Hidden Details in Age of Mythology: Retold Gameplay - Pop, Favour, Myths, Norse Vills, Comparisons

[@thethunderbird4844]

finally, i was looking for a video like this

[@BlackAddersPlays]

Well, hopefully it was useful :-)

[@zonetropper]

In de3 damage works with lot of dependency on multipliers versus the unit type. Aoe3 does not include natural armor types just resistances and only to one damage source. So while in code, Musketeer has both a hand attack(melee) and a ranged attack resistance(pierce), the game only shows the highest one while the other is effectively 0 or something over 0 but not greater than 0.20. Due to this change, the damage in retold will seem to reflect this in calculating the damage value you see on the UI. Aoe3 has no DPS value like aom and the value is tied to every animation sequence to complete the attack. I agree about attack priority, it was not enough to have auto-economy, now we have auto micro. This is gonna teach players really bad habits compared to Voobly and even EE. Players in Aoe3/Tad/De3 use a "semi exploit" where they delete the wall connector nodes so damage is not shared between the wall segments, I believe the reason why walls are nerfed so much is to adhere to the policy De3 did to discourage this wall issue. I don't also get the idea to nerf the walls, De3 buffed Walls from 1000hp to 1500hp so they had no reason to nerf them to 300. Or there is a change where Stone Walls that are automatically given to Eggy is staggered or works differently when the hp value comes in, or triggers are not doing their job(in aoe3 you have to manually assign shadowtechs for some things from the start of the game to reflect the "bonuses" of the civ you are playing), or this is the easiest difficulty and there is a direct modify protounit trigger that nerfs the wall to nullify the upgrade to 1200(we don't know the difficulty). Different patches for Teamgames/Gamemodes/1v1s is not really alien or bad to say. Even the most popular rts out there that is sc2 has a dedicated patch setting for the campaign that differs from the standard PvP. That way the new players can experience the game going in and be aware when transitioning that the strategies and builds they've got accustomed to do will not fly on ladder or 1v1. Coop can be considered the same situation due to the coop commanders getting abilities and units not available to the standard roaster. Specifically Teamgames balance differing from 1v1s is in some aoe3 circles and in the games: Empire Earth 1 and Rise of Nations but the last 2 have a very small playerbase to consider that experiment as a success but also not a causation that it makes the game difficult to learn. Norse villagers building a house does rob some of the asymmetric identity from Norse, but I don't exactly mind the change for the gameplay. Instead of keeping military units around the tc and having to pay for ulfsark change, you skip that. Norse military stays to where fights happen and ulfsark cost can go to other things. Pushing mechanic is very foreign to aoe games, that usually happens in Warcraft/Starcraft. Prevents the blocking micromanagement that even in de3 works as intended from aoe3tad where you can block units fleeing as to keep the snare going.

[@BlackAddersPlays]

Thanks for the info on AoE3DE, so what we see with the units is then damage per hit, meaning for AoM DPS, we need to divide the number by the attack animation length, I think as we somewhat surmised, okay. If those buttons are truly supposed to be auto-micro, it's terrible, because that's the basic skill-differentiation in battles, cannot really believe they would even have that idea (or I can understand it from casual point of view, but on any second view it must be seeming outlandish). Interesting with the walls, there is a different exploit on gates in AoM, but it's frowned upon, because it's kind of obviously broken, here I more lean on the side of it being a bug, as when we look at a Gate later, it seems to have approximately correct numbers, so maybe it's just a bug with the upgrade not applying to walls (there are some other questionable moments that could be bugs, but also design decisions, so who knows). Walls are imo in the best spot in AoM of the competitive AoE games. Different patches imo kind of mean your design is flawed, so I guess somewhere it might be necessity to even get a playable game, but I don't really think it's the case in AoM, you sure do get some ridiculous situations, but well that's kind of the point of Age of Mythology, to have overpowered things (and supposedly that's what majority of even competitive people want, based on the years of community patching feedback - which is though always sketchy to take seriously due to personal interests of the respondents), and team games, so multiple, exacerbates it of course. However, campaign on different versions is not necessarily a case of this, more that it would break with changes - this is typically the case with AoEIV, where the game is kind of hilariously different in campaign to current state of things in multiplayer. But thanks for the insight into the different games. Norse Vills still could be an unfinished thing from earlier build, same as on the same game you have Eggy Temple with evidently praying mechanism as for Greeks (shows infinite Favour, icon for calling Villagers to work/pray? there), or some samification of the civs, which would be really bad direction. It would be a very important change to gameplay, because it is a purposeful negative to giving Norse the ability to build bases anywhere with soldiers - it's the same reason Greeks don't have healing, because they have strong units, Norse are able to be incredibly mobile, and as such need something to be removed from them, cannot just give them bonuses atop of everything. House management is a very important (yet still underused by opponents) tactical part of their gameplay. We can see how soldier-building can be problematic added on top of samish base in AoEIV with Delhi, it's been a contention point at times and not sure if it still isn't. The pushing is very weird, yeah, it basically means way different micro and things to learn, and again, how it can be problematic was shown in AoEIV with Priest Conversion pushing. Thanks for the info it's not in AoEIII, I played it 20 years ago competitively, and that's too long to remember :-) Wonder if you'll be able to push Titan :D

[@TheGuardianofAzarath]

These are definitely early builds, so the monument favour generation rate verses unit favour cost likely isn't finalised, same with the walls and gate health. They might show us new footage from a more recent build at gamescom (august 21st-25th) What new abilities are Set and Kronos getting? In the current game, Kronos' passive ability is making myth units cheaper, and set grants cost and attack bonuses to units and buildings currently. I was kinda hoping they'd add fire damage to buildings and units (particularly ships and seige weapons, but also human units), I know Rise and Fall and the Stronghold games have that mechanic. I also really wish they would have given us the ability to put units on walls, Age 4 was the first game in the series to finally do it, yet other rts games have been doing it for 20 years.

[@BlackAddersPlays]

It very much seems there are different builds, I believe the campaign one to be newer, but I wouldn't necessarily go out to say they (or the campaign one at least)'re not representative, they should be having such design decisions already implemented, I mean like designers have no other job to do, most of the heavy lifting is on programmers and graphics. So the general idea should probably be already there, and that's why they're even showing it. Sure it can be and will be tuned. Problem is their design decisions specifically regarding Favour directly clash, they want to make Myth Units more available and better, and at the same time put Favour cost on another top-promoted feature, the God Powers - but you cannot have both realistically in the game, unless you would completely overtune the Favour to the point of it not being a cost. So you'll most likely have to choose, and unless you make the God Powers really affordable (and therefore probably quite broken gameplay-wise), you might want to prefer Myth Units for their more immediate, and increased it seems, effect. And so you won't have Favour for GPs. Sure there will GP strats without Myths, but, you see the problem of these two things being on one side of the scales. About the new abilities, seems Kronos is getting Temporal Scaffolding based on the video from February, area of effect from Manor and maybe other buildings (looks like TC as well based on screenshot) speeding construction of other buildings nearby, Isis is losing Pop Slot bonus, and Set's is anyone's guess, just looks like maybe tied to Monument area of effect, and somehow improving production rate? Cost? Of military buildings, or maybe it was some negative effect or God Power, who knows. Well I was thinking maybe there are going to be interactions between God Powers like Rain dousing Forest Fire and such, but that would have deep consequences, so would be better suited for a new game, otherwise was hoping for every god having his own Titan, unfortunately they cheapened out on that :-/ So there would be always some other things to add (btw fire from Flaming Weapons would probably be quite annoying :d Units running around like arsons on every building :d). Units on walls is a dangerous mechanism and doesn't fit with AoE design well, it is a problem in AoEIV competitively that was requiring several patches since it's quite abusable. But I understand it's cool in not fully competitive setting, as plenty things are, and AoM, and the devs now, are kind of leaning into it.

[@TheGuardianofAzarath]

@@BlackAddersPlays Well, they announced earlier today on their website and discord that there will be a closed beta test over the weekend (starting friday 5pm uk time) for those who pre-ordered the premium edition, no NDAs, so we can stream/capture/descuss what is in it. Apparently it's the first 5 missions of the FOTT campaign and the 3 original civs, Greeks/Norse/Egyptians for skirmish play. They're also planning a public beta test at a later date. As for them changing the titans, I really wish they'd made Cerberus an actual dog, changed the Egyptian titan to maybe Apep or Sobek (Horus really doesn't make sense) changed the Norse titan to Surtr and the Atlantean titan to Typhon, but it is what it is. At least they can cross water now though, so that's something.

[@BlackAddersPlays]

Yeah I've seen, so we'll have answers soon, there are many things that could've deserved tuning, they chose some to more adhere to the true mythology, which is nice, but with such a project, more could've been done, when they're already doing it and not just skimming the surface.

[@Bu11yMagu1re]

The norse vil building a house could likely mean the new building is capable of supporting pop along with training units perhaps. That or its a programming goof and they somehow havent removed the building ability of Norse vils yet. Best explanations I have.

[@kingpietro1279]

its for generating favor because the norse can only gain favor through fighting

[@Bu11yMagu1re]

@@kingpietro1279idk maybe. But to a far lesser extent than fighting. Likely a multi purpose building.

[@BlackAddersPlays]

Tough to say, there is a theory the new building is another military training one for the spearmen that seem to be coming (and maybe something more moved there), Mead Hall is being thrown around, it seems to be having a lot of foodstuffs around it, so maybe would make sense, and maybe it's somehow connected to Freyr because of that, who knows. That it could be bug is very well possible, because it seems the Egyptian Temple in the Ra Alfheim showcase is having icon for sending Villagers to it (like the Gold Mine), which there is no purpose for now (unless something changed), except for Greeks (or is everyone going to be able to gather Favour at Temple? It's weirdly having that infinite Favour sign there), so maybe it's that seeping through and not taken care of - there also seems to be possible bug with Wall upgrade, so there will be mistakes. Or it's simply the reaction to the increased Houses and there being a general thought around over the years that this would be a useful addition (I don't agree). ​@kingpietro1279 Considering Norse have the potential to be seriously broken with their current way of gathering Favour, not sure they would need bonus, but it is possible, we don't know how they changed things, and they certainly changed for example God Boni a lot.

[@kingpietro1279]

​@@BlackAddersPlays norse favor isn't constant you ca only control it tohrough fighting tis can be a big downside if yo you trying to boom for example. early techs are difficult to get because of low favor.

[@BlackAddersPlays]

@@kingpietro1279 It's not a problem for experienced players, you just have to account for it in your gameplay, plus you get Favour from Hunt - yeah, they're not meant to be turtling, as opposed to Eggies, but they are actually still the best boom civ in the game.