HOI4 - The Problem with Puppets

[@monsieursp00ky44]

As with many things, your idea of RKs eventually getting cores on the occupied land is something seen in mods, specifically RT56, with the decision "Formalize the Reichskomissariats" or some such.

[@carthagegamingstudios]

It sounds like I should start playing mods lol

[@thelandsknecht]

@@carthagegamingstudios It's definitely worth it. Just a few mods and much of what is wrong with the game is fixed.

[@anidiot4243]

I doubt anyone AT ALL would be content with a goverment that actively seeks to exterminate them

[@ryanrg1545]

I like the idea that '56 brings with that decision, I just don't like the fact that the population of the country would go from "We will fight even when our country is down" to "all hail our overlord" with a simple button click I think what would be better would be something to do with compliance, something like Spanish coring mechanics post-civil war.

[@spookyengie735]

@@carthagegamingstudios Honestly alot of my complain of Vanilla hoi4 come from how lacking it feel compare to mod that been out for years. In a way i argue vanilla is having a identity crisis with it new focus tree being just overly mod-style focus tree while the old focus tree just feel empty. They have no consistency.

[@Hoi4withRobin]

I get that the puppets not having cores makes sense historically. But Gameplay wise its shitty because RKs are now way weaker and almost never worth it because you can barely extract any factories.

[@erdood3235]

What does having cores mean?

[@Hoi4withRobin]

@ In your Core Territory you get all the factories, resources and manpower. In Occupied States you get factories, resources and manpower depending on the compliance level. Before RKs had cores, so they got 100% of the factories and gave you 65%(military) and 25% (civilian) of them. Now RKs dont have cores, so they themselves only have access to ≈40% of the factories, while still giving you only 65% of the 40%. So all together you receive only 25% of the Military and 10% of the Civilian Factories of the state when using RKs. While Occupation with Harsh Quotas gives you an instant 50% to both. Or doing Collabs for compliance can give you up to 100%.

[@Balotovi]

Exactly my thought. Which is why I honestly thought that the video would go in the exact opposite direction before clicking on it, being that Italian East Africa and the Reichskommisatiare are just useless. With the AI not exactly using their manpower and production to the fullest, I really don't think there's a reason to use them besides other than roleplay at the moment. So while I agree that realistically puppets just getting better the lower their autonomy gets doesn't make sense, I'm not sure if I would enjoy it gameplay-wise for them to get even worse.

[@matheusdiastelo5373]

@@Balotovi but even Italian East Africa is more useful than the RK, because you free a useless front in Africa and they don’t have a lot of factories anyway, but if you create a RK in America you lost more than half of the factories making zero diference in gameplay

[@Link9058]

@@Hoi4withRobinthey actually have a national spirit that gives more factories to you depending on what type of leader you appoint to them. It is still much less than before though

[@jonaw.2153]

I like this idea. It would make for a nice dilemma. Either go for low autonomy puppets, and use the factories and resources while being able to get less manpower from them, or go for high autonomy puppets, and get more manpower from them while having less of their factories and resources. I could totally see someone playing France, making a decently autonomous Nigerian puppet but keeping other parts of the colonies directly annexed or as integrated puppets to get their resources.

[@justdoitlater9507]

to be fair, as France, the only areas you really need is vietnam for the rubber and tungsten, tunisia/algeria for the steel(you can release algeria, as the blum-violette proposal reannexes them as cores and maybe tahiti for chromium. the other 90% are usually better of as puppets. you won`t really get their industry directley, but once they finish their generic industry focuses they will need ressources in their factories, which they will usually just import from you. you can also get a lot of their manpower via colonial divisions or garrison support.

[@Hextor26]

Another idea I have, specifically for the Dominions of the British Empire, is that they could have a National Spirit called "Statute of Westminster" that gives them extra powers and autonomy compared to other dominion level puppets. These could include the ability to freely declare wars and refuse to be called into one by their master, the ability to create collab governments, not giving their master any of their war score, maybe even the ability to patriate at any time with a 90-day-wait decision, and to avoid capitulating when the UK falls.

[@Hextor26]

I think it'd be cool to see Canada refusing the UK's initial call to arms and waiting a week to join in.

[@Daniel-rh7kh]

RKs are completely useless, they are there solely for the roleplay, apart from that, they are just much worse puppets

[@colonelsmith7757]

Yeah, there is basically no reason to establish RKs as opposed to proper puppets.

[@tenanaciouz]

Arcadia have one purpose actually if you in single player find yourself in a scenario where you haven't taken Britain and went to war with the UK the arcades can help you control resistance and occupied lands and keep from losing guns constantly into resistance which could matter a lot

[@themageofspace5516]

rks shouldnt be useless though that kinda sucks, you should be able to get them to a point of being useful now that should require some investment (like one thing i would like to see is extraction of resources since I'm pretty sure uncored states gives you less resources. it would be nice to see them get rid of the debuff in some form, so they like worse then normel puppets for getting manpower and factories but are used to fuel war effort with materials.

[@teslashark]

They don't even have the joint focus trees like Austria, not that it helps much

[@averagetoasterenjoyer6931]

RK’s have a use now though, they don’t increase the consumer goods debuff for controlling non-core manpower from mefo bills and economy of conquest. They are pretty weak and I would like them to be buffed and given more of a reason, but they aren’t completely useless until you’ve gotten autarky achieved assuming you’re running mefo bills path for some god awful reason

[@ironfire4504]

Although it may be unnecessary and odd, a subordinates loyalty should be separate from the level of autonomy it has. For example a vast amount of the British commonwealth were independent in the start of world war 2, and could have if it wished to declined to join the war without any REAL repercussion. Same thing with South Africa. Such a feature could help make democratic puppets more viable. Fascists able to establish puppets that are still dependent on their master, that Germany / Japan can reap of resources and factory, but are in turn loss 'loyalty', and if it reaches a high number, the subject can declare independence through peaceful or violent means. Maybe it can work if i thought of it more.

[@carthagegamingstudios]

Hey guys, I've legitimately been suprised how well you all have received these videos. Earlier, I made an easy guide to winning Sealion that I forgot to turn comments on for. As such, the KZbin algorithm never did anything with it. Here's a link to that video if you need help beating the Allies as Germany: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eJe8nqyte9F7jsk Also, please let me know what type of content you'd like me to produce. These game mechanic review videos seem to perform pretty well, but I'm open to publishing more how to's and just generic playthroughs.

[@halomastersT10]

Good video and a good suggestion wish we could get this into paradox’s face

[@Kydino]

I still dislike how the new reichkomissariats have been handled in the current patch and all of your later criticisms are things that I wish were in the base game. So far outside of increasing the bonuses you get to decreased daily autonomy and consumer goods there's no reason to not just create normal puppets instead of the RKs. for Example, it's better to do a colab gorvernment in russia instead of the multiple RKs, you get a lot more out of that than random patches of land that never get cores or manpower. Even italian east africa later on basically gets near 100 compliance if you play normaly but the RKs are perpetually stuck hovering at about 25% resistance and 30% compliance, even when you put in local colaborators and don't call them for the war.

[@Balotovi]

Correct me if I'm wrong but does the local collaborator do literally anything or is it just roleplay and flavour? I just thought that maybe have local rulers be good for resistance and compliance and German rulers up factories / production and resources (and possibly lower manpower further in compensation) could be good. But then again those effects for the German rulers are basically what compliance does just instantly so idk if that really would be good or even make a noticeable difference.

[@marioc.8149]

playing as italy, I just use Italian East Africa to feed it states after beating UK/France and use the manpower, since has the non-core manpower 25% national spirit, at least until I form the Roman Empire

[@Rhomfaia]

Assuming that better bonuses for autonomy are put in, a simple increase/decrease autonomy button similar to improve relations would probably be fine, costing pp and imcreasing compliance or resistance respectively

[@kopa2387]

They should add national spirits for taking care of colonies, like if you develop Libya as Italy you can get more pop or consumer goods, etc. Something to incentivize😊

[@antosqa7343]

They should make the same for RK as in mode Rd56. If you create RK and finish a war occupying that territory you can make those RK get cores. Or PDX can just make IEA and RK get cores when compliance reach 70% or smth. It will require the decision to sacrifice guns/manpower/pp etc and to click it multiple times but it will be the worth of investment type of thing

[@simonnachreiner8380]

I like the reichskomissariats plus mod. Most all of them start off with cores but start out with god awful modifiers like -50% surrender limit along with penalties to their units, and production. As they work through their focus tree these modifiers flip into positives with the final focus under industry being "all trains to Berlin" that automatically gives you a massive 80% of their resources as well as a decent chunk of their industry. You can also spend 250 pp a pop to annex and core plenty of European nations once they finish their final political focus which is usually something related to them. Like for example bohemia and Moravia is "mission accomplished" in relation to stabilizing the collapsed government. Poland is "secure germanization" Ukraine is "reichs breadbasket" the caucuses is "reichs refinery" Ignoring the rp implications it's a pretty good system even if it can snowball.

[@alex_zetsu]

I think one problem is that HOIIV is a bit different than CKII and III. You see, in Crusader Kings, when you do a war, it's not always to gain territory for yourself. You can fight for your dynasty. Plus there are a lot of peacetime events and interactions with courtiers. The peacetime events can make a whole game of its own and a war can be waged to make yourself in a better position for it. In contrast in Hearts of Iron, all of peacetime is basically feared to trying to position yourself better for the next war. This is fine for a war game, but if you think about it, there is no reason to deal with the idiotic army management of the AI of a puppet if all of peacetime is trying to be in a good position to wage war/ paint the map.

[@dashua1735]

I agree a lot with your reasonings. And the fact that the communists have more influence. The UK was a poor representative of what the democratic nations could be. Therefore, more incentive to democratic ideologies, along with communism, would be more realistic.

[@justADeni]

I think it makes a lot more sense in the particular case of Italian East Africa, because with the puppet, you at least have supply (since it can't get supplied from Med while at war with UK unless you take Egypt or Gibraltar)

[@АрхивСпутника]

I believe the only reasons for RK in the current patch to exist is to decrease MEFO debuff

[@bigdiccmarty9335]

IRL the Raj raised 5 million volunteers, mostly of 1 "warrior caste" but more non "warrior caste" castes than ever also enlisted The hoi4 modifier is purely there to prevent uk from having 30 million indians in their army, the game just doesnt handle manpower well between the 2 mega nations china just gets all the manpower and is absurd

[@MarcFranzen-e3b]

I think a political power cost, to represent the difficulties and effort in managing another country, and the low legitimacy national spirits would make a lot of sense.

[@sgtrock25]

I definitely agree puppets need to be fixed, both for functionality and RP, there's only like 3 reasons to actually use puppets instead of annexing in HOI: 1. saving manpower by not needing a garrison. 2. avoiding non core MP by conscripting puppet divisions 3. using them as barriers between countries by not calling them into wars. if they dont have cores than their only use is #3, and i guess to prevent mefo bills debuff as germany but it just doesnt matter because at 100% debuff it really isnt that big a deal unless in a competitive MP game. It would make sense that the friendlier the people and government of the puppet are to you (i say this to make a distinction between like a pro german RK government but the people are are norwegian and hate you, vs canada and the UK where both the people and the government support their overlord), the more they want to be an integrated puppet, and eventually cored (or at least a huge compliance and MP bonus, maybe up to 50% of your standard Core MP value), and the more their people and government hate you, the more the want to be a dominion and eventually free. This would have the effect of If you keep a puppet where THEY want to be or better, then they will contribute to the war effort and resistance will go down, vs giving little autonomy to a rebellious puppet, they wont contribute at all to the war, may lend lease your enemies and possibly have a civil war if things get too bad. Think of it like EU4 where rebellious vassals will just sit and protect only their borders and nothing else. I do love the idea of the puppeting system, especially for MP where you can puppet a player instead of instantly kicking them out of the game, especially since ONLY democracies have government in exile. I believe there should be more interaction and dynamic events between master and puppet, maybe in the decision menu where the puppet can attempt to start a revolt, or get more autonomy or become closer to their master, or maybe some covert actions, and the master and do the same, using manpower and equipment to attempt to stomp down on a rebellious puppet or peacefully bring them closer. Also you can easily increase their autonomy by buying resources, using their divisions in war and accepting their lend lease, but maybe a better system in general is needed for managing autonomy.

[@drekkan19]

So there are two fundamental problems: 1) Unless you make the debuffs super duper strong for high autonomy things like the RKs will never work. Because the AI stamps out divisions constantly until it’s completely dry of manpower and guns - and it doesn’t save anything for garrisons. 2) The other issue is “stronger allies” don’t really matter because the AI will create utterly terrible divisions that generally can do more harm than good. That’s why there’s such a rush to push to IP status - because bonuses to the player are worth a lot more than anything for the AI. What you likely really need is a combination of IP imposing maluses on the player (for example a stacking stability/war support penalty for the player - or also requiring garrisons for IPs) and benefits to autonomy (for example civs or factory output to represent improved internal trade).

[@FxTR22]

Each time I conquer Ethiopia as Italy I try to make as many puppets from there as possible, including the bordering states I won to get that juicy military and civs from their focus tree, so basically you get much more powerful releasing Ethiopia in as many puppets as you can than just doing the way the devs intended. Also, NEVER release Ethiopian state when doing so, they're just going to revolt or cause revolt. Also, making a colab in India is way more powerful than puppeting India directly, you bypass the bad modifiers. India with about casual 5 million manpower and potentially more

[@carthagegamingstudios]

Literally just made this point on my most recent video about puppeting Ethiopia

[@FxTR22]

@@carthagegamingstudios that's the first video I saw from you, blaming KZbin algorithm XD

[@carthagegamingstudios]

@@FxTR22 It's working, folks. Haha

[@onboardbasil]

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="180">3:00</a> The British Raj actually had one of the largest number of volunteer forces in its army during WW2. The British occupation was definitely brutal though

[@grey_apache]

You should use the mod RK plus, it allows you to establish RK in every single country, and also gives them paths to stabilize and gain cores

[@teslashark]

The puppet situation in China is especially interesting because Japan can also release a separate puppet, and keep the warlords as separate puppets. Manchu after becoming Qing can turn the Warlords into its puppets but they have higher legitimacy than itself. Sinkiang used to just use the Fascist China tag so when it becomes a puppet of any fascist country, it can absorb the entirety of Communist China, though now it has a new Chagatai tag.

[@bigsanchez2963]

Something I have always disliked about puppets is them creating divisions. The divisions they create are almost always bad and a waste of manpower. I wish there was a better mechanic for creating divisions from puppets.

[@Alex_FRD]

Puppets are just annexing with extra steps (automy degradation).

[@Knight7562]

i never create puppets i just conquered that land for myself not to give it to some idiot that's my land

[@Hextor26]

In a way, every puppet at a colony level or lower should have a sort of resistance and compliance mechanic that would require the master country to send least a small garrison over to them. Perhaps a colony would have a much lower resistance target and much higher compliance growth than a directly occupied state, while an integrated puppet would have something in between.

[@NixonIsTheBest-CatVeteran]

I see AOI on the thumbnail, I prepare to mention the fact that I am developing an AOI focus tree before watching the video.

[@NixonIsTheBest-CatVeteran]

oh and also RK trees but that’s for the future

[@itz_jur0330]

But that could paint allies as the bad guys :(((((((((((

[@bartolopaiva7187]

Im sorry, but Singleplayer is too easy for anyone to complain they want more ways to get powerful, and multiplayers should just adapt to changes that make sense

[@val.5090]

It's a good idea, in a vacuum, in reality it's pointless, it's fruitless to boost up an AI that simply doesn't function, you cannot rely on your allies, you absolutely need to takeover control to get anything resembling efficiency.

[@TheKorbi]

Oh wow good point! I don't play HoI4, but in Vic3 it's pretty much the same issue!

[@Sopmod-py1ee]

Another idea, add a nation with high compliance buff but has no core

[@MrWattu]

Actually, many indians did want to be part of the army. Army got decent pay compared to average indian at the time.

[@jorry1992]

Puppets in general are a mess in hoi4 tbh. The meta is not intuitive and nonsensical. Democracies need to annex and release for example. Japan has only access to 25% of puppets factories?

[@Allen-fe1nq]

The city is called Nanjing not Nanjing Way lol

[@carthagegamingstudios]

lol. I realized that afterwards. I was thinking of Wang JingWei while saying the city name and said both.

[@truwu8177]

This video is my communist manefisto and the art of the deal

[@YugoslavForever]

the thing with Reichskommissariats is, they were never free nor intended to be. they were just occupation governments, to help with the Germanization of the newly-conquered lands. giving them full independence would be like if Germany fully Germanized Austria, removing the seperate "German Austrian" culture... then just released it again

[@sejozwak]

It's just pointless LARP...

[@Ganjalfiltubo]

Do you even know what LARP means? At most it's RP, and god forbids people do a little bit of roleplay in their singleplayer games...

[@flyboymb]

Visualizing a handful of guys acting out HOI4 at their local park.

[@fckdig-y5k]

LARP and RP are used interchangeably in HOI4.

[@fckdig-y5k]

Also, this is not just a single player game

[@jonah5555]

You are wrong about india as it had the largest volunteer army of any nation in ww2

[@carthagegamingstudios]

Well, two things: 1. ) India had/has a MASSIVE population so even if the volunteers made up a very small fraction of the overall population. 2.) I mention in the video that India's cooperation with the British was increased due to them giving their colony more local autonomy BEFORE the war. But you're right, the liberation of Ethiopia was done mostly by Indian troops. That being said, hostility towards the British was still high due to their colonial status.