If you would like to see Carbon Vs Normal Tensions Strings, please check this out: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qWK5epuAhJihnJo Thank you for watching
@louiscyfer6944 Жыл бұрын
there is no such thing as carbon vs normal tension.carbons come in normal or hard tension.
@Andy7String Жыл бұрын
@louiscyfer6944 thanks for your comment, please check out my video on carbon strings
@danielanthonytorrance88284 жыл бұрын
We got it, you have very impressive video editing skills.
@velvik2 жыл бұрын
Bro really went all out 😂
@JonManness4 жыл бұрын
Great comparison! For recording purposes, the high tension sounds better to me. I also thought you played more inspired on the high tension strings, so it's a win-win for high tension. Cheers!
@Andy7String4 жыл бұрын
I liked the High Tension. Thank you for watching
@Davegbuf2 жыл бұрын
Thank you for a great video. I have normal tension strings. I would like to lower the action a little more but you can only go so far with lower tension strings before risk of vibration against the frets. If high tension strings are not an option, then it looks like getting the best quality normal tension would be the next best solution.
@Andy7String2 жыл бұрын
Glad it was helpful!
@MichDonn3 жыл бұрын
There is nothing like giving the sound difference between the string tensions with a similar tune. Thanks for that clarity.
@Andy7String3 жыл бұрын
thank you for watching Michel
@MichDonn3 жыл бұрын
@@Andy7String Based on that I've decided that it is the high tension strings that I prefer
@royberberich77693 жыл бұрын
Thanks for making this video. I recently purchased a Cordoba C7 classical guitar that came with high tension strings. I have not played guitar in a very long time and I found it painful to play on these strings. I will be shortly making my way to the guitar center to get them replaced with normal tension strings. Thanks again for your informative video.
@Andy7String3 жыл бұрын
Hi Roy, thank you for watching, normal tension are easier to play and my personal favourite
@PaulChaplo4 ай бұрын
Thanks. Same here with Cordoba and need to be kind to my high mileage hands :)
@Louis-lu5wh2 жыл бұрын
Your space is awesome, great vibes!
@Andy7String2 жыл бұрын
Thanks so much!
@XxViperMortalxX Жыл бұрын
Thanks a lot for the comparison, i like a more balanced and "bassy" sound, im a beginer at playing guitar but i knew something was off when i bought my guitar i just didnt know what. The new guitar i bought had the sound i like and better than the previous one which had suffered quite a bit i just used it for the first steps since it was free and i didnt know if i was actually going to play the guitar, yet even with sharper sharper and overall more bassy feeling it had that sound that i cant really describe but i can definitly hear in the high tension, which i dont really like. Lucky for me i found ur video, my strings broke yesterday 😂.
@davidsquonkbreeds85684 жыл бұрын
Always wanted to know the difference
@OthiOthi4 жыл бұрын
Super good video production quality for your first video. Loved it
@mootal2812 Жыл бұрын
Anyone tried before AUGUSTINE Paragon Red Med Tension Fluorocarbon Trebles / Siver-Plated Basses Classical string Set...please comment? Thank you.
@kelvinalston41874 жыл бұрын
Excellent! Inspired me to pick the classical again!
@farhadghazavi51343 жыл бұрын
Such a nice guitar playing, I liked it
@Andy7String3 жыл бұрын
thank you for watching
@AryanTheMentalist3 жыл бұрын
Underrated ❤️ Loved the video ❤️
@Andy7String3 жыл бұрын
Appreciate it! Thank you for watching
@guitarjunkie20654 жыл бұрын
Brother, I appreciate your having put in the time and effort to make and post this. And yes, the cats ARE hilarious. Good call leaving them in. Mine too have never been able to resist the allure of guitar strings waving in the air while being changed. But... I started to lol when you said "I do hear just a little bit of fret buzz with these". Dude. I was already thinking of writing to you, all of what I started with, plus "I'm sorry, but I can hardly hear anything at all in terms of tone underneath all that fret buzz". It's massive. Overwhelming. And that's me trying NOT to sound pejorative. I get it, this is not your primary instrument, and it would require major modifications to your technique to play it with a proper setup, and probably having to accept just not being able to play as fast, at least for some time as you re-trained. And I even get why you apparently don't even hear this. Our ears get trained differently according to what we've been listening to and playing. It's about exposure. But - and I'm an almost-exclusively steel-string player myself - I have absolutely no idea why anyone would want to play a nylon-string at all if not for its tone. Listen to something like this (which is quite short, no major investment involved in checking it out) and then listen to your own video again. You see? m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/amq7naela92tm9U One more thing: you're obviously electrified. If that's via a piezoelectric pickup under the saddle, it's virtually guaranteed that your tone will continue to be seriously compromised, even after having corrected the string heights. There are other methods. Those things have a lot of advantages for performing live with high amplification. Faithful reproduction of high quality acoustic guitar tones is not what they're good for. That's why, if I caught that exchange correctly, something was said about the fret buzz being magnified by being plugged in. The piezos are robbing you of bottom end and depth, and overemphasizing certain highs. (In fact, it's interfering with your purely acoustic tone too. Ideally, there should be nothing between the saddle and the guitar top, because that's the route by which the vibrations from the strings are getting to the top. I don't know that guitar specifically. But in general, Yamaha utilizes good materials, good design, and good quality control. You probably should be able to get a tone that will totally satisfy anyone who's not a classical purist and possibly a bit of a snob. If you're really serious about tone, take that pickup out, and replace the saddle with one that you've very very gradually sanded down from its full height, just a little at a time, until you start to hear the first hints of fret buzz when playing pretty high up [meaning, towards the bridge] the neck. At that point you can bring it back up a touch with a piece of rosewood veneer, cut oversized, glued to the bottom of the saddle, and then sanded to remove the excess. And then you adjust your truss rod, if need be, to correct whatever you may still be hearing when fretting closer to the nut. This will not affect the action higher up unless it was WAY out of adjustment, which I highly doubt that it is.)
@Andy7String4 жыл бұрын
Hi, thank you for the reply. I do struggle more to play acoustic and this is def not the primary instrument. Having said that, my skill level is always being worked on so appreciate the feed back from you. The guitar is a Yamaha NTX900FM. I made this video as it was currently something I needed to know at the time and hope that the info in it does provide some help. Thank you for your feedback, advice and watching
@Mauitaoist2 жыл бұрын
I use the high tension strings on my shorter scale guitars and on the long scale guitars I prefer the normal strings however remember you need to do a truss rod adjustment if you change the strings generally
@Andy7String2 жыл бұрын
Hi Cory, Sounds like good advice, thank you for watching
@alvarez62993 жыл бұрын
Hi I am using normal tension. The neck and string height adjustments of my guitar have been made. But sometimes I get very little sizzling sound. Will this problem disappear if I use high tension? Because of the tension, I think the handle can be pushed back a little more and the problem can be solved. A normal tension wire oscillates more than the hard tension wire, and I think this can make sizzle a bit. What do you think? Should i use high tension for this problem?
@Andy7String3 жыл бұрын
Hi Alvarez, it does sound like a high tension string will help you out. You may also consider the strength you use to hit the strings, when you play hard it has a similar effect on some setups. Thank you for watching
@PaulJBaccash4 жыл бұрын
Sounds like you're tuned down 2 whole steps. I get it, 7 strings baritone on a 6 string guitar but have you compared the tension differences when tuned to standard 440?
@Andy7String4 жыл бұрын
Hi, you have a good ear, it was tuned down for that video. Have tried it at standard as well as eFlat and have the same results, slightly less noticeable on standard. Thank you for watching!
@doutordrive4 жыл бұрын
I prefer hard tension with a lower action .
@tallisrocktube27 күн бұрын
Andy I see you`re playing a Yamaha ntx900fm..do you have problem of your guitar pickup turning off if you use a stereo cord rather than a mono? mine turns off..Andy have you tried the new Cordova stage classical solid body..maybe do a review of that nylon string electric.
@farhadghazavi51343 жыл бұрын
Also, I like your video editing and motion texts
@Andy7String3 жыл бұрын
Thank you Farhad, the effects are from MotionVFX, thank you for watching, new video out soon!
@mattiecreates Жыл бұрын
LMAO totally get the hardship of putting strings on with cats in the house
@oliviaorsmond17664 жыл бұрын
Awesome video!
@finneye4 жыл бұрын
Great tutorial and very inspiring 🤘🏻
3 жыл бұрын
4:59 I would have said that the high tension strings cut through the mix a lot better.
@Andy7String3 жыл бұрын
Hi Georg, they do have the tone for it. Am working on a carbon strings comparison as well! Thank you for watching
@harrytuttle81612 жыл бұрын
I hear classical guitars on recordings , but my guitar the strings seem rather loose or floppy at E tuning . I'm thinking I need hard tension strings for a more snappy feel . I play electric mostly but I love the sound of Spanish guitar . I have a New Ortega Family RCE131sn , very pretty , solid built guitar , I replaced the nut with Graphtech synthetic bone sanded to an exact shape of the factory plastic nut . Do you think Hard tension strings would be worth a try ? if so is there a hardness level and what brand ? Thanks .
@Andy7String2 жыл бұрын
Hi Harry, high tension may be just what you looking for, there is a variance between brands but they usually very similar. Thank you for watching
@valeravahue Жыл бұрын
Попробуй сначала карбоновые струны нормального натяжения.
@CamiloJamesGuitar4 жыл бұрын
Thanks for this video, this helped me very much 🙂🎸
@Andy7String4 жыл бұрын
Glad it helped!
@seanortigoza39314 жыл бұрын
Watching while taking a break. :)
@JodieReid4 жыл бұрын
Such a great video though I'll admit - that cat was making me nervous 😂 I'm about to attempt changing strings - should be fun!
@Andy7String4 жыл бұрын
Good luck!!
@jihahaa28223 жыл бұрын
which one is good for entry level?
@Andy7String3 жыл бұрын
Hi Jiha, the normal tensions would be good as they are slightly easier to play. Thank you for watching
@intersolar4 жыл бұрын
Thanks, very good video
@stevesheldon27164 жыл бұрын
Excellent, let's hear more !!
@farber24 жыл бұрын
I have the Yamaha NCX700, same electronics I would assume, does sound a little buzzy when plugged in, like yours, I like the guitar overall.
@Andy7String4 жыл бұрын
The yamaha could probably do with a bit of setup to get rid of the buzz. Thank you for watching
@LachieRobertson4 жыл бұрын
Nice! 👏👏 Subscribed
@ironmantran4 жыл бұрын
Love yr vid: instant LIKE. USA tensions are diff than Europe. "HARD" blue EJ46 set is only near 90lbs=total; this is LOW or Medium in Europe. "MEDIUM" from Savarez, Aquila is at least 92-93 Lbs (pounds)=total. EUROPE HIGH TENSION, like Carbon set in USA, is nearly 96-102 or even 104 Lbs/set/total...
@Andy7String4 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the info!
@oriomenoni76512 жыл бұрын
I'm italian, could you please explain to me what does "chimmy highs" mean?
@Andy7String2 жыл бұрын
Hi Orio, it means that the frequency range for the high is almost bell like sounding in nature I guess, it is pleasing
@mpeltz15344 жыл бұрын
Excellent review! I recently purchased a Córdoba Orchestra CE. It is a crossover with a 1 7/8” neck and 16” radius. I’m a classical guitar player use to normal tension strings. This guitar has a high tension string recommendation. I had the action set low and still get some buzzing particularly if I use a capo. The Luther that did the set up recommended the high tension strings also. I’d like to try the normal strings again just to feel the difference and see if the buzz is tolerable. Probably will be worse than the high tension? I’m guessing it will not hurt the guitar neck? Changing tensions?
@Andy7String4 жыл бұрын
Hi, changing tensions can def play on the neck, however, you can adjust the neck to pretty much the same position. There should not be any hurt though :) Part of a good setup is giving the nut a slight adjustment in the neck to change the bend so that the strings sit correctly. Thank you for watching.
@fluffphd1481 Жыл бұрын
I heard your accent and immediately started looking for the South African references XD Greetings from Cape Town!
@fluffphd1481 Жыл бұрын
And great vid btw, exactly what I was looking for.
@Andy7String5 ай бұрын
Thank you for watching
@DominiqueREY243 ай бұрын
Jouer au médiator sur une guitare classique enlève toute la beauté de ce que vous jouez, mais c'est peut-être une question subjective. Sinon merci, même si la différence est vraiment subtile entre les high et medium. (casque de bonne qualité)
@sameekshanelson3834 жыл бұрын
Which strings i should use for good base
@Andy7String4 жыл бұрын
HI Sameeksha, this is up to your personal taste, generally, thicker strings provide more bass tamber. Thank you for watching
@jasonforster9445 Жыл бұрын
Hannabach exclusive
@thingsicookforher2 жыл бұрын
Why did the guitar keep going out of tune when you wound it? What did you do to prevent this after?
@Andy7String2 жыл бұрын
Hey Jax, the new strings stretch a bit when first put on, if you play them in a bit they start to settle after a few days, this video was made directly after the restring which was challenging. Thank you for watching
@thingsicookforher2 жыл бұрын
@@Andy7String Thanks for the speedy reply! I’ve found so many conflicting answer and see some people stretch the strings themselves. I’ll restring my guitar today thank you so much!! Btw have you found that it might be beneficial to break in your fingers and callouses with higher tension strings? Or might that be too damaging? I find the lower action much easier for the style of music I play, but since it’s been so long I don’t want to jack up my fingers.
@Andy7String2 жыл бұрын
@@thingsicookforher Giving the strings a stretch speeds up the break in process but after a couple of days they sit fine. For gauges, I play the lightest gauge as possible, it will help if you press a note and play it and release the tension on the finger each time you play it till you find the right pressure to play just before the note starts to buzz, the lighter your touch the better. Guitar is hard enough, give yourself every opportunity you can. Let me know how it goes
@hargisP25 ай бұрын
A Pick?
@Andy7String5 ай бұрын
Yes, am def into hybrid with the pick and fingers...
@maryjane13923 жыл бұрын
fantastic
@Andy7String3 жыл бұрын
Thanks
@mpeltz15343 жыл бұрын
I have a Cordoba Orchestra CE. This is a crossover guitar with a 1 7/8" nut and 16" radius fret board. Should you be able to play either Hard tension or normal tension strings on your guitar? Maybe a silly question..but I can not use normal tension strings on this guitar or is will buzz and give me harmonics I do not want. It was probably set up with Hard tension strings with low action. The action is good but I still have some "dead" strings sounds. Hard to find a good set up person. I just want to know if I should be able to switch back and forth between different tension strings and expect a clear tone.
@Andy7String3 жыл бұрын
Hi Morris, thank you for watching. I find that a good neck adjustment allows for a different tension string
@dannylharper68892 жыл бұрын
I am trying to replace my Yamaha classical strings and don't know much about them. I am mainly a electric/acoustic guitarist, Do you like the high or the low tension?
@Andy7String2 жыл бұрын
Hi Danny, I would go with the normal tension to be honest, they are easier to play. Tone is for the listener though, thank you for watching
@theautist27632 жыл бұрын
Did you have to adjust any kind of parameters on the guitar itself to set up for the high tension strings? Ive been considering getting some to eliminate "flip floppyness". Hopefully it doesn't make playing too stiff.
@Andy7String2 жыл бұрын
Hi, it is best to give the neck a bit of an adjustment to get things good for the tension. Thank you for watching
@linsongmail4 жыл бұрын
Wonderful & awesome
@flapjock4 жыл бұрын
Very Nice.
@adamfarkas70694 жыл бұрын
the cats are hilarious :)
@Andy7String3 жыл бұрын
thank you for watching
@gailorsmond42724 жыл бұрын
Outstanding
@freizeitvideos573911 ай бұрын
video really cool, music not my taste but good technique, would like to see this string test with music I can handle more.
@Andy7String5 ай бұрын
Thank you for the feedback, will def try work on the composition more
@feller67663 жыл бұрын
Why does the timelapse sound like the start of a Christopher Nolan movie
@richarddeboer89342 жыл бұрын
Thx for this info really like your cats 😍Have semi classical guitar question what is really nice effect-module before the amp 👍
@Andy7String2 жыл бұрын
Hey Richard, Thank you for watching, cats are awesome! I find that putting effects before the amp for a classical guitar should be limited to mild compression, in the loop, a bit of verb does a world of good.
@andreworsmond12273 жыл бұрын
amazing
@Andy7String3 жыл бұрын
Thank you! Cheers!
@dikaboyong63334 жыл бұрын
Thanks brother ilove Yamaha ntx🔥
@Andy7String4 жыл бұрын
Thank you for watching. Yamaha does do a great job
@lordemed13 жыл бұрын
using a pick on nylon strings?.kinda like adding ice to a fine single malt scotch.
@Andy7String3 жыл бұрын
thank you for watching, am working on it. Doing a compare between normal and carbon, will try leaving the pic out :)
@deadxbyxdawn306 Жыл бұрын
Why you shredding in drop A on a classical lol
@Amirtak12344 жыл бұрын
wouldn't the hard tensions bend the neck over time? Ebony, Rose or whatever...
@Andy7String4 жыл бұрын
Hi, hard tension will def apply more tension on the neck. I adjust mine every now and then to keep it in check. Thank you for watching
@jinnlekk37274 жыл бұрын
Thx,this is comparision video thai i looking for
@Andy7String4 жыл бұрын
Thank you for watching
@DavidGarcia-pi9wn4 жыл бұрын
Does the tension change the intonation
@Andy7String4 жыл бұрын
Hi David, that's a great question. Intonation normally refers to the pitch of strings when played open, however, it can also be applied to fretted notes, often when pushing down on a fret board the string can be pushed higher in pitch. i do this sometimes if playing under pressure and pushing down hard. Its def something that needs further investigation. Thank you for watching
@guitarjunkie20654 жыл бұрын
Intonation in general refers to the relationships between pitches that we hear or, actually, define, as being "in tune" with each other. In this context, it refers for practical purposes to the relationship between the pitch of a given string when played open and the pitches produced when fretting that same string. So the question really boils down to "Will a change in the tension of my strings affect my ability to play in tune?" Squeezing a string sharp is about the sensitivity of your touch. [I play steel-string acoustic almost exclusively. When I first pick up an electric I'm squeezing the shit out of the strings, and everything I'm fretting is sharp, and I have to consciously relax and adjust.] Whether or not it even CAN be played in tune is about how your instrument is set up. It's very easy to check, by comparing the pitches produced by playing (1) the harmonic at XII & (2) the fretted note at XII. They should be in PERFECT unison. They probably will never all be in perfect unison on any guitar that does not have individually adjustable saddle pieces. That includes every acoustic guitar I've ever seen or heard of. But they can, on a decent instrument, all be close enough that overall when playing you will always be very close - close enough for the vast majority of us to almost never hear the difference doing anything other than the check referred to above. (In fact, a real, skilled perfectionist will hear problems no matter how perfectly your guitar is set up. This is because of two things: 1, the standards by which the frets are positioned are an imperfect compromise, & 2, the standard pitches that we've agreed upon are also an imperfect compromise. If you really want to delve into it, this is a complex and fascinating subject.) To really answer this question you'd probably have to adjust the neck after each change, because as you've mentioned, lower tension strings are allowing the neck to straighten a bit compared to the shape it takes under higher tension. And the whole root of the problem is that a string has to be stretched a bit in order to be fretted. And not every string changes pitch at the same rate per unit of stretch. (The overall length of the string is one of the factors affecting the degree to which the pitch changes relative to a given unit of stretch. Hence the individually adjustable saddles on guitars whose tone will not suffer noticeably for it - aka most electrics. And the slant given the saddles of the rest.) So among others, one of the implications is that any change in the height of a given string will affect the distance that it has to be stretched in order to be fretted, which in turn affects the pitch at which it will play once it is fretted, which means you've affected the accuracy of its intonation. And a change in neck curvature will result in a change in the height of that string above any given fret. This is why I say that if you're really determined to isolate the variable of string set tension re: intonation, you're likely to have to adjust the neck after changing strings. That change in height is likely very slight. But this is a case in which very slight changes can make noticeable, audible differences. And with all this said, I wish I could help to actually answer the question. But I can't. The only classical guitar I have available is somewhat old and very cheap and does not have an adjustable truss rod. So I can't control the curvature of the neck at all. And the (only) way I can adjust string heights is via the saddle height: sanding it down, and gluing strips of rosewood veneer to it to go up. I'm not gonna do that, going back and forth, now, for this. Sorry!
@coba-cobatv8 ай бұрын
I love normal one
@Andy7String5 ай бұрын
Me too :)
@saino-d4 жыл бұрын
cam for a cat..SAW TWO! Btw thanks for the explanation
@Andy7String4 жыл бұрын
Thank you for watching
@muhammadfitriidris43814 жыл бұрын
i love your cat
@Andy7String3 жыл бұрын
thank you for watching
@muhammadfitriidris43813 жыл бұрын
@@Andy7String your welcome 😀
@juanerrodas1394 жыл бұрын
Play without a pick😖
@Andy7String4 жыл бұрын
Hi Juan, I do hybrid but understand what you saying, thank you for watching
@brentbreault76063 жыл бұрын
Not the pick😰
@Andy7String3 жыл бұрын
true that :) Thank you for watching
@2dazetake4 жыл бұрын
Hey there you might wanna keep your fingers away from those cats Andy, unless they have been declawed, I've seen so many people with wrecked little fingers from cat claws in my life,enough to steer clear of them whenever possible,thanks for your review just in time for my restoration of my old Mexican classical, the guy at the music store sold me a set of high tension and now I am going to take them back, for some mediums, thumbs up 😊👍
@Andy7String4 жыл бұрын
Hi, the cats :) glad you found the strings you want, thank you for watching
@RandyH5244 жыл бұрын
Declawing cats is like cutting off their fingers. Its immoral and cruel to do so. Teach your cats not to claw with a clicker by rewarding good behavior. Just saying. Declawing should be only done for medical reasons.
@Andy7String4 жыл бұрын
@@RandyH524 wsup, love ma little guys and wouldn't touch their claws, I speak cat so no clicker required. Thank you for watching.
@darwinbocalbos3 жыл бұрын
Good comparison. I love the WTF. Hahah!
@Andy7String3 жыл бұрын
Thank you for watching, glad you enjoyed it
@JuannPaezz4 жыл бұрын
dude what is going on with the middle music? so annoying
@Andy7String4 жыл бұрын
Hi, will try make it more interesting next time, than you for watching
@shiroumxm20524 ай бұрын
I don´t wanna be an @sshole but.. why making a demo of a classical guitar playing it with plectrum¿ basically nobody plays classical guitar like that. There is no way we can really know how those strings will actually sound
@joeydealbuquerq4 жыл бұрын
You slapping how de um play that
@Andy7String4 жыл бұрын
hi, I don't remember slapping :)
@toster3873 жыл бұрын
0:57 the only music shop...? so who's gonna tell 'em?
@frodo10224 жыл бұрын
2:00 dude you need to replace this shitty bg music
@okioktamiyuda32054 жыл бұрын
Good cat
@slowswimmer91694 жыл бұрын
Neitha
@jdpazmino2010 Жыл бұрын
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
@estebanquinones59188 ай бұрын
It's better to get high tension
@Andy7String5 ай бұрын
Guess its what feels best for you
@oscarordiano21122 жыл бұрын
Your playing is good but your playing the nylon guitar wrong. You know you are.
@Andy7String2 жыл бұрын
thank you for watching :)
@MGPL_3 жыл бұрын
so no difference, got it, thanks
@Andy7String3 жыл бұрын
Hi, thank you for watching. The differences are noted in the first part of the video
@alexx5957-u5s Жыл бұрын
Почти нет никакой разницы в звуке.Только в цене струн ?😂Маркетинг и обман продавцов и производителей.Неслышу большой разницы.Но у вас ещё и гитара не настоящая классическая сделаная в китае,а с электроникой,с эквалайзером и подключением к усилителю.Вы включили эффекты и обработку звука,это я услышал.А разницу между звуком струн,нет не услышал.Кругом обман!😮😢
@henrypagan66572 жыл бұрын
The Hight tension sounds better
@Andy7String2 жыл бұрын
Hi Henry, thank you for watching
@davidmorrison803 Жыл бұрын
This wasn’t great…
@DougHinVA2 жыл бұрын
Boring as hell watching a guitar player show off rather than explain about the title and string tension. Skip it.
@Andy7String2 жыл бұрын
Thank you for your feedback
@valeravahue Жыл бұрын
Гитара звучит так, как будто кто то бьет сланцем по канализационной трубе.
@Andy7String5 ай бұрын
Вот что звучит твоя мама, когда я приглашаю её на чай...
@valeravahue5 ай бұрын
@@Andy7String она умерла, но ты можешь её откопать.
@MonkeyButt50003 жыл бұрын
using a piezo/pickup kind of ruins this comparison