Hitachi’s battery Class 802, General Election 2024 & Virgin Trains comeback? | Ep 34

[@user-oc7jh3hw6e]

Quiz: Blue lights are used as TPWS (Train Protection & Warning System) status indicators to mark the start of radio token sections (RETB) on single lines. A steady blue light shows TPWS is activated and a flashing blue light shows it is deactivated (when a token has been issued to the driver). Blue flashing lights can also be seen on railways when police cars get stuck on level crossings. Great podcast

[@blairleipst4508]

😂😂😂 did the police liveried Class 37 have a flashing blue light

[@user-oc7jh3hw6e]

@@blairleipst4508 Good one! 🤣

[@BenRattigan]

Great video, nice to see Hitachi highlighted. Some of my sons friends went on those apprenticeships and that place (like Nissan)has been great at helping keep young people in the area as far too often they get the skills and training and go off elsewhere.

[@GreenSignals]

Cheers Ben.

[@GreatEastonRailway]

Given that the Stadler Flirt are (in my opinion and that of many others) the best trains in the country, I’m so glad they aren’t being excluded

[@tonysimons2860]

Thank you for delivering such interesting and wide-ranging subject material.

[@MercenaryPen]

on the subject of Open Access operation on the ECML, I do wonder whether consideration should be given to running joined up services... for example, with First operating both Hull Trains and Lumo, could a 5-car unit for each be coupled together between Kings Cross and Doncaster? Similarly with Grand Central, could trains for Sunderland and Bradford be coupled together (also as far as Doncaster)?

[@fetchstixRHD]

Wasn't there a time where Hull Trains and Grand Central used to run joined up with 180s too, or am I hallucinating?

[@jrail1992]

I believe blue lights are used to identify the limits of the electrical isolations within the Engineering Supervisor’s worksite during the hours of daylight and darkness. The battery inovation is interesting but I hope it's not a substitute for putting wires up where they're needed. Thanks as per for an informative & engaging show. 👍

[@gingertom2355]

Once again a really informative piece well worth an hour of my life! Re the two discussions relating to the use of battery traction it's a logical step in the railway evolution but I do find it puzzling when (SW) makes the case for hauling them around the main line is because it provides the operator with a diversified traction option as a benefit in the event the main traction supply is disrupted (agreed), yet states there's also benefit from removing diversity of traction options at depots where the same could be just as useful, particularly if a unit has a battery supply fault necessitation attention on the depot. The latter of course must assume all stock using the depot have similar battery traction capability. The Hitachi person also stated their project potentially opens the door to discontinuous Overhead electrification - which in isolation (pun intended) it could well do and is bound to be seized on by funders. But the railway, particularly TPE's network is made up of many operators. Would those same discontinuous OLE sections be compatible with other operators of different future rolling stock types? Or might it in future create yet another hurdle to achieve a business for new EMU rolling stock case for users who need a different route profile to the discontinuous OLE configuration for BEMU's and a perverse risk of making future EMU's (not BEMU's) unattractive because of the need to 'fill in' OLE gaps? Fragmentation of the industry structure has been its achilles heel for too long. Now parts of the industry seems hell bent on pushing the fragmentation of fixed infrastructure. Both guests were really interesting though and so were the questions put to them. I look forward to hearing more in future. PS: I'll go with TPWS Indicators at Stop Boards on single line with passing loops as the answer to Blue lights on an 'operational' railway.

[@GreenSignals]

Cheers and some great points. The compatibility one is really important. As to the quiz, tune in next week to find out....!

[@driverskid]

I can think of two blue light applications: RETB section marker boards and, though not yet activated, I understand the Metropolitan Line new signals that apply only to Chiltern services will show a blue aspect to Met trains.

[@ipcress1066]

I’m not sure where you’ll find blue lights on the operational railway today but just as a bit of nerd fodder I’ve a bit of interest in old railway lamps and as I’m sure you know oil marker lamps were required on the front of steam locomotives to identify the class or type of the train, the differing classes being denoted by the position of the lamps. Well there were so many services entering Liverpool Street station in London that wasn’t enough permutations of headlamp positions to deal with it so the steam loco headlamps were modified to have an additional flip-over purple/blue filter glass so the headlamp could show a blue light as well as the usual white light to increase the number of permutations of head code. This of course ended in the 1960’s with the removal of steam traction but thought you might find it interesting anyway. Regards Paul

[@Jammers007]

Blue lights are used on Police Class 37 to indicate to speeding HSTs that they need to pull over 😜

[@marktownend8065]

Great interview with Steve Knight, and good news on the SE Metro fleet. I hope they go for new construction with level boarding and batteries. LB and moving gap filler steps at every door also work to cut boarding times, very important on a high-performance metro style operation, and reduce minor trip incidents, step climbing and luggage difficulties that don't necessarily cause injury but can trigger delay nonetheless. While platforms may vary in height marginally, establishing a consistent 3ft is more practical than raising everything to around 1.1m to match traditional floor height. Gap fillers can cope with fairly large horizontal gaps on tight curves such as those at Lewisham. Batteries onboard also help with avoiding gapping and could allow much of the complexity in junction design to be eliminated if everything in a particular area was equipped.

[@Carlos-im3hn]

Fantastic highest quality show gentlemen. Learning here...about many things rail and Open-Access. Also, I'm an American g"EE"k (BSEE '86, MSEE '93) and so want to learn more about how these new inter-city 'large' major partially battery-electric EMU powered trains operate. 80km battery powered, wow! The periodic maintenance and emergency maintenance and costs must be intricate and in the mix. Battery disposal will also be part of the plans. The UK baseload power infrastructure will probably also require the new/future GenIII+ and GenIV nuclear reactor plants as well. Now I know what I will be googling this Memorial Day weekend ! I've started my _battery-electric powered_ journey. Thank you.

[@GreenSignals]

Thank you Carlos! Really appreciate the great feedback. You make some great points which we will cover on a future show for sure.

[@bryanduncan6178]

Fun fact.... GWR were leading the battery 802 project and a class 802/0 was due to be fitted first - then the cracks came along! There are some big wins for Hitachi, as the MTU engines are proving very expensive to run and maintain!

[@paulrobinson8695]

I think the battery electric would be ideal for the midland main line electrification ,because of the low bridges approaching Leicester and Nottingham stations.

[@Sam-uo8ki]

I read that clearance at Leicester is sufficient for electrification

[@andrewseddon7989]

Yet again gents another very special and uplifting podcast Please keep it up !!!

[@GreenSignals]

You're most welcome and we will do our best!

[@jeanpalmer141]

I may have missed something but fitting batteries to an 80x where the batteries replace one diesel engine, still makes a heavier unit than a purely electric 80x. The better logic would be to replace two diesel engines with battery units leaving only one diesel unit per five cars for emergencies. Hitachi were claiming 100km for the battery unit so two battery units would do 200km, surely that would be enough for far more situations of limited OLE coverage? John

[@watcherzero5256]

Yes your not lightening the train compared to diesel so your not reducing track wear and your still propelling a heavier vehicle which costs more energy. On the second part of your point no you don't get any more range replacing two diesel power packs rather than one in a set because the diesel powerpack has a longer range anyway, your replacing a powerpack with about 1500 mile range with one with a 100km range. E.g. Say you have three powerpacks in a 5 car set; 2 diesel and 1 battery then the diesels can both output for 1500 miles while the battery outputs for 100km, then you have 1 diesel and 2 battery the diesel still outputs for 1500 miles while the battery's still both output for 100km. You could go further on battery power than with one, but only if you used them sequentially with the train at 2/3rds power (50% diesel, 50% battery).

[@marktownend8065]

There are or were special train ready to start plungers in the carriage sidings at Dartford, Kent, put in at the last resignalling in 2001. These were acquired from London Underground, where they were used widely, and had a push switch at the top of a flexible sprung section a couple of inches in diameter and about 2ft long mounted on a fixed pole. A black rubber sleeve covered the spring and switch and protected the wiring inside. There was a little rubber dome at the top over the switch. The device had a nickname which I definitely won't share here! Their purpose was to trigger the automatic route setting system for a move into the station so they were positioned to be reachable by the driver through the side window. While the LU ones didn't have this feature, the mainline application included a blue industrial beacon indicator to confirm the request had been received by the interlocking, as the route wouldn't always set immediately, waiting for booked departure time and other movements to clear.

[@tantive4]

I've seen blue lights used to indicate location of refuges in tunnels and have heard of them being used to indicate exclusion zones around excavators.

[@GreenSignals]

Cheers!

[@MitchelMor]

Quiz: Blue signals are used on London Underground at the boundaries of the CBTC/TBTC signalling systems. They are a proceed signal for trains in ATO or Protected Manual modes only

[@kimrennie5294]

Beat me to it!

[@DavidMartin-ym2te]

Lithium Ion batteries? Really? With all the controversy surrounding fires etc?

[@GreenJimll]

Aw, thanks Nigel!

[@angusswanson5984]

I think I have seen blue light on west highland line stop boards. RETB signalling. Not sure what they signify though, points set right or point / train protection working in my guess.

[@GreenSignals]

Thanks - that was a popular answer in the quiz....

[@marktownend8065]

UK railways use the same blue indicator in other single line systems with no signals. The Central Wales line NSTR passing loops, where drivers help themselves to tokens from huts on the platforms, are an example. The blue light is to indicate to drivers the TPWS at the stop board is successfully deactivated and won't trigger an intervention on passing it. In the RETB application, a special module listens in on the radio traffic and determnes when an electronic token has been issued by the system at that location. In the Central Wales example, small local interlockings control the points at the loops (converted from hydropneumatic 'spring points' to conventional electric machines). The action of removing the conventional token moves the points as required, deactivates the TPWS, and illuminates the blue light. As in RETB, a separate indicator confirms the points are in the correct position for a run in.

[@gavinjohnson5839]

Quiz, Blue light indicates TPWS status for Radio Block working. Located at the stop marker / start of section, solid blue light TPWS active, flashing deactivate. Also have blue interlock indecation in cabs, on doors closed and locked, off door release active.

[@GreenSignals]

Thank Gavin. Tune in next week to see if we agree!

[@OlanKenny]

RE; blue lights on the operational railway. In the Severn Tunnel they are used to signify for drivers to take power. I BELIEVE the first set is for freight drivers and the second set for passenger drivers?

[@GreenJimll]

Birmingham to Stratford-upon-Avon route, which is my local line, is 35km long, so comfortably in the 80-100km range for Brum-Stratters-Brum return. If the wires went up in the Birmingham area, the battery tech would mean no need for the knitting to go all the way down the branch. I better there's quite a few routes that fit into this sort of category. I bet Network Rail love this idea. I wonder how electrification of freight would fit into this discontinuous electrification infrastructure? Will we start to see electric locos with batteries, or maybe even "battery tenders" connected behind the loco to provide modular storage capacity? Hmm, I wonder if you could put the batteries into a ISO container seeing as lots of freight trains are plying back and forth between locations set up for handling these? Hot swap ISO battery boxes anyone?

[@GreenSignals]

Some interesting points. Need to do a bit more research on freight locos. I believe that the new Class 93 can produce 5,400hp when under the wires but when on non-electrified lines can utilise both its 1,200hp Caterpillar C32 diesel engine as well as the 540hp supplied by its two Lithium Titantte Oxide traction battery packs.

[@benandsophiepatterson-butc4374]

Very Interested to see how the Hitachi trial performs. I live not far from Salisbury on the WoE. I wonder what the thinking may be to replace the 159s. I hear rumours Battery 350/2s could be the order of the day. This trial will be the one to watch for many away from the electrified network

[@Tarkaman1]

Re the electric Hitachi train, it was said it uses Lithium Ion batteries??? I think he means LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate) - no one now uses Li-ion in transport due to excessive heat issues and charge/discharge ratios.

[@markselby7677]

With reference to battery trains: They say there is no weight penalty with the battery in the train trial weighing the same as the GU. Surely this overlooks that one of the main benefits of electric trains is their reduced weight compared to diesel trains and therefore less wear and tear on the tracks? I do think this is a great innovation and one that definitely has a use on some parts of our railway but that electrification should still be the gold standard aspiration. I hope this technology will not be used as an excuse not to electrify.

[@barryprice9962]

Quiz Blue lights are In the Seven Tunnel to let drivers know when they have reached the change in gradient

[@GreenSignals]

Tune in next week to find out! Thanks.

[@allanmorton6022]

Can't wait for your manifesto reviews and fun picking holes in them! Still think existing operators should be improved and expanded rather than open access eating capacity. Instead current operators were forced to cut routes to enable gaps for open operators by the ex-government. Good to hear from Lumo MD soon. 2×5:is silly for many reasons. Worse on LNER when type of train is swapped reservations are all cancelled. Great interview on the 0battery train but could it really do Edinburgh to Aberdeen/Inverness? Also discontinuous electrification is no good for freight locos. Still a good trial despite climate impact when the battery materials are being extracted. Also enjoyed the SE interview, especially resilience planning with battery use. Steve clearly enjoyed your questions! The quiz answer was particularly sneaky! Blue lights are used to calm suicidal people near the railway. However you can also find them on overheads to indicate isolated sections. Another question with multiple answers!

[@paulcs2607]

Blue light. Is the door interlock light meaning all doors are locked and the brakes can be released. But, are you excluding traction and rolling stock from the operational railway?

[@GreenSignals]

That's a good question (T&RS). But i need to keep the suspense going to next week's show.....!

[@chewyfoks1840]

QUIZ: Blue signals are used on the network at Finchley Road on the Metropolitan, to indicate Automatic Train Operation in effect.

[@blueskiesupnorth]

Blue lights are used to indicate train door interlock on power door stock.

[@angusswanson5984]

In 2024 how can we even contemplate procuring rolling stock that rules out level boarding. Blaming aged platforms being used as an excuse to do nothing. Shocking.

[@stepheng7586]

I wish an open access operator would take a look at giving CrossCountry a bit of competition.York to Bristol comes to mind.

[@alastairshankland7707]

yes, it would be good to get someone from XC on here to explain themselves.

[@Teddystream.]

2007 a battery hybrid Class 43 HST Hitachi's and Brush traction.

[@TheDaf95xf]

Afternoon guys 😊 What a cracking podcast again with as always great humour between you both and great topics 👍🏻 Hi to Steff 🤩

[@GreenSignals]

Hi back! And thanks for the great feedback, glad you enjoyed the episode - and the humour!

[@lukejoshua5156]

Blue lights are used for OHLE test sections I have one in my depot

[@alanbuckett]

Quiz: [funny answer] on a 1980s class 37 dressed in police livery ...meaning 'get out of the way, emergency vehicle coming through'

[@GreenSignals]

Good shout - although not the correct answer on this occasion!

[@Crepello100]

On the pro 'green' theme it would be great if you two could cover the freight aspect a bit more. One subject hardly anyone anywhere talks about is short-sea intermodal frieght traffic, that's mainly containers between EU-GB. As I understand it 94% of freight through the Channel Tunnel is on lorry shuttles with just 6% on through freight trains. I've heard that some inland rail-served customs facilities now exist in Britain which should help and there's been some trial runs of freights up HS1. With the latter I'm not sure why, because surely there's enough freight suitable for the smaller containers that can go via the domestic routes? In a nutshell, to an outsider like me it seems like it's currently a massive missed opportunity to put freight on rail and go green, and probably the government's fault cos everything is!

[@GreenSignals]

Excellent idea. We will do just that!

[@HankHill-dt1we]

Re: NT/Vegetation. NR does have a vegetation management plan or so I am told every time I report issues and signals that are becoming obscured. The problem is then it then takes months to sort the issue, probably after planning all the endless isolations and blocks to safely access the cess/site ect, oh and find someone passed out with a pair of suitable shears! But it seems to me more often than not these days NR has the ability to grow trees that are just the right shape to go around the outline of the stock using the track! :) Like my old boss told NR in many of the endless meetings he had with them ‘that’s the problem with trees isn’t it? They keep growing’. But I agree with Nigel the vegetation issue is very poor on the routes I use and NR are not on top of it at all.

[@rikrobson]

blue lights are used in the Scottish lines to indicate the RETB token blocks

[@GreenSignals]

Tune in next week to find out! Thanks.

[@darksars3622]

"Batteries on a 80x, what could go wrong." - famus last words of the 7:19 to York

[@MitchelMor]

Blue lights are also of course used in cabs as a Doors Closed Visual or 'Pilot light'

[@BenRattigan]

I’d love to hear the same from Northern like Steve has done with Southeastern but Northern is more tight lipped than MI6 with any communication.

[@GreenSignals]

Well, we can but ask!

[@Birchingtonuk]

I think that the "Today" programme and other radio programmes can be heard on BBC Sounds rather than the iPlayer. I heard Richard Bowker on Today and thought that he was very good.

[@Richardhill1978]

Blue lights great question I’m going for markers on Overhead lines to mark the end of an isolation section for maintenance staff if flashing blue lights If fixed Blue lights Or do you mean the measurement system on the yellow flat that somehow rack up more track miles than Nick Millington Keep up the great work

[@martinoban]

The WHL is one part of scotrail where traffic has fully recovered since Covid and is expected to reach record numbers this year.

[@gordonwebb8590]

Flashing blue lights are used to indicate the limits of an isolated section of overhead lines. Blue lights are also used on certain platforms as an anti suicide measure, because it is believed they have a calming effect (Northallerton is station that has them). The colour of junction indicator lights on signals is known as "Lunar blue".

[@GreenSignals]

Cheers Gordon. Tune in next week to find out!

[@stephendavies6949]

Quiz: If "operational" is the key word, then the blue flashing lights used to warn workers of the status of OLE could be discounted, as the railway is not "operational" whilst such maintenance is ongoing. So, my answer is, "Blue lights are used at platforms where passengers may struggle to notice gaps between the train and platform edge" (ie, to help passengers "mind the gap"). Not that I can win again..😒

[@Samson47088]

Severn Tunnel uses blue lights to signify the gradient change to drivers

[@GreenSignals]

Cheers. Tune in next week to see what we think!

[@Adam-pk2te]

Quiz guess. Blue signal in the Severn tunnel and it signifies the end of the descent and beginning of ascent? Basing this off something I saw on train simulator lol no idea if it’s correct

[@GreenSignals]

Thanks Adam. Tune in next week for the answer.....

[@gzk6nk]

When 2 five car trains form a 10 car, is catering available on both sets or just one? I have heard that on GW at least, the answer is 'NO!'.

[@stephenbarrs2318]

I'm glad a new open access service , as i am put off using the current system of having booking a specific train and seat for fear of getting on the ring train and being find.

[@GreenSignals]

Which curiously open access does nothing to help, indeed it makes the situation worse. The cheap deals on open access operators are specific to their services only. You can’t use a Ryanair ticket in easyJet…….

[@alistairmoss1549]

A battery /electric version of Scotrail 385 is a must for Fife circle and borders railway

[@davidcrossley8771]

Blue light as seen on the West Highland Lines showing as a TPWS status indicator

[@stephendavies6949]

Don't change, Mr Bowker. Please continue sharing your informed opinions with us. 20mins 36sec: nice hat. The Steve White interview was excellent. Cheriton. I never considered that one. The quiz is a key element of the success of your programme.

[@andycross50006]

On far north and west highland RETB radio sections

[@GreenSignals]

Cheers. Tune in next week to hear the answer!

[@GreenSignals]

Cheers. Tune in next week to hear the answer!

[@GreenSignals]

Cheers. Tune in next week to hear the answer!

[@roadie4360]

I can't see the issue in duplicating routes especially with the poor service already present and complaints about using 4 or 5 car trains on congested routes. Cross Country, GWR, Trans Pennine etc springs to mind.

[@don1estelle]

I hope they remove the word Road from the ORR

[@grahamallen1970]

On the side of 325 emu Royal mail trains? Do I win?

[@GreenSignals]

You'll have to tune in next week to find out!

[@grahamallen1970]

@@GreenSignals tell me I won't tell a single person!

[@richardjames63]

Blue lights are at the lowest point of the Severn Tunnel to let drivers know when to take power.

[@GreenSignals]

Tune in next week to hear the answer...!

[@stephendavies6949]

That D-Ream song was being blasted out somewhere on the plebs side of the Downing Street gates as the PM was announcing the election. Now, that is ironic.

[@OlanKenny]

Yes, Beardy Branson lets send MORE trains through the overcrowded Castlefield Corridor in Manchester. Can't possibly see any flaw in this plan.

[@kimrennie5294]

Blue signals. On London Underground at the ‘migration point’ from conventional colour light signalling into Transmission Based Train Control.

[@audigex]

Virgin's Open Access request, as you say, doesn't really make sense - they're just duplicating routes. Although I could take argument that Glasgow could do with going for 2-hourly to hourly I'd like to see services to Blackburn and Barrow from London - fairly large populations that have no direct access to London, and plenty of opportunity for revenue abstraction en route...

[@watcherzero5256]

Am I being cynical if I suspect this trial is aimed at validating a design to bid for the Northern rolling stock replacement BEMU requirement?

[@GreenSignals]

Perhaps a little cynical, but then again, real world operational data and knowledge is of great use.

[@mrcogginsgarage7062]

Blue lights are used on OHLE to mark the end of an isolation .

[@adodgygeeza]

Amusing, using a pretty poor EV technology stack (Leaf) is still advanced and innovative in rail! In the long term all trains should be battery electric, run the cost/weight numbers on automotive batteries and motors and it leads you to the conclusion that it is possible for all trains to be arbitrarily powerful. This would allow battery electric trains to accelerate at their traction limit (0.13g) tp to nearly their top speed, this would shave minutes off each acceleration. For a high speed train this would require about 90,000bhp, impossible from a OHL but pretty easy from a battery. So in the long term all trains will be battery trains with the OHL essentially being mobile chargers.

[@andrewkozminski6466]

Quiz: Electrical Isolation Limit Marker

[@alexmckenna1171]

Maybe Tesla's tech would have been an improvement on the Nissan Leaf battery which is a bit old style now? Even so, this idea could "electrify" the Marshlink line from Hastings and Ore to Ashford, as the third rail can't be extended..

[@marktownend8065]

Being developed by the same company who partnered Nissan, not necessarily using all the same hardware I would have thought. The original Leaf's major weakness was its lack of battery temperature management, but I think that changed on later models. In this rail example the brief is not necessarily to be the highest power density but to achieve a target all in weight of the battery module that is similar to that of the trains' diesel generator unit for easy swaps without adjusting suspension, affecting ride etc. That could mean more possible choice in chemistry and detailed cell design that could prioritise reliability, life, and safety over sheer capacity.

[@physiocrat7143]

The third rail can be extended perfectly well. The only obstacle is ORR. If safety is an issue - and how many accidents have there been? - the conductor rail can be shielded.

[@neilbennett7228]

Full toilet tanks is my guess

[@simonaltham9054]

No climate change? Here in sunny Birmingham winter had become 24 hours of snow on the ground the entire season, until last winter when we didn't have any snow on the ground at all. Daisies and buttercups flowering the week before Christmas? The lawn not stopping growing, although a little slower? Doesn't get any more obvious than that.

[@GreenSignals]

You just have to humour them Simon.....

[@simonaltham9054]

@@GreenSignals Not a lot else you can do if they can't understand what's right infront of them.

[@christopherwright1795]

Points indicators ! Blue light

[@GreenSignals]

Cheers! Tune in next week to hear the answer......

[@christopherwright1795]

⁠ok Chris wright should I get the answer correct

[@martyn6792]

what happens if the battery casings get damaged, we know what happens in ev cars

[@joegrey9807]

SET shortlisting a company that doesn't have manufacturing facilities in the UK will hopefully focus minds on level boarding and on train ambience. If Stadler were out of the equation then we'd get no level boarding and have the usual cheap looking, claustrophobic bland tat that the more established train builders have been foisting onto the UK public for the last few decades.

[@GreenSignals]

I think Steve explained clearly how the spec would work on this procurement. Bidders have to follow the spec or they are non compliant.

[@joegrey9807]

@@GreenSignals yes I get that. But I think Stadler could be forcing the quality of the bids up even if they don't win. To me it doesn't make sense to be insistent that we 'buy British' (whatever that means in modern train building) and then moan about the quality of modern trains. Personally, I hope the weighting focuses on the quality of the final product more than the social aspect of locally built. Not only will that result in a train that is likely to attract more passengers for the next 40 years, but it'll drive overall quality up.

[@Tarkaman1]

Re ORCATS and ICC costs, these can be calculated now far more accurately using AI algorithms that use mass historical data, route costs (ICC which now even adds climate resilience and rolling stock type into account as well) and can far more accurately predict future costs if, the correct LLMs are generated in the first place. I agree that more research needs to be done but we should by now be moving away from EU-stipulated open markets, to what is best for the UK.

[@don1estelle]

How much of climate change is caused by Rockets

[@GreenSignals]

Very little as a percentage I suspect but interesting question!

[@TrimeshSZ]

Very little - firstly because although rockets use a lot of fuel there are relatively few of them and secondly because rocket propellants are generally a lot less carbon intensive than the fuels used on land. There are some exceptions to this - RP1 (used by the Falcon 9 and later Soyuz first stages) is basically kerosene and 1-1 dimethyl hydrazine that's used in some mostly smaller rockets also contains carbon, although as a much smaller percentage of fuel weight. High performance rockets tend to use LOX/LH2 because extra hassle of dealing with cryogenic propellants is justified by the better performance, and they exhaust only water.

[@don1estelle]

@@TrimeshSZ Lol

[@tingewickmax]

Richard Branson noted serial abstactor from the public purse. Virgin shafted open access operator Shropshire and Wrexham by denying them access to a key station. By all means return the favour to the beardie weirdie.

[@GreenSignals]

It is the ORR who decides who has access to what station.

[@gzk6nk]

If Virgin open access is granted on WCML, given the awfulness of Avanti, many passengers will vote with their feet and travel Virgin, which will be clearly abstractive on Avanti. Therefore it makes no sense for open access to have to be non-abstractive as the more awful the franchise operator is, the more need there will be for competition... which almost by definition WILL be abstractive!

[@andrewhotston983]

I wouldn't like to be on board a battery-powered Class 800 when the battery gets damaged and starts to overheat...