SECRETS OF THE IMPOSSIBLE TUDOR PORTRAIT | Art history documentary | Tudor history documentary

What are the HIDDEN MEANINGS in this impossible Tudor portrait, entitled An Allegory of the Tudor Succession: The Family of Henry VIII? Why does it show four of the five Tudor monarchs (Henry VIII, Edward VI, Mary I and Elizabeth I), plus Mary’s husband, Philip II of Spain, even though in reality the five never met at the same time and their ages and clothing as shown in the picture are mostly incompatible with true history?
In this art history documentary from History Calling I set about decoding the secrets of this impossible picture. Why are the Tudors positioned in this way, with Henry in the centre, even though Elizabeth was on the throne at the time it was painted? Why is the then Queen on his left, at the far side of the picture, arguably the place of least honour? Why is Edward still a young child here, instead of the boy of fifteen he was when he died? Why are none of Henry VIII’s wives present? Who are the classical figures standing to the left and right of the image? What do they represent, what is the significance of the sword Henry VIII is passing to Edward VI and what does the inscription around the picture’s border mean?
I’ll also look at a near copy of the picture. The original was painted in 1572 supposedly by Lucus de Heere and now hangs at Sudeley Castle, having originally been a gift from Elizabeth I to Sir Francis Walsingham. The copy was painted by an anonymous artist in c. 1590 and now hangs on the wall of the Yale Centre for British Art in New Haven, Connecticut. How do they compare to each other and to other famous Tudor portraits including the Family of Henry VIII which is held at Hampton Court Palace? I’ll discuss the vandalism to the copy too and how it has been conserved over the years.
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YOU MIGHT ALSO LIKE:
HIDDEN MESSAGES WITHIN FAMOUS PAINTING OF HENRY VIII AND HIS CHILDREN
• HIDDEN MESSAGES within...
WILL SOMMER - HENRY VIII’S FOOL
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ART HISTORY PLAYLIST
• Art History
TUDOR MONARCHS’ PLAYLIST
• Tudor monarchs
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Thumbnail: An Allegory of the Tudor Succession: The Family of Henry VIII, Yale Centre for British Art, public domain
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[@HistoryCalling]

Which of the two versions of the portrait do you prefer and why? Let me know below and remember you can also find me at: Website (with FREE DOWNLOAD): www.historycallingofficial.com/ Patreon: www.patreon.com/historycalling Amazon storefront: www.amazon.com/shop/historycalling Instagram: instagram.com/historycalling/

[@kathat4235]

I like the 1572 painting, as it is a slightly more "realistic" portrait of Elizabeth I.

[@spicencens7725]

Always so well done! I prefer the original painting, maybe the colors are more vibrant, or it's not as gloomy looking as the 2nd one. Sorry but I have to mention Peace looks, in both paintings, to be pregnant. Maybe because her tunic is hiding her shape...

[@donnicholas7552]

I love art history! I like the second version the best, because it's a lot more colorful.

[@Shane-Flanagan]

@@HistoryCalling The second portrait circa 1590 is better more clearer but I'm so used to seeing it that seeing the original is like a novelty to me

[@S.K.Shirley]

The faces seem more realistic in the original painting, which is probably why I prefer it.

[@steviestarfire]

I’m a nurse and have had a hectic day. What do l get a notification for as I’m walking out of work? A brand spanking new HC video about some of my favorite subject matter. Now my ride home isn’t so long. Thanks HC, you’ve made my evening!

[@GottaBeThere2736]

⚘ THANK YOU for all the service to others that you do. THANK YOU for putting up with 'ego', all the harping, tears and other fear-driven emotions from patients and especially family members. And THANK YOU for taking care of yourself, putting your own needs in the forefront so that you are filled up and smiling .. LOTS. You are appreciated. Blessings from Oklahoma.

[@mandaout2427]

Same! I did a 12 hour day but was so happy to see this video uploaded because I know I have this beautiful voice to tell me a story and help me get my head away from the hospital.

[@steviestarfire]

@@GottaBeThere2736 that’s so sweet, thank you so much!

[@steviestarfire]

@@mandaout2427 agreed! HC’s voice has carried me off to sleep many a time, it’s so soothing.

[@HistoryCalling]

Aww, you're very welcome. I'm so glad to be able to help a little bit and I second the other comment thanking you for all that you do. :-)

[@gingersnap7822]

I 100% agree with your interpretation of the background settings. Elizabeth was an absolute master at imagery and propaganda and adding a Roman vs English juxtaposition is entirely in line with how she markets herself. If that spire *is* one of the tops of the White Tower, I also wonder if that's intentional. Didn't Henry have those added specifically for Ann? I wonder if it's a way Elizabeth could acknowledge her mother without physically putting her in the painting.

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, she was excellent at imagery. I strongly suspect the A pendant she wears in her first ever portrait (also the Family of Henry VIII) is a reference to Anne. I don't know about the spires though.

[@si_vis_amari_ama]

@@HistoryCalling Interesting. Perhaps the artist kept his head (scuse pun) and stopped short of the famous B pendant.

[@L.K.Rydens]

I think you are right about it being the Vatican vs England, especially because the artist has done the Da Vinci thing of using the horizons as messaging. The horizon on the Vatican side towers over Mary and Philip, reinforcing the view of them as small and controlled, and the Vatican powerful and overbearing in comparison. On Elisabeth's side however, the horizon is lower than the top of her head, making her seem bigger and taller, and therefore more powerful 😊🍀✨

[@HistoryCalling]

I really wish I'd thought of those points now and included them. Excellent analysis. Thank you! :-)

[@L.K.Rydens]

​@@HistoryCalling Thank you! 😊🍀✨🥰

[@amazinggrace5692]

Does the copy show the same buildings in the background or make more clear what buildings they were

[@L.K.Rydens]

​@@amazinggrace5692 It has the buildings but they look a bit different, but since it is a copy there is no way of knowing if the copier changed it or not, since they've made other changes as well 😊

[@ficfan3484]

I like the original painting more than the copy. Most people read images like they read words, for english speakers that means they start at the left side of the painting and will continue to the right. The direction of faces and bodies also push the gaze towards the right. I think the reason that Edward is the most plain is because he's designed to give one final push towards Elizabeth. Edward even matches the green curtains behind him. Then Peace and Plenty on the right side are facing towards the left, therefore stopping the viewers from moving past them and directly back to Elizabeth. The colors are actually very well done. Elizabeth is the most contrasting with the background and stands out. The only one who comes close is Henry and even he's given a red coat to blend in with all the red colors of the background. Peace and Plenty are a bit brighter colors, but they still are red with the background. Mary and Phillip are wearing dark colors because the gaze will move past them towards the contrasting Elizabeth. in the first painting, the artist did such an amazing job of making Elizabeth the center of the painting, even when she's not in the center.

[@HistoryCalling]

That's a great added layer of interpretation. Thank you. I wish I'd thought to add all that in. :-)

[@chrisbanks6659]

Funny. I am slap bang in the middle of (re) watching Elizabeth R (1971) and have just finished the Walsingham / Mary episode. You have the uncanny knack of spooking me now and then. 😂 In a good way, of course. Carry on ......

[@HistoryCalling]

Ah, excellent show. An oldie, but a goodie. Speaking of spooking you, I just finished this year's Halloween video earlier today, so perhaps there's a good spooking coming in a couple of months when it's released too! :-)

[@Lionstar16]

So glad to hear this - Glenda Jackson is the standard I judge portrayals of Elizabeth I, she was so good

[@stephencarrillo5905]

Ah yes, I remember that series, Chris. Glenda Jackson was amazing. Carry on indeed. You're a better man than I; I usually get spooked just walking down the street. 😱😆

[@HistoryCalling]

Same here @Lionstar16 though I enjoyed 'Becoming Elizabeth' too and was sorry it didn't get a second season.

[@chrisbanks6659]

@@Lionstar16 She gave it all, didn't she? And is STILL the yardstick for all other portrayals.

[@Natasha-tu5qs]

Fascinating video. I actually think I slightly prefer the original. Whilst I agree that the colours aren't as vibrant (although perhaps they were much more so originally?), I think the overall composition and artistic skill is better. The figures look a bit less wooden and more natural in their poses. The colours blend together better and create a warn glow and ambience. The background architecture also looks slightly better to my eye. Overall, I just feel everything fits together better. Just my opinion to though. 😅 Thanks as always for your wonderful, quality analysis

[@HistoryCalling]

That's a totally fair argument. I def. think this is one of those 'eye of the beholder' situations where everyone will have different opinions and reasons. Of course, that's what makes it so fun :-)

[@paden1865able]

I'm wondering if the colours might be more vibrant if the varnish were to be cleaned up and restored during a few sessions of conservation work. I've seen videos of other historical paintings and wow, the before and after images are astounding.

[@pastalover2757]

Good video! I think I prefer the original painting, because their faces look more realistic, the perspective is slightly better, the sky is less gloomy and most importantly everyone is spaced out a lot more so the painting doesn't look so cluttered

[@HistoryCalling]

All very good, valid points. :-)

[@stephencarrillo5905]

👍I know this will be one of your videos that I'll rewatch more than once, HC. I like reading or studying with your voice in the background; it helps to provide a contemplative space. Walsingham - now there was a complex character. Have you ever considered him as a subject? Thanks for this thorough presentation. You rock! 🙏🏼

[@HistoryCalling]

Oh yes, all the major Tudor figures are on my list. It's just a case of finding time to get to them. Bio videos take a long time to put together. I did recently buy 2 biographies of Thomas More though...

[@stephencarrillo5905]

@@HistoryCalling Now that I would gladly wait for as your presentations are always excellent. 👍

[@chrisbanks6659]

@@stephencarrillo5905 And Robert Dudley. And William Cecil. And Anthony Babbington. And Uncle Tom Cobbley and all.

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, there are so many to get to. Someone said to me recently that they thought I'd exhausted the Tudors, but I thought 'I'm not even close!'

[@perniciouspete4986]

​​@@HistoryCalling Please deal with Master More and his treatment of Richard III gently, now. Remember, he was a saint.

[@seaottar25]

Personally I prefer the first painting. Although the colours are more vibrant in the second painting, it feels like the first artist had a better grasp of perspective and scale. The second artist made everyone look a little squashed flat, it feels like the royals are waiting in queue. For the colours, I think which painting people would prefer would probably depend on if they like warmer or cooler tones. The first painting is a lot warmer than the second, personally I prefer cooler colours so my ideal painting would be a combo of every feature from the first with colours that are more similar to the second.

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, your point about warm vs cool is a very good one. I'm sure that does affect a lot of people's opinions (my own included).

[@Raven6794]

The painter of the second image has taken KZbin rules into account. Another very interesting video. The copy is more vibrant so I prefer that one.

[@HistoryCalling]

Exactly! They were way ahead of their time and saved me the trouble of having to add a modesty patch in Canva :-)

[@Peter-55]

Hi HC, great video. I’m with you, I prefer the copy mainly because of the more vibrant colours and detail.

[@HistoryCalling]

Thanks Peter. Yes, although of course I still appreciate the original too, but I do find the younger one more eye catching. Perhaps it would be different if I saw the earlier one in person (I have seen the later one in person and loved it).

[@alioncosmic]

I love videos about Tudor art! I think I'd have to say I'd like the younger version more, I think the details are more defined and easier for me to see. I do prefer Elizabeth's 1570s dress in the elder picture, though.

[@HistoryCalling]

Ah, now that's interesting. I've had a lot of other people prefer the later dress so it's nice and refreshing to have a different opinion. Thank you :-)

[@096Nat]

Painting analysis! Yes! For my part, given the context of composition of the second painting I cannot help but interpret the possible presence of Will Sommers next to Philip as a way to take a dig at him. His Spanish Armada may have been great but it is true that the whole affair was foolishly botched by Parma and Medina Sidonia, Philip's men

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, I definitely don't think that whoever that man is, his presence is meant to be good for the 'Spanish side' of the painting. I'd love to know for sure though who he is/was.

[@jbu6429]

I like the first painting for myriad reasons, but primarily beause Pleanty is absolutely rocking that Mohawk!

[@HistoryCalling]

Haha! Well that's a fair enough reason to me as well.

[@eldelflowerwater]

I have a soft spot for the cooy because I saw it in the flesh as well.as the solo paintimg of Henry VIII. But nothing made an impression like The Ambassadors by Hans Holbein The Young that trip. Thanks again for another brilliant podcast 🎉

[@FandersonUfo]

ty HC - the most important Tudor painting - very glad the Welsh wound up with it

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, it's stunning. I've always had a soft spot for it.

[@FandersonUfo]

@@HistoryCalling - indeed - I knew I'd seen a version with Jane too - great video HC

[@HistoryCalling]

You're welcome :-)

[@happycommuter3523]

I worked for many years in an office with an art historian, and videos like these make me feel like I’m back with her. Thanks for this terrific tutorial!

[@HistoryCalling]

You're very welcome. Glad I could give you a nice trip down memory lane :-)

[@SurferJoe1]

I wonder what we can learn from this painting about Elizabeth's real feelings towards her father, who didn't treat her well, and what a similar political statement by Mary might have looked like. If the ghost of Mary had commissioned a rebuttal, what might it have shown?

[@HistoryCalling]

I'm not sure exactly, but you can bet Catherine of Aragon would have been in there and probably no Elizabeth.

[@perniciouspete4986]

​@@HistoryCalling Knowing what I know about Mary, I suspect her version of the portrait would have in the far background a side view of the Tower showing Anne's head being chopped off.

[@EarlyMusicDiva]

I think Mary's version might have shown her giving alms to a poor person. Mary was known for her generosity to the poor of the realm.

[@adriannespring8598]

The hilarious irony being that by the sound of it Edward would've been a bloody tyrant to make Mary look like a benevolent saint in comparison. 😂

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, I think that's true. He was shaping up to be a very nasty piece of work I think.

[@vernon2542]

Good evening HC, very interesting video. I like the second one better mainly for the reasons you do. I also think that the added figure is Will Sommer. I may have to go to Yale to see the painting. Looking forward to the next one. Thanks

[@HistoryCalling]

Oh yes, it's worth a visit to see the real thing. I was there back in 2017 and it was totally worth the 30 minute walk in the blistering sun to get there that I had to do from my guest house.

[@lfgifu296]

Hi! I’m a tad late lol but great video! Yk I love myself some Art History :) The painting itself is a proper propaganda piece for Elizabeth, though as someone who doesn’t like her much, it’s not one I appreciate that much, but your explanation of the meanings was rly good!! I also agree w the artist’s choice not to include any wives, w Elizabeth in power, to include anyone but Anne would’ve been pointless (and dangerous too, probably😭), but to include Anne was tactless. Have a nice week:))

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, she was very good with the old propaganda. Yes, it's telling that the only place Elizabeth had Anne appear with her was in a little ring, where no one else could see the double portrait.

[@kiernan415]

Another amazing video HC!! Thank you so much for the years of education and entertainment you have provided so far! Oddly enough, a friend (my museum buddy) and I discussed the symbology of these portraits in depth about a decade ago and we came to very similar conclusions as yourself regarding the background on each side. The left side is likely Rome due to the most obvious clue of the big dome, but I think the imagery is deeper than that. This might be a stretch, but Rome's infamous seven hills, along with it's wall seem to be represented as well. The basic building in the forefront seems to be the southern tip of the Servian wall (based on the odd shape), while the all the protruding chimneys, towers, building tops and dome seem to represent the seven hills themselves. If you look at the topical map in wikipedia on the Seven Hills of Rome, you can also see that the the upwardly protruding features correlate well with the size and importance placed on each hill at that point in time. I'm not saying we're right, but it is what we came up with. The right side seems more straight forward with Westminster and it's courtyard in the forefront, either the Tower or possibly St. Margaret's to show religious tolerance (it was rebuilt by her grandfather Henry VII so ??) and then possibly Windsor in the background? I know that doesn't make much sense geographically, but Windsor Castle would have been powerful quintessential English imagery back then, especially for a Royal. Anyways, that's my best guess. As always, look forward to whatever you have in store for us next!!! 💜👑

[@HistoryCalling]

Thanks Kiernan. That was very interesting to read and I like the St Margaret's idea. Wish I'd thought of that! :-)

[@revgurley]

I always learn so much from your videos. Please keep it up! I know it's your passion, and you're sharing your research with us. Thank you!

[@HistoryCalling]

Thank you so much! Will do :-)

[@DarthDread-oh2ne]

Fun fact 2: Sophia Alekseyevna was the half sister of Peter the great. She wanted to keep the throne within her side of the family. She was also a great admirer of Elizabeth I.

[@HistoryCalling]

Ah well, Elizabeth was pretty great. Can't blame Sophia for admiring her.

[@benjamintillema3572]

I think I like the softer colors of the original 14:00 and the contrast between the red and green on the wall.

[@tessat338]

The painter of the original is a better artist.

[@HistoryCalling]

Hmm, I dunno. I like them both, but I suppose the second only had to copy and tweak, which is an easier job.

[@killercharm]

Totally prefer the copy. The colors are dazzling and the figures are cleaner. I've always appreciated a good cover.

[@HistoryCalling]

Haha, well that's fair enough. Some covers do outdo the originals :-) I prefer the second Thomas Crown Affair film for eg.

[@jackmason5278]

My preference is the copy. The colours are more vibrant, the faces seem more realistic, and the goddess of plenty didn't need to be covered up.

[@HistoryCalling]

Haha, yes, remembering to go put that modesty patch on was a bit annoying for me too. :-)

[@od1452]

I think I prefer the later .. It does remind me of the so called "Breeks " painters covering nudity in old paintings. Its odd in a way ... we can see death and destruction but human nudity must be censored.

[@HistoryCalling]

I know. It's stupid (although I suppose there are limits on violence on YT too if you don't want to impact your monetisation).

[@helenastanser9801]

I like them both but if you look at the painting from 1570 it is very yellow. Maybe the were more similar when the later was painted!

[@HistoryCalling]

Perhaps, yes. We do always have to take into account how age might have affected unrestored paint and its colour.

[@perniciouspete4986]

Perhaps the canvas needs cleaning.

[@missfriscowin3606]

Reminds me of the Megan picture with the Royal Family fake 😢

[@HistoryCalling]

But the pictures of her with the other royals during the first 18 months of her marriage are real???

[@leticiagarcia9025]

I’m weak when it comes to art history. I really appreciated this lesson. Now I understand the meaning of this portrait. I like this version best. Have you seen My Lady Jane on Prime? It’s meant to be satirical then real history. It had great reviews. I thought I wasn’t going to like it, but I did. The narrator was so funny. Thank you for the history lesson. 🖖

[@HistoryCalling]

I've just started watching it and really must get back to it. It seemed quite funny. If it's done in the vein of The Great, then I think I'll like it.

[@user-kk3xf2dl2f]

Could the man seen in the copy represent Fitzroy, a path the throne never took?

[@HistoryCalling]

Personally I would doubt it, just because I don't think Elizabeth would have appreciated any reference which might have drawn attention to her own illegitimacy and I think including her illegitimate brother would have done that.

[@edithengel2284]

If Fitzroy's little miniature is anything to go by, the face in this painting doesn't look much like him to me.

[@csh43166]

Very interesting!! I prefer the copy, for the reasons you stated. I don't know much about art and I really enjoyed this video - thank you!!

[@HistoryCalling]

You're welcome. I'm not an art historian myself, so researching portraits is always fun and different for me.

[@ALA9E]

I like the older one, it is more proportional and the painter style is nicer, I also like the more muted colours

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, it's def. a personal choice. Others have said the same thing about the layout and the colour palette.

[@rochelleoconnor6676]

I always love your content, thank you for taking the time to create and share these videos 🎉

[@HistoryCalling]

You're very welcome. Thank you for taking the time out to watch them and comment :-)

[@lh384]

I wonder if the small portrait in the copy of the original painting is Henry Fitzroy, Henry VIII's only acknowledged bastard. There was some talk at one point of legitimizing him and making him heir, before he died so young.

[@HistoryCalling]

Personally I would doubt it, just because I don't think Elizabeth would have appreciated any reference which might have drawn attention to her own illegitimacy and I think including her illegitimate brother would have done that. You never know though.

[@edithengel2284]

I'm not sure how old the first painting is, but the second painting is dated c. 1590. By that time I should think that Fitzroy would possibly have been largely forgotten, and as HC says above, Elizabeth probably would not have wanted to revive the memory of her father's chaotic love/marital life. Furthermore, the face in the second painting appears to me to be too mature to be Fitzroy, who died in 1536 at age 17, only a couple of months after Elizabeth's mother was executed. Apart from anything else, Elizabeth was just under three when Fitzroy died, and perhaps never met him, or saw him only rarely.

[@GottaBeThere2736]

Will Sommers saw it all, even to the bitter end of HVIII, so his overlooking this fantasy gathering seems appropriate to me - even reminding the viewer of the irony that Phillip of Spain is the loser of his desiring to be King of England AND Spain's great losses in the Spanish Armada attack on England in 1588. I had no idea this even existed. 😊 I very much prefer this painting and want to see it in person.

[@HistoryCalling]

I wish I knew for certain if it's him though. It's just a guess on my part and some others here in the comments have made some very intriguing alternate suggestions. :-)

[@GottaBeThere2736]

@@HistoryCalling Oooh. Will read the comments! 😎

[@badbiker666]

I frequently disagree with the analysis of old paintings because I believe the reviewer puts too much of their own ideas into their inspections. In this case, however, I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said about these images. I thought your interpretation of the artists intent was right on the money; reasonable and logical, especially considering your expertise on the subject matter. However, I am no art historian nor am I an artist. I'm just a fat old man, sitting in an overstuffed chair, espousing thoughts on that which I am unworthy to judge. So, don't listen to me.

[@HistoryCalling]

Thank you very much. I read up on the paintings of course, so I'm frequently leaning on the expertise of others here as well.

[@judylapointe3507]

Thank you, I really enjoyed this video.

[@HistoryCalling]

You're very welcome. Glad you liked my take on the paintings :-)

[@beastieber5028]

Good evening to history calling from Bea 🇬🇧

[@HistoryCalling]

Hi Bea. Hope you're ready to dig into a beautiful Tudor painting today :-)

[@oonaghmarguerite6752]

Oh dear... Those mannequins with the back lighting give me some Heebie Geebies....! 😵‍💫

[@annebutler5169]

Thank you loved the video. I prefer the 1590 copy. The colours are nicer. I think the original is very bright and I don't like the brownish colour tones. Elizabeth's dress is beautiful in the 1590 copy. ❤

[@Anita-rq9ev]

Very well presented, your voice is beautiful 😊. I love everything about the Tudors, so this was a treat. Thank you dear HC 🙏

[@HistoryCalling]

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE VERY KIND DONATION ANITA and the lovely message. I'm glad you enjoyed my take on the painting. :-)

[@a.b.creator]

The puncture marks in Edward's portrait, we're probably to spy through.

[@Shelly-mz9yf]

Fabulous this piece of history, with quite striking art, and verbal knowledge, I thank you so much 😀

[@annhenriques3520]

I don’t think including any of Henry’s wives was ever considered. This was deliberately designed to include actual rulers. There were two goals here: to portray Henry VIII and his children as a dynasty and glorify Elizabeth, especially as a vast improvement over Mary’s reign.

[@Lucius1958]

I wonder whether the figure of Mars might also be symbolic of how the Tudor dynasty began, with Henry VII winning the crown by force of arms...?

[@Judykag]

I’m curious. Do you think that Jane was truly and deeply loved by Henry? Or do you think it was just all about the legitimate son thing.

[@J70a.m-zg6gi_wha0]

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 *really* ? a 'modesty' patch? what century is this anyway? crud. how prudish. Victorians 1 The Modern world 0 whats next fig leaves re applied to all the statues??

[@daedubois9428]

I low-key hate Philip II. UGH.

[@HistoryCalling]

Elizabeth probably felt the same way ;-)

[@robinpinkham9398]

The copy is my favorite simply because I prefer Elizabeth's dress. Looks much more majestic and she is my heroine ❤

[@stephendavies6949]

Fascinating subject matter and very well presented. The subtexts have shades of The Last Supper painting. Elizabeth I knew a thing or two about propaganda and self-publicity. Sorry, but I prefer the original, mainly due to in the 2nd, Elizabeth looks like she's grown wings & the carpet no longer has that deep red/crimson colour. Also, the copier would not have known all the sublte and hudden meanings in the original, and therefore risks losing some of that meaning.

[@faeriefruitcake]

I have read the glove is symbolic of the glove worn at the coronation and represents a marriage-like commitment to the kingdom. Very much Elizabeth’s thing.

[@MissBee13]

Catherine Parr might also have reminded Elizabeth of her treatment by Edward Seymour.

[@Dlt814]

I feel like Henry VII may also have been left out (in addition to what you mentioned, Edward, Mary and Elizabeth's reigns were all by right from their father) because his right to the throne was also somewhat controversial. Much like the wives being left out, the painter didn't want to bring it up. My favorite painting is the latter. Mostly because Elizabeth's dress is incredible. Also because it's on this side of the pond and only a few hours from where I live. 😁 Wonderful video, as always.

[@kartos.]

In Elizabeth's shoes, I would use my mother's visage for the figure beside her (Peace), and pretend it was just a coincidence if anyone noticed.

[@valkyriesardo278]

Disagree. Elizabeth had little cause to resent Jane Seymour. Elizabeth was barely three when her mother died. What few memories she had, faded with age. Elizabeth gave every evidence of being a pragmatist and a survivor. She grew up courting Henry's favor. Seymour and Boleyn entered Henry's life via the same route. If there is blame in that, it must be equally assigned. Boleyn exerted herself pushing step-daughter Mary into disfavor. From what I've heard of Seymour, she interceded with Henry on behalf of both his daughters. Elizabeth had more cause for gratitude than resentment for Seymour. Elizabeth understood that a male heir would hold precedence and she understood the reasons why. Elizabeth did not succeed by harboring idiot delusions about her world and the people in her life. Some say she kept a miniature portrait of her mother in fond remembrance. I think she kept it more as a cautionary tale. Boleyn climbed high and fell hard.

[@loewenalia]

Love your videos. Can you start working your family through the Medici family. I started reading about Catherine De Medici and am just blown away by her. I think that family is alot but it could be fun!

[@skate2ice]

Seriously, you should write books. I'd read them! I can just hear you read your audiobook! :)

[@Bus_Driver_Jay]

Randomly I can comment again (I think) Amazing video as always, Dr. Ms History. I do like these paintings. There's always something weirdly magical about these. I like to think of them as time paintings, as they freeze various people at different times. I can't tell what of my comments have done and which haven't, so forgive me if I've already said and had it seen, but the scan was done and is on my account if you still wanted to nose. No gender yet, but we know their name of they're a girl.

[@wensdyy6466]

could we get a history on cesarean section (I just read an article about Beatrice of Bourbon from France who was a wife of Jan Lucemburský (John of Bohemia) who survived cesarean section in 1337 and it is a first recorded case of both mother and child survying)

[@milyoti01]

I prefer the 1590 version. I also noticed that the English scene outside the window on the right hand side was better defined. At least that is what I can see. Thank you for your informative videos. I always enjoy them very much.

[@serenity6415]

This is a great style for history stories. I love it. How you narrate really engages me, which can be difficult. It's so natural-sounding. As for the paintings, when is the copy so much better than the original? So much more intricate. I wish we could see tbe original without the brown haze

[@hellothere7948]

I think I like the original a little bit more because of the lighting. Also, I like how we have a new image of Elizabeth rather than her famous portrait we see in the second painting and how Edward is positioned in this painting. However, both are beautifully done.

[@DarthDread-oh2ne]

One more thing, if Henry v had lived longer, do you think england could have hold on to France or would France eventually break away ?

[@HistoryCalling]

I'm sure it would have eventually split but I think he could have held it together longer.

[@lindyashford7744]

I prefer the original somehow the proportions and details are better thought out and more harmonious, even though it is not so sumptuous in the textiles and the use of colour. The first has some charm to it the second looks more self promoting. It also gives a sense of being something of a family remembrance while the copy looks like a political statement. Interesting video. I am a direct beneficiary of the small boy who briefly became king, having been a scholarship kid at the school he founded. He was of course the heir that Henry was so desperate for, who only lasted a few short years. Little did Henry know it was his daughter who would remain in the hearts of the nation as an example of English steadfastness, and thereafter it has always been our queens who have been such long lived and notable monarchs. If he had known that maybe he would have been a much better tempered king.

[@namaschu2126]

Especially your tudor content is always so interesting. A perfect history lesson👑

[@kathrynparker9790]

Can you also explain the recent royal portraits to me because ...

[@silva7493]

I agree, the copy of the first painting is much better than the original. You don't see that happening very often.

[@amgymrat4546]

Not the best at commenting but wanted to say I love your videos and been here since you’re channel was wee small! ❤

[@Nixijokenzi]

I prefer the original. I like the warmer colours. It seems to be more expressive also.

[@pbohearn]

What I like about the copy is that the entire group has been “moved closer to the camera,” so that they are larger, and their faces are more detailed.

[@missyme2673]

Wow. I absolutely love this video from you, HC! Thank you for your invaluable interpretation of the subtle symbolisms throughout both paintings. Upon first glance at the beginning of your video, I thought it was the famous painting of Henry the eighth, along with his three children and I think Jane Seymour (off the top of my head but I could well be wrong!) This is painting that I refer to hangs in the famous haunted gallery at Hampton Court Palace. These two paintings bare a striking resemblance to that one and it makes me wonder why all three even exist, when as you so rightly pointed out, that none of people in the paintings were actually alive at the same time -apart from his children. I love the propaganda that Henry is trying to portray by having that particular painting commissioned ( I'm guessing), but I wasn't aware of the existence of these two strikingly similar portraits. It's funny how every time I look at such paintings, I always spot something new to me and wonder why the artist included it in the painting in the first place.. I could look at these paintings all day! I'd say the first one is my favourite, I like the fact that Henry is passing the sword to Edward, and I agree with you about the Catholic and protestant symbolism in the background. They are all such an important part of our history, and I'm just grateful that they were not destroyed by Cromwell and his buddies! Thank you so much for this gem, HC, I absolutely love it! 😊

[@HistoryCalling]

I actually already have a video on the portrait that includes Jane Seymour, so I think you'd really enjoy that if you haven't seen it yet. I'm so grateful Cromwell didn't ruin these as well, though I'm sure he just wanted to sell them and get the money for them.

[@missyme2673]

​@@HistoryCalling I'm going to go watch your video on the other painting, and I'd be interested in seeing any similarities with these two.. 🤔

[@HistoryCalling]

Enjoy! :-)

[@littlewink7941]

You don't need to censor pictures regardless of it being You Tube

[@silvertbird1]

A Tudor two-for, who could ask for more? Very enjoyable, having the symbolism explained. I believe the first painting is technically superior, but I also tend toward the second.

[@HistoryCalling]

Thank you. Glad you liked it. Yes, I don't usually do a 2 for 1, but this one's special :-)

[@tonyk1584]

Interesting thanks

[@HistoryCalling]

Thanks for watching :-)

[@simon112]

I prefer the later portrait HC, the colours are certainly more vibrant, also it seems less is more in the later portrait, thank you as always HC. ☺️

[@HistoryCalling]

Thanks Simon. Same here, though perhaps I'd change my mind if I saw the original in person. I saw the copy in New Haven a few years ago and have been very taken with it ever since then.

[@simon112]

@@HistoryCalling Thanks HC, I agree if you saw the original you would get a better perspective. ☺️

[@EmilyGloeggler7984]

Oh that Henry… so much grief and misery could have been avoided, had he just waited and married Anne at a later time. Although, perhaps even if he had the self control and had been mature and responsible to be chaste (he never was, clearly), and had married Anne Boleyn or Jane Seymour, perhaps he still could have killed her - just for not giving him a son. Ironically, it struck me recently - can you imagine if he had been able to and married Diana? He would have been overjoyed that she had conceived and bore his heir and spare, and probably treated her with greater respect than her actual husband Charles did. That says a lot. It doesn’t excuse Henry for his wicked behavior, but it is quite sobering to contemplate. In the end, Henry’s line of legitimate children died out - as for his illegitimate children… well unless he DID father children with other mistresses including with Mary Boleyn, and they mistakenly were misattributed to those women’s husbands, then that line probably also died out - unless DNA evidence comes forward proving the link.

[@edithengel2284]

He really couldn't have married Anne much later, as she moved later into her thirties, and had any certain expectation of a child.

[@gcrawford222]

It's the first Photoshopped portrait in history!! 😹

[@dianallewellyn9859]

Thank you for an interesting blog 😊

[@porknbeans1977]

I prefer the copy, simply for that glorious dress Elizabeth's in. A 16th century power suit! Love the video!

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, I love that dress too. Don't like to think about how long it must have taken to get on though!

[@Serai3]

There is one more difference in the newer version: Philip is smiling.

[@revgurley]

(As I put on my tinfoil hat) I see the "new" St Pauls behind Elizabeth, which if I remember my history correctly, wasn't even the "old" St Pauls when the painting was done. A bit of psychic painting? Time travel? (I'm mostly kidding, but the building does look a lot like the dome of St Pauls to me)

[@HistoryCalling]

I know what you mean, but you're correct that the current dome wasn't there yet during this period. Maybe inspired by Rome as well though?

[@kaltesekwa]

Is it just me or does Peace look pregnant?

[@eldelflowerwater]

Another excellent podcast! Any chance we could have a podcast on Wallsingham himself? Thank you🎉

[@HistoryCalling]

All those great Tudor figures are on my list. It's just tricky to get biography videos done, especially on people who lived a long life. They take AGES to put together.

[@redemptivepete]

I always smile at the potential ructions in Westminster Abbey when the lights go out and the patrons leave! Mary Tudor buried below Elizabeth and Mary Queen of Scots next door! Rest in Peace? Probably not! Same at Fontrevault in France with Henry 2nd, Eleanor and Richard alltogether!

[@HistoryCalling]

I know. Mary Tudor would just HATE how things have played out.

[@Shane-Flanagan]

Thank you HC. Fascinating video topic. I'm so used to seeing the circa 1590 portrait.

[@HistoryCalling]

You're welcome. :-)

[@topherv4229]

I don't see this painting as depicting "Good vs Evil"as much as a simple progression from the staunch Catholicism of Mary and Philip, to Henry, Catholic converted to Protestant and then Edward and Elizabeth. As it is called an allegory, this may be the story.....

[@HistoryCalling]

That's why I love paintings like this, as they're open to lots of different interpretations. :-)

[@morriganwitch]

I prefer the original the Goddesses look more Goddessy so to speak , tho Elizabeth ‘s dress is better in the copy

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, I see what you mean. Although I didn't have to cover up a goddess boob in the second one, so that was handier for me ;-)

[@morriganwitch]

@@HistoryCalling I thought you didn’t have to if it was a depiction mind you YT has a mind of its own I suppose xxx

[@HistoryCalling]

I'm never completely sure, so I just think 'better safe than sorry' and cover it anyway.

[@morriganwitch]

@@HistoryCalling oh I agree it can be really random ,

[@littlemiss_76]

The copy is quite good. They used the typical Elizabeth look. I'm not sure which I prefer as both show history.

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, it can be a hard choice. They are both beautiful.

[@helenvick522]

Thank you for your knowledgeable insights into the paintings. Great video.

[@HistoryCalling]

My pleasure. Glad you enjoyed it :-)

[@michaelogden5958]

Isn't that interesting. Maybe one of the first anachronistic mash-ups? Like those creepy music videos depicting some (more-or-less) famous deceased singer doing a duet with a present-day wannabe? Cheers!

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, that's a good comparison. the Whitehall Mural did it too, with Henry VII and Elizabeth of York, so perhaps that was the inspiration?

[@greybeardcanadian1036]

I agree with you, the second version is the more vibrant, though the classical figures look more classical in the original. Might the figure in the oval be someone connected the war with Spain? The person is, after all, positioned behind Mary, Philip, and Mars.

[@HistoryCalling]

Good idea! Maybe he is. I didn't think of that.

[@lyndanickerson1373]

Thank you for the video

[@HistoryCalling]

You're welcome. Thanks for watching and commenting :-)

[@AmynAL]

Such an interesting video! Elizabeth sure covered all her bases didn’t she? She made herself very clear. The picture speaks volumes! Have a great week ☺️

[@HistoryCalling]

Thanks Amy. Yes, she had a great eye for imagery, esp. her own.

[@Bus_Driver_Jay]

There's a word in my comments that seem to keep pinging up and getting it deleted by KZbin.. I've commented on this around four times now. Amazing video as always! I like both paintings. Nice snapshot of the family together at the height of their strength, so to speak.

[@HistoryCalling]

KZbin just does that sometimes (Instagram too in fact). I've no idea why, but it's really annoying. I can see two comments at least. Congratulations on the scan. I'm glad everything's going well. :-)

[@perniciouspete4986]

The verbal part of this presentation was excellent, as always, but the camera work was outstanding. Even I noticed.

[@HistoryCalling]

Thank you very much. It was a little tricky getting it to pan over the images in the way I wanted and switching between pictures, so I appreciate you noticing.

[@pbohearn]

Major correction, and you should know this: Queen Mary was not Spanish! She was an English queen and as English as her siblings. She was born in England and she died in England and never left England. her mother was a Spanish princess who moved to England when she was a girl and remained there for the rest of her life as the queen of England and well loved by the people. So Mary was the daughter of an English King and a Spanish princess turned English queen for 25 years. Please don’t talk about her as a foreigner; she was welcomed into the city of London when her brother died and there was a failed attempt at a coup. The people regarded her as the legitimate heir to the throne, and were joyous in her coronation. The public relations error that she made was to marry her husband, a Spaniard, but she took great pains legally, to exclude him from ever having any kind of influence or power as a king in England. Their dominions over their territories remained separate. But it was something that didn’t look good in a public relations way, plus she was getting increasingly and fervently Catholic and started the burnings, and there was much concern about a Catholic king as well.

[@edithengel2284]

HC did not say Mary was Spanish; she said that Mary was half-Spanish and married to a Spaniard.