HMS Argus - Guide 318

[@Drachinifel]

Pinned post for Q&A :)

[@lord_o_muppet]

What got you Into naval history or that topic in general?

[@joshthomas-moore2656]

What are your favorite examples of ships that "Died as they lived"?

[@robertmills8640]

I think the proposed 1919 raid would be a great candidate for one of your "what if" wargames videos.

[@brendonbewersdorf986]

Compared to the graf zeppelin do you think the German plans to convert the Europa and into a carrier would have been a more effective design?

[@toriasygramul7128]

SMS Frauenlob

[@Big_E_Soul_Fragment]

Impressive that this ship made it to WW2 and actually served in the war

[@jon-paulfilkins7820]

She was still around, still sea worth and serviceable, and above all, we were desperate! I remember my Grandfather talking about his first ship, in 1940 laid up so long the deck planking was mostly rotten or warped and underneath that a huge amount of rust.

[@Neithan02]

You make do with what Is there. Does it float? Can it be used? Et voila you have a warship

[@myparceltape1169]

Many of the WW1 ships served to the end of WW2. Some were famous and Warspite objected to being scrapped.

[@nicoferguson1215]

Not a brit ship, but a famous American example is the Texas

[@Tomyironmane]

USS Langley (CV-1) was crippled by Japanese air attack and scuttled in 1942.

[@Paludion]

Incredible that an aircraft carrier made from the hull of a cruise ship managed to survive that long, both from budget cuts and ennemy weapons.

[@mattwoodard2535]

Of the two, the budget cuts were probably the bigger enemy. sm

[@charlesparr1611]

Cruise ships didnt even exist, at this point in time. The hulls were those of Ocean Liners, which are very fast very strongly built vessels designed to keep a rigid schedule that means they cannot simply skip things like major storms. Aside from armour, which as I understand it is a thing 'attached' to the hulls of the ships, not something that 'is' the hull of a ship, it's likely that a Liner would be among the strongest, fastest, and most fuel efficient designs available, and also designed to accommodate large amounts of people, and of course Warships needed to carry a lot of people as crew both to operate all the additional systems required on a military vessel, and those along to replace casualties. All in all, I have a feeling it wasn't an inferior choice from the outset, and would think the real problems would involve obsolescence of the military additions and not the Hull itself that would be at issue over time, except possibly for size as newer aircraft presumably need the larger flight decks that became the standard... it seems like a lot of Carriers were conversions from other designs, I wonder if it might be that the hull design isn't all that critical, and when you contemplate the state of the worlds economy around that time, you can guess there were MANY half finished and also unwanted ships being built all over the world...

[@franzfanz]

They certainly got their money's worth out of her.

[@TheChonaman]

Keep in mind that CVs were always surrounded by support ships. Many destroyers, some cruisers, and battleships in most cases. These were the sacred cows of WWII once the navy realized that airpower was all-important for naval supremacy.

[@neilwilson5785]

At least the sailors could buy the drinks package and go on shore excursions.

[@mudmug1]

Here's a log book entry from my grandfather “aircraft type: Hurricane, pilot: self, Duty: D.L. on Argus (over the side first landing)”) With this entry is a photo of concerned crew looking over the side of Argus at a slick on the water and my grandfather's head bobbing in the water

[@kommandantgalileo]

Preserve that photo, send it to a museum, do something to protect this piece of history!

[@robertmills8640]

The proposed 1919 raid makes one wonder what design and doctrine changes would have resulted if the raid actually happened.

[@Julius_Hardware]

A good subject for Drach

[@rickgehring7507]

that was one of the debates my Grandfather and some of his aviation friends had, my opinion , it would of changed naval tactics for ever, I truly believe Japan would of never built Yamato and Musashi as battle ships, they would of been "super carries, I don't think Iowa class Battleships would exist, that money would of gone to US "super carriers"

[@gregorywright4918]

@@fullmontyuk Much greater appreciation for anti-torpedo nets in anchorages...

[@Aren-1997]

Would be interested to hear more about such what-if historical events in future vids.

[@rogerwilco2]

@@rickgehring7507 You might want to learn the difference between "of" and "have".

[@francis9469]

my great grandfather served on Argus in 1918, always nice to see the histories of his ships!

[@josenighthawk]

Cool! ... What Pride & Honor!

[@stevevalley7835]

Argus was one of the carriers classified "experimental" by the Washington Treaty. That meant she could be replaced at the Admiralty's convenience, rather than waiting until she was 20 years old. I have read that the Admiralty had a plan to replace Argus, Hermes, and Eagle with new carriers in the early 30s, as they were all classified "experimental". Going by the standard displacements listed in Wiki, the carriers in service in the late 20s displaced a total of 118,830 tons, of the UK's 135,000 ton quota. Not enough displacement remained of the quota to build Ark Royal. Even though laid up, Argus was still classified as a carrier. She was taken in hand in 36 for conversion to a mother ship for target drones, which included removing her armament. As an unarmed non-combatant upon recommissioning in August 38, her tonnage became available for Ark Royal, which commissioned in December, 38. This was the same scheme the USN adopted for Langley, converting her to a seaplane tender, to free the tonnage for Wasp. Unfortunately, budget constraints in the 30s prevented the Admiralty completing their plan, replacing Hermes and Eagle with additional Ark Royal class carriers.

[@gregorywright4918]

Ark Royals would have been nice; the Wasp was a stupid attempt to squeeze a Yorktown down to a Ranger, and suffered for it.

[@stevevalley7835]

@@gregorywright4918 the USN had no choice with Wasp. They only had 15,000 tons available under the treaty, because Langley was the only one old enough to be classified as "experimental". All the treaty carriers were compromised. I have read comments that Ark Royal was lost due to inadequate compartmentalization, to save weight. The Yorktowns were compromised by not having staggered boiler and engine rooms. If Yorktown and Hornet had had staggered boiler and engine rooms, like the Essex did, they might have been able to limp away, rather than sitting, dead in the water, until the Japanese arrived to finish them off. Of course, that brings the alt history question, if Yorktown and Enterprise were built to the treaty limit at that time, 27,000, about the same as Essex, they could have had staggered boiler and engine rooms. Then we don't get Wasp, which made itself useful in the Atlantic, but was too vulnerable to survive in the Pacific. But, with a 27,000 ton design in hand, the USN may have laid down two carriers as soon as Congress authorized them in 38, so they would both be completed in 41, rather than Hornet being ready, but Essex delayed, due to the need to design from a clean sheet.

[@jeebusk]

"The temporary installation of a dummy island that was moved about the flight deck" All this time I never know our video games were so realistic!

[@trooperdgb9722]

That was a typically brilliant line.....and what a great idea!

[@hazchemel]

thanks for this Drach, I love the air of "we'll make it up as we go along" even before getting wet.

[@jeebusk]

Last time I was this early, a battle-carrier seemed like a good idea.

[@91Redmist]

Cool. Only early full length flight deck carrier I knew about was the USS Langley. Looks like Argus was the first.

[@mpersad]

What a remarkable ship, with a hugely impressive record. Thank you Drach!

[@shathriel]

Have a few books on carriers, I think her original torpedo bombers were called Cuckoos and six were sold to the imperial Japanese navy, also during WW2 she was saved by the wrong order being given during a Med convoy mission, when an enemy torpedo bomber attacked her and the officer on watch ordered a turn that would have doomed her but the rating at the steering wheel was that flustered he did the opposite whilst carrying out the exact order because of a change in wording of the order to alter the heading which he automatically did the opposite of. I'd have to find the right book again and that section to word it properly :)

[@SennaAugustus]

Argus was instrumental to the war effort, one of her highlights was sending 12 Hawker Hurricanes to Malta in Operation Hurry (Club Run) and participating in Operation Pedestal (but was hindered by not being able to launch planes at night, and with Eagle sunk and Victorious on fire, leaving the British with no air cover for 4 days of battles and air raids).

[@davidbirt8486]

It was Indomitable that was on fire, the Vic as I recall was unscathed.

[@adrianrutterford762]

Lunch and Drac. Saturday lunch sorted!

[@Paludion]

For me, it's coffee and Drach, or tea when I got the mood.

[@Katy_Jones]

Biplane version of Pearl Harbor? You mean the monoplane version of Taranto...

[@The_Modeling_Underdog]

Admiralty: "We're running out of aircraft carriers." HMS Argus (gently pushing the door open with its cane): "Aye. Here's me new legs, laddies. Should we go and have a stroll around?"

[@TheChonaman]

I know that virtually everyone who subscribed to this channel is a history nerd. Just want to shout out to you all for watching and enjoying. Incredible content, Drach. Argus is totally unknown to me until this video. Thanks for informing me!

[@purleybaker]

So well put.

[@smokejaguarsix7757]

Isnt it amazing that a ship that started out carrying canvas covered aircraft as a proof of concept in fact ended up being a useful even important member of the fleet? Against all odds and threats she survived the war when so many of the purpose built, modern, deadlier combat vessels around her did not. Its actually impressive.

[@iancarr8682]

I'm not clear why the location has been selected but the bell of HMS Argus is on display in Bristol Cathedral, UK.

[@byronharano2391]

The evolution of the aircraft carrier in under 30 minutes. Excellent

[@agesflow6815]

Thank you, Drachinifel.

[@thebashar]

This really cool in an unexpected way, I am presently assisting the construction of a warship named Argus, USCGC Argus.

[@silverhost9782]

A valuable workhorse

[@richardthomas6890]

What a fantastic lesson in aircraft carrier design instigated by HMS Argus

[@Wallda_25]

really happy to learn about this ship. Also a 1919 equivalent of Pearl Harbour at Wilhlemshafen is a fascinating "What if" to me. Primarily because, if successful, there would be a slight chance i would get to see a modern day equivalent to the arizona memorial of any potentially sunk ship to visit. Althought the wreckage of könig, kaiser or (lets be a bit dreamy about it) Mackensen would probably not have survived long enough, since germans dont like it when there is perfectly useable space left blocked by an underwater grave- and scrapyard.

[@robdgaming]

Several WWI German naval vessels are still on the bottom of Scapa Flow, where they were scuttled by their crews in 1919 to prevent the British using them if the war resumed. Most of these, however, were raised and scrapped by the British in the following years.

[@Wallda_25]

​@@robdgaming yeah i'd just love to be able to walk on one of the older battleships or even cruisers. Dont get me wrong its nice to have the U-Boats and all the civilian vessels left but at least one major military vessel from the worldwars period would be nice to have. But the cirumstances were never in favor for that to happen. So a memorial i think would have been more likely if one sank in harbour

[@malcolmtaylor518]

Beardmore were an innovative heavy engineering company, entering two aircraft in the first Army aeroplane trials. Its interesting to see the efforts they made to design an early aircraft carrier, keeping the Royal Navy at the forefront of the new technology.

[@Jimorian]

Love the new thumbnail format, lot of great info right up front.

[@thomaskositzki9424]

Wow, for one of the first aircraft carriers to serve in the RN, she certainly had a lot to do in WW2. Impressive career!

[@hisdadjames4876]

More identities than David Bowie and, like him, pretty effective in all of them!

[@maxrobe]

I love the design method from perceived wisdom to actual wisdom. We need all these bits, OK get rid of some of the bit, right basically get rid of all the bits and just have an unobstructed landing area. (However we do need to test all these principles in situ because we do like bits).

[@peterhughes7099]

Thanks for adding the “evolution” of the carrier design Mr D. Good stuff as always 😊

[@davidbrennan660]

She did honourable service .

[@Archangelglenn]

I want to see a video on HMS Unicorn. The support carrier. Or the heavy cruiser HMS London.

[@kentbarnes1955]

That was truly fascinating. Thanks Drac! I knew of Argus, but had forgotten she survived WW2. I have found they have a 1/700 scale model kit available. Doing one (as I know many have) of her in that Dazzle Camo scheme would be unique. I might have to look into scratch building something larger. Thanks again.

[@SynchroScore]

I like this first picture for the anachronism. You have an airplane, but you also have a crane that's powered by a separate vertical boiler, like contemporary construction equipment.

[@bobbenson6825]

I just finished my first re-reading of Norman Polmar's "Aircraft Carriers" (published 1969) in nearly 50 years. I nearly wore that book out rereading it in my teens. So I loved the synchronicity of this popping up as the first Drach video after I was done.

[@pierz882]

The most beautiful aircraft carrier finally gets her just attention. Splendid video.

[@joaoalbertodosanjosgomes1536]

Excellent channel.

[@darrellsmith4204]

Hard to believe it took 318 guides to get to Argus.

[@PizzaTreeYT]

The dazzle camouflage pattern in HMS Furious at 2:17 is absolutely dope.

[@imouse3246]

That's quite a career.

[@robdgaming]

Argus seems to have had a charmed life, Malta runs were very risky from what I've heard.

[@phaasch]

A truely pioneering ship, which proved to be worth it's weight in gold, not only showing the RN and the rest of the world the way forward from WW1, but got to see out a good slice of front line work in it's later years, too.

[@katrinapaton5283]

And yet the Japanese, even after Hosho, managed to get it SO badly wrong with Kaga and Akagi.

[@kenjackson5685]

Just remarkable...Thank-you for sharing

[@stuartaaron613]

A nice video about "Old Flatiron."

[@timonsolus]

The poor old Argus should never have been forced into front line combat service in WW2 - but the loss of the fleet carriers HMS Courageous in 1939 and HMS Glorious in 1940 made it unavoidable, as the Royal Navy was desperately short of flight decks while fighting a multi-ocean war.

[@Cailus3542]

In WW2, if a ship had a flight deck (or could have a flight deck jammed on top), it was more precious than diamonds. That became less of an issue in 1944/45 as the Allies had entire armadas of the things, but it was critical in 1942/43 in every ocean.

[@rmyerscmi]

Certainly got their money’s worth out of that ship! Great vid.

[@stewartellinson8846]

Fascinating

[@jimtalbott9535]

Her hangar bay reminds me of a Roro vehicle ferry - dang big space!

[@ExplodingLiger]

Love the new thumbnails

[@peterblood50]

I guess not every wartime ship had a commendable combat record. Some had to handle the more mundane tasks, but still worthy of recognition for the duties performed.

[@siquq]

I love HMS Argus!

[@nigeldeacon3271]

Interesting, about 10 years ago I was at a school in Hampshire which had HMS Argus bell which had apparently been given to the school by an ex CO. Perhaps she had more than one bell during her interesting career.

[@johnfisher9692]

An amazing ship really, starting life as a cruise ship and then being the first of the true aircraft carriers

[@JohnThomas-gy6lq]

Great job as always!

[@TomLuTon]

"Dummy Island that was moved around the flight deck" Got this image of it being moved around like a piece of furniture "Left. LEFT! No, the other left! Now pivot!"(or would that be 'port' and 'come about'?)

[@I_am_Phil_Lee]

Well, as a dummy used just to test the effects on wind turbulence, it was probably wood and canvas, so you may not be all that wide of the mark. The Royal Navy has a history of achieving improbable feats with pure manpower and the astute use of leverage and tackles, so a few men using sheerlegs and a block or two may have been exactly how it was done. If you have seen the gun run you will realise that wheels are just another part to be carried!

[@buckfaststradler4629]

My grandfather worked at Beardmore's in Clydebank during WW1 - thus avoiding potentially fatal service on the Western Front.

[@LordEvan5]

A pleasure as usual

[@DVDFGlenCo]

Impressive career

[@captain0080]

Interesting, didnt know wind tunnels were a thing that early or that they were used for ships.

[@randomnickify]

Wright brothers created first wind tunnel even before their first flight, wind tunnels were a thing since before the begining :) Using them on aircraft carriers seems kind of obvious.

[@captain0080]

@@randomnickify Interesting.

[@chrissouthgate4554]

@@randomnickify I believe they had to blow cigarette smoke into the (small) tunnel to show airflow.

[@ccalthrop6347]

Interestingly, RFA Argus, which I’ve previously sailed aboard, is moored about two hundred yards from where I’m listening to this.

[@BattleshipWarspite]

It is amazingly how Britain invented the world, First Aircraft carrier, HMS Furious, HMS Argus, HMS Vindictive, we seem one evolution. HMS Furious - first Aircraft carrier HMS Argus - First carrier to have full-length flight deck. HMS Hermes - First carrier to have control tower, Hurricane Bow. HMS M2 - First Submarine Aircraft carrier. HMS Courageous - First carrier to have hydraulic catapult Illustrious class first Armoured flight deck carrier HMS Illustrious - First carrier to have mirror-landing system HMS Ocean - First carrier to have successful naval jet Sea Vampire. HMS Perseus - First carrier to have Steam catapult HMS Triumph - First carrier to have Angled Flight deck Queen Elizabeth class - First Twin Tower Carrier.

[@mikearmstrong8483]

First ship to be designed and built as an aircraft carrier, instead of a knock up of something else: IJN Hosho.

[@BattleshipWarspite]

@mikearmstrong8483 Hōshō was initially designed as a seaplane carrier like HMS Campania with a forward flying-off deck, 32 aircraft, four low-angle 14-centimeter (5.5 in) guns, and four anti-aircraft (AA) guns. The plan was revised after reports were received from Japanese observers with the Royal Navy in Europe about the desirability to be able to land aircraft on the ship. The new requirements were modeled on HMS Furious after she received her rear flight deck in 1918. The ship was to be capable of 30 knots (56 km/h; 35 mph) and fitted with a forward flight deck, island and funnels amidships, and a large hangar aft. Shortly thereafter based on observations of landing trials on Furious and HMS Argus, the world's first flush-decked aircraft carrier, Hōshō's flight deck design was revised in April 1919. The island was removed and the funnels were moved to one side to create an unobstructed, full-length flight deck, and the ship was reclassified as an aircraft carrier. The ship's hull was based on that of a large cruiser and she was given a small island. Her three funnels were mounted on the starboard side and swiveled to lie horizontal during flight operations. Hōshō's designed speed was reduced to 25 knots (46 km/h; 29 mph), based on British experiences during World War I.

[@boobah5643]

Re: _Queen Elizabeth_ Not the first twin tower carrier; as mentioned in this video, however, none of them stayed that way because when you put the towers on either side of the flight deck flight operations get... exciting. Also, still not seeing how that is any sort of improvement over one, larger tower. Not seeing it as worse, either, but as some sort of improvement? I've been waiting over a decade for an explanation why the _Venator_ wasn't a stupid design.

[@alexandermonro6768]

I wouldn't really consider HMS M2 as a great success. Perhaps best quietly forgotten...

[@WALTERBROADDUS]

@@boobah5643 if you're asking about the Queen Elizabeth-class? Basically, you're splitting the functions navigation and Air traffic control. For each operation, you better want to be in different locations. Air traffic control and spotting is better done aft. The ship handling is better done at a position forward.

[@AW-hj4eh]

My father served on the Argus in WWII. I remember him telling me that one of her nicknames was "The Floating Coffin"

[@comentedonakeyboard]

Impressive ship👍

[@nigeldeforrest-pearce8084]

Fascinating!!!

[@jasonz7788]

greatwork thank you

[@Cbabilon675]

The longest lasting escort carriers that I've heard of.

[@fhlostonparaphrase]

Huh, a planned 1919 air-raid on Wilhelmshaven with carriers? Interesting! Also, it turns out I've been mixing up Argus with Hermes...

[@jlvfr]

Amazing longevity.

[@MattVF]

Hey Drach, Can you cover the loss of HMS Glorious? I’d be interested on your take on this debacle!

[@llllib]

Just to be sure you know about this one, right? kzbin.info/www/bejne/nYeVZqRsZbibrJo By the way I think I have recollection of Drach covering this topic, but can't immediately find it. It may not have been at his channel but bilge pumps, or maybe it's part of drydock. Or maybe I'm mistaken and it was someone else.

[@MattVF]

@@llllib I’ve seen that. To be honest though there is soooo much more to that catastrophe

[@llllib]

@@MattVF Yep. Could be what I recall was on Armoured carriers.

[@marktuffield6519]

Ben-My-Chree, or woman of my heart, the Chree is I think, pronounced like Kree. Perhaps a native Manx speaker can confirm? It is my favourite ship of WW1 because of the amazing people who served on board her, was there ever a ship with men like Samson, Longmore, Childers and Benn on the roster? The excellent book by Ian M. Burns telling the tale of her adventures can be found on the Cross & Cockade International website, or if you prefer the Society's uninspiring new name try the Great War Aviation Society 🙂

[@jimkinnoir6131]

Think the ships bell is in Bristol industrial museum

[@Peterax788]

Good info Drac, is it possible to make a video on HMS Chaser the light aircraft carrier?

[@fourteenfour1]

Amazing how small these look relative to the aircraft on their decks.

[@triumph_spitfire_2586]

Bless the old girl for nearly lasting 30 years in service. Yet another great loss in regards to it's scrapping

[@wideyxyz2271]

My dad was on this ship for a short while. He was billeted on her whilst on a re training stint in Chatham.

[@Draythur]

white ensign flag for the navy is a nice touch

[@pistonar]

Sold for scrap. 3 words that you wish didn't apply to some of these ships. She would have been, like most of the British ships on display I've been on, an amazing museum.

[@animal16365]

Didn't Argus have supports running down the middle of the hanger deck?? I remember reading about that in a book call (Illistrated guide to Aircraft carriers of the world).

[@bytesback.]

You can see the hanger in this video kzbin.info/www/bejne/hHfbn4lmj86UrLs

[@sadwingsraging3044]

She served well in all of her duties right up till the end. 07

[@inyobill]

I had no idea that a WW I era carrieir was active in the second war.

[@bakaneko113]

"Whereupon she was sold for scrap." Right in the feels.

[@blueboats7530]

The huge lifts and high hanger makes me think that in the time of sticks and fabric the only way to have an actual payload was to make the aircraft far larger

[@lawrencewestby9229]

It sounds like the Admiralty got its money's worth out of Argus. She answered the call to any use they wanted made of her.

[@WALTERBROADDUS]

The Russians wish they had a carrier that good.

[@lewisirwin5363]

Jeez, I'm hopeless- the first thing I did when I saw the title was start humming *Ween* :P

[@edwardgilmour9013]

The twin Islands on either side of the Deck and a deliberate Wind tunnel seems to have more relevance for land modern planes on a non-catapult carrier.

[@adventuresinmodelrailroading]

Imagine being the first bridge crew and having aircraft flying off just above you.

[@fooman2108]

Some sources I've read described her as the first escort carrier

[@johnforsyth7987]

Thank you for another very informative video on a ship I knew about before. But your video has certainly deepened my knowledge about HMS Argus. Do you know what happened to the other mid-sized ocean liner that was incomplete at this time?

[@Tundraviper41]

I wonder if he will do a video on the USS Wolverine, one of two great lakes aircraft carriers.

[@floydvaughn9666]

Go to The History Guy.

[@floydvaughn9666]

You Tube it. History Guy, I think has it.

[@floydvaughn9666]

I'm back! USS Wolverine is on Dark Seas and about 5 more video sites. I didn't know until now, but she had a sister ship, USS Sable. So there were 2 of them. You're welcome.

[@jeffblacky]

I built the model kit Then later added a bridge from the Kaga And funnel from KG5 battleship Called it Fargus

[@frednone]

Did the Americans or Japanese do any of the island placement experiments with Langly and Hosho, or was it more, "Lets put the Island, ummmm..., there?

[@vectorbrony3473]

Pilot: We've caught the High Seas fleet napping in port! Get ready for the attack and send back the flag signal "Tally-ho, Tally-ho, Tally-ho"

[@trooperdgb9722]

Best comment yet!

[@Doc_Tar]

I'd say the Brits got their investment back and more with Argus.

[@1pierosangiorgio]

Campania, Engadine... Britain has so many ships it had to name them after foreign's countries regions, mythological creatures, etc.

[@gar6446]

Just imagine if The Great Eastern had made it till 1914 and was converted to a Carrier.

[@cmck472]

If Brunel had been involved, it probably would have had cast-iron airplanes on it! 😊

[@patrickwentz8413]

She lived a good warriors life. She did not deserve her fate.

[@madcyclist58]

Another historically important British ship that wasn't preserved. But I suppose there were so many that we couldn't have kept them all. I wish we'd kept at least one battleship though.

[@TheWebstaff]

When you see these flat tops straight on I always think it looks like they ran them under a low bridge.

[@Dog.soldier1950]

Planned 1919 air attack?