HIGH END Discussion round: “Has vinyl playback technology gone about as far as it can go?

[@maurice4407]

Probably the best video for a while on youtube on this subject! Great discussion. Unfortunatley some of the solutions will always be reserved for the super rich.

[@larrycasey3587]

Excellent presentation. I have had Mr. Trei come to the house and he did a great job setting up my tonearm and cartridge. I also sent my cartridge to Wally Tools for evaluation and had a shim made. After installation my Ortofon cartridge just sings. I am extremely impressed with Wally Tools and Mr. Boisclair's expertise.

[@markblock8659]

Great discussion. Thanks. I would typically do a lot of fast-forwarding in an hour-long discussion, but this was fascinating all the way.

[@oldschoolaudioenthusiast]

This was a truly exceptional discussion amongst Analog Vinyl experts in the industry. The concepts addressed as to ways to continue to advance the technology including observations in respect to the challenges faced extracting all the information that's in the groove (tonearm design, cartridge design, set-up parameters, TT motor design, etc,) was a revelation even for those of us immersed in the hobby for over 50 years. A must see if you're an enthusiast!

[@royli3260]

I've really enjoyed this discussion despite it's esoteric themes. You can feel the passion they have for their work and the exchange/cross pollination of ideas makes a very enjoyable watch.

[@phatjbl]

Great discussion. Mark Dohmann for a start and the King of vinyl promotion and turntable setup Michael Fremmer is enough of a reason to be glued to your seat let alone the other esteemed experts. Mark D knows how to explain the extreme complexity of the science in an everyday way the average punter gets.

[@raykuiper4979]

Agree totally on your comment

[@mondoenterprises6710]

Pure analog vinyl is fun to hear what music used to sound like. I enjoy the ritual. It's quite the rabbitt hole for those with disposable income. But the small fry can also get into the game at a fair price and enjoy the sounds of yesterday as people used to hear them. Plus all your friends and family will think you're weird, crazy, or worse. And you will be able to test their unconditional love for you.

[@drmoss_ca]

Thank you to all the participants. Very enlightening.

[@simondepass4647]

Brilliant watch!

[@velchuck]

OMG! I learned a ton! It also has my head spinning. But guess what, I’m 76 with hearing that requires hearing aids. So my ability to hear most of the issues with a turntable are rather moot. But hay, it’s all my fault, with a little help from Uncle Sam. I still listen to vinyl and always will. Great show. Many thanks

[@trackingangle929]

Much of what the new developments revolve around (no pun intended) is speed consistency and your age, and/or hearing aids will not prevent you from hearing this since vinyl playback is about velocity not amplitude!

[@VinylLatte]

Wonderful discussion!

[@browe]

When I first used my new WallyTractor (and with responsive support from J.R. to make sure it worked with my SME 309 tonearm) I was *amazed* how much more lovely my Hana SL cartridge sang. Such a rich learning experience.

[@badbullit1]

309 user here, any interesting discoveries on that venerable device with the wally tools?

[@RUfromthe40s]

hana SL my first modern strange cartridge ,still saying , they dont make it like they used to.last i bought either than a Grado prestige II gold i went for the Hana Umami red, three modern cartridges in my 34 turntables(i colect hi-fi and my father uised to but now all is mine, i have it all and thank me i bought the biggest old house i could find ,again they don´t built them like they used to

[@jazzkatt7083]

This is a good presentation. I could listen to Leif for another hour.😮

[@steveericson2321]

I don't think I have ever listened to and entire panel discussion before this one. Fantastic. Must have been a total of 1,000 IQ sitting there.

[@Coneman3]

Probably a few INTPs and INTJs there for sure.

[@mcgjohn22]

great discussion and basic info on what is being done on vinyl playback.

[@drazenbabich]

The issue isn't the playback technology, it's the vinyl media itself. There is only so much you can "imprint" into the groove and only so much the most perfect stylus available today is able to pick up. I love vinyl and listen to it every day, but I'm also aware of its limitations. It's physics. We are also in the mercy of a lacquer cutter not to mention mastering engineer, how high-end those lacquer cutting rigs Ryan K Smith, Bernie Grundman, Kevin Gray and the likes use, are they chasing perfection like the companies providing playback equipment? We can come up with a turntable that costs like a 4 bedroom home, but the difference between that and some of more down-to-earth $10k systems available today will be minuscule and only detectable by the highest grade of components in the signal path and most discerning ears. Don't get me wrong, as an engineer myself I am all for technology progress and R&D but in this case we are chasing a rainbow.

[@babolababs4732]

I tend to agree with your observation.

[@trackingangle929]

Please listen (even digitized) to Steely Dan's "Gaucho" on the GMT One turntable on the Tracking Angle KZbin channel and report back on what you hear. The differences between a 10K and 100K system are great. If you get to read my review of the GMT system from Wilson-Benesch, in it I tell a story about a young man who was at my home to do air-conditioner maintenance. He'd never seen really big audio rig and was fascinated. He asked to hear Led Zeppelin II. I played it on the Rega NAIA turntable (about $15K with good cartridge). He was floored. "Never heard anything like that! Wow!". Then I played it on the Wilson-Benesch GMT One (very costly, I'll leave it at that), using the $75,000 CH Precision Phono Preamp. With two minutes of the same tune he exclaimed "I can't believe how much better that sounds!" We are not chasing "rainbows". We are chasing getting more info out of the grooves and we are dong that. The best part is, the trickle down to less costly gear. Your being an engineer doesn't really matter. Guess what? Most of the people involved in this are as well Maybe not the people speaking here (or me) but behind them are universities and research teams that are very well educated.

[@trackingangle929]

The amount that can be imprinted into vinyl is massive actually...this has been shown in great detail..

[@drazenbabich]

@@trackingangle929 Massive yes, but still less than other media, like digital for example. It's physics and its limitations.

[@MohsinWadee]

@@trackingangle929 anything can be made to sound better at the cost of a house, so your point being? Vinyl wears out, the schlep of all that cleaning and buying dust covers, adjusting etc etc.

[@E.Williams-z9y]

Nice discussion. I’ve been meaning to send in my cartridge to Wally Tools but other expenses keep getting in the way. If you have a good TT setup the Wally Tools suite is vital, unless you want to pay even more to have a turntable whisperer visit.

[@1999zrx1100]

Great discussion guys, always been my favourite aspect of audio. There’s endless amount of tweaks that keep it interesting. 🤓

[@ecyfoto]

Well not being a total vinyl noob I did take away some really simple and common sense advice from JR ; adjust the “VTA” not at the tone arm’s pivot point but at the cartridge. Fascinating stuff. Thank you Michael and Co.

[@analoguecity3454]

That video you did on KZbin with the turntable (i don't remember the name of it) , but I've heard things in the music that shocked me that as compressed as KZbin is, i still heard it, wow!😮

[@trackingangle929]

was the Wilson-Benesch GMT One

[@hornsby5533]

Sehr interessant, danke.

[@szilvaster]

Wonderfull debate

[@markblock8659]

One question: If zenith error is so important-audible at half a degree-wouldn't a very long tonearm, like 12" or more, be audibly superior to a 9" arm (all else equal)? Are there any linear-tracking arms that fix this one problem without causing others? As JR mentioned, some errors might be cut into the groove at the cutting stage, but statistically it averages out, so we have to control it on the playback side.

[@trackingangle929]

Hi Mark. Actually the opposite. The longer the arm, the more misalignment (which includes zenith error) gets magnified. Tangential trackers have a whole other series of problems....not worth getting into here!

[@gdwlaw5549]

I just auditioned a water powered turntable. Very similar technology to a water mill. I attached mine to the toilet flush system. It sounds Sxxt

[@Unpreeeedictable]

Really interesting panel. But if we are now dialing in turntables at the nanometer level, how on earth can we set up a cartridge the traditional way? I've found that Analog Magik software (which my setup guy uses) makes a lot more sense now that we've acknowledged how tiny changes can impact sound.

[@trackingangle929]

I think the evidence points in the opposite direction!

[@paulomontero12]

The dac technology has far better performance then vinyl playback and much less expensive! I have both.

[@trackingangle929]

Wow! You have both! I'm impressed! So do I. Guess what? Everyone on that panel has both. Records almost always sound better.

[@guywhite1004]

I am surprised that despite talking about DS Audio's rather expensive solution to centering discs on the turntable no one mentioned DS Audio's Optical Phono Cartridge System which seems to be revolutionizing the world of LP playback. I agree that vibration elimination, velocity stability, and cartridge alignment, etc. are vital to the future of LP playback, but I see optical cartridges as a big step forward and it's happening right now!

[@Nicholas-m8n]

There are actually vision systems that can prevent any off center records from ever being pressed. These same vision systems can be applied to having a newly pressed record be rotated and read every aspect of every groove to make sure it is pressed perfectly without defects so no defects ever leave the pressing plant. I knew about this already and told Michael Fremer about it back in 2014 10 years ago. I worked for a distributor who had all this technology and equipment to do this. Michael Fremer just shrugged at me and said the process of lining up the center hole correctly is fudged by the operator and that it is as if nothing can be done about it. I knew otherwise. This is just another aspect similar to what JR was saying in the video. Then you would not need to expend wasted money to purchase the expensive DS Audio centering device at all.

[@thomosburn8740]

I have heard 2 different tiers of the DS Audio optical system, and it is indeed groundbreaking (and worth every cent), but as these guys discussed above the cartridge and it's installation and what it's attached to will all make a huge sonic difference. "Weakest link" theory.

[@trackingangle929]

I appreciate what the DS system does and find aspects of its sound pleasing, but I disagree that it is "revolutionizing" LP playback. It is a different approach. The cutter head is velocity sensitive. Traditional cartridges are velocity sensitive. The DS and strain gauge type cartridge are amplitude sensitive. So playback is ad odds with how records are cut. That in part explains the sonic differences. I'm more of a traditionalist, preferring playback to adhere to how records are cut!

[@guywhite1004]

@@trackingangle929 Makes sense, Michael.

[@thomosburn8740]

@@trackingangle929 all that is needed is to re-engineer the preamp to the new spec (which is what DS Audio eventually did).

[@audiophile5361]

Excellent video. I am amazed we can make chips with billions of transistors but cannot make a cartridge that has a zenith error tolerance better than 5%.

[@oliverbeard7912]

This was interesting.Clearly some smart people here who have analysed vinyl playback down to the nanometer level.I will not proclaim to be an expert in vinyl replay,but one aspect that jumps out at me is that microscopy is stationary, while with vinyl playback constantly (or near constantly allowing for speed errors),is a moving and changeable system, so from a rudimentary perspective can never provide the same level of stability i feel .It's great to hear about the R&D processes working towards incremental improvements nevertheless. Thanks.

[@alexdickie320]

A real young crowd there.

[@trackingangle929]

The greatest growth in vinyl sales is among 18-24 year olds. The age of this crowd is as meaningless as your comment.

[@ingenfestbrems]

how many microns are a typicaly dust flake and how many db can it produce?

[@trackingangle929]

dirty eyeglasses are a problem too

[@audioguy5253]

What new innovative Tonearm is Mark Dohmann referring too?

[@Drmdgtl]

SUPATRAC Blackbird Tonearm

[@SUPATRAC]

The Döhmann Helix One Mk3 at Munich '24 had the new SUPATRAC Nighthawk tone-arm attached: kzbin.info/www/bejne/aZaXYnh-g519mNU

[@hunkydorian]

Where can we donate to help buy the guy on the right some grownup clothes?

[@Rowuk2024]

In 5 or 10 years I certainly hope that the industry gives me a reason to change my SME3009II and Ortofon Rohmann cartridge to something new.

[@rambler3080]

The best vinyl recordings are predominantly from the past and were captured with technology from that era. Just wondering how these advanced technologies are able to extract musical information that was LIMITED by the technology of the time. Cogging, vibration etc is All ENCODED in the recordings but these massively expensive new technologies will somehow magically eliminate those errors.

[@67Pepper]

How is cogging and vibration "encoded" in the recordings when the grooves are being cut by a cutter head with a cutting tool mounted to the cutter head which is a completely different process than how the the playback (TT) device functions? Cogging and vibration are induced by the motor drive system on the playback device. What does the lathe cutter head have to do with it?

[@mondoenterprises6710]

oh snap.

[@rambler3080]

⁠@@67Pepper”different process”?? What do you mean a different process. The cutting head is being driven by a belt or direct drive system and the whole assembly is coupled to the floor and subject it any ambient vibration. It’s just the “negative” of the playback process. You are absolutely limited by the technology of the time in terms of timing and resolution of the material. It’s like saying improving video technology will make films from the 1950s better than the technology was able to capture.

[@johnstone7697]

@@rambler3080 And let's not forget where the signal comes from that drives the cutting head: a master tape made on hardware that can't come close to a modern digital recording system. No low noise tape, no noise reduction, etc. It surprises me how much tape dropout, hiss, and wow and flutter I can hear in many older vinyl pressings.

[@AbidMajeed-x5b]

❤

[@scottwolf8633]

Very stimulating, sounds as if the domain of Classical Physics must yield to Quantum Mechanics if We are going to solve this enigmatic issue of analog music reproduction.

[@thomosburn8740]

I will purchase that DS Audio ES-001 Eccentricity detection stabilizer when they are no longer anywhere near $6000 USD!

[@weatheranddarkness]

What would be the point? THere's only one TT ever made that can do anything about it. Is there somebody out there, or some gizmo that lets you cut a new hole?

[@trackingangle929]

hopefully the price will come down but it's incredible what's packed into the thing...

[@Coneman3]

This makes me think of TV technology. Old TVs couldn’t deliver the quality of well mastered films. Modern TVs are so much better now, so old films can look better than ever before.

[@Andreas_Straub]

You still have all the faults of analog film - only digitally remastering those old films can make them really watchable today. Doing the same with Vinyl would mean that serious reprocessing the analog material in the digital domain could at least remove some of the many problems that medium has. This would also mean usage of AI systems trying to reestablish what certain instruments are supposed to sound like .... which would definitely be not acceptable to real vinyl nerds ....

[@ingenfestbrems]

the ortofon test record was a heck of an eye-opener with its tracks for adjusting the right antiscate.......... get it wrong, and its distortion. the record was a better upgrade vs the next cartr. in the lines og carts.

[@slowpawstevet3676]

those old vinyl records contain a lot of easter eggs!

[@jeromelang6413]

as long as the dreaded memory retention issue is not resolved, digital will forever be playing catch up to analogue playback.

[@RUfromthe40s]

see for the first time people discussing real matters ,digital i wish it had probalities of evolution but were stuk in the 70´s as Sony makes a lot of millions with whatever we listen to

[@denisdenis5006]

Great video and bad subtitle. So watch with the sound on. For example, cantilever is “Cancer lever”?

[@jimromanski2702]

Why not put the turntable in another room isolated from sound? You would want a remote tonearm lift to drop the needle and then at the end of the side pick it up. No more speaker cartridge feedback. A pain in the butt to change records but cheap and effective.

[@trackingangle929]

I have my turntable in the same room as my very large speakers. I have made recordings with the speakers off and playing at very high SPLs. You will not hear a difference. It depends on the turntable, stand and room placement of course but...

[@ron101346]

What does it matter if the vinyl was originally mastered from a digital source? Many (most?) are these days since the analog master tapes are getting too lold and delicate to handle.

[@trackingangle929]

Thousands of records cut from tape have been released over the past few years. Most tapes are in better shape than you might think. Some not of course, which makes the original pressings and proper playback all the more important!

[@concoru]

Think LP is emotional choice due process and experience of things until record start playing. In regards to quality the most popular format in the world in current time is usually the best technologically per USD spent. Means digital. If LP was the top of mountain in audio realm then all scientific devices would still be analog and not digital. But fortunately it is digital. I mean currently most limiting factor is not the playing technology of LP but how records are being made and recorded in first place. LP is fun though. That's the thing about it.

[@vassmarc1]

Interestingly enough many great recordings are mixed on consoles , not in the box . Mixing in the digital realm is most unpleasant . If you only knew what recording mixing engineers have to do to make digital sonically pleasing. Of course this may not auto all genres of music but from my experience digital is clean , dynamic and sonically unpleasant .

[@trackingangle929]

What do you say about tubes? Most of our satellites use tubes.

[@vassmarc1]

According to my friend who was a satellite tracking engineer, he maintained the ultra high frequency equipment used to communicate with satellites , the tube is the most accurate device to recreate audio. He also says it dosnt add color , well maybe driven hard when positive order harmonics are produced. I believe him . I run Audio research pre and power. . I’m happy .

[@carminedesanto6746]

Sooo…the TT set UP should replicate the cutting machine that made the master????

[@papabear1417]

It did many decades ago. Materials became better quality as did the manufacturing process. Now manufacturers use snake oil theory to just their new piece of kit. Light and extremely stiff does seem the better route. An old Thorens still outperforms many modern high end turntables though.

[@WhiskyJapan]

This.

[@trackingangle929]

What "snake oil theory" are you referring to?

[@trackingangle929]

This discussion is not about "snake oil". If that's what you take from it, the concept are above your head.

[@jerryandlisa27]

Michael will be in the vynil hall of fame .

[@gdwlaw5549]

Vinyl half of blame ..😊

[@trackingangle929]

@@gdwlaw5549 happy to take the blame

[@el_arte]

People find in the groove things the presser never intended, with 5 micrometers of precision at most.

[@trackingangle929]

That hilariously incorrect.

[@timessquarerecordscom1469]

The 50s golden age of music

[@jeromelang6413]

why then are turntable manufacturers still using metal materials to make their platters???? As Mark said above, the adverse effects of metal on the magnetic circuit of cartridges are both measurable and audible. why then would some manufacturers even go to the extend of using magnetic propulsion system to aid in the suspension of plinths/platters/tonearms?

[@internationalmanofmystery8009]

There is some valuable information here. But these guys (except Fremer, who is merely hosting) are so hopelessly inarticulate that it’s like wading through treacle to get to it. Really, the best speaker here is the one for whom English is not his first language but who has an excellent command of English. If there were others in the audience with a less than perfect grasp of the language I can only imagine they must have been completely lost.

[@trackingangle929]

I think all of them were sufficiently articulate.

[@takeiteasy6154]

Unless the recording chain is completely analogue and the cutting head has analogue delay ,these guys are trying to playback analogue that most masters are in pcm or dsd and employs digital delay in the cutting head ,mind boggling !

[@trackingangle929]

NO analog cutting chain today uses digital delay lines. Nor do any of them use DDL when cutting from a digital source. There's no need. You are misinformed. Minds don't boggle as to why you were not invited to sit on this panel: you don't know what you are talking about.

[@hubertzawadzki9490]

Videos like these will make your Vinyl Playback OCD much worse. I found the cure in the digital domain.

[@fatphoca5009]

With fibre, switches, lps, buffers etc? Plenty of digital OCD

[@mondoenterprises6710]

oh snap.

[@thomosburn8740]

Where (in the words of Fremer from some years ago) your music all sounds like it's enclosed in saran wrap. I have a superb Philips SACD player that also upsamples redbook cds to 192k before decoding to analog, AND a not crazily expensive analog front end (Rega / Ortofon) and guess which gets played more often . . .

[@pc750-V4]

​​@@thomosburn8740ths SACD player would be the sensible guess.

[@miguelbarrio]

I think Mike Trei's question was quite relevant. He knows about the DS Audio centering tool (he reviewed it on Stereophile). His question is one I also have: when would a turntable do this automatically and without sonic degradation?

[@Nicholas-m8n]

There are actually vision systems that can prevent any off center records from ever being pressed. These same vision systems can be applied to having a newly pressed record be rotated and read every aspect of every groove to make sure it is pressed perfectly without defects so no defects ever leave the pressing plant. I knew about this already and told Michael Fremer about it back in 2014 10 years ago. I worked for a distributor who had all this technology and equipment to do this. Michael Fremer just shrugged at me and said the process of lining up the center hole correctly is fudged by the operator and that it is as if nothing can be done about it. I knew otherwise. This is just another aspect similar to what JR was saying in the video. Then you would not need to expend wasted money to purchase the expensive DS Audio centering device at all.

[@trackingangle929]

We are still waiting for that. The Nakamichi system solved the problem but for whatever reason or reasons did not sound particularly good. Was the split platter the issue? Maybe. Probably..

[@miguelbarrio]

@@trackingangle929 Dohmann made a very interesting point about the Nakamichis: the moving platter used to center the record has to become off-center, creating an unbalanced platter. The T-1000 for example has a platter weighing 4.2 lbs, so it’s fairly light and this off-centering of the intermediate platter (which I think is like a thick platter matt, sort of) will make a difference. But if you combine this with a very heavy overall platter - and possibly vacuum hold-down to solidify the whole sandwhich once it’s centered, this might work well.

[@miguelbarrio]

@@trackingangle929 My dream turntable is one with WB’s direct drive, auto-centering, remote control for cueing (ala WB), vacuum hold-down, and space for four armboards.

[@miguelbarrio]

@@trackingangle929Actually, I can totally see a TechDas platter with a little device touching gently the edge of the record until it’s centered, then automatically engaging the vacuum hold-down, without an additional sliding subplatter, very much like you would do with the DS Audio centering tool today.

[@siriosstar4789]

is it true that todays vinyl is taken from digital sources and then turned back into analog ? if so what's the point . NOT trolling , just ignorant on the subject .

[@trackingangle929]

There are thousands of reissues already in print and more coming that are cut from analog tape AAA. There are some new releases also recorded to tape. But there's something else: turning a big resolution digital file to vinyl can sound more pleasing to the ear for reasons best gone into elsewhere. The move can be seen as just another "plug in". People also say, why use a vacuum tube based microphone preamp, which has more noise and distortion that a solid state one, but check on the prices of vintage tube microphones. There are reasons that go beyond measurements.

[@siriosstar4789]

very interesting and helpful . thanks very much for your reply

[@GiancarloBenzina]

I wonder sometimes how we can talk about the very basics and find them astonishingly new. I understand if that‘s been clear and known, theoretically researched by all, already over 40 years ago, just not able to manufacture and execute without the material and tools that are available now. Has the industry been so blind arrogant and stupid for that long? I doubt that. People then made the right choices about amps, loudspeakers, turntables, recordings, and their tools to get the most out of that knowledge with the available materials and tools. So why are we saying now it‘s all new science? It isn‘t. It‘s new executions. Costly and small quantities execution developments. What‘s new is that incompetent in certain matters, get money to buy competence for that matter and to jointly work on the executions without sharing it to others, even though it‘s state money, paid by everyone tax payer. The result is that no grand innovation are developed, but monopolist part-innovations, that create more gaps to existing knowledge than to achieve the optimum. By that there‘ll always be a splattered delay of non-optimized systems to achieve slowly a higher standard over longer time.

[@QuintEssential-sz2wn]

I enjoy the bling of a nice turntable. But if these gentlemen are going to talk about digging out more sonic information than ever before, and lowering distortion, this should be measurable. Where are the measurements showing the mega turntables have actually reduced AUDIBLE distortion over the best available turntables say, 10 years ago, or even of the late 70s/early 80s? And if such unheard of sonic information were being dug up, this should be audible on high quality digital needle drops. And you could compare that too a needle drop from the best early turntables and/or to digital versions. I've heard some nice rips from high end tables, e.g. from Fremer, but I didn't hear anything truly revelatory. Also, it's one thing to say "turntables work by amplifying tiny vibrations and therefore we must isolate the table from vibrations." It's another to actually justify the seemingly way over-engineered designs of the mega turntables. There has to be a point at which, at least in a normal room without some intrusive vibration - footsteps on a sprung floor - you have reduced audible vibration and you don't get any audible benefits from further heroic design efforts. Sometimes these engineers seem to assume our ears have some infinite capacity to hear ever less distortion, but we know that's not true. We already achieve measurable-but-inaudible distortion levels in amplifiers. And I don't see issues like masking effects, psycho-acoustics, which lower our ability to perceive distortion, factored in to these heroic engineering efforts.

[@Andreas_Straub]

... and then you buy new vinyl that is so heavily warped that some people put it in the oven to flatten them 🤣

[@trackingangle929]

The measurements are clear and were delivered to me when i reviewed the Wilson-Benesch GMT (review not yet published). The measurements are in the vibrational domain and are quite clear.

[@trackingangle929]

The measurements do show significant improvements in speed consistency which is different than running at the right speed. Vinyl playback is based on velocity not amplitude, which is why speed consistency is so critical. Much of what can be perceived can now be measured to the "arc second" (look it up) but the human brain still beats any measurement.

[@MohsinWadee]

Vinyl, probably the most overrated and profiteering physical audio format.

[@joseauger1353]

Perhaps the use of laser analog record reading systems instead of cartridges should be advanced. There is one but it is not satisfactory. A system impervious to clicks, pops, warps, that can read the record grooves and reproduce with perfect fidelity. I am sure that if the industry puts efforts they can do it.

[@WAM-Engineering]

Not sure that’s the answer as the wavelength of visible light is much larger than groove perturbations we can hear.

[@pc750-V4]

​@@WAM-Engineering you might have missed his underlying humour...

[@trackingangle929]

I've reviewed the laser turntable. The problem is the laser reads dirt as effectively as it does the grooves.

[@joseauger1353]

That is why I said that industry should put their efforts to find a solution. Many times we say “it is not possible” and by saying and believing that progress is stalled. I believe that there must be a way of improving the way lasers can read the information in the grooves minimizing or even avoiding the dirt problem as well as clicks and pops. After all, we already clean our records in order to avoid the problem of dirt.

[@trackingangle929]

Actually laser turntables read dirt and noise as well as groove modulations and producer LOUDER pops and clicks.

[@Andreas_Straub]

It is highly confusing to me that you are trying to improve the reproduction hw to a degree that is several orders of magnitudes better than the medium and the recording process. As long as we are not able to mass produce a real flat record that contains a single empty grove that is NOT generating lots of unwanted noise, why care? With old records it is even worse, as the whole electronics used for recording, the actual cutting machines as well as the vinyl presses were deeply flawed. Why would you even care to avoid influences of external road noise, as long as the medium itself is faulty by design? The only thing that is often better on old records compared to newer productions is the mastering. The restictive capabilities of vinyl simply does not allow to the extreme amount of low frequencies and compression. If you would do that, you would get extremely short play times. So it is exactly these restrictions of the medium enforcing a "better" mastering that what is mostly used these days on digital masters. Combine that with the best digital recording technology today and you get a premium product.

[@trackingangle929]

Most records in my experience are "real flat" or can be flattened if need be, and do not contain or generate "lots of unwanted noise". There may be more "measured" noise but in practical terms it's not audible.

[@RUfromthe40s]

i think so, as we go forward, new turntables and cartridges become worst and expensier than usual , iremenber thinking "this cartridge is somethin`else but 1/3 of my monthly income, now with 1/10 of the quality i say "wow! not that good and doble my monthly income, i´ve tested a lot of turntables since 2017 and cartridges from several brands mainly Pro-ject and Rega and some signature rotor ones and what the hell is this 1.200€ for a turntable that i had never heard so bad since late 60´s, and a MM cartridge saying high output sounds lower than a good MC cartridge from late 70´s ,shame on you brands that steal from the people, the weaker turntable i bought for me was a mission but how good it sounded i even ended up buying a mission cirus system and had great sound but some productions have lower this or that so sometimes i felt the need of tone controls but old tube amplifiers no matter if there aren´t tone controls they sound good anyway , the sound was diferent maybe more real in the 60´s and 70´s but always expensive

[@wrinkleneckbass]

I still use an old phonograph from the early 1900's and store all my music on wax cylinders.

[@trackingangle929]

Well good for you!

[@darrellross8609]

FJB..!

[@ofir5000]

It reached it's peak 100 years ago Digital is the future

[@trackingangle929]

The future is the future. The future is what make it. Records made from fresh tapes 60 years ago will almost always sound better than digitized versions made from tired tapes....

[@Burphy42]

This already is The Future and I still listen to my old records and the new ones too. Some good some not. The best EVER reproduced music I have heard is a reprint of Los Romeros from 60s on my humble TT setup at home. The next future is problem of someone else.

[@jeanmichel2642]

Am I the only one to notice that all the "high end audiophiles" promoting turntables, overpriced cables and useless stuff are mainly elderly people with probably a listening capability limited to 12KHz-15KHz?

[@mikeross4081]

No, you are not the only one. I have noticed it too and totally agree. I estimate the average age in that room was about 75. Its true that the frequency range of human hearing drops off as we age but I think it differs for individuals and and depends on many factors from genetics to how well you looked after your ears. People who have listened to lots of loud music throughout their life will probably find that their hearing deteriorates faster.

[@trackingangle929]

If you think this is "useless stuff" you are a young fool. A cymbal hit is around 7kHz. Do you think what's up at 12kHz-15kHz is important musical information? When you get older and wiser you'll find it really isn't. Most of the great conductors are "elderly people". Most of the great mastering engineers are "elderly people". Hearing is a combination of the ear and the brain. I promise you the "elderly" Bernie Grundman and "elderly" Bob Ludwig still hear 100X better than you do, though your ear may produce better numbers. Your brain does not. Furthermore, these shows now attract a mixed demographic and the people demonstrating the gear also vary in age. Your observation is really off the mark. And one more thing: the biggest increase among vinyl buyers is in the 18-24 year old demo. There are NUMBERS to prove this.

[@trackingangle929]

@@mikeross4081 Yes the people in this discussion are mostly older. Two older mastering engineers, Bob Ludwig and Bernie Grundman hear better (hearing is a combination of ear AND brain) than 99% of young, inexperienced listeners. Listen to what they master if you need proof.

[@WAM-Engineering]

People forget that frequency isn't the only domain we have auditory sensitivity to and, like frequency, that sensitivity is variable amongst the population. TIME is the other primary domain and is arguably slightly more important than frequency for what we do as audiophiles. I'd be willing to bet that experienced ears like those of Dohmann, Fremer, Johannsen and Milnes are able to distinguish timing with much greater sensitivity than most audiophiles. An individual's timing sensitivities can be subject to measurement testing.

[@GiancarloBenzina]

Never will I go to a turntable whisperer again. Such dependency is counterproductive and only allows for more voodoo stuff games. Learn yourself but also the industry needs to provide methods that make it simpler.

[@cameraplus7233]

You need to take a lighter & more positive outlook. All three of your comments are so negative. Maybe your best thing to do is give up on turntables & records if you feel you're getting a raw deal & get out of the house more. There's always digital if you feel so bad about turntables.

[@trackingangle929]

like science in general, right?

[@trackingangle929]

I fully agree! These things are measurable and the results speak for themselves. Doing it "by ear' is voodoo

[@WhiteRvssian2023]

There is a limiting syntax to the sheer format. So probably, it won't get any better than it is now. Which is inferior to any subsequent technology. Also, to bring out the best of vinyl is vastly more expensive than to bring out the best of subsequent formats. It's perfectly legitimate to like the format, the physical form of vinyl, etc. But from my perspective, it's dead technology, just livnig for nostalgic reasons.

[@davidcross890]

You are deeply misinformed

[@WhiteRvssian2023]

@@davidcross890 I am not. Every technology imposes its own sytax. Read "The Keepers of Light" which is about photography, but the first halve of the book is about syntax.

[@davidcross890]

@@WhiteRvssian2023absolute best of ultra high end class performance that has clearly separated itself from so the so many pretenders requires very specific circuits and their designs, implementations, and arrangements. This I know from doing.

[@WhiteRvssian2023]

@@davidcross890 The best components can't pass the limits of a flawed medium. If you think it ca, you'ree living proof of Festngers Theory of Cognitive Dissonance.. And read that book, I don't think you understand my point.

[@davidcross890]

@@WhiteRvssian2023 you conveniently incorrectly assume my technologies and innovations and advancements do not address source medium flaws and adverse influences

[@Rowuk2024]

The closeness of digital playback to the master is more than enough reason to finally admit that vinyl is in serious need of R&D. The secret is RESONANCE that is a major factor in what is wrong in vinyl playback. Wasn't the Black Widow the first carbon fiber tonearm?

[@trackingangle929]

Digital playback is closest to digital masters not to analog

[@Rowuk2024]

@@trackingangle929 The problem is that traditional analog playback is not close to anything. The reproduction chain is full of "artifacts". Wow, Flutter, cartridge resonance, contact of stylus to groove, accuracy of the phono corrector, matching cartridge parameters to the arm and phono corrector. Limited dynamics, quality of the pressing, degradation of the media over time. That does not mean that analog playback can not be plausible, it only means that there is HUGE room for improvement, but currently only for those with enough spare change. If I were to pick one worst analog trait, it would be the cost of accuracy at any level. Analog can be fun at any price, but really good is reserved for the very few with the means and dedication.

[@WhiskyJapan]

Didn't it peak in the 1980s? Some of the electronic features on the Japanese high end turntables peaked and I haven't seen anything like that since. 1980s JVC for example. There is nothing new like it.

[@WhiskyJapan]

excerpt from a description of the 1986 Victor QL-Y44F: Please tell me how any new turntable surpassed or has better technology? The tone arm uses a highly rigid tapered straight pipe arm using an electroservo system. In the electroservo system, a linear motor is directly connected to the horizontal rotating shaft. A microcomputer controls full-automatic operation and suppresses ultra-low frequency resonance that occurs in the horizontal direction. This is an electronic Q-dump system that prevents needle skipping and distortion and improves the stability of cartridge tracing. Also, the anti-skating is electronic. That's just the Tonearm.....

[@trackingangle929]

did not peak in the 1980s Much of what's now being measured was not possible back then. Features are different than performance.

[@mondoenterprises6710]

Records are still your best entertainment value! lol.

[@GiancarloBenzina]

The creme out of an ammassed wannabe greed brands for „gold“ and „weight“ instead of wisdom excellence.

[@trackingangle929]

that's a mouthful of what?

[@christophermaley6822]

No. Have always liked both Vinyl and CD by the way. The obvious improvement would be to produce a vinyl that is perfectly silent without ANY intrusive surface noise, between track vinyl roar, groove pre echo, warping, mistracking and with the theoretical dynamic range of CD or higher. ALL people into Vinyl should also recognise that CD was never really MASTERED PROPERLY in most cases due to the loudness wars and stupidity of the crap mastering engineers. All these snooty Analogue people never, ever talk about the MANY disadvantages of vinyl yet always rubbish CD without question ?