HomeBiogas Toilet and Digester Review

1,320 gallon biogas digester I just built:
• Pressurizing Methane i...
Honest review of the pros and cons for the HomeBioGas 2.0 system.

[@lux5579]

I just built a 1,320 gallon biogas digester for power generation. kzbin.info/www/bejne/Zoiopnpmf62Epcksi=pqf5FMyQJz--9FQw

[@TobySmith-qd4tm]

An idea for your heater solution, someone below mentioned putting a 4x8 steel plate on the ground, then a layer of foam then the gas plant on top of that, and assuming your greenhouse holds heat relatively well, one thing you could possibly do is have a solar panel and a small battery inside to power a system that would automatically light and extinguish a burner inside the greenhouse powered off of the gas, and on top of the burner you could place a ceramic planter upside down that would turn on to maintain a set range of temperatures

[@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885]

did you get it permitted?

[@tommorlock439]

Part 2 of same advice. Put a piece of sheet metal on the ground. Approximately 4 by 8. Then go buy a piece of pink 2in thick styrofoam insulation. Put it on top. Then put down the waterbed heater. It has its own thermostat. And when warm only uses 1/2 an amp. Per hour. Now you are insulated from the ground. Saving power. And preventing any creepy-crawlies. From tunneling up and putting a hole in your bag in future

[@rucitupua910]

So can we use biogas to run a fridge? And a gas light?

[@rucitupua910]

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[@rucitupua910]

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[@Mike-qo4kp]

​@@rucitupua910 hahaha haha heck no, maybe if 20 people are using the biotoilet daily maybe, you are expecting unrealistic amounts of gas.

[@jeffpender5791]

Can you flush toilet paper on it

[@mountaingator001]

I am 76 years old and I just wanted to say how much I enjoyed seeing your video. I have been a Ham Radio Operator for over 44 years so I too share your excitement with experimenting with new things. With young people like you searching for new ways which sometimes are old ideas that have been forgotten our World 🌎 is in good hands. I know there will be many young and older people that see this and get an inspiration to “PLAY” and then your mission will have started the ball rolling! GOD BLESS YOU ALL 👍🙏❤️🙏 PS Companies like this deserves our help for what they are doing to help people who have limited resources and funds to become more independent whether it is by using this system and/or solar it helps to save our PLANET 🌎!

[@jazzlovesjoni]

I'm so glad you gave this guy his well-deserved kudos! what you said goes for me, too.

[@thomasklatkiewicz9583]

I am wondering if you are not missing a step in the gray water filtration. The Earth ship homes use a sand and gravel filtration bed to remove solid particles and clean the water before they send it to the plants our out side to water outdoor plants. It is done by gravity and placing the bathroom in a higher position to allow for that type of flow.

[@thomasklatkiewicz9583]

The how did step of filtration maybe do some of the stale odor of recycling the water. There is an additional con that comes along with it and that governmental agencies do not want you to mix black water with gray water and they wanted to be put Into a holding tank which in this case would be your bio digester. I realize the two systems are not comparable. Yet I am intrigued by being able to produce gas when prices are skyrocketing for those of us who use natural gas.I am going to be moving from a 70 foot mobile home built in 1972 and remodeled in 1992 To a tiny house of 642 ft.²

[@lux5579]

Your comment really made my day sir. Thank you for the love!

[@sherricarden8208]

Oh my goodness....I have been trying to talk to this company for over a week so thank you for answering all the questions I wish they would have answered! Really appreciate your info!!!!

[@angiladasilva2266]

I’ve been debating this for awhile now and this video makes me feel more comfortable taking the plunge. Thank you for putting this out.

[@tiffany8946]

Lol, taking the plunge.

[@muhamadabdillah4839]

This is good idea

[@johnfitbyfaithnet]

@@tiffany8946 same, haha

[@australianoutback]

Don't forget your plunger

[@thomasjehnkins1986]

INSTEAD look up JEAN PAIN METHODs....WAY superior as it uses co generation....

[@speedymonkey1380]

Awesome review! I very much appreciate your thoughtfulness and thoroughness, Well done. I was looking to use this system for an off-grid setup I'm getting ready to embark on and after your review answering the majority of my questions... it's a no brainer and I can't wait! Thanks!

[@christhamilton42]

Thanks for that. I saw these about a year ago and I have been waiting for someone to do a review. I like your attitude to the planet as well so more strength to your arm fella.

[@frankihauser4126]

Love how you think, young man! Whether your motivation is due to religious convictions or simple practicality, is irrelevant. The fact is that the earth was designed to take care of itself. We just need to get in the groove and work with it.

[@brethemberg5083]

If you take all the leaves around your area and place them around your bag it will keep it warm even in the winter. Composting generates significant heat and has been shown to work even with a snow layer on top.

[@Ho-opono]

I was just about to say the same thing and figured someone else already had the idea hehe alot of folks on youtube will even put the compost pile next to a greenhouse to keep it warm its soo cool!

[@themoss4933]

Awesome video explaining the HomeBiogas model! I wish I had one. I'm actually in the baby stages of designing a portable biodigester that is meant for those living under space constraints (tiny homes, apartments, slums, etc.) so I appreciate your input on this model. It gives me something to think about for my own design.

[@garethbaus5471]

Seems like most apartment buildings would be hooked up to a proper sewer since there is usually a lot of waste, and a lot of people to share the infrastructure costs.

[@Deontjie]

Only problem is when he said he loves efficiency, wasting about a minute saying nothing.

[@thesower6577]

Hi. So how did your biodigester design go?

[@stevenho5623]

Friendly reminder, your kitchen curtain is way too near the biogas stove...

[@Itried20takennames]

Great catch. Agree that set-up is one accidental elbow bump away from starting a kitchen fire.

[@predictiveprogramming3760]

Kitchen fires are a great and efficient way to heat your home in the winter.

[@toddmsmith26]

Im sold. You got me. Great concept for off grid living. This is a game changer for us.

[@klee88029]

What a thorough, informative and helpful review. Thank you 👍

[@J.Cameron.Stuart.Adams.]

One can easily switch one of their LP burners to biogas by replacing the orifice with a wider guage to allow for more oxygen to gas mixture. The biogas burner is not a required add-on to the biogas package. Some users buy a single or dual burner LP camp stove, swap the orifices out and use it to cook on the patio or deck during the summer months. Others have had success using biogas for their hot water tanks. Again this requires some modifications. Rather than messing with the onboard RV water heater, a standalone instant hot water boiler is used either outside or in the shower utilizing a valve to select the between the instant hot water boiler converted for biogas use vs onboard RV lp/electric water heater. When constructing an outdoor shower one must be mindful of the gray water. One simply cannot, despite using organic soap, let the water run off. This gray water still requires treatment. There are many beneficial, simple, and inexpensive means to recycle and/or treat this gray water. Otherwise you'll end up causing a stink and polluting the surrounding soil. There is even the potential of contaminating nearby streams/springs, and yes even a shallow aquifer tapped as drinking water source. Untreated gray water is full of harmful bacteria, skin cells, oils, and traces of human feces. This harmful gray water soup must be cleansed or treated to kill off harmful bacteria and viruses. Using tanks and plants is the most effective and economically feasible option to treat this water before using it for irrigation or other purposes. Others planning to buy their own biogas kit need to prep the ground to ensure the weight of the digester does not cause punctures. Rocks, sticks, and even dried thorns are potential sources of leaks once the digester is fully loaded. The soil will compress exposing the digester to sharp objects just under the surface. Organic matter decaying under the digester will degrade the material. Clear the site and lay a 3 inch layer of sand or pea gravel. Pea gravel will minimize the growth of plant material growing within the containment. Either dig the ground out and line it with heavy duty landscape fabric/weed barrier and fill with sand/pea gravel. Or build a box and line it with the landscape fabric and fill with sand or pea gravel. Do not use tarp fabric as a substitute for landscape fabric as the tarp won't allow water to drain. Cheap landscape fabric/weed barrier will begin to deteriorate under the weight and heat of the digester within just a few years. Cheers!

[@organicdrama]

Lol the grey water is composed of the same things in soil - you do realize that our environment is designed to eat and breakdown the components you mentioned we don’t live in a sterile environment nor should we attempt to -

[@jordanwmerrick]

Can you recommend a good stand alone instant hot water boiler? One possibly for outside?

[@Maria-bd2mm]

@@jordanwmerrick If you still need one I would just ask at Home Depot what they reccomend!

[@NIGHTMARERICA]

So glad to see this. I’m building one for my wife and I. We are building a carbon neutral house that’s self sustaining. Everyone calls me crazy when I try to explain this to them. Love the video.

[@themattaponte]

This is good stuff man! I appreciate the detailed explanations!

[@functionalvanconversion4284]

Awesome demo! Thanks for getting into the details, so you know what to expect:)

[@NicoleeObrien1]

Awesome video and thank! The company should pay you for doing this. I found it more useful than the ones they had!

[@Snyc2030]

I love the bidet add on.

[@jwisdomful]

I’ve been looking for something like this - thank u for the review!

[@MrBugman2525]

Very good presentation and information, what we need now in a looming energy crisis

[@heybuddyguyfriendpal8281]

Right. I’m on it. I found a provider on the island so we are snagging one this year.. thx for vids, good info

[@johnfitbyfaithnet]

How do you like yours?

[@thatchillaxdude]

Just finding out about these things. Thanks for explaining it!

[@darrenmurray861]

I think that this is the sort of technology that should be put in to all homes as they are being built, where a septic tank acts as your reservoir for waste prior to being connected to the sewerage. Making use of our waste in such a way makes absolute sense, especially as burning methane converts it to the lesser greenhouse gas: carbon dioxide plus water.

[@aicram62]

They do have septic tank digester that you can use the gas from it. Don't know why THOSE aren't standard

[@Jkitty7599]

Thanks for the great review! Thinking about getting this for my off grip property!🙏👍

[@wendyharvey1974]

Great video and attitude to life hope all goes well in future

[@davidmcfarlen5385]

Good work man ,great info.

[@offgridvillage]

I just got one and can't wait to set it up.

[@FreedomNation]

When you said you too were in NC I subbed. Great work and video.

[@KatBurnsKASHKA]

thank you for this informative video! I wish I could do this, but with my Ontario temperatures, we could probably only use it for a couple months in the summer. I hope one day they make a version that could go in a basement.

[@mordanistl9869]

Great video I may have just stumbled upon a job offer that puts me on an off grid situation and I’ve been trying to get in a place I can implement this stuff

[@stevendromgool9882]

Really useful guide

[@glennjordan5983]

Looking forward to the follow up video.

[@johnfitbyfaithnet]

Yes thank you for sharing this important information listening from Bangs Texas

[@phillipferriman6168]

Excellent data... thank you for sharing

[@suzanneribas3746]

Great video. I live in Puerto Rico so heat is a year-round thing

[@heybuddyguyfriendpal8281]

Finally got my units and parts...! Mahalo for the info, will be adding a video soon as well!

[@Fatima-fo4bv]

Hey Buddy Guy Friend Pal thank you for the update

[@lux5579]

Wonderful!

[@dieabsolutegluckskuche5174]

How's it going?

[@santiagocresci3539]

Great review. Thanks

[@victor.desantiago.boricua]

Great review! Thanks!

[@Nephilen2030]

Great video keep up the experiences

[@gregorybrennan751]

Your a good man! Very cool review!

[@metaspan]

That toilet is found on all sailing boats, hence the short design to limit/max use of space

[@Maria-bd2mm]

Thanks for sharing, I wondered why it was so short!

[@ronebakuwel5353]

Bravo, thanks for the informative video, very informative.

[@sixforks6543]

So excited to get one!

[@truthseeker5496]

Thank you for your review. I did notice that curtain near your gas burner and stove top is a dangerous fire hazard.

[@winnipegnick]

I was thinking the exact same thing.

[@Innominated1]

The need is the biggest invention. Great invention!

[@southeastfigs5451]

Hey Bro, Have you considered a woodchip/sawdust compost pile for cool weather heat. If you are covering it with a greenhouse anyway then putting a layer of plastic sheeting up against the system and making a compost pile around the system. If you didnt have electricity that is one possible way to maintain heat. I will be testing compost for heat starting this fall. I plan to do a couple of large piles and testing it for heating air in my greenhouse and heating water. I want to create a radiant floor heating with an insulated concrete slab so even in winter you walk in the greenhouse and the floor is warm to the touch compared to outside. Sorry so long a response, I am just very excited about being self sufficient and your biogas video is one of the best reviews Ive seen so far on this system, thank you.

[@tinaanderson7812]

I think it’s terrific that the toilet is low. I’m a specialist in pelvic floor dysfunction and many people of all ages have chronic constipation because the 90 degree sitting posture tightens the muscles of the pelvic floor, crimping off the lower colon. I’m always recommending a s Squatty Potty stool. Squatting low is best.

[@lucygibbons7885]

What about people with mobility issues? Elderly, obese, people with knee injuries etc. I say go for the toilet height, and have a movable stool to raise the feet and improve the posture for defecation, so that people are able to get up again after sitting down on the toilet!

[@OmmerSyssel]

@@lucygibbons7885 if you're too fat for taking a dump in natural position, you certainly have issues 😴

[@lloydfreeman1203]

Very glad for you and your video, thanks

[@TheChadWork2001]

Awesome system!

[@dinadayalan9037]

fantastic. so environment friendly and free cooking gas

[@spudchick317]

Thanks for sharing your setup! I've been excited about the idea of home biogas & kicking around ideas for setting up one of these units. Thinking of putting it in an attached hothouse with a heatsink foundation so it doesn't necessarily have to be located in full sun. The hothouse can also provide heat to the house and help prewarm water for washing. My plan is to use rainwater (cistern--we get a lot of rain here) and use that for flushing, have graywater going out to growing beds but you make some good points about the recycling. I was a bit worried about adulterants in the graywater maybe interfering with the digestion process. Curious about whether standard (eco) toilets can be plumbed to it and standard gas line plumbed off it. We have a lot of cats and expect the corn litter will help feed the digester, as well as any scraps not suitable for composting. It's such an exciting field, and although the concept has been around for years these well-thought-out units seem to be making it accessible for all.

[@garethbaus5471]

It might help if you replaced most of your detergents with a biodegradable soap, and run it through a sand filter prior to using it to flush your toilet to avoid disrupting the methane digestor. Obviously using gray water on your plants isn't the end of the world but reusing it might help prevent your water source from drying up during a drought. Also you should probably treat the liquid that drains from a methane digestor like this the same way you would treat water from your septic tank with a leach field or an aerobic filtration system.

[@spudchick317]

@@garethbaus5471 Thanks. We're on city systems so I am not really familiar w the septic treatment you refer to. The gray water irrigation set up I'm thinking of does involve running it through a gravel bed first which is probably what you're talking about. I'm already trying to use the greenest soaps I can find, and using the minimum necessary to do the job. Trying to get into habits now that will make it easier to adapt to limited (not infinite) resources (water, gas etc).

[@garethbaus5471]

@@spudchick317 the water that comes out of a septic tank is only slightly safer than sewage, and you want to either have a field which you dedicate to processing your waste in which you can not grow food, or you need to run it through a series of tanks with air bubbles to allow the harmful stuff to break down quiker. A sand filter is similar to using a gravel bed, it just uses a finer filtration medium to catch more of the solids.

[@spudchick317]

@@garethbaus5471 right, I just thought the biogas digester was supposed to fully digest so that the fertilizer liquid coming out of it is ready to use, or that was my understanding from reading the product description. Is that not quite accurate?

[@garethbaus5471]

@@spudchick317 it is an exclusively anerobic process, and doesn't have proper separation between the new fluids and the old so if raw sewage goes in whatever comes out will be contaminated with raw sewage. It doesn't make this a bad product, just don't use it as your only form of wastewater treatment.

[@brierobb9879]

Excellent video !

[@lisamanis4336]

Great video, Thanks for sharing ! Now its about 4 years into your system, can you give an update on how things are going with the system or have you chosen another way?

[@GMSTECHLK]

Great project ! Thanks

[@TheTokkie]

thank you, it was very informative!

Cool cheers from Portugal 🇵🇹

[@sarahchappell995]

This was fantastic and so helpful to my husband and I, we’re going to start building our tiny cabin in the mountains of Virginia next year, and we are most definitely going to use biogas AKA “poo gas.”😂

[@samrichards8251]

Be good to hear about the quality of the outdoor unit. Looks like the quality of a decent tent not sure if will last years ?

[@joseargueta8300]

Great video 👍👍

[@chariddawn6663]

I'm on a well too. I won't be using grey water for the toilet. Toilets actually use very little water than what people probably think. Plus I am getting the bidet also and don't want to wash with used water. I'll check out the latest video since this is several years ago.

[@collegesynewave]

Insulating under the base may help too with the greenhouse

[@lux5579]

It would. However, it currently weighs a little over 1.5 tons so I won't be moving at anytime soon

[@DukeOfChirk]

0:32. I seriously thought you said “I was able to cook using my bowel gas system....”! Wait... you did what now? In my own defence, I’ve just woken up

[@wkp4139]

I bought mine this week. for sewer mostly.. did you prep for 3 weeks like some videos show? with cow manure?

[@tommorlock439]

Hello my friend I really enjoyed your video. It was very educational. So I have a suggestion for. I think you should use a waterbed heater. They are large waterproof. They go underneath and you can set it and forget it. I think it would be much safer than the aquarium heater.

[@lux5579]

I might look into that. The only thing is it weighs many tons. I would hope this wouldn't destroy the heater. Plus there's no way I could possibly move it now since its full. I would have to empty it out.

[@bradroon5538]

@@lux5579 there are underfloor heating mats that would be great for supplemental heating. I haven't looked lately, but there used to be 12 Volt mats too. Solar panel - when the sun shines you get heat, self regulating heat that won't get dangerously hot. Enclose and insulate...

[@jocap7993]

If you mounted it on a small trailer, it would be easier to move and you could insulate to keep temperature more even. Good idea and less expensive than some composting toilet.

[@tashurasmith2147]

nice idea and think of how I can I use it at my apartment. 😁😆😅

[@lux5579]

Next one is being built-in

[@IntheStudiowithTess]

Good info. You mentioned, you can just buy the digester, but what do you hook it up to. Probably need the sewer pump.

[@Carperama]

Do they make something to attached to a existing 1000 gallon septic tank in the ground or a air pump tank? Seems like it would be better to figure out how to get gas from a regular aerobic underground septic system.

[@timothinking9855]

When u were naming the efficiency there is one more pro , it produces awesome fertilizer.

[@TheSanctuaryNY]

Did you think of bulding an insulated pad under it and put seed warmer pads between pad and digester to keep it warm? They regulate at perfect temp for bacteria

[@joshandelossantosroa1946]

Thank you for the video, what detergent do yo use to clean the toilet, or wash the dishes to avoid killing the bacterias that make the process?

[@user-mz6qo3ux2z]

Большое спасибо 😊😊😊😊

[@geoyoshinaka5251]

Would love to hear how the homeBiogas unit is doing inside the greenhouse during the winter. Is your container for the recycled shower water also insulated to prevent freezing? BTW mine is expected to ship next April and I shall follow your lead recycling the shower/bath/washer waters. Thanks for the many great ideas and suggestions!

[@lux5579]

Awesome to hear! Love to see the setup. I will be making another video detailing how it functions in the wintertime. It has slowed down tremendously but nothing is freezing. The greenhouse works pretty well.

@@lux5579 can you, please, post a link here?

[@joedoe5738]

The curtain!!🔥😨😰😳😵😲😂😂🤣🤣great system, thanks 👍

[@phd9692]

I have the same system . I am very happy with it however it is not recommended to have the effluent collecting in a bucket. It is fabulous fertilizer when it is only used as a food biodigester but you have to link it to a system ( sewage, sceptic tank or drain field)when your biodigester also processes your toilets. ( bacteria and stuff)

[@winnipegnick]

Hmm, I was wondering if he can he dump it in the forest around him or on the lawn? As long as it's not being poured onto a vegetable garden?

[@OmmerSyssel]

@@winnipegnick where tf do you live with that superficial approach to human waste?

[@Mike-qo4kp]

​@@winnipegnick it's sewage so I have to give a thumbs down to your suggestions.

[@rmbru2k]

Our bodies create methane gas. A fart is actually methane gas and is flammable. Great review! We are excited to put this to work on our own of grid projects. Thanks a bunch.

[@alexalamoureux7312]

Thank you for the review! Does the tank need to be emptied eventually when it fills with slurry or does everything become gas and fertilizer? Do you have to use grey water or can it be connected to the plumbing like a nornal toilet? Thank you!

[@cycloneranger5354]

There is an overflow valve for the water ¨fertilizer" mixture that comes out, 4:25

[@pedroluisIV]

How is it still holding up three years later?

[@brunoschoessler7495]

Awesome 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[@rcasey81]

Super cool

[@Bennie32831]

I'm in a wheelchair and am glad you said you built the box underneath the toilet

[@davidoutdoors74]

How is your digester working haven't seen updated videos lately. My Digesters are not running cause of the cold air.

[@rolandsharp]

thank you so much for sharing your knowledge. Can this gas be used in standard gas hot water systems and gas refrigerators?

[@madaboutvoice]

Hi Lucidus, and thanks for another informative video. "Planning to switch to Hydrogen instead of propane" peaked my interest and I looked for your video on that but found none. Could you please elaborate on that? You're planning to burn H2 instead of Propane? Where are you going to 1) get it from and 2) store it? 3) Same burner as for methane and propane? Thanks.

[@lux5579]

Upcoming vids, still a year out or so. I’ve taken a break

[@gce1493]

This is great! I thought you cannot combine sewage and kitchen waste on biodigesters, bec. most actually show a biodigester exclusively for kitchen wastes and another biodigester for sewage.

[@garethbaus5471]

If sewage goes into the methane digestor you should treat it like the liquid that flows out of a septic tank, and it should not be used to water any vegetables or crops. If you only use food scraps it is usually ok to use to fertilize non riot vegetables.

[@callanrea1]

grass clippings are effective at trapping heat and moisture within thick layers or piles...so cover the biotank in grass clippings and add the green house as well would fix the heat problem

[@eaglefishrver]

Have you tried this? I'm wondering how cold the climate could be for this combination to still be effective.

[@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885]

the heat would be generated from the grass composting - and that can get quite hot indeed. That would essentially be composting the plastic of the biogas tank I think - to keep it warm enough. Might as well just have a compost pile like JOhn Jenkins does for his humanure composting in the winter time. It's supposed to be aerobic bacteria in that case. If the grass heat was NOT aerobic then it would be off gassing methane which is a CO2 equivalent emission.

[@tedijune6759]

LucidusLux; They should pay you for your review! Serious! I’m wondering if I could make something like this system (to replace the bag?) I’m all about the 3 RRRs, and love the idea, just with an already existing container? Also, I’ve done-lived in-sold a lot of trailers. I’m a retired code certified home inspector-renovation guru-house flipper :-) Thank you.

[@89elmonster]

Do you get range anxiety with the gas? Do you get nervous when using gas thinking you won’t have enough for some other more important time? I hope that makes sense.

[@tuvoca825]

Can you use this with a gas heater for keeping a greenhouse toasty in colder climates? Is it enough to keep itself warm and the greenhouse too? That would be cool. What if you run out of gas pressure; will the flame creep back into the bag or do you have a valve that stops flow of the pressure drops too much (preventing explosion)?

[@AllSectorsHearThis]

Could you put it in a insulated trailer with a green house roof for moving without emptying and restarting?

[@echandler673]

When putting in compost into the digester, does it need to be shredded or can you use just lawn clippings, leaves, kitchen scraps?

[@anibaldamiao]

the size of a toe finger is optimal but it just optimizes the process

[@thomasjehnkins1986]

Nice!...Now look up Jean Pain method... uses green wood chips & compost to keep it heated up to temp and uses cogeneration...

[@danielbrown5192]

Cheers for the video man! Could you also add a link in your description to the bidet you bought on amazon. Not only can you earn from the link but I would like to get 1 of them like you have. Cheers!

[@MiKa-bs6rf]

Great system - have you ever thought of insulating the system, so you can use it with colder temperatures?

[@RyanSchumacher]

Would you be able to list the parts that come with the toilet system vs the non toilet system?

[@notagreeable2249]

it's all on the company's website

[@Nattidaddy]

I had a super nice camper I bought when I was 16 it was about an 18 ft long Ford econoline. I gutted it for rebuild but I became addicted to crack and sold it in the process

[@radiorahim861]

Dang that is a pretty player price, and with a toilet. I want an outhouse now. Was originally thinking compost but NVM.

[@johnphillips3540]

Does it ever get full? How often?

[@TheChadWork2001]

Where would you dump the waste if you were to have to move?

[@deanervik]

Bravo!

[@Stevieboyfpv]

I'm wondering if using the grey water from the shower etc causes any reduction in the bacteria as that water contains soaps and products 🤔