Hnefatafl - Tafl - Corner Escape - Discussion and Rules (Part 1)

[@KOYARTOS]

I have taken the liberty of transcribing the rules for this and a few other versions of tafl from your videos. In my transcriptions I have endeavored to be Clear, Concise, Consistent and Complete. I hope you will agree. Hnefatafl - Corner Escape Setup (Sorry, I don't know how to put an appropriate image here.) The (K)ing and (D)efenders are light and the (A)ttackers are dark. Initially, the K sits on the (T)hrone, the center square. The (C)orners are marked. Movement The As move first. All pieces move orthogonally in a straight line for any distance chosen without changing direction or jumping other pieces. Only the K may land on the T or a C. All pieces may pass through the empty T. Capture A piece is captured custodially by enclosing it on opposite orthogonally adjacent sides with 2 enemy pieces. The captured piece is immediately removed from the board. The K is captured by enclosing it on all 4 orthogonally adjacent sides. The K may take part in captures. Both the empty T and the Cs may be used to capture in lieu of a piece. But the Cs may not be used to capture the K. The K on an edge may be captured by 3 As (Norse Americn rules) or just keep playing (Fetlar rules). If a piece encloses 2 or 3 enemy pieces in different orthogonal directions, all of them are captured. A piece may halt between 2 enemy pieces without harm. Winning the Game The Ds win by moving the K onto a C square. The As win by capturing the K. If either player has no legal move, his opponent wins. If the K threatens to win by repeating the same move 3 times in a row, the Ds lose. A stalemate occurs when the K is prevented from reaching any corner by the As but has not been captured. The Ds lose (Norse American rules). The game is drawn (Fetlar rules).

[@Staffofstuff]

Καμψειπαγγόνυ Your post on this is amazingly informative and welcome, since i've been trying to make sense of this game for a while now. However, when you say "captured custodially", do you mean that the opponent piece being captured is removed, that is, taken, from the board, or do you mean the opponent piece stays there unable to move? Your use of the term "custodially" is, sorry to say, confusing, and I'm not sure what you mean by it. Again, really appreciate your post, but I would like clarification on the capture method.

[@Staffofstuff]

Staffofstuff Replying to my own post. I really wish I would have watched the video in its entirety before posting this question. The video answered my question.

[@KOYARTOS]

Staffofstuff Thank you for your astute observation. I have edited my original post so as to eliminate any confusion.

[@jeffk1722]

So to confirm, you can capture 1, 2, or 3 pieces at once? If you surround 4 pieces on both sides they are not captured?

[@KOYARTOS]

@@jeffk1722 A = attacker; D = defender This is possible: ADA. D is captured and removed from the board. Neither this: ADDA, nor this: ADDDA, nor this: ADDDDA is possible. What is also possible is what I stated in my original post: > Sorry, I don't know how to illustrate this.

[@JoseSerrano-ct2rf]

The corner escapes represent the King’s escape through either of the four typical entrance/exits from a Viking ring fortification village. If you overlay a topographical map of a Viking ring fortification, the entrance/exits are N, S, E, W, and match perfectly over the Hnefatafl 11x11 table. Sorry, difficult to describe. But, look at aerial images of Viking ring fortifications, it then is pretty clear how the king escapes. Makes sense. The game is basically a simulated siege of a Viking ring fortification. They either get the king or he escapes through the exits in the fortified town.

[@HnefataflModern]

Just to be clear...the Michael Sandeman article I referred to in the opening discussion challenged the widely-accepted notion that playing to the edge (edge escape) was unbalanced.

[@mikefearn5213]

I have now released an App version for iPad and iPhone which can play these games. Based upon your series on edge escape, and incorporating many of the strategies you present in this series. Thank you for your inspiration, I hope together we can inspire more people to play these games. My iPad version 'The Viking Game' in particular can play boards up to 15 x 15 and has the strongest A.I. Player yet developed to play these series of games.

[@adamtorkelson8272]

Thank you so much! I look forward to checking it out!

[@jackbeda521]

Does this still work?

[@MisterMomotaro1996]

Uhh *sigh* Hnefatafl uhh *sigh* *smacks lips*

[@BR5499a]

Fast forward to 5:30.

[@GeorgiosD90]

You are a God among men.

[@goose33]

Ive been playing by myself bc i cant find anyone else to play Finally a month ago my step bro played whos a genius and I was about to bury him 3 games to zero and hubris got me and i slipped up. We are now tied 2 to 2 lol

[@goose33]

@@wsmith580 download the app and we can haha

[@thejackinati2759]

I've never played to escape from the corner, i find it pretty balanced playing to the edge but then i find it hard to find people to play with so cant play very often

[@doomsdayjesusCRO]

Hello! Are King and the white pieces allowed to stand on the 24 black squares (black opponents initial positions)? Kind regards

[@adamtorkelson8272]

Yes

[@dasgregorian]

Question I can't find an answer to: Say there's team 1 and 2, empty slot is 0. There's a situation on the board like this: ...0,1,2,0,2,0... If 1 puts his peace in the 0 between the 2's what happens? Since he's moving between the 2's, he becomes flanked himself, but he's also flanking the first 2. Are both pieces taken simultaneously? or, since 1 is making the move, does he destroy the 2 he's flanking first, therefore there isn't a 2 to flank him? Or can you move between pieces without "being flanked?"

[@HnefataflModern]

A piece is never taken when it moves between two stationary pieces, thereby flanking itself. The method of capture in this game is often described as a hammer and anvil where one piece is stationary and the other moves as a hammer to flank a central piece for capture. So moving between the 2s flanking himself does not result in a lost piece for 1. Only 2 loses a piece since it is flanked by 1.

[@dasgregorian]

Thank you. What about 1_2_0_2_1 If 1 moves in the 0 spot, can they capture both 2s since they're moving to simultaneously flank two directions? Also in my last game with my wife, i managed to wall her in. If the attackers can completely prevent the kings team from making a legal move and have them surrounded on all sides... would this be a draw or an attacker victory?

[@HnefataflModern]

Yes, both 2s are captured.I count it as a draw.

[@argonwheatbelly637]

So, are the corners are virtual thrones from a capturing perspective?

[@HnefataflModern]

Argon Wheatbelly yes

[@paulgibbons2320]

Exactly the same.

[@insideoutface]

Very cool mate, thanks!

[@enigma9306]

I used to have an old set of this, but I have no idea where it went to unfortunately

[@CenturionKenshin]

I just thought, what if we replace one pawn of each attackers to their kings... and only way to remove them would be to surrender each from 4 sides. and it can give some additional variations like white king can be captured by four kings or three kings and edge and etc... or to have one black king. I just think about this game as simulation of political situation at vikings court where different clans got in clash and each clan might have a king... just thoughts...

[@KOYARTOS]

Hi Adam! I have a question. Can a King on the edge of the board next to a corner square be captured by 2 Attackers enclosing him on the other 2 sides? Thank you.

[@HnefataflModern]

Hello! Thanks for your question. I would say no, since the corner squares are supposed to always be safe for the king, and the king should be allowed to move to the corner on the next move. Thanks for your question!

[@timrock5787]

I thought that the squares the black or opposing team start on act as like the throne! Could you clarify? Thanks

[@口口口口-n1c]

got motion sickness by looking at your pen swinging around after 3min

[@FoogieX10]

Lol really?

[@ThaWhiteKnight777]

What if you double stack the same teams pieces on the corners to block the king?

[@adamtorkelson8272]

That would work but it would be tough to execute. It would take up 16 moves to do all 4 corners. Give it a try though.

[@sierra1759]

Can anyone answer this though: what if you double the same color on the corners? Such as, what if two black pieces are on each side of the corners? If the corners act as the color of the piece that's on the outside, with two of the same colors in those spots, would that be a draw then as the king could not escape, and the black pieces cannot be captured?

[@valterspatriks8752]

Sierra175 actually his rules are not correct on this matter. He said that whites can capture blacks if B is sandwiched in the middle of throne and W. The same case is with corners, giving that blacks can’t go in them. So B can be sandwiched in middle of corner (castle) and W.

[@chubaraga8204]

Great job! Id found some gemes on PlayMarket. I'd test it. So I think I'm ready to play with real players on your site 😎

[@diamondmeeple]

I really think there cant be edge escape, the more I analyze is that either the king can escape to the 16 white edge squares.

[@abuzaynmoore1045]

do you think the game would be more balanced if the king cannot take part in captures? me and my friends play as though he can but it seems very unbalanced and who ever is playing as the kings men always seem to win

[@HnefataflModern]

You make an excellent point here. Actually, while I believe this version is balanced among expert level play, the game is seriously flawed due to what you have mentioned, no matter what level of skill is playing. When the king takes part in captures, black cannot place his pieces next to the king as they will always be easily captured. But the problem is that black cannot win the game unless he places his pieces next to the king (black’s stated goal to win the game is to surround the king on four sides). So what black has to do is form an unbroken perimeter around the edge of the board that encloses the king inside it and blocks off the corners. Then just move one piece at a time one space at a time, moving the circle in until he captures a few pieces and is more able to hopefully surround the king on four sides (this is how experts win with black). But the problem with that is that the game is actually over (as a win for black) when the perimeter is completed and it is unnecessary to play on (white resigns at that point). The corners are sealed off and white can only hope to play for a draw (never be surrounded on four sides, which sometimes happens). That conflicts with the stated goal of the game-now instead of black winning by surrounding the king on four sides, he wins by building a perimeter and sealing off the corners. If you play on, it takes a very long time for black to win by surrounding on four sides, making 50% of the game completely pointless, and the game may end in a draw anyway (this version is very drawish). This is a major flaw with this version in my opinion.

[@HnefataflModern]

That is one interpretation of the "Linneaus Rules" (which were originally written in Latin) for the Tafl game of "Tablut" in the 18th century, put forth by John C. Ashton. That interpretation is in dispute by other scholars and has been shown to be extremely unbalanced. A great resource for you to check further would be the Hnefatafl website run by a gentleman named Aage Nielsen (you will need to google it). He has information, statistics, and scholarly discussion about these topics.

[@bashkillszombies]

Learn to pronounce tafl, you fart out of your face when you get to the FL for some reason.

[@HnefataflModern]

You're very welcome!

[@boganery]

thankyou

[@briansmith1633]

We're you having a heart attack while taping? You sound like you were dying.

[@adamtorkelson8272]

I have chronic high blood pressure, even with medication. Thanks for your concern.

[@TheGadler]

You playin' in darkness....

[@ThaRealChuckD]

Not very good at it. But I am trying to learn.

[@bashkillszombies]

Why does every American make a fart noise when they get to the fl in tafl? It's literally table, as presently spoken in numerous European languages. There's no fart noise in it.

[@adamtorkelson8272]

Most Americans I've heard pronounce it "tah-fel" with no fart noise so I have no idea what you're babbling about. And you are dead wrong. The Viking language is closest to Icelandic, which is very different from other "numerous European languages". It is even quite different from modern Norwegian, since it was isolated on an island for so long it maintained much of the original Viking dialect. Therefore, it makes perfect sense to use an Icelandic pronunciation and not a different northern European or American pronunciation, which is exactly what I did in the video.

[@AlexBabcock-hw9iz]

Fart noise? Hmmmm you must fart different in Europe.

[@TheRingDragon52]

'Ums' and 'ers' make your commentary quite boring and repetitious. Script what you are going to say and be more fluent.

[@arcanuke3294]

Sorry but I have to disagree with the statement that this game is balanced. There is only one type of move and both sides have different goals one of which must be easier than the other however slight so a computer (for example alpha zero) will find it trivial to show that with perfect play one side will lose every time via an instructive method.

[@adamtorkelson8272]

If you know that, then you must know which side has the advantage and is "easier than the other". Please state which one it is. If you cannot, then you are just guessing.

[@adamtorkelson8272]

BTW, my assertion that the game is balanced is based on evidence. From the website aagenielsen.dk/hnefataflforum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=18&start=10 A measure for game balance could be: (number of most winning color's wins) divided by (number of least winning color's wins), the number positive if white is more winning, negative if black is more winning. Draws are counted as half wins. Examples: White wins 20 times and black wins 10 times. Balance = +20/10 = +2 (white has twice the chance of winning than black). White wins 20 times and black wins 30 times. Balance = -30/20 = -1.5 (black has 1.5 times the chance of winning than white). White wins 10 times and black wins 10 times, and 20 draws. Balance = 20/20 = 1 (perfect balance). And according to this chart: aagenielsen.dk/tafl_balances.php For Fetlar Hnefatafl (the version in the video) an overall sample size of 1083 games were played between 174 players with a balance rating of +1.41. Among strong players with high ELOs a sample size of 270 games between 24 players yielded a rating of +1.32. Those results easily qualifies the game as being labelled “balanced”.

[@the_snobot]

@@adamtorkelson8272 I'd argue that one side having a 30-40% higher chance of winning than the other puts it outside the realm of "balanced" in a mathematical sense. If the margin was closer to 1:1 then I would agree that it's balanced. But one side clearly has an advantage of about 1/3, by your own numbers. To me this is not balanced, especially not with a sample size that large. A balance rating of 1.01 or 1.02, sure I could accept that being called balanced. But 1.32-1.41? Not so much. Does the game being unbalanced mean it's not fun? Not at all. But your assertion that the game is balanced is contradicted by your evidence.

[@Rich.Staples]

Your presentation style is boring. Its evident you know your stuff. But you lack enthusiasm in your presentation style.