Hihat Speed (Moeller vs. Finger Control) - Daily Drum Lesson

[@terrytk9398]

2 useful comparisons. And well done for mentioning the disadvantages of both methods. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a video discussing the shortcomings of a particular technique - well done for offering an alternative to the hegemony of methods. To answer the set question (or not!) I think, in a performance - rather than practice situation - drummers employ a variety of techniques, quite simply because of the different playing surfaces i.e moving from metal discs of differing weights to heads of different types, thickness etc. Moeller technique might be good for hi-hat or snare drum (as the Radar Love Cesar Z drummer attests) but if you move to toms you will need an arm motion. In addition humans have different physiognomies so ... it’s problematic in this post modernist world to suggest a single strategy can provide a universal solution. Moeller is context bound by the 1930’s and Wilcoxin finger style from the 50’s. So although there are purists I would argue a mix of technique is used, either conscious or otherwise. A very thought provoking video - thanks for posting.✊

[@DailyDrumLesson]

Such a great comment.. Of course you are absolutely right and both are just tools you need in your toolbox to achieve whatever the situation demands. I am going to pin this comment to the top for everyone to see!

[@terrytk9398]

Daily Drum Lesson thanks- an honour indeed.😀

[@pietzsche]

@@terrytk9398 If you're purely going for speed I think the finger technique's probably better, if you watch extreme metal guys doing blast beats the fastest are always using finger technique for both the hats and snare (16th @ 250+ bpm), that said, I think Moeller is probably more versatile in a lot of ways

[@Ricacardo]

@@pietzsche I'm in my second year of learning drums and this is the dilemma I'm faced with. Should I go Moeller or Finger control for when I want to play blast beats? So much practice yet to come

[@pietzsche]

@@Ricacardo Blastbeats are a long road my friend. I think it's worth learning both, at least to the point that you can tell which you prefer. For me, Moeller has always been harder, and finger more natural, and all the drummers I know that play really fast use fingers. As the original commenter mentioned, there's definitely use in having a decent grasp of both (excuse the pun) but for me, for blasting finger wins out. If you look up James Payne's video on French Grip he does a great lesson on finger motion in the context of blastbeats, it's well worth a look

[@MrNoipe]

Best drum channel on KZbin. Thanks for the high quality, no-filler, no-clickbait content.

[@DailyDrumLesson]

Wow, thank you so much. Really appreciate the nice words!

[@kodyhalliday7321]

Would it be smart to do the second exercise 20 minutes before each playing session? Should it be more time? If anyone can help, please reply to this comment. Thank you.

[@ricochetts]

Another great lesson, you are a good educator man. Moeller is way better for me.

[@DailyDrumLesson]

Thank you very much!

[@StoyanStoyanov88]

I use only french grip with my righ hand all the time.

[@DrGray_Drummer]

Are you Lefty?

[@elihartsoe6718]

a drummer to look at for the finger technique is marky ramone. fastest right hand i’ve ever seen

[@NikkeK]

I'm using some kind of hybrid 🤔

[@DailyDrumLesson]

Yeah, many drummers develop their own styles and techniques over time!

[@JC-xx5dm]

What about finger technique with a pumping motion ?

[@SamNaborsDrums]

I guess i use combination of both techniques. Depends of what Im playing too.

[@DailyDrumLesson]

Great! Thank you for watching.

[@nylophone5730]

Your channel makes me want to quit everything in my life and just lock myself in a room with a drum kit and practice all day.

[@marcelszekowski315]

ooga booga

[@jerryao]

I was wondering how to play the high hats for "American idiot" by Green Day lol

[@lucaswedderburn]

You are an amazing teacher, self taught players like myself are very lucky to have people like you to guide us through our journey. Thank you!!

[@nmrtos]

Wow, I've been drumming for a long time but never realized the optimal Moeller downstroke on the hats is on the edge as opposed to both on top with the tip. Sweet lord this is so much easier, thank you!!

[@groovewithpassiondrumlesso2348]

Excellent technique lesson Michy! I have a few students who I have been working with on this concept. I’m glad that you show both the advantages and drawbacks of each technique. I really like the idea of playing these with a shuffle pattern. I will be sharing this video with my students. Thank you so much!

[@DailyDrumLesson]

Thank you very much! Hope this helps your students!

[@groovewithpassiondrumlesso2348]

You’re welcome Michy. I’m sure this will.

[@peterfekete4967]

I have only 4 months of insight into the world of drumming, but it seems that by practicing on the hihat the hand discovers instinctively the Moeller technique, as an economical-ergonomic move. I'll practice that 'whipping motion' more consciously. Thank you for your helpful videos!

[@DailyDrumLesson]

you are absolutely right, the Moeller Technique is a very natural movement. Enjoy your journey :-)

[@gavluk]

In most lessons, as well push-pull technic mentioned. As for me it is kinda moeller but with additional finger-supported UP. I use push-pull/moeller mostly and never liked finger one because that just-finger technic makes very boring even strokes, not too musicial for any cases I can imagine.

[@samikdhar273]

Very helpful indeed. My son is trying both the techniques..

[@shawnwoodley9003]

I would like to learn the moeller style but the finger control feels more natural.

[@DrGray_Drummer]

Excellent technique, rim shots very accurate. I guess French grip has it's place, but very stiff on the hats (sounds like Pearr) on the ride, French has it's place. Good exercise anyway. Moller (Jim Chapin) got so many great drummers sounding even better. Think I'll subscribe

[@DailyDrumLesson]

Thank you very much.. Of course I'd really appreciate to have you as a new subscriber! ;-)

[@grahamsalmons2027]

BrillIant video and what a superb tip (shuffle technique) for exaggerating practice in the Moeller. I’ve subscribed.

[@Andre.e_]

Hi! I notice the 2 overhead microphones on the background, what technique are you using to record drum? Is it like a Glyn Johns with a top mic and a mic. back on the top of your shoulders??

[@DailyDrumLesson]

It is called 'recorder man technique'.. Very simillar to Glyn Johns, but it puts the kick and the snare in the center of the stereo field, so it is very phase accurate. It is not that easy t oset up, but I really like it. Just google it and you will find lots of information on how it works exactly ;-)

[@Andre.e_]

@@DailyDrumLesson thank you, I'll check it later!

[@tendingtropic7778]

subscribed! could you please tell me what kit/cymbals/snare you are using here?

[@ausgangssperre-band]

I don't play on the edge. I play with the shaft on top of the hihat and the tip. Makes the hand movement very small and the sound more crisp than playing it on the side of the hihat.

[@ralfkirsten124]

Which technic would u prefer 4 blast beats?

[@DailyDrumLesson]

For Blast Beats I would go for finger control, because you don't want the accent to get that machine gun like sound.

[@ralfkirsten124]

@@DailyDrumLesson thänx..!!

[@R-Ws308]

start with slow beats, master these, then you'll use these things you learned, on faster beats. Dave Lombardo said the same about trying to play Slayer. These guys are pro's 4 a reason, because they have put in the hard work, practice and study, so they perform well for the record company.

[@napalmpig3772]

Here's some 200-300 bpm blast beats in slow mo. kzbin.info/www/bejne/d2q5l4quaN90j9E

[@fordgt3542]

I think i tried to learn moeller first on my e drums, but the problem is that the angle of the hit hat didn't allowed me to perform at high speeds. However i practice moller this week and when I felt kinda prepared to play on a fast song, i realised that I was automatically unsing finger control instead in order to keep on with the song. I don't know why but i think that even though i played on finger control, i couldn't get to that speed without some little practice on moller but i don't want to give up on this technique

[@edmcpherson127]

Anyone try a drop-catch double stroke type motion instead? It ends up being sort of a combination of these two, with a down up motion in the wrist like Moeller, but in french grip and using the fingers to help get the second note in. I haven't got it very fast yet, but it feels good. I've seen others do it too, but I've never seen a lesson on it.

[@DailyDrumLesson]

Great comment! That one is called the push pull technique. I left it out of this video because it is a more "exotic" technique and I just wanted to cover the basics here. But that is one for a future video! Have a great day and thanks for stopping by!

[@edmcpherson127]

@@DailyDrumLesson Hey awesome, thanks for responding! Would this be a good way to get rid of the natural accents in Meoller technique without sacrificing as much control as using all fingers would?

[@DailyDrumLesson]

Absolutely.. It is harder to learn, than the other two techniques, but does exactly what you are looking for!

[@scroxydrums]

check out Matt McGuire's Twenty One Pilots cover and how he mastered this pushpull technique (which is purely insane): kzbin.info/www/bejne/rnfcoXupfseGnbM

[@DailyDrumLesson]

Thanks for sharing the link.. Matt is a beast!

[@kukkuzvlog1380]

Sir pls add some moeller hand. tricks and speed techniques pls

[@DailyDrumLesson]

There is more to come.

[@geoffhillyard4354]

Brilliant, but its not easy to see the music, could you do something with that please. Thankyou.

[@samuelbrallier1692]

Your drumset sounds great, what do you have?

[@RainCityStateOfMind]

Great video, but how would you apply Moeller to a pattern that’s an 8th note followed by two 16th notes? Play the downbeats and upbeats as downstrokes and all the a’s as upstrokes? Would it be better to use finger technique?

[@DailyDrumLesson]

it depends if where I want the accent. If I want no accent I use my fingers. If I want the accent on the last note I use an upstroke on the first two and if I want the accent on the first one, I let the stick bounce for the last two notes.

[@kiliankraus]

your high hat sound is so nice I'm sampling them in a song of mine, hope that's alright

[@mommagic8793]

Very nice.................... explain more about how to increase both hand speed..........if already uploaded then give link...and one more thing I have requested the tutorial about waltz........I am waiting.........thnx

[@DailyDrumLesson]

I got a Video on Rudiments, where I explain the single and the double stroke in more detail: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jYSmaJyrn8-aldE Don't know when I got the time to do a video about the waltz. But I recognized your request! Thanks for watching!

[@waynehughes3639]

Great lesson. On the music notation, why is base drum note different on 1 and 3?

[@DailyDrumLesson]

thank you Wayne.. What do you mean by different?

[@alvarop1984]

My limit is 85 bpm :(...after that, the fist hurts as hell :(

[@DailyDrumLesson]

after 80bpm it will take a long time. Slow down a bit and make sure to be more relaxed. Never practice to a point where you hurt yourself.

[@ARDrummer]

Moeller for the win :)

[@DailyDrumLesson]

Moeller bros ;-)

[@ARDrummer]

@@DailyDrumLesson 👊

[@elijahbreakbee8217]

Thanks for the overviews of these techniques, but the first one has nothing to do with moeller. It's a classical 'down-up' or 'push-pull' motion. they are confused with each other so often that i actually start to think that people don't watch the greatest drum technique encyclopedia of all times - Jojo Mayer's - Secret Weapon For The Modern Drummer Part 1. Mayer is showing the differences between push pull and moeller in a very clear way.

[@homerinchinatown2]

Interesting, but I don't know if I agree. The first approach utilizes a forearm/wrist driven stroke with a bit of a pumping motion and the last note of each two-note group is a part of the upstroke, which is essentially mini-moeller. The push-pull as I've seen it described is more of a finger-driven motion

[@gmoney1592]

Great lesson as always from you. These are 2 very useful techniques. And a new way to approach hi hat playing. Thanks for showing these to us

[@DailyDrumLesson]

You are welcome Gary, have a great week!

[@randomjap8431]

I started playing the drums just 4 months ago and practicing the Moeller technique today. I don't know if I'm doing it wrong, but what I found so far about it is that it's very tiring. Tried playing RHCP's Dark Necessities and even finishing the intro without getting tired or losing coordination is quite challenging

[@steveward6185]

Great job. Thanks for taking the time to publish

[@DailyDrumLesson]

You are very welcome, Steve. Thank you for taking the time to watch and leaving a comment!

[@mikeegarciaaa8369]

How about play finger method but German grip 🤷‍♂️, works for me

[@DailyDrumLesson]

Absolutely.. Go for it!

[@stoklund]

I use both techniques. Mostly Moeller. 3. Technique would be clean wrist strokes. These can be played almost or just as fast as fingers. Easily around 110bpm and have more bite than finger strokes. Once seen a video where Mike Mangini played around 1100-1200 strokes I one minute without sticks only with wrist strokes. 🤷‍♂️😄😉

[@danialikhsan6569]

snare drum sound sick af

[@DailyDrumLesson]

Thank you very much.. That is the magic of the Supraphonic ;-)

[@ElBoyoElectronico]

Great video, but for me personally the trouble begins with tempos around the 100 bpm mark. In this range pure finger as well as pure moeller both don't work. I am trying to use some hybrid technique (moeller, technique and push-pull), but it is really hard to implement. Unfortunately I still have to find someone explaining their approach to such high tempos in a understandle manner.

[@ErrantChordier]

Yeah 100 is not easy. I feel the practical limit for Moeller is about 100-110, and shuffle Moeller around 80. Any faster and you'd need a planet with higher gravity, or play too soft to be useful. At his 80 shuffle he's already bringing down the second hit with a little finger control, it's no longer pure Moeller (in my understanding of it). I will however say that I can comfortably shuffle 100 with push-pull, and can actually push-pull shuffle 120 for some time which is totally cooking and burns up my arm. If a mediocre drummer like me can shuffle 120, then 100 push-pull straight beats should be doable by most people with some practice.

[@ErrantChordier]

As for a detailed explanation how I shuffle 100+ bpm push-pull on hi-hats. First, for my application, I want a very swung shuffle at 95-105, and I very much want the first beat accented. So I do an *inverted* push-pull: I accent the pull, rather than the push. With the shuffle, there just isn't enough time to generate any power from the wrist. My description is this inverted style, and I believe it works well for high speed push-pulls with accents, straight beats or with shuffle. 1. Before the push, bow the wrist downward a little, pointing the tip of the stick downward. It's only 5 or 10 degrees, but it feels like you're stabbing the hi-hat. Lead downward with the thumb- the palm rolls outward. 2. At the push, the fingers must be relaxed to open easily, especially the fourth finger. Wrist stays bowed. Your hand moves down, and the stick bounces off the hi-hat into loose fingers. 3. While the hand is down there, the pull is done with a powerful clamping of the fourth finger against the muscle of the thumb. 4. On the way up from the push, angle the wrist and stick upward, and move the wrist itself upward as well. This allows you to get more height on the stick tip, so that when you get to step 1, it has more downward momentum. Also, lead upward with the thumb, palm rolls inward. At slower speeds with straight beats, it works totally fine to do a normal push-pull. Even slower, you get the help of gravity. At high speeds and especially a shuffle and more than that if you want accents, it doesn't work anymore. There just isn't enough time to properly use your wrist and still play at reasonable volume. To get the wrist if you are that fast, you still need some stick height, and that stick height comes from the bounce of the pull. To get such a bounce the pull has to be powerful to begin with, which ends up turning the pull into the accent anyway. Therefore, I think it is best to go inverted at such speeds. The fastest I can manage, for about 10 seconds, is 130 bpm with an accented shuffle using this technique. The faster part of the push-pull is the pull, and the slower part is the push, so for a shuffle it's important to match up slow and fast- it ends up going inverted. It is a weird but cool looking technique when done right. It sort of looks like your arm and stick are a jump rope. Like I said, I'm a mediocre drummer. But it works for me and I understand why it works. So unless Dave Weckl comes in here to explain the real deal, or you find a better explanation elsewhere, it's what we've got. Michi's other video "Hihat Speed Part 2 (Push Pull Technique) - Daily Drum Lesson" shows him doing a straight beat push-pull at 100.

[@ElBoyoElectronico]

@@ErrantChordier Thank you so much for this elaborate answer! I will try this inverted push pull technique out. Learning stuff like this is always interesting!

[@ErrantChordier]

@@ElBoyoElectronico Cool, glad you liked it! Moving the wrist up and down was something I figured out by feel, but it sure was hard figuring out the biomechanics of why going up and down with the wrist is easier, in an explainable way. Anyways, good luck with it

[@alaskatoburningmen4549]

@@ErrantChordier Hey, thanks for sharing your technique, quite elaborate i must say agree.

[@rovanbrakel2305]

Very heplfull thanks man

[@waynehughes3639]

I do not understand the bass drum notation. Why are there notations on 2 and 4 beats? The base drum is only kicked on the 1 and 3 beats. Am I misunderstanding the music notation? Thanks for your reply.

[@oneampscouse]

Wayne Hughes the 2 and 4 beats notations are the snare drum. Hope that helps.

[@DailyDrumLesson]

Exactly. The kick is on 1 and 3 and the snare is on 2 and 4!

[@Ricacardo]

My left hand is developping finger control where as my right hand seems to want to gravitate towards moeller. Is this normal?

[@garysmith3173]

Excellent video. I prefer using the Moeller technique.

[@DailyDrumLesson]

Another Moeller bro ;-)

[@curious9]

Thanks for the video Michi! Any advice on getting beyond 80bpm? ) I feel stuck at this tempo with my hand getting quite tense. What is playable range of tempos with the Moeller technique? I believe some songs are played up to 100bpm, but I can't realize how to get there 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@DailyDrumLesson]

You are very welcome. Getting beyond 80bpm will take quite some time. The way I pushed it was like this: 1. Find the highest tempo at which you can play perfectly loose (for this example 70bpm). 2. Play a groove for 5 minutes straight at 65 bpm. 3. Take a couple of minutes rest and go up by 1 bpm and play that 5 minutes straight. 4. Repeat that until you reach a tempo where you feel your hand is getting tense. This is where you stop. This tempo -5 bpm is the starting tempo for the next practice session. You don't always have to reach a higher tempo than before. You can go from 65 to 70 for a couple of days. Just never push it beyond the point where you start to get tense. Depending on your practice time, you can of course do that in blocks of 2,3 or 4 minutes instead of 5. Just stick to that routine and you will see how much further you can push the limits. There are people who are playing that at 100bpm with ease, but I am definitely not one of them. The intro to this video (0:05) is at 90bpm which is a nice tempo for me. I could probably squeeze out a couple of bpm's more, but probably not for the duration of a whole song.

[@curious9]

@@DailyDrumLesson Thanks for such a detailed answer and sharing your experience! Definitely have to try this next time.

[@djstickxb2615]

As a new drummer moeller is better for me..fingers not where they need to be for the finger tech.

[@DailyDrumLesson]

Moeller is way easier to get working, so it is a good idea to concentrate on that when beginning! Thank you for watching!

[@CamiloMoyaBaterista]

Play blast beats bro

[@CooperDrums]

Is it common the feel a burning sensation in the wrist when playing moeller for a period of time? Will this go away the more I practice it?

[@andrew007s]

The comparison bit in the video is the best on KZbin. I'm learning the moeller technique and the comparison made so much sense! You explained it so clearly. Thanks!

[@theCountOfTotal]

Thanks! Exactly what i was looking for. Nice explanation 😊

[@simonperry8569]

Great vid. Just learning the Moeller technique and discovering that accents are sort of unavoidable because of the whip on the first downstroke.

[@terrybillington2482]

i use turbo style , p,s good post

[@TeleologyMusic]

Great lesson and superb snare sound. How do you get that snare to sound like that without using any damping? There are no unpleasant pitch resonances or ringing at all!

[@javrod613]

This does not help

[@daztastic147]

I have a ‘bad’ technique, I mean I play with a lot of arm and wrist but have played songs up to 140bpm but that’s my limit. I want to do a cover of rebel yell (around 169 bpm) and I just cannot do it! I need to start practising this Moeller technique! I wish I had lessons as a kid but I started playing drums as an adult and just tought myself 😌

[@philpants44]

Fingers man

[@segura4759]

Using push pull :)

[@stanleyvo5198]

Wow ....can you do in slow motion....I m so slow learner....thank you

[@tkelly830]

Great lesson

[@DailyDrumLesson]

Thank you very much!

[@waynehughes3639]

Thanks , now it makes sense to me.

[@thesilencefree2023]

Thanks dude. I got it. even though i got a little bit of knowledge.. thanks again

[@DailyDrumLesson]

Great to hear that, thank you for watching!

[@thesilencefree2023]

@@DailyDrumLesson you're welcome. I'm very grateful with your vid. Goodluck dude..👍

[@alexhilsbos]

Excellent compare & contrast of the two alternative techniques.

[@hellobye6364]

I think fingertip is good for me cuz the other one is kinda complicated for me 😂

[@pfftffrfft6786]

I have a question, can I use the half time shuffle technique to train moeller on my weak hand?

[@pietzsche]

Yeah just play a Chicago/Texas shuffle, that is, both hands play the shuffle, one on snare one on hats

[@DailyDrumLesson]

wanted to say the exact same thing as pietzsche! Here is a link to a "less than a minute" video about the Texas Shuffle: kzbin.info/www/bejne/aauQdqmVpb2YpJY

[@LAstudio8]

A nice drum lesson. I’m looking forward to learning more from your channel.

[@sucknoob3005]

I use fingers for raid and moeller for hihat. The main argument is that the hihat has less rebound than raid and so moeller fits better there.

[@curtishill109]

👍

[@Drumistry]

thanks for the tips!

[@J.F.Sebastian6]

Hi, my name is StereoMike... all the time, the beginning of your videos, reminds me of the song Drinking in L.A... thank you for your channel, help me a lot!!!

[@DailyDrumLesson]

Just listened to the song.. really cool, thanks a lot! ;-)

[@ManxKeys]

Thanks man, I use both.

[@DailyDrumLesson]

probably the smartest way!

[@khd17]

Great excersise, it's going to take practice to master this one!

[@joeg4707]

Cool lesson, Michi.

[@DailyDrumLesson]

Thank you, Joe!

[@mr.nugglas4397]

FUNKHEY

[@ralleralle8620]

there is no rebound at all on hi hat

[@DZNTZ]

Of course there is. If you keep your hats sufficiently closed, it’s just as easy to bounce a stick off of as any other solid surface. If you can get rebound on a hard practice pad or tabletop, you can get rebound on a hi hat.

[@rubenmachi2632]

Thanks for the great content that you produce for us, i love your channel!

[@DailyDrumLesson]

Thanks bro!

[@79py76]

Hey man...if you are going to teach people how to play, please make sure you are using proper stick technique. It seems as though your Fulcrum is very underdeveloped. Allowing your index finger to come off the stick like that could influence aspiring drummers in a negative way. Thanks

[@olliemedsy]

It's having a relaxed fulcrum. I see many drummers do it this way. Watch Baard Kolstad. His fulcrum is looooose and he plays like a beast!