Historical Fencing Equipment And Training Methods

[@bluetea1400]

You could look even further back to when special suits of armor were used for fight practice/tournament. Many of which (especially in later periods) would never have been worn in battle and were specially built for tournament on foot (much like the specialized joust armors). It’s funny there’s always been this problem of “how do we safely simulate a real battle.” This struggle of, well we really don’t want people to die... but we need to practice killing each other....

[@Sceadusawol]

"Why do HEMA practitioners use modern fencing gear?" Because it's available.

[@PatrickKniesler]

Equipment makers are really receptive to suggestions and are constantly testing new stuff. Leon Paul employees, I know, have been active on social media taking comments and suggestions. I'd love to see someone put some bars over mesh to see it. maybe just the forehead. I feel like someone already has?

[@Sceadusawol]

@@PatrickKniesler I agree entirely, but it's a simple numbers game. Or, at least, it has been. R&D is expensive, and HEMA is a relatively new (ironically) sport. We are seeing HEMA specific things being made, though.

[@MultiFreak107]

Unlike Hema fighters sports fencers in saber and foil only get points, when their body is moving forward while attacking. As the entire body is behind the strike, forces can be very high. After a tragic death in the 1982 Olympics standards have been drastically increased. These high standards are the main reason for sport fencing equipment being used even though the chopping movements in Hema require different qualities like better rear guards.

[@Nala15-Artist]

@@LancetFencing What's stopping you from "officially making your case"? You're on KZbin.

[@The_Gallowglass]

I love this one guy's helmet at the local guild. It's an actual bascinet helmet with a heavy-duty mesh riveted to the opening.

[@umartdagnir]

Watching this while sewing additional padding to my HEMA mask.

[@nathancole6678]

Maybe you could do a comprehensive video about older rules and equipment.

[@retohaner5328]

I tried the (presumably) latest Rearguard version at Dreynevent this year. It was absolutely fantastic.

[@christopherdrekr1078]

I'm a modern fencer too ! 30 yds 4x4s at 1m spacing yesterday ;)

[@benjaminblakely3421]

Thanks for the interesting video Matt. Our club is going to be celebrating it's 350th anniversary next year (founded by d'Artagnan while he was military governor of Lille) and we're looking to organize some sort of conference to mark the occasion, something on the history and 'evolution' of fencing from that time up to modern fencing - how did we get from fencing as someone like d'Artagnan understood it to what we practice today? I'm realizing thanks to your video that a discussion on equipment needs to be part of that conversation. As far as masks go, I practice foil and rapier and I've been quite happy with the new Leon Paul Hema mask because I can easily swap out the electric foil bib with the bigger and thicker hema bib, and no longer need to lug around 2 masks. As far as rules go, of course we have endless discussions over rapier rules, how to make things more "realistic" while still safe and enjoyable, and again I very much enjoyed your video on the subject of rapier competition rules a year or so ago. In foil fencing I've been increasingly annoyed by the modern technique of advancing on your opponent with the point up and away or down and away so as to avoid the beat. I think this is exploiting a loop-hole in a set of rules that were originally intended to be martial in character. Not exactly cheating, but not exactly honest either. More than the face and head, if I could change one thing in foil rules it would be to make the sword arm part of the valid target area. Fat chance of that ever happening.... At any rate we're still just beginning to flesh out ideas for our conference, if you have any suggestions they would be very welcome. Maybe we can even get you to come and give a talk on "historical equipment and training methods"?

[@fiendishrabbit8259]

The man that popularized the fencing mask was Nicolas Texier de La Boëssière. Before that it was generally looked down on and viewed as something for amateurs, but Boëssière used them extensively at his Académie royale polytechnique des armes (Royal academy for fencing and horseriding) and with the help of his students, among them Chevalier de Saint-Georges, marketed them for the fencing schools of Paris and London.

[@TemenosL]

This is so true. This is a problem too with re-enactors who trust their experiences 'reenactment fighting' as though it's experience is closer to the real thing than is warranted. There's one very specific issue with shield and spear group fighting that often goes over people's heads which is that in reality spears are relatively sharp, and shields fairly readily absorb thrusts into them which can easily get the spears stuck. A lot of re-enactors have invented methods of spear-fighting that use the spear to 'push' shields open with absolutely no consideration as to the tendency for that spearhead to become lodged immediately in the shield.

[@kevinreardon2558]

Brilliant. It looks like we need virtual reality to pick up the task.

[@everybodytogether5532]

I took entry level sabre when i was a young fella but couldnt afford to continue. Chose boyscout dues over any other "club" now that im older and more well off id love to jump back into western martial arts. Love your content!!

[@TyLarson]

Heard good things about Jonathan's masks and he's a pretty cool guy.

[@Narguhl]

One of the best videos you made so far.

[@KirkWilliams300]

KZbin club for hema practitioners? I would be interested

[@kevindelapp7533]

Great video, Matt, thanks! To add to your points about the ways in which equipment affects rules, it's also worth noting the ways in which, in Olympic fencing, the scoring equipment has partially dictated rule changes. More precise and reliable electronic-scoring technologies (failed experiments with the capteur notwithstanding) have had a huge impact on Olympic rules. And so has the rise in publicity: many rules changes (from right-of-way timings to en garde distances to the types of footwork that are disallowed) have been driven by perceptions about what would better appeal to audiences. As HEMA continues to gain in popularity and its competitions attract more spectators, it'll be interesting to see whether or how that impacts decisions about HEMA rules too.

[@sparrowhawk81]

If I ran a historical fencing club I'd be highly tempted to start new students out on epee and sport saber to be honest. In my opinion the absolute first things any fencer needs to get quite proficient at (don't care if you are talking about olympic fencing, kendo, "heemuh") are footwork and distance. If you can't move well and efficiently and judge distance, you won't be a good fencer. Period. Sport fencing teaches this very well. Having said that, obviously mileage may vary, not all sport clubs are great about this and yes, I am aware that high level sport saber for example at the Olympics basically looks like ugly rock paper scissors.

[@williamjohnson476]

I mean when I look at pictures of many fencing clubs in the late 1800s and early 1900s there are often other weaponry- rapiers, daggers, kendo shinai, etc. So I feel like doing that would probably make it more of a real fencing club than a run of the mill olympic club or hema club lol. We have a club here in Halifax that is run by some olympic fencers who also did Kenjitsu and Fiore and it's hecka neato.

[@milesmcinerney5594]

horsebow masks (previously made by that guys masks) have basically fused fencing masks and helmets and they are really good. They can take almost any hit without breaking and they have a suspension system to help absorb some of the percussion of hits too. I know someone who has one of the originals which is 20 years old and after heavy use it has only minor dents, he's just had to redo the leather trimming after all this time. www.horsebows.com/fencing-masks.php

[@shehryarkhan8360]

Hey Matt, just a quick suggestion for a video( if you get around to it, of course). Could you do a video on the 1864 light cavalry trooper's sword, and the infamous 1796 heavy cavalry trooper's and officer's swords maybe? Cheers!

[@andrewk.5575]

Personally, I have always wondered how they trained Italian rapier before the development of masks because if you look at Giganti or Capo Fero there are lots and lots of attacks aimed specifically at the face, throat, and eyes. I am generally an advocate of the "well why don't you just demonstrate some control then?" school of fencing thought, but I would not want to train thrusts to the eye with no mask.

[@ShuajoX]

That bayonet fencing mask, or helmet rather, somewhat brings to mind a kendo mask. I think I remember seeing Japanese bayonet partner drills done with kendo masks too. Of course, the tips of shinai and such like are quite a bit larger than most other training weapons.

[@williamjohnson476]

Yeah it's part of Jukendo- Japanese Bayonet fencing.

[@ShuajoX]

@@williamjohnson476 That's it! Thanks, I couldn't remember the name.

[@MikeGoodman]

Great video. Thank you very much for your perspective!

[@johngilbert974]

Loved the historical bayonet helmet - and questioning why the HEMA masks are modeled on foil masks instead. Interestingly - The KENDO mask/helmet is designed to protect against almost exactly the same blows as are used in HEMA longsword. And like the bayonet helmet, the Kendo helmet used ridged bars instead of mesh to protect the face. But it also includes ridged throat protection, protects the side of the neck against thrusts, and protects the tops of the shoulders against downward cuts - and includes an air space between the top of the head and helmet to make impacts lesser. But like the HEMA masks, the Kendo helmet does not protect well against horizontal blows to the head or neck. Personally, I think a hybrid helmet with light reinforcing bars (hockey helmet cage ?) covered by FIE mesh, combat / football helmet padding, a plastic reinforced bib, and built in back of head and collar bone protection in the shape of a Sallet or Roman helmet would be ideal for HEMA.

[@2008davidkang]

Would you make a video detailing the differences between cutting tatami mats, clay and lead bars? There's various accounts on cutting lead and clay as a test of skill, however there's little video compared to the multitude of tatami cutting.

[@liammorris9372]

From what i know (though i can’t remember if my hema instructor told me this or if i learned it from a video) there were specialised weapons for cutting various different materials. These weapons were primarily used by sword or knife making guilds to show off their skill. So you’d have a lead cutting sword which would be specially designed to cut through hard materials (fairly heavy, not a very fine edge, etc), and this would be different than your silk cutting sword which was specially designed to cut through silk handkerchiefs (very light, razor sharp). Though you may be talking about a different thing, as i’ve never heard of people cutting through lead bars or clay in the same way that modern hema practitioners cut through tatami mats.

[@2008davidkang]

@@liammorris9372 Liam Morris Indeed there's a lead cutting sword. However if I recall correctly only if the bars are relatively thick. I've seen a video where someone cut through mild steel with a work hardened bronze sword (I think it was thegnthrand maybe) so I would think it'd be still relevant if the bars aren't overly thick, with lead being a soft metal. And to add there's many accounts of bones severed cleanly with a cut being skull or through the entire body from shoulder to waist, and swords cutting through oxen with ease, all of which are in contact with hard material so I'd doubt a specialised weapon for lead cutting is manditory. Both clay and lead cutting was mention both in books and in this channel but haven't shown in detail the results and significance in both. So yea

[@jello788]

Could you do a video about medieval maces? Striking techniques or manual references would help

[@qboger]

Fascinating video Mr. Easton! What led to your hiatus in competition? Did you have an injury that's knocked you out of commission for rougher stuff?

[@cidvar]

I use the same mask. The extra side padding inside it muffles your hearing much more than other masks and can fold your ears down If you put it on quickly. Neither are a deal breaker as I use it more than my other masks.

[@justsomeguy3931]

Another Schola video watched en garde. 10:25 Good points about how people often practice hitting objects or with weapons that don't respond like people. That's why one of my favorite things was stabbing into trees with my machete, to learn how to extract it and make up for the blade geometry not being very thrust optimized at all lol Sound historical and martial information, as always

[@vyderka]

Talk, please, about single stick :)

[@frankheilingbrunner7852]

This episode has prompted me to think about another difference between formal fencing and medieval combat: A fencing mask gives the wearer broad vision, but a plate-armour helmet gives the wearer only a narrow slot to see through. What do the historical fencing manuals say about taking advantage of your opponent's blind spots and preventing your opponent from doing the same to you?

[@Hesric]

I forgot about the fact that background isn't a greenscreen. That blade grab had me there.

[@silentfox139]

Talk more of single stick. It doesn't get talked about and almost a lost art. Sure there is Filipino escrima or Kali but single stick was in the Olympic once

[@Brigadier9]

Palcaty from the Polish school too!

[@noelrodriguez88]

Great video! Really appreciated your point about how your gear can influence one's use of a martial art. I've practiced mainly eastern arts but have been doing hema for the last few years. But one thing I noticed immediately was how the context of hema sparring is a lot like what I used to do in traditional jujitsu. My instructor would do a "rondori" (sorry for the misspelling I don't know japanese 🤦‍♂️) where your techniques were tested by non-compliant partners. Best part, your opponent came at you from multiple angles because you stood in the center of a circle. So you basically had to "survive" for a length of time. Got me thinking, maybe a type of hema competition where you have to do as many hits as you can against 2 other opponents and do your best to take the least amount of hits from them? Anyway, great content as always!

[@2008davidkang]

If you make a video about it in your club I'd watch it.

[@noelrodriguez88]

@@2008davidkang Maybe someday I'll get a chance 👍🏼

[@wiskadjak]

How would you revise foil rules to bring them more in line with preparation for an actual duel? Would right of way still be retained to teach proper defence? More single time attacks, disarms, full body as target? I know you've touched on this before but I'm curious to see how classical foil, with its full range of blade work, could be brought back in line with its historical roots.

[@theJellyjoker]

You might want to look at the Kendo mask.

[@ODonnchadhaBrian]

I second this

[@scholagladiatoria]

In the early days of HEMA a few people tried to use them, but they are designed only to take an impact from bamboo shinai - they don't have enough impact protection for steel or even wooden weapons.

[@hobeto13]

It is not designed to be hit actually. You would normally hit just upper part of the helmet instead of bars which protects face in Kendo. Of course those bars designed to protect you if your opponent somehow cannot manage to hit correctly but even then it's not safe for brute slashes from any other kind of weapon or thrusting since the gap between bars are so wide.

[@ChannelKasaron]

What set of rules are you a personal fan of from a martial as well as a gamesmanship standpoint?

[@markkelly6259]

The bayonet fencing helmet makes me wonder why there is not more use of lacrosse helmets or American football hermets with mesh face protection in HEMA. Literally millions of dollars have been spent to develop football helmets that are lightweight, comfortable and well ventilated while providing protection from impact to the entire head. They already have attachment points for face protection.

[@dimitrizaitsew1988]

Do you know what they used instead of a mask in the days of longsword and langmesser?

[@oneparticularlysmartape]

Probably a lot of balls.

[@45calibermedic]

Control. Training to the point that one could "withhold [his] point with courtesy" while training. Not sparring, but being presented problems and solutions by a master who would hold his student's timing, posture, and intent to a very high standard. In this way, they could and often did learn with sharp swords, even from day one, as still seen in some Indian and Japanese schools of swordsmanship.

[@Einygmar]

Probably helmets (barbutes,sallets,armets,etc.) or coifs similar to those used on a battlefield.

[@2008davidkang]

I would imagine a thick padded coif. There are accounts of thick turbans stopping razor sharp tulwar cuts from horseback, so a thick coif most definitely should do for feders.

[@Vaylash]

@@2008davidkang Those turbans were filled with hair my friend

[@CruelDwarf]

A question: how well a modern fencing mask like the one you showed in the video would fare in actual combat with medieval weapons? Are they comparable to a proper helmet?

[@scholagladiatoria]

Not very well at all - they are designed to stop relatively light weapons like swords, but against a heavier weapon like a hammer or axe you'd be knocked straight out I would think. And they have no/minimal back of head protection. They do stand up to sharp cuts and thrusts very well though and I have seen a fencing mask tested to destruction with a variety of sharp weapons - the swords could not at all get through the mesh. However a warhammer did.

[@jintsuubest9331]

Excellent for sword fight. No idea how well it will stand up against polearms or blunt force weapon.

[@2008davidkang]

I wonder if there's a way to stick a buckler or two securely onto somewhere vulnerable on your mask, jacket etc. And if it will help, after all it is steel.

[@jintsuubest9331]

@@2008davidkang better off just get a properly shaped plate.

[@2008davidkang]

@@jintsuubest9331 I wish there's more reasonably priced steel protection. Maybe one day some genius can design some protection that can fit a wider range of sizes. Lamellar, laminated plates or splints which you can adjust the size to fit better? Just speculating.

[@messylaura]

Matt, do you think modern round riot shields have a good place in sword and shield training, i ask this as they are clear so you can omit the traditional blocked view of what your opponent is doing. we use plastic etc swords to train anyway

[@Maldunn]

Great video! At your school do you do teaching via the historic training methods, tools, and rulesets as you mentioned at the end?

[@mikesummers-smith4091]

Or Lor', not a minute in, and he's already mentioned exposure, this site is filthier than the opening scene of Romeo and Juliet. (The command "Draw thy tool" seems to have dropped out of sport fencing.)

[@thebobbytytesvarrietyhour4168]

Does anyone else dislike what the prevalence of feders has done to competition?

[@pieoverlord]

Here's a question I've always had: why do modern fencing - of any kind - helmets use meshes instead of clear visors? No chance of a small blade slipping into your eye, resistant to dents and difficult to shatter while offering full visibility.

[@01ZombieMoses10]

@pieoverlord Well a full-face, clear visor would get very steamy and fog under the highly athletic activity of dueling. You could add breaths, but I'm not sure how that would affect the rigidity and overall sturdiness (I'm not totally familiar with the material properties of all available clear polymers)

[@highchamp1]

Fitness Fitness is the purpose of Sport (in my opinion) So you could play Basketball (instead of Fencing) and get the same benefits. (and may prevent any training scars) Combat Ju Jitsu found it was weak and ineffective (against Judo) for all the combative effectiveness it practiced. Something to think about. Smart I think people are smart enough to separate the two. (TV and movies Vs reality)

[@Leonard89008]

Hey Matt, didnt you wanna make a Video about Swordfeats Like Händlerchief cutting/ showing those? You talked about that few month ago...really eager to hear about that...

[@scholagladiatoria]

Yeah I am keen to do it, but it's not logistically very easy to arrange and I've been busy with new baby, work etc. I will get around to it. :-)

[@wfobeor]

So how well would a modern day fencing mask perform on a medieval battlefield (for the area that it protects, ie if we only compare the front)? Obviously a 14-15 century helmets offers much more plate, so would the better visibility of a modern day fencing mask worth the trade off in a battle situation?

[@fabiovarra3698]

eh, against polearms, arrows, bolts and bullets quite poorly

[@leafpratt]

Do you know what month you started your club officially?

[@SirFrederick]

I just got that sword next to the shield (smallsword?) it's as heavy as a saber. I'm got to replace to blade since my club is starting Smallsword soon

[@williamjohnson476]

Where would one get one of the bayonet helmets? Is there anyone making replicas? I think the training equipment of the world wars are an underlooked topic right now.

[@skavenmatt3904]

Great video boss, are there any resources for mensur you'd recommend? Id love a video on that subject as well, it may be too niche for you though

[@Kroiznacher]

You mean German Academic Fencing? How is your german?

[@Kroiznacher]

Ludwig Caesar Roux - Die Hiebfechtkunst

[@jacobs113]

Could you put a link to websites to buy hema gear?

[@umartdagnir]

Gear: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hou74wvTDvCXEiV94sqPHHftNFNiBnOTTd3GRZSh3hE/edit#gid=0 Weapons: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kLx0TxPBRav6yG81fVNegE-rBqfEAWYZpYOM6ODy2CQ/edit#gid=0

[@emarsk77]

Most of HEMA protective equipment would need a deep rethinking.

[@rogerlafrance6355]

You did not mention Hanover and other military schools that often only wore goggles, the idea being that they needed to get over to the fear of being hurt in combat. That probably was a concept in most of the past with practice weapons that could still hurt you?

[@CitizenSmith50]

Perhaps you could marry a fencing mask to a "Men" (Kendo mask); they are pretty substantial and designed to prevent blows!

[@holyknightthatpwns]

From my experience, a men kabuto interferes with vision more than a fencing mask. Plus, it isn't as safe against thrusts - it's designed to catch round bamboo sticks, not thin rapier points

[@GeneralMcCracker]

Fencing masks aren't flimsy either. They can take straight steel longsword Blows and thrusts. I never saw a mask failure in 8 years of HEMA

[@DreynHarry]

750 g was the original weight for the sabre now it is limited to 500g

[@AzureBeatPony]

How did they do it? First blood drawn from a blow to the head, any volunteers?

[@AzureBeatPony]

@Colin Cleveland That was actually a reference to a german ruleset for longsword fencing.

[@AzureBeatPony]

@Colin Cleveland IIRC, If you killed them, you could be treated as a murderer, and possibly executed. On the other hand, brain damage probably wasn't on their radar when it comes to potential injuries, so even if they were expecting a lot of control, there were probably some lasting injuries sustained as a matter of course.

[@goran2268]

Why wouldn't an actual helmet be ideal? For example: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/Visored_Bascinet_MET_04.3.240_007june2015.jpg Its main purpose is to protect against heavy blows to the head unlike the fencing mask. And as its protectiveness has been proved in actual battle, it should also be sufficient protection in the practice for battle I would assume. Also, if one were practicing for a scenario where a helmet would be worn it seems advantageous to get comfortable wearing one. You would benefit from things like developing muscle memory, getting comfortable with it's shape, material and weight on your body to possibly avoid unexpected fatigue, knowing your range of motion, how it effects breathing, developing spacial awareness and balance with limitited vision etc. If nothing else, wearing an actual helmet would probably most accurately simulate the contitions of historical armored melee combat.

[@Joe___R]

You should look into getting involved in HMB then you will have to use proper helmets.

[@MisterKisk]

There used to be katana plonkers (and there still are some out there). Lately they've switched into what I call HEMA Plonkers. The point is, don't be a freaking plonker! Weapons are made to kill people, and they did exactly that for many many years. If you're not actually killing people in your fights (and I hope you aren't), you're not really doing "real combat" because none of your weapons are behaving like how the weapons they're based on behaved when encountering a human body. You're doing a facsimile of "real combat". There's nothing wrong with that. But be mindful that it is a facsimile. Basically, too many people are plonkers. Stop being a plonker. Be nuanced, and be well informed.

[@vorrnth8734]

What is a plonker?

[@paulconrad6220]

@@vorrnth8734 I'm guessing someone who just kind of "taps" their opponent. Kendoka are well trained in doing that (for reasons both good and bad.) Sport saber fencers do too, because any contact counts for them

[@MisterKisk]

@@vorrnth8734 It's a foolish person.

[@Nala15-Artist]

It's a decade old lindybeige reference. Basically, a person who thinks that katanas are the be all and end all of all swords, for if you are really talking about swords, you are actually talking about KATANAS, for KATANAS are the best, and they can slice through machine guns and deflect bullets and are also highly potent aphrodisiacs and the ladies are quite fond of them.

[@MisterKisk]

@@Nala15-Artist It's older than Lindybeige.

[@nudl3Zz]

"I have the word evolution, in this context" when you hate a word so much that you have to say your favorite word right after :-D

[@titanscerw]

Lets go clubing!

[@hamontequila1104]

Me turns in subtitles The subtitle: wich is important if your a bully like me

[@highchamp1]

Sports Sports that are close to Combat as possible would be better. Kickboxing (including knees and elbows) Judo (rules) Jiu Jitsu (rules) and so on... I would do these instead (personally) Some are fun and safe like point Karate OR non contact Karate (easy to set up fitness training) But these "Sports" are Pooh Poohed nowadays.

[@gregorysomers203]

First!

[@scholagladiatoria]

Welcome!

[@danielalexander8402]

Quick on the draw. Beautifully done.

[@gregorysomers203]

Love your videos, Matt! Great work!

[@koosh138]

At least the British were taking care of their faces. Whereas the prussians only protected their eyes and nose, and almost dueled to intentionally get scarred. Not everyone is as psycho as they were though.

[@sky4eyes]

so a morden facer get old enough he beome a historical fancer

[@vodkatoxin6914]

Who wants to practice rapier... at the bank 🏦

[@markmarksson6361]

OK, if you can get the law changed to allow it, I'd pay to watch you and another hema-ist fight a contest to the historical rules adopted for contests at the Bear Garden in the early C18th. Several successive weapons, sharps, no protective equipment, anybody stepping back is a coward. Optionally, securing each contestant's leg to the ground in order to prevent such knavery.

[@frankharr9466]

What, this is a club? Doe that mean we get to blackball people? 500 g= 18 oz. 700 g= 25 oz. 350 g= 12 oz. I just got blackballed, didn't I? Drat!

[@darylhatheway5347]

I hate it when we talk about equipment that the regular person can not get!! Turned off video because of this.

[@mikolajwitkowski8093]

This is one of the things that discourages me from the sport side - wearing something that makes you look and feel like an idiot in a cage.