said that things been sat there for 8 years and never used. Just fucking take it. No way could i have afforded one otherwise.

[@Patrick_Roach]

Since I've used VHS quite a bit for two channel analog audio, here's a nugget of information regarding the EP/SLP speed. The bottom line is, the sound quality itself is basically the same. There is little if any difference. However, tracking is fussier. In audio tapes recorded at that speed, a bit of tracking adjustment on other VCRs is normal. At SP it is much more forgiving.

[@musmodtos]

Very true, essentially all VHS speeds will lay down the same amount of audio signal, but tracking, as you've rightly pointed out was a pain between machines outside of SP speed. I run a video transfer business and am blessed to have a stack of professional rack-mount studio S-VHS machines (AG7350/7650/7750) as well as a Betamax SL-HF950 Hifi machine too, and a very late stereo V2000 machine. I also have a very rare DAV unit (a relative of Video 8) which although digital is quite cool to play with and delivers fantastic quality for a 1985 domestic digital tape, 8 Stereo tracks simultaneously too. I'm posting a video up in a few weeks comparing them all for sonic use, the results might be quite interesting.

[@camhyde9701]

I experimented with VHS HiFi audio recording back in the day... it does work very well.. although for some strange reason we tended to use open reel / high end cassette decks ... I also have a Sony PCM recorder like yours and its a lot more portable.. it would be interesting to AB between a live recording between a Sony PCM and one of these

[@richretrotech9426]

Used to run a mobile disco in the 80’s. We used a service called video pool that produced vhs tapes of all the current music on a monthly basis. Used 2x hifi videos and tv’s. Sound quality through the pa was brilliant.

[@robstein67]

I thought I was the only one who used the hifi "videos" for sound only back in the day.... Nice video and a tri down memory lane !!

[@ObiWanBillKenobi]

I remember once in the days of VHS that our families favorite radio station was having all day telethon charity fundraiser, so I recorded a continuous six hours of it by connecting the output of the radio to the sound input of the VCR set to SLP.

[@marcelvanhouten]

For those interested: make sure you get a recorder with RCA in- and outputs (for line in and out), then it's very easy to incorporate in a normal hifi-setup, or to connect to a mixer. And no need to worry about any noise reduction! Looking back to living in Amsterdam in the 90s, I used a SONY SLV-E80 to record nighttime radio shows (mostly ambient house), relistened and indeed: re-recorded on regular compact cassette. The manual stated 80 Db signal-to-noise ratio, which was hard to match on a cassette deck. But... a midclass SONY cassettedeck cost a third of that videorecorder... Now I have recently bought a SONY SLV-E90 (which adds useless editing options, but also a display-upgrade and manual setting of recording levels) and I will indeed use it to record record playing sessions (I'm not saying I DJ :-) ) in a local restaurant. Used to do it with cassettes, but had to keep my eye on those, as the sessions are 6 hours long. On long play I will only need one tape! Prices in The Netherlands for a Hi-Fi unit are 30-50 euros, and upwards for higher spec JVC/Panasonic/Sony. So, in short: I didn't care about the all-talk video, I can totally relate!

[@Andersljungberg]

VHS-hi FI had a built-in noise reduction system. Which should not be confused with a Salora's VHS that had Dalby but it also didn't have the tone head on the video drum. And didn't sound as good

[@Andersljungberg]

Bruce Springsteen's first album was well recorded on cassette tape. or any of the first albums. They probably use noise reduction for cassette tapes without noise reduction having too high a noise level. Especially if you are going to use the cassette tape to create a commercial item like a Vinyl record

[@S7EVE_P]

I still love VHS. There's nothing quite like a 1980s episode of Inspector Morse on VHS, seeing all the old cars and quiet streets. There's just something about the lack of colour and gloss I like too. Never recorded audio with one but will have to have a go now

[@derekporter7658]

Now I never knew this actually was a format type!! Every day is a school day!!

[@Ashivlogzz]

A 90s kid would know

[@derekporter7658]

@@Ashivlogzz Child of the very early 70's. That format passed me by!

[@xaverlustig3581]

@@derekporter7658 What format passed you by, you mean VHS or the fact that you could use it for audio-only?

[@derekporter7658]

@@xaverlustig3581 I knew vhs existed as a video recording format, but not an audio only format. Hope that explains my post.

[@chrisharding5447]

Adamo we made that I still have the master VHS still sounds amazing. All recorded live, everything bleeding through everything else, but man, it feels like it's a practice in front of you. Desk recordings at gigs dint always work as the output has bn made for the f.o.h. mix So sometimes the output is all vocals or drums, or no guitar. I have many of them, but when you luck out on a good live mix, it's AWESOME!!!

[@tedbragg74]

I recall making 6-8hr music vhs tapes on our Samsung deck. Awesome sound - the vhs format added a lot of warmth to CD sound, and rolled off the harsh highs. Recently discovered that re-encoding audio to 24kbps HE-AAC+v2 sounds identical to vhs hifi

[@fungo6631]

You must be either using a great encoder or you're half deaf.

[@buppie2000]

Oh yeah, I did this all the time. The tape speed on a casette is 1 7/8 ips. With the helical scan of the VHS, the tape writing speed was something like 19 FEET per second. The sound was pretty amazing.

[@pancudowny]

Tip: Use NiMh rechargeable batteries in your remotes, like I do... It saves me money, and is less likely to make a mess if forgotten.

[@RyanSchweitzer77]

Right on--I do the same myself for my remote's batteries. NiMh cells are practically leakproof (due to their composition, I'd reckon) and you can give 'em a recharge when dead--no need to keep using up alkaline cells. :)

[@nsw9154]

i still have a JVC Hi-Fi VHS that i bought in about 1985 stored up in the spare bedroom with all my old PC and audio gear i might just get it out and give it a try and i still have the remote and i took the Batteries out lol

[@Xantylon74]

I did often record music on my HiFi VHS. The were better than most of the casette decks back in the days. Also because of tape size an speed on a VHS mashine. Much less tape hiss, you did not need Dolby. The old mono tracks on VHS were really bad, but the Hifi tracks were a whole other level.

[@kevinstaib715]

I first heard about this from Anadialog, and picked up a deck and tapes. It was so good and got hooked. No hiss and great dynamics, just have to allow time for the hifi signal to kick in. I've tried regular and hifi tapes, and I don't hear any difference. Maybe the hifi tapes are more durable. I use a preamp with volume control to adjust the recording level, as it seems what level I put in is what is recorded. I haven't tried the SP vs LP either because no remote, but have read it doesn't affect it much. I can put multiple albums of an artist on a tape and then listen for hours. And it is easy to move from one system to another. I still love my compact cassettes as the sound and experience is what appeals to me. I basically just love playing with all the different formats of music, from digital to analog to see what you can get out of them. Truly a fun hobby!

[@CassetteComeback]

Yeah. If this was expensive, then I don't know if I'd be this enthusiastic, but they're literally giving these things away at the moment and they're brilliant for analogue recording.

[@kevinstaib715]

Yeah, I get most of my gear through thrift stores. Don't have the budget otherwise, but its fun to hunt and see what can find. Well at least did before the pandemic. Not so easy right now. But will again when things are better.

[@fresita_jugosa]

There were actual professional studio equipment that recorded in vhs tapes, so it's not as crazy as it may seem

[@hafibeat834]

These professional VHS-Recorders used 16 or even 20 Bit PCM-Decoding. No comparition to "Hifi-VHS".

[@fresita_jugosa]

@@hafibeat834 it's not that simple. There were several standards used before DAT came and blew everything up. There were fully new formats like those used by AKAI Adam, Tascam and others, based on Hi 8mm tapes with completely different helicoil scanning and encoding that the one used for hometaping, and there were also professional VHS recorders that used the VHS Hifi tracks and encoding of the home camcorders. I can tell because I've personally used them. This "format" war was a craze from the first half of the 90s, very entertaining indeed.

[@hafibeat834]

@@fresita_jugosa Yeah, whatever. I used several (almost all) formats since the late 80ties too. But actually it's that simple: HIFI-Video is not a reliable format compared too open reel for it's HF-Modulation and wanky construction. And with 16Bit PCM - as the Sony open reels, the PCM-Decoders for VCR from Sony, and the DAT-Decks from the mid-eighties, every analog-format became fully obsolete. The format "craze" was long solved in the nineties, as nobody who could affort a (consumer) DAT-Deck used analog two-tracks anymore.

[@fresita_jugosa]

@@hafibeat834 Yeah, whatever

[@carlfuggiasco7495]

This idea was mentioned in Stereophile 20 years ago. I have over a hundred VHS HIFI tapes that are music only. It is a great medium to record music!

[@carlfuggiasco7495]

They actually record when at the fastest speed .....close to that of a hirez RR deck.

[@iixorb]

This video has just reminded me that for a year or so before introducing a MiniDisc recorder into my home studio, I had a transition period where I’d moved away from ‘mastering’ on a Fostex X26, to a stereo video recorder (Nicam?) - which had far superior recording quality over that old 4-track. I’d totally forgotten about that and now I want to find my mid 90s ‘techno’ on those video tapes!! I’d completely forgotten this 😂.

[@audioexpo14]

When I was giving up my turntable in the early 90s I transferred a bunch of albums to HIfi VHS. Sounded great.

[@thinlizzysupporter]

I used a hi-fi vcr as part of my home recording set-up in the late 80’s/early 90’s alongside Tascam & Yamaha 4 track cassette recorders. Great way of keeping partial mixes available that you could go back to, loss of quality over a couple of generations was far better than could be achieved on cassette tapes. I still have my Aiwa hi-fi vcr just in case the need ever arises !

[@bekbob]

Back in the late 80s and early 90s, I used my Toshiba VHS hi-fi to record audio. I had my Amiga 500 plugged into the video input and I'd make video titles with Deluxe Paint to go over the audio. This made it easy to find a song in fast visual search mode. My Toshiba hi-fi was from the mid 80s and was a beautiful unit with level controls and LED VU meters. I wish I still had it.

[@Netm8kr]

I've been "quietly" building up my HIFI VHS setup for a little while now. Very few peeps talk about this in my circles. Yet, I'm a HUGE cassette tape,VHS, and MD fan. And this video just gave me inspiration to refocus on this project. Now is the time to actively test it on my end. Thx for the in depth video, and acknowledging that this IS STILL a thing. Peace...Netm8kr

[@steveoszman8746]

Ideas are good and I left a box of VHS tape on the curb yesterday. Live and learn thank you for the lesson.

[@watershed44]

@Cassette Comeback I definitely remember different VHS tape formulations back during the 1980s and early 90s. If you exposed the tape itself you could see the different color shades of dark brown or dark grey, and more or less polished tape surfaces as well. They would even advertise that fact on the labels, sorry it's been so long I can't recall the technical aspects of what those specs were.

[@richarddavey9547]

The dead Panasonic Will be aged Capacitors, definitely worth repairing. Great video as usual 👍👍

[@thisisnev]

Agreed - having manual level controls will be a boon for master-quality recording.

[@mrnmrn1]

Nowadays, unfortunatelly there're much more going wrong with them. Some of them has leaky capacitors all over the boards, not just in the PSU. Pinch rollers are usually shot, either stone hard and/or cracked. Loading motor clutches also breaking in them. The part is still available, but quite PITA to replace in these earlier G mech decks. You have to remove the loading motor, and IIRC it means removing the cam gear assembly as well. If you misalign something there just by one single cog teeth, you are screwed. So yeah, definitely worth the repair, if you or a buddy of you can do it. But if you want a paid reapir on these, that will be expensive, because it's a lot of work. If you will be able to even find someone who will do it at any price.

[@thomasseb]

I did this in the 90’s on my JVC VCR. Even on long play it sounded excellent! I remember thinking why aren’t people doing this?!

[@izzzzzzzzzzzie]

I knew a guy who dubbed his cassette tapes onto Hi-Fi tracks to improve the sound.

[@joeystinks]

It's my favorite underground format. I used to mix my master 4track mixes to it. It was considered the Poor man's DAT!

In the mid 80s, we had a CD rental shop downtown. I owned a Panasonic NV-70s including full service documents. So, the project was, modifiing the FM sound to meet the highest standards. For this, I switched off the video signal and boosted the FM sound signal slightly. This modification got rid of the noise from the head switching, which is the only disadvantage with VHS HiFi. After this, I copied a large amount of CDs onto E240 tapes in LP. In the end, I had some 100 cassettes full with music. I documented it by hand into a notebook. At this time, I hoped, that there will be a chance one time to convert it to digital media. Well, I had to wait 'til 2003. By that time, batch converting to MP3 was possible via the Messer software, which divided the tracks. So each morning, after work and at bedtime I put in another tape. This took me several months. In the end, it ruined the old panasonic NV-70. So, for the last few tapes, I had to get another VCR. So, in the beginning, I started dumping it to CDs, later DVDs and then portable HDDs. And now, the whole stuff fits onto a SD card inside my smartphone. Minor drawback, still no ID tags since this has to be done manually. Instead, I scanned the pages of the old notebook and saved it next to the mp3s. :))))) Later, I dumped most of my videos to DVD just before the tapes deteriorated. Pew...

[@AussieTVMusic]

I used to put all my records on vhs and use it for parties. You'd get 3hrs of music non stop.

[@anthonyperkins7556]

Some radio stations used VHS HiFi recording to record and playback non stop music through the night when there were no programmes scheduled, and the recordings sounded good too.

[@michaeldibb]

One thing to note was I need a TV picture input in order to record the audio from the radio etc. In other words I couldn't just connect the audio to my tuner and expect it to record to VHS HiFi.

[@elosocano]

I had a Zenith that was made to record in VHS HiFi without the need for a video input. Excellent audio and used it until the processor went.

[@RayleighCriterion]

My Mitsubishi Hi-Fi VCR didn't care, I would record 6 hours of audio off the radio.

[@Evan2]

I have a couple JVC VCRs that seem to record and play happily with no video input.

[@mbvideoselection]

I used a Sony SLV-E700 and it didn't need a video signal to record Hi-Fi audio either. The problems came however when in more recent years I went for JVC and Panasonic decks with TBC. Those decks can't cope with audio only signals (even with TBC switched off). So I kept some non-TBC models to play back audio only tapes. The best being the Sony SLV-F900 which has digital everything except TBC and gives the most stable playback of absolutely anything thrown at it, video or audio only.

[@chrisnicol1644]

Hell... years ago I used VHS tapes as 8-track recording tapes... It's a shame it didn't last...

[@GoldSrc_]

Tape speed doesn't matter on VHS Hi-Fi, the relative tape-head speed is way higher than any other analog audio recorder could dream of, SP or the slowest EP it's all the same.

[@JoshGarsideMeyers]

Doesn't that only apply to the video head since it is spinning, but not the audio head since it is stationary like any audio tape recorder?

[@leandro842]

@@JoshGarsideMeyers no... the stationary head attend to ordinarie audio track. In this case we're talking about Hi-Fi wich uses the video track as well, in other words, helicoidal scan.

[@aspectcarl]

Great video 👌 Excellent job, you inspired me to get my Panny NV-HS850 s-vhs machine out and run it up. I bought it originally just for video editing as I had some original Pro svhs videos and I was into amateur video recording. But as it happened dv came along shortly after I bought it so I never used it for editing, in fact I put probably less than half a dozen tapes as we had a Sony slv 474 for every day use. I'm going to have some fun tying in with mini disc, cd and my old reel to reel. New subscriber too 👍

[@daniellcruikshank7922]

Another interesting video from the cassette guru I never thought about using a VHS for audio recording before

[@chrisharding5447]

I used to record all our gigs just by lining out to my vhs hi-fi from the desk. Still got them all, some mixes were great, I sometimes lined in a video camera but it was usually just hanging from the desk area..

[@Charonupthekuiper]

My first VHS of any description was a JVC. A beast of a player but was plagued by tracking issues from day 1. Recording several records and CDs on one tape was ideal for general listening because you could leave it to run for hours on end. The specs are impressive, and the format designers knew the original linear sound needed a big improvement to make the most of film soundtracks.

[@dashtesla]

You also have the SVHS standard, not sure how much difference the better tape/heads would potentially make to the HiFi audio and if they're basically the same standard audio-wise.

[@bloqk16]

I was advised by a video dealer sales rep about using VHS HiFi as an audio format for recording long-form radio music shows, such as song countdown specials; where the recording length could be adjusted from two to six hours in length. When it came to audio quality, the VHS HiFi format didn't have the issues of tape hiss (during playback) that's been the bane with audio cassettes since day-one.

[@cablecable2343]

In the late 80's, for about a full year before I got my first DAT machine, I mixed down my cassette 8-track Tascam songs to VHS-HiFi. The quality was very close to reel to reel- between the DBX noise reduction on the Tascam 8-track cassette and the nearly noiseless VHS-HiFi, noise was never an issue, even before digital multitracks (like the Alesis ADAT) and digital DAT machines. The quality was DEFINITELY warmer, with a pleasant lo-fi quality to the recordings. Listen to "I am a Scientist" by Guided By Voices- they recorded this song in a similar way.

[@Defensive_Wounds]

I used to use a 1991 JVC hifi VHS VCR that had a db meter with individual controls for each stereo channel, it had many other options such as smoothing and sharpening to make the video part better but the audio was where I used it like a recordable CD. I could record amazing stereo audio on it as is. But then came SVHS and DVHS which I never had, sadly... Also in 1981 there was a short lived Technics VCR that used VHS tapes to record audio onto them digitally!!!!! There are ways to store digital files onto a VHS tape today that makes a tape a large hard drive but on a long life tape. I regret throwing that JVC away into a bin in 2007 when it finally died. In hindsight, I could have fixed it! But I had 2x new Samsung Hifi VHS Vcrs... of which only one works now. 2:41 - those words will sound quite outdated now and even moreso in the future my man!

[@HyperBiker]

I used to record Radio ONE Essential Mix on Saturday nights on to my JVC D-VHS deck (which I still have) and then edit down to cassette (and later to MiniDisc). I thought I was the only person in the world who was doing that. None of my mates understood what I was going on about at the time. I was never sure I was getting the best quality of recording doing it this way but it was the only way to record a two hour Essential Mix without having to stay up until late to pause out the chatting between tunes etc. This has confirmed my suspicions. Thanks.

[@tjingboem5447]

i think SP means Standard Play? LP = Long Play

[@SeboDigital]

Yep! And EP - Extended Play or SLP - Super Long Play

[@Gary-Goodridge]

Ep was not common in uk

[@gazjones4763]

Its mad they allowed pre recorded tapes in the US to be recorded in long play.

[@Gary-Goodridge]

NTSC

[@geezheeztall8590]

Yes. It’s “Standard Play”, meaning default speed.

[@danielkerryann]

I used to make compilations for parties on VHS... even in LP is sounded good and 6 hours worth of tunes! :-)

[@sting64az]

Awesome as you say for parties...If people are drinking no one gonna notice a glitch in the music all gonna be booging down...

[@danielkerryann]

@@sting64az and no one could work out where the music was coming from so couldn’t mess about and change it!!

[@sting64az]

@@danielkerryann I think Tony's presentation was good and I haven't seen many others really talk about recording analog music using these relic VHS machines...I myself done recordings way back in the mid 90's when I bought a Stereo VHS machine....Don't ask me now what I paid for it lol...But electronics of this sort was still pricey...I done some awesome recordings with good results..The dynamic range was a tad off but still pleasant music nevertheless...

[@leostechnikkanal]

I have that NV-70 VCR too and mine did the same when I plugged it in once. I'm pretty sure that that fault is because of bad electrolytic capacitors in the power supply.

[@CassetteComeback]

That seems to be the consensus. It's 30 years old so...

[@leostechnikkanal]

The main problem with this VCR is that there (at least on mine) are very little ventilation holes, which makes the PSU really hot, and thus the capacitors dry out. If you have the skill to repair it, I would do so, but since I dont have the skill, mine is sitting in storage.

[@hegedusuk]

The original low quality audio signal was recorded in a linear format like an audio tape, using a regular head (not a helical head). The first VCRs recorded audio like this, along with a corresponding drop in quality when recording in LP mode due to the decreased tape speed. When “Hifi VHS” was developed, the “hifi VHS” signal was recorded by an extra pair of heads helically in spare space next to the video tracks. All Hifi VHS recorders also recorded the old linear audio signal for compatibility with older players. So when you play a VHS Hifi tape in an old Ferguson top-loader, it’ll play the lower quality linear audio track and just ignore the FM recorded hifi track.

[@CassetteComeback]

Cheers

[@andydelle4509]

Yes VHS and Betamax HiFi are analog but it's not the same clean simple process used in say a reel to reel or cassette recorder. Remember these consumer video formats ran at 1ips or less linear tape speed. You can't get HiFi sound via direct analog recording at that tape speed. So they they took the audio signal and modulated it to an FM frequency of around 1mhz. That was then recorded with the rotating video heads which equate to several hundred ips tape speed. But there were two major problems: 1) Because the audio FM had to share spectrum space with the video FM and color information, the deviation was limited. Low deviation with FM means more noise. So they fixed that by companding aka DBX process. The bad result was gain pumping. 2) The tape is only half wrapped around the video head disc. So to maintain constant tape contact they use two heads and switch back and forth between them. This happens 30 times a second (25 time in PAL). The head switch produces a DC offset in the FM carrier which is audible. It's very low but once you hear it, you will always hear it. In video this switch can be hidden between frames. Analog audio has no "frames" and is a linear signal. PCM audio recorded on VHS and Betamax did not have these uses because first, they didn't record video when in PCM mode and digital audio can be stored and written to tape in faster than real time thus getting around the head switch problem. In reality a good high end cassette deck of the mid 1980s would outperform Beta and VHS HiFi. True, the cassette didn't have the dynamic range or frequency response of the Beta/VHS HiFi, but it also did/t have the artifacts which many audiophiles found to be a non starter for Beta/VHS HiFi as a high end audio recorder.

[@sesa1076]

I’m all over this. I’ve always wanted a reel to reel, but good news is, I ALREADY HAVE everything I need for this! And truth be told, isn’t an enclosed tape a cleaner and easier way to go about it? No handling tape, no messing about with leaders. It’s like how I always though minidisc should be superior to cds fir the same reason. Aren’t cds like the most ridiculously fragile things? They feel like an unfinished design prototype. A step in the process and not a finished product.

[@matthew.datcher]

This takes me back. When I started recording shows in the late 90s, I used an old pair of Panasonic AG series HiFi VCRs. At the time I was told that HiFi VCRs were the poor man's DAT. I quickly upgraded to digital in the mid-2000s. But, I still have all of the original video cassettes. I packed one of the VCRs in with the cassettes just in case I ever needed to recover the data.

[@Derfikjegdig]

Would the normal Compact Cassettes be able to carry the same FM signal as the VHS recorder makes? Or is the FM carrier signal too far out of range to what the tape and heads can work with?

[@CassetteComeback]

I shouldn't think so or it would have been done. I think it needs a lot more speed and tape and VHS records helically.

[@Derfikjegdig]

@@CassetteComeback It was my understanding that the sound recording was done linearly on the lower part of the tape. And that the helical scanning head was only for the video image. Either way it opens up for a lot of possible experimentation (at least on my side).

[@Richard-bq3ni]

@@Derfikjegdig The helican scan is used for audio on a hifi VHS. It will still record on the linear track for compatibility on non hifi players.

[@Richard-bq3ni]

The left channel carrier sits at 1.3Mhz, the right channel at 1.7Mhz. So, no. A compact cassette cannot use the FM modulation technique like a VHS hifi.

[@antonelrotaru20]

I started using video tapes to record stereo music about 5 years ago and I still do. I've recorded video albums from DVDs or music videos with stereo soundtrack in Hi-Fi format and I am extremely satisfied. I have an AKAI GX-266D tape recorder but unfortunatlely I can't compare the audio quality with the one on video tapes because I don't have quality reel to reel tapes. Of course, I also record or listen to music from audio tapes or mini-discs from time to time, which I alternate with music recorded on video tapes. I own two Hi-Fi stereo video recorders with 6 heads, a Funai and a Daewoo VCR / DVD combo as a spare, bought quite cheaply about 5 years ago. By the way, cool video. A big like as always!

[@filipbarski6990]

8:30 old vcr’s can play the audio recorded on a hifi deck because there is a separate mono audio track recorded on the edge of the tape that was supported on newer machines for the sake of backwards compatibility. I think they didn’t go with PCM beceause it wouldn’t be much of an improvement judging by the specs

[@Oklawolf]

To add to this, some pre-recorded VHS tapes have that linear audio in stereo. Sounds awful in LP, and not too many consumer VCRs have the ability to play back or record linear stereo, but at least it was something for those who couldn't afford the good AFM Hi-Fi decks. My parents had one of those.

[@keithwiebe1787]

The reality is that the HIFI soundtrack could sound good but it suffered from occasional pops and try recording a tympani type sound and you'll hear the upper frequencies pumping noise which was horrendous. Not noticed on recording pop music but with live sound with low frequencies it was not good. PCM was clean all the way.

[@danieldaniels7571]

@@Oklawolf those decks really never caught on

[@HostiaRecords]

My das bought a 1985 Sanyo Superbetamax Hifi VCR, still works great, and makes a superb recordings, i still use my VCR/DVD combo and watch some oficial VHS recordings, has Hifi audio and still sounds amazing

[@R33Racer]

My dad has a Panasonic NV-F65 with Nicam and MPX facilities for HiFi recording. Amazingly still working nearly 30 years on, not sure my dad ever really used the audio features though, since he already had a Nak deck. Something about early 90's upper end VHS players that have something special about them. Maybe it's the VFD display that we just don't see anymore.

[@CassetteComeback]

I liked the NV70 for the few minutes I used it...

[@alanduncan1980]

I could hear no discernible difference between the original and the VHS. Interesting. I have a tascam portastudio that I use for mastering effects. I record to a Zoom r24 multitrack and master down to cassette, but I think VHS might be more practical and better audio as it's not belt driven.

[@sc0or]

Lows are filtered out on VHS (in this particular recording). Something like 80Hz high pass filter. May be it's a matter of a better output capacitor, or a higher input impedance

[@zordmaker]

Not poor at all. HiFi VCR runs loops around any RTR for long play performance hands down. We used HiFi VCR as the mainstay of radio broadcast transfers and logging throughout the '90s.

[@Andersljungberg]

There was some criticism regarding the noise reduction system used in HiFi VHS. Read something about it many years ago

[@Oklawolf]

Back in 1992, I took my first real paycheck and bought a JVC HR-S4700U SVHS machine specifically with the idea of recording audio with it. It worked out brilliantly... for two months. After that, it wouldn't record anything onto any tape without dropouts galore. No tech I brought it to could fix it, until I finally gained enough experience myself as a tech to dig into it. Long story short, the Hi-Fi section was out of alignment and I had it working in five minutes. But this was two months before I ended up going to DVD and retiring the machine, which no longer works and I couldn't get it going again this year. Good news, though... I just restored one just like it plus the next model up using parts from my machine. Both of those are flawless thanks to my old one!

[@greg1030]

Back in the day VHS HiFi would have been my choice, but my Revox B77 had pitch control, which I simply couldn't do without.

[@reggiebenes2916]

I record everything on my Webster-Chicago Model 7 wire recorder.

[@writerpatrick]

I use to have a teacher who used VHS for music recordings. Although this was at a time when cassettes were common. I also recall at the time people using (landline) phones to transfer music, where someone would play the music over the phone and the other person would tape record it.

[@markphilpot4981]

This was a thing back in the day. Like you stated, it never really took off like it could have. You might find the player/recorders on eBay and i’m sure you can also find the tapes. Thing is, I have two really good cassette decks I would rather spend my time with and lots of lovely blanks that are eager for a go with audio. This may work I don’t doubt, but I’m not doing studio work so I leave that in your capable hands. Stay safe mates!😊👍🏻😷

[@anthonybrunotheodd]

Tony, when you said you recorded the Top 40, are you referring to Casey Kasem’s American Top 40?

[@5roundsrapid263]

5:35 You and I must be about the same age. My father used to take me to the video store every Friday evening. He loved Van Damme movies!

[@Hornfancy]

Those Toshiba dual players suffer from timed obsolescence. Our district bought thousands of them and the vcr section literally died on all of them at the same time.

[@CassetteComeback]

Yeah, the old "suicide" chips. Now electronics are killed with updates instead...

[@Hornfancy]

I was flipped because it was the last day of school and my reward for a great year was to show my students the unchanged version of Star Wars in wide-screen format (only on VHS) but 3 different machines kept ejecting the tape 💔

[@mpmattson]

@@CassetteComeback Wow; how calculated. ☹

[@captkidd]

I used to borrow CDs from the library, and record them to VHS tapes, bespoke labelled and shelved neatly. The sound quality was unbeatable, prior to buying my first CD ReWriter for my PC. I VERY MUCH AGREE that VHS sounds brilliant for stereo audio. 👍

[@interstat2222]

Earlier generation VHS tapes up till late 90s were special and unique to each brand. Eventually shells all came from same mouldings but check out early BBC (SKC?) VHS, TDK, Maxell or especially the BASF PHG HiFi (up till early 2000s) for special ones.

[@senilyDeluxe]

I have quite a few reel to reels (that I have been given, found in the dump or bought off eBay) and the quality is all over the place. The budget models sound fair to terrible, the more high-end ones sound pretty decent (I have no machine that gets anywhere near what a collector would consider high-end), they are capable of outperforming CDs when it comes to frequency range, but the SNR is pretty crappy. Also no matter how expensive it was, you will, given the age of the machine, always have trouble with dirty switches. Way more often than belts. Way way way more often than capacitors!

[@CassetteComeback]

That's why I've never been interested. I'm not a luddite, I like digital too and that's how I would "master" record at the moment. My love of analogue formats is more to do with aesthetics and nostalgia and I have none of that for R2R.

[@erwintimmerman6466]

Yes, I’ve got a Revox A77 refurbished for a few hundred quid, but if you dont get new tapes from RTM, all existing tapes are dropout city. Otherwise it sounds pretty good, but digital blows it out of the water. I never uderstood “analog warmth” anyway, not with r2r, not with cassettes and not with LPs. There were some badly mastered CDs in the early 80s that sounded really harsh, but overall analog doesnt sound warmer, unless they confuse warm with muffled. However, flaws of the R2R format aside, if you got nice metal reels (those 10” ones, especially Maxell, BASF and TDK had nice ones) they look pretty darn cool while playing them at 3 3/4 ips. There’s this mesmerizing slow turning of the reels, which I like a lot. Sound quality? Who cares LOL

[@lukastemberger]

But what about the analogue warmth of VHS video?

[@thomasbingebo7872]

In 1990/1991 my band in the north of Sweden used to master on VHS for vinyl pressing. The studio had one of the first DATs from Sony but they sounded awful!!! So VHS was better.

[@Algabatz]

Got to love the Ocean! ;-)

[@mrnmrn1]

Well, VHS HiFi sounded good, but I would never consider using it for serious music mastering. Head switching and video sync can cause audible buzz, and the slightest dropout will make the player to jump to the liear audio track for a second, which is very annoying. This feature could be hacked out from earlier VHS VCRs (until they became too integrated in the late '90s), but then you will hear crackling and hissing when a dropout appears.

[@thomasbingebo7872]

@@mrnmrn1 agree. But it was 1990 and the Sony DAT was clipping when you faded tracks :) even if the studio had two great Studer reel to reels we went for the easy solution. It was not recorded at any type of hi end equipment anyway. The next and last record was on a 24 track and mastered to a better Panasonic DAT. These days the studio have better stuff and I have gone back into recording and releasing stuff just for fun since 2013. As a brewer these days in Gothenburg Sweden...the "band" is called A Brewer. On Spotify etc. Not as good as releasing vinyl. But anyway. I do agree with your point.

[@austincaldwell1]

Did your band every get the album recorded to VHS? Is it on Spotify to give it a listen? Thanks!

[@weatherman10]

I got a Philips VR6870 in 1988 and used it to tape John Peel shows while working the night shift so I could create cassette mixtapes. Followed by a 6 head Grundig GV 540 in the 90s. The British Library archived many years of complete John Peel shows on VHS and will on request digitise these for listening to in the Listening Room.

[@spooktasticaparanormal]

Fantastic video my friend. I still have one of these. I think i'll add it to my own analogue studio setup.

[@charlesloukas1946]

I am going to try EVP on VHS HI FI !

[@fhwolthuis]

Great video! I used to do this back in the 90s. Batteries from Lidl are great BTW and also made by Varta

[@CassetteComeback]

Aerocell? If that's the case, that's why I'm buying. I love Lidl...their Chianti at £4.49 a bottle can't be beaten :-D

[@fhwolthuis]

@@CassetteComeback Yep Aerocell. Using them for years and never had a leaking one 😁

[@aguycalledbunny5186]

I bought a professional VHS player with all kinds of Hifi features for a studio just for this reason. I wanted to make great mix tapes.

[@robertmcgee7083]

Back in the 80s I used my hi fi vcr to record albums and cds. Great sound quality. Would hold 8 or so per tape.

[@Andersljungberg]

however if I remember correctly there was a device you could buy for a certain Betamax so you could turn it into a digital recorder

[@jmalmsten]

As a bonus. With a bit of tinkering you can put artwork and text on the video signal. That way you can scan through it and see when songs change.

[@erwintimmerman6466]

One other major advantage of HiFi vhs, is that you can use it as a backup format if you’re also recording digitally. With digital recorders, there can be glitches during recording, or if the power fails and the file wasn’t finalized, the complete recording can be inaccessible. With a 4 hour tape on LP you have 8 hours, so you can just set it up and hit rec the moment you arrive at a venue, and let it run til the end of the evening with time to spare. It will record the rehearsal (always nice for some kind of blooper reel), and you won’t miss the first 2 songs because the engineer forgot to start the recording in time. If the power fails, everything you’ve recorded until then will still be on the tape.

[@joligrunlaub3412]

All of this analog recrodings had two main problems. The first was the switching sound of the rotating heads, the other was the inbuilt compander systems which tends to breathing when for example piano music with loud sequences followed by silence were recorded. A lot of this Hifi VHS recoder had no manual level control, only automatic. For the time the recording quality was very good in comparison to Compact Cassette or reel to reel.

[@MrAdeljas]

many of these HIFI VCRs have input and output audio RCA jacks, sometimes with a separate input/channel for audio, as if they intended to use the machine as a HIFI recorder/player since then

[@UHF43]

Those separate inputs were intended for stereo FM simulcast of TV broadcasting. In the early days, it was common that TV stations were still in mono, so they used an FM frequency to simulcast the stereo sound. Then, you hook up your FM tuner to the VCR.

[@Andersljungberg]

The Nicam Decoder worked well in two of my video devices. However, not on a cheaper Super VHS video from JVC. there were sound disturbances. Nicam was apparently also used to send data, at least here in Sweden. that was probably the problem. If the unit did not have a good Nicam Deoder

[@dougbergen8157]

Yeah love VHS. Thx for letting people know another use for there old players and tapes. I've done this for years.

[@xicomarquesmusico]

Thanks for your post! I forgot this audio record player ....

[@yanks1fan09]

You might be VHS Cassette Comeback now! Nice video. I have a few HI FI VCR's I may try it for analog recording. But I will tell you we had one of the original Panasonic in 1979 and the tracking drove me crazy every time.

[@CassetteComeback]

Yeah, but as there's no picture to track, maybe this will be easier?

[@Gary-Goodridge]

No it is not.

[@xsc1000]

@@CassetteComeback VHS HiFi track is recorded the same way as picture by rotating heads. So good tracking is necessary.

[@alanh8863]

Great video as usual Tony. This video brought back a ton of memories as I used my Radio Shack HI-Fi VHS to make extended DJ mix tapes. I actually still have my mix tape of party music I made for my wedding. Unfortunately, I've loaned out my only working VHS HiFi deck.

[@alanh8863]

IIRC, my Radio Shack HiFi deck ran from 80-20,000kHz vs 20-20,000kHz. I don't remember much in the way of low-end bass loss, which probably had more to due with owning really bad speakers. Sounds like a new video idea.

[@jitmancanth6698]

For archive purposes it's a great solution, regular playback not so much. While not audio, I wore out plenty of VHS movies through playback, and a couple fell victim to the dreaded 'chewed up in the machine' syndrome. Some tapes developed weird vertical bumps that played back as a rolling horizontal white line and crackled audio. There was that brief period where VHS was also used for computer back-ups, back when hard drives were still single digit gigabyte platters. A lot more versatile technology than just time-shifting Eastenders back in the day