Honing a Tiger Cub barrel using a Sunnen pin-hole grinder // Paul Brodie's Shop

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#Triumph #Tigercub #honing #

[@montedaestrada3563]

My first motorcycle (around 1968) was a 200cc Cub. It was a hand me down from my brother. The head was interesting in that it had oversized valves that almost touched, bored and polished ports and a much larger carb than standard. It would see off a 250 Royal Enfield with ease.

[@paulbrodie]

When I get my Cub running I will search for someone with a 250 Royal Enfield!

[@montedaestrada3563]

@@paulbrodie Make sure its the sporty one, a Crusader? :) PS. I suspect the head was modified to grass track racing specs.

[@paulbrodie]

@@montedaestrada3563 I have a square head...

[@montedaestrada3563]

Your comment reminds me of an old joke. A man walks into a butchers shop and says "Do you have a sheeps head?" "No" says the butcher, "Ive always looked like this." :) Im no T20 expert but a bit of research (it was a long time ago) suggests the square head and barrels came in around 1965 with many other improvements. My bike must have been younger than I thought.

[@paulbrodie]

@@montedaestrada3563 Yes, I think the square head came at the very end, and only for two years... '67 / '68?

[@johnbewick6357]

Why the suprise that we in the UK use metric sizing for engine measurements ? Back in the 1920s even the Austin 7 car used metric nuts and bolts on many of the fittings. Anyone in the UK that worked in the auto industry since before the last war will be familliar with both forms of measurement.

[@markfoggy9933]

II don't know where this came up, but Whitworth Spanners are not such a crazy mystery. A/F is across the flats.. so a 9/16 spanner is what it says. goes on a 9/16 nut or bolt head. Whitworh as a standard was by shaft size, So a !" 1/4 shaft has a much bigger spanner size. Similar to US, but the treads are very different. Totally compatible with US sizes, If it's an Imperial it's Imperial spanners do not need to be 'Special'. Some Whitworth Spanners have crazy numbers so is easy to get confused, bigger sized are often quoting 1/16. Metric is metric.

[@paulbrodie]

I have Whitworth wrenches now, and I just try different ones until I have the one that fits. Thanks for your comment.

[@markfoggy9933]

Don't quote me on it, but that Square dimension may be bore and stroke. a classic 125 cylinder on a 2 stroke is often 54x54mm. I'm guessing could be the same idea you'll find it with a bit of lateral examination of the manuals.

[@paulbrodie]

Yes, the bore is 63mm and the stroke is 64mm, so "almost square".

[@markfoggy9933]

@@paulbrodie What I was thinking was maybe there is a model that is 'Square' and that would help you find the Barrels and head that you're looking for.

[@paulbrodie]

@@markfoggy9933 It's all happening fast. I discovered I had a square barrel in my Cub parts, and the square head got shipped to me this morning. The stars are lining up for sure! 🤗

[@davestambaugh7282]

I have had to modify a lot of sunnen hones in my day. So much more fun to watch than do.

[@christianmccollum1028]

Ah! Just in time...get to enjoy my break from under the van and behind the fridge watching some Paul & Mitch productions! Lol

[@gerry343]

Not so odd that bore and stroke are measured in metric, after all, engine capacity has been quoted in 'cc' for a very long time.

[@leslieaustin151]

I was going to say something similar. When I was an apprentice motor mechanic back in the 60s all bore and stroke measurements (here in the UK) were given in mm., on cars bikes and lorries (‘trucks’). Interesting to think that the little Triumph Terrier 150cc (forerunner to the Cub) eventually sired the Cub, then the BSA C15, C25, the B40 (350cc) then the Victor 441cc and the B50 (500cc ‘Gold Star’). Les in UK

[@leslieaustin151]

@Alfred Wedmore Alfred, yes the original Goldie was a pre-unit single, based on the B31/B33 and its forebears via the Empire Star model. But there was a later unit model which also carried the name, based on the Victor scrambler engine and frame.

[@leslieaustin151]

@Alfred Wedmore Yup, I know... BSA (and thus Triumph) was a shambles in the last days of their existence, and a rich and arrogant man’s disgrace to the often brilliant people who worked there, especially in the Comp Shop. But there were B50s sold as Gold Stars in the UK. I didn’t label them so, and I was pretty miffed at the time that such an ‘honourable name’ should be hung on such a bike, but it was. And the B50 was quite a machine in its own right (scrambler and road racer). Ah well, all in the distant past now! Ride safe! Les

[@roberymcgoff1904]

Hey Paul. Got a random question for you. Working on a Royal Enfield 500 top end. They sent me a gasket that looks like 2 pieces of copper with a layer of Teflon type material between. What kind of prep do I need to do to that gasket before installing. Thank You RMM

[@G58]

Paul, I couldn’t watch what you did to those honing stones. I forget precisely how they are made, but the consistency of both the straightness and the fine finish of the working edges are absolutely essential for a parallel honed bore. You would literally have to possess the touch of a pregnant fairy to reproduce the correct even finish. And there’s no really reliable way to measure them. I’m concerned that you’re going to get a series of irregular helical valleys appearing in the surface of the bore, because the fine parallel finish on the stone surface cannot be reproduced. Couldn’t you bore it out on the lathe? It’s really been more than 40 years since I was inducted into the art of honing, but the memories of how the stones were treated has stayed with me. They lived in drawers dedicated to each grade, some were so fine (white) they had to wrapped in grease paper. We did sometimes check the size of stones with a mic and feeler gauges or shims, but only in an emergency when there wasn’t a gauge in that size. There was an oil soaked book with decades of honing lore written by long dead men in the style of the 1930s and ‘40s. I got quite good at it, probably mainly because I grasped the magnitude of getting it wrong. If I remember correctly, a honing stone can never afford to be concave. It can be slightly convex if the part being honed can be run out to the centre of the stone both ends. Blind holes require absolutely parallel stones, and all must be matching. The experimental aero engine shop where this magic went on, had a pristine inspection bay in the middle, where men in white coats possessed the power to scrap any work that failed by a tenth of a thou! It was impossible to get anything past those guys. The checks I made with my two ended gauges were meaningless. Every single part had to pass according to their standards. Of course, temperature was a factor. So the buggers had thermometers! They also never checked anything immediately - because once, one guy on nights one cold winter left his oversized tubes outside and rushed the whole set through inspection! It was like visiting a wizard! I made friends all over the site, but, just like the one welder I trusted, it took a long time to gain the trust of just one inspector. Good luck

[@paulbrodie]

There's quite a bit of material to come out, and stones tend to even up pretty quick on cast iron. I've done quite a bit of honing, and like to believe I have a "feel" for it. These stones are way too coarse for the final finish, and they are the only ones I have, so I will wrap the correct grit of wet n' dry paper around them for the final cross hatch. It's exciting winging it like this!

[@G58]

@@paulbrodie You do seem to win more often than most Paul. I like the wrap idea. Have a good one.

[@delcat8168]

Yes, watching that barrel waggling about made me sea-sick... if it waggles like that, then something isn't right. There is "self aligning" and there is "on the piss"... When we were kids we once showed a mate how to "skim a cylinder head" as a joke, by dragging it down the road behind a motorbike on the end of a bit of rope!!! This honing rather reminded me of that in terms of precision. Just my opinion of course, I don't claim to be right.

[@paulbrodie]

@@delcat8168 Del, my mandrel is homemade, of several pieces, and the welding probably caused a bit of distortion. Meaning, it's not perfectly straight. The barrel is just following the stones and wiper, so it cannot go off centre. Don't worry, it will be fine.

[@rotax636nut5]

As a qualified technician in mechanical engineering and with 50 years experience in automotive engineering specialising in racing engines I can say that I completely agree with you G58, however a buggered hone can often be trued up well enough by honing a chilled cast iron cylinder dry until the stones and guides all wear even, then it's onto a barrel and a bore gage to check see how well the hone works with regard to taper and ovality. I like to watch Paul Brodie's show and it often brings back memories of my teens when I used to tune Cubs for grass track racing, my engines ran 10K + rpm and gave nearly 30 bhp with reliability, but I do sometimes cringe at the things Paul does although he does usually find a way out of the engineering dilemma's he finds himself in. I'm not being critical because Paul is obviously on a learning curve and teaching himself how to do it and one often learns more from a mistake than a success so keep at it Paul and one day you will become a decent engine technician.

[@tjsbbi]

At least you didnt use a flap disc :) seriously I'd run that hone in something else for a bit to knock the irregularities off.

[@adrianarmstrong2851]

Hi Paul, probably a little late for you but I had a 1966 Cub and that had a square head and barrel, these are not the one's you showed on here, I also used to work in a reconditioning shop back in the 70's and rebored plenty of these. sorry but don't have a set to send you but good luck with finding it. Keep up the great work.

[@paulbrodie]

Adrian, I found a square head and barrel, thanks.

[@rysammy]

Just a thought, surface grinder diamond as a tool in the lathe and the hone in the chuck or the diamond in the boring bar and the stones in the vise on the mill? Thanks!

[@paulbrodie]

Obviously, lots of possibilities, thanks.

[@ronaldmattson8373]

Simmons cycles, in California on San Fernando Rd. Dick has a lot of Cubs spares A lot of knowledge

[@paulbrodie]

Thanks. I have everything I ned for this Cub, but I will write that name down.. I guess I can figure out which town they are located in...

[@cliffwright9842]

Hi Paul, Just wondering if that is your Triumph motor bike. My father had one back in 1968 and I remember reading the owners manual that stated(with photos)using just a 1/4 throttle it will cruise at 40 mph. I thought that was a bit funny as a 13 year old as I thought that meant full out would be 160 mph! I think it was a 1966 Tiger Cub 200cc. I recall the engine was quit ticky from the cam followers and it leaked oil all the time. I enjoy all your content, thank you for the brazing lessons!

[@paulbrodie]

Cliff, yes that is my Tiger Cub. I am hoping mine does not leak any oil. Maybe I am delusional.

[@rayfisher2160]

Nice pile of Granite rock.

[@paulbrodie]

Yes, it is...

[@SebaStian-zx5ux]

Hi Paul, can I bore/hon a seat tube on a steel frame? I have a Koga Miyata with old standard 27mm seat tube. I want 27,2mm. Thanks as always.

[@paulbrodie]

Seba, that is a job for an adjustable reamer. Thanks for watching.

[@rkalle66]

Head size vs. barrel size ... mayby on the photos the made the barrel smaller. Measure the relation of the cooling fins on the photo vs. main barrel and compare. My doctor allways said: You may have louses and nevertheless fleas.

[@paulbrodie]

I now have a square head and barrel. The head definitely needs work but I will attend to that. Thanks for watching!

[@thehiddenfortress392]

Paul I sent you the info for a square head in the UK(wales) they have a barrel too. It's on the biggest auction site . I think the comment got taken down ,or went to your spam. Good luck George

[@paulbrodie]

Thanks George. I have located a square head and barrel. Project is moving ahead fast!

[@funone8716]

I have the same Sunnen hone mounted on a stand but no oil pan or associated equipment to handle the oil. I'd love to see some pics of your pan arrangement, and how you have arranged the pump and drain-back plumbing.

[@paulbrodie]

OK, send me an email, and I will email you a couple of photos of my setup...

[@tomtruesdale6901]

I came really really late to the party but is there any chance the term "Square head" refers to Bore and Stroke being the same? I found your channel a week ago and have binge watching but find the chronological order difficult to figure out

[@paulbrodie]

Tom, thanks for showing up to our party! The square head refers more to the shape. It is "sorta" square with well rounded corners, and definitely larger than the oval head it replaced. Watch enough Cub videos, and the difference will be shown. Each video has a date when it was published.

[@richball9576]

A small surface grinder would have been the ticket for getting a perfect dimension on your stones but like always, you did a fantastic job of making it work with the tools at hand.

[@paulbrodie]

I do have a small surface grinder, but I don't think that would be the best tool for getting the stones to size. Thanks for watching!

[@ShotgunAU]

@@paulbrodie I used to work in a hydraulics repair shop back in the late 90's early 00's and we would use your exact method to reduce our stones but we would finish them simply on a flat hand stone. They done take much time in the bore to level out anyway, honing stones have oil in them too btw for anyone who wasn't aware.

[@paulbrodie]

@@ShotgunAU I did not know that honing stones also have oil in them. Thanks.

[@morriswesterik4639]

If you are going to hone it to size and then finish the barrel. Try cleaning the barrel with automatic transmission fluid. It cleans the hone partials out of the cilinder wall nicely

[@SuperAWaC]

You can use a surface grinder to grind stones down with in a pinch. It works well, but creates a dust nightmare, so do it wet.

[@paulbrodie]

I do have a surface grinder, but no coolant hooked up, so I will pass on that. But thanks :)

[@TheMinimized]

Is the Honda engine at 25:52 maybe a hint to a possible future project? Or is it just sitting there as a decoration piece? 🤔

[@paulbrodie]

Someone asked me to store it 15 years ago, never came back. Now it is mine! It's aging gracefully out in the elements...

[@charlesyates6687]

You always talk about mitch but you keep him well hidden . When do we get to see who you are talking about .

[@paulbrodie]

Mitch is shy. Have you not yet figured that out?

[@raymondsmith6504]

Can’t wait to see what you are going to with that Honda Scrambler/Superhawk engine sitting on a rock pile at 25:53!

[@paulbrodie]

Someone asked me to store that motor over 15 years ago, and I haven't seen him since. That makes it mine! Right now I am aging it to get just the right amount of patina. This process can take years I am told.

[@davidwilliamson9162]

The hone machine looks way off u can even feel the out ov shape twisting motion, could you not use a drill press oil stone hone note or spring loaded type

[@paulbrodie]

Honing machine was working fine. The barrel is simply following the stones and wiper blades. I would never use the spring loaded type if possible. Not enough honing pressure.

[@MegaTubescreamer]

haha the subtitles messed up your OIlite and sintered spelling

[@paulbrodie]

They do it every time I am told. Spellcheck annoys me too.

[@montedaestrada3563]

That is an interesting amount of wobble on your honing machine.

[@paulbrodie]

You are correct. Thanks for watching.

[@robertaevans3837]

Look up Bantam Club, the last of the Tiger Cubs. Believe it to be square barrel/head Great videos!

[@crozwayne]

spot on!

[@paulbrodie]

You are correct. The frame design was also much better!

[@chrislee7817]

A mate had a bantam cub, with square cylinder. It was ex post office, I think they were used by the gpo as delivery bikes. I had a bantam and brother a cub, this bantam cub was such an oddity .

[@gman3725]

Excellent video as usual. Thanks.

[@paulbrodie]

Thanks G Man.

[@richardwoods3313]

You get silent block Bush kit from feked off classic bike parts in the UK I've got them in my tiger cub trails bike it does away with the old triumph ones much better and almost maintenance free

[@dennisyoung4631]

Oilite still likes grease/oil, though. Can confirm about the cost of #660 bronze. Bought some a few years ago.

[@johnmartin6050]

Shouldn't the bore have an extra clearance for the expansion of the piston?

[@paulbrodie]

The bore will be .005" larger than the piston.

[@B.A.512]

Wow, just got this tip from a bicycle forum. Love this channel already: Craftmanship, old tools and oldschool metal working etcetera. A couple of years ago I worked on old alignment gearboxes and such, our old way of working gets rarer now, but love to see it here. Thanks!

[@paulbrodie]

Thank you Bart.

[@davidharris5736]

Hi Paul. I have been watching your vids over the past week or so. So glad to have found your gems! Was surprised you left that dent in the frame and painted it, Why did you not fill it with bronze or solder then paint?

[@paulbrodie]

David, which dent are you referring to?

[@prewarfireball]

Why not just buy the proper machine with the proper an-600 fixture? This is crazy. lol

[@rogeriocosta1035]

Paul, did you stop working on the Aermacchi? I remember that the last video was making the fuel tank.

[@paulbrodie]

No I have not stopped, but am waiting for the rear shocks to arrive. I'm hoping they will show up soon :)

[@rogeriocosta1035]

@@paulbrodie Nice! Thanks.

[@joell439]

we're all winging it 👍👍🤣😂🤣👍👍

[@paulbrodie]

That is so true.

[@2WheelsSometimes1]

No no no. You're over there, I'm over here. I did cringe a little when you said you were going to take the grinding stone... to the grinding stone. With your honing machine, couldn't you make the holder position the cylinder so that either the intake or exhaust port is facing up? That way you can still get the oil into the barrel as you're sliding it?

[@paulbrodie]

I fear you are confusing the cylinder barrel with the cylinder head. I was honing the cylinder barrel, and it has no ports. The cylinder head has the ports, and it doesn't get honed the same way..

[@2WheelsSometimes1]

@@paulbrodie Ah, brain fart moment. I was thinking 2 stroke. I don't know why I thought the Tiger was a 2 stroke.

[@billdyke9745]

It is true that the British motorcycle industry used the metric system of measurement when it suited them. Bring back the perch/pole/rod, say I... (All the same, 17 and a half feet)... That was some monstrously complicated honing, Paul. Everybody else uses spring loaded stones in a hand-held drill. But easy ain't the Brodie way. Many thanks, sir. Most enjoyable. I used an adjustable reamer once, some 40 years or so ago to ream the bush, (English word), for the kingpin on the front wheel of a Reliant 3 wheel car. 2 weeks before the steering failed, rolling the car 3 times, (yes, I was counting), to come to rest upside down on the verge on the other side of the road. Car body, glass fibre, completely destroyed, nobody hurt, and a very nice chap who had been driving behind loaded us and our goods into his car and drove us 14 miles back to our starting point. A true gent, so thank him too... After that I stuck to wood butchery. Apart from my '61 BSA B40 which is an overgrown Tiger Cub...

[@paulbrodie]

Good stories. I had a Morris Oxford well up on 2 wheels years ago. I didn't roll it, but it made quite the bang when it came back down onto all four...

[@paulbrodie]

@Alfred Wedmore When I was in school I had the notion that history was a pretty boring subject. I have since learned that, if taught correctly, it can be fascinating. A lot depends on the instructor..

[@billdyke9745]

@Alfred Wedmore I'll quote you, Alfred, nonetheless. My kind of chap. Imbued with history. Thanks for the information, and keep yourself well. 👍

[@stephensarkany3577]

If you are reaming the same size and bore spacing, it may be worth getting a custom reamer with a built in straight long pilot section. Those adjustable creamers are hard to start straight. Also if you have a sunnen hone, get a PL5 or 6 mandrel and you can hone both bores true & straight.

[@Dave.Wilson]

Another very good tutorial there Paul, always learning something from you. Sorry but I don't have a squire barrel and head for a tiger cub. Only a B44, 440cc bottom end.

[@paulbrodie]

Thanks David, I have already located a square head and barrel. Project is moving ahead fast!

[@jimforsyth2.]

Oil lite can't hold loads it can run true but load off cente thay and good for no loads running but heavy load no good

[@jimforsyth2.]

Chinese lol

[@paulbrodie]

OK, I just won't ride the bike hard.

[@gullreefclub]

Due to the loads/stress that are commonly exerted upon swing arm bushing using standard “Oilite Bronze”bushings would probably not be the best choice if you are going to ride your Tiger Cub and especially it is going to be ridden in a race like manner due the very low static and dynamic load ratings of the material. Oilite does however make two other products that would be more suitable for your application and they are “Super Oilite” or “Super Oilite 16” which is similar to the “Super Oilite” bushings material but has been heat treated to a hardness of greater than 50Rc which means it is much more durable bearing/bushing material but means the swing-arm shaft also needs to be heat treated/hardened to prevent it from wearing. I do have a question about your fitting of your Oilite swing-arm bushing since you purchased bushings that were greater in length than required why did you not use the cut off pieces to determine the correct inside diameter of your bushing prior to pressing them into your swing-arm by doing a couple of test fits by machining the I.D. of a cut off piece of your Oilite bushing material to the OD of your swing-arm shaft and then press the test piece into your swing-arm and measure the I.D. of the test bushing and provided the I.D. of the hole in the swing-arm is centered, round, and true you should know the correct size to machine the I.D. of your Oilite bushings prior to pressing it in the swing-arm using simple math. Additionally at www.nskamericas.com/en/technical-tools.html there is a “tool” to help calculate the “close-in and press fits” of Oilite bushings. I mention this because while Oilite recommends that you purchase the correct sized bushing for the job if at all possible they also say machining of Oilite bushings is not a problem as long as the cutting tool is sharp and that they highly recommend Tungsten Carbide cutting tools. The website also says that Oilite bushings (although they call them bearings) can be reamed as long as the cutting tool (reamer) is “dead-sharp,” however to do say that reaming (even with a dead-sharp) “does destroy the porosity (lubricating properties) more than using single point tooling.” Which to me is basically saying that it is definitely a best practice to not ream Oilite bearings (bushings). All this information is available at www.bearing.co.il/OILITE.pdf Regardless of the information above I do have a question instead of using Oilite bearing/bushings and why not order short pieces of the size 660 bronze bushing stock in the size(s) you require from online suppliers such as the several listed below because the prices for “bushing length pieces” are all things considered not that hatefully priced. Before you say but none of the companies listed below will ship to Canada I know that but like the old saying goes there is more than one way to skin a cat or buy something from a company in the US and get it shipped to the Great White North of Canada. This can be accomplished easily enough using a company know as a “Freight Forwarder” If you are not familiar with what a “Freight Forwarder” company is or does simply put they provide you for a small fee of course an address in the country you are ordering from and then they reship your package to you. In your case they would provide you an address in the US that you have your order shipped to and then once they receive your order they reship it to you in Canada. I have used Freight Forwarders in the past when purchasing items that forever reason are not sold in the US say from Japan or are just stupidly expensive if they are sold in the US but are quite reasonable priced in Japan. In any event it might something you might want to look into. As for the companies I had made mention of before that sell online short pieces or cut to order pieces of 660 bronze round/hollow stock bronzebushings.com, McMaster-Carr (mcmaster.com), Morgan Bronze Products (morganbronze.com) National Bronze (nationalbronze.com) Hopefully the book I wrote above is relatively free of typos etc and reads fairly intelligibly because sometimes my brain sees what it thought it told my fingers to type and as a result doesn’t believe what my eyes see, if that makes any sense. Anyway have a great day and a better tomorrow

[@dennisyoung4631]

I got my 660 bronze from McMonster-Carr…

[@paulbrodie]

Thanks Dale. Yes, you did almost write a book! Ok, maybe there are better oilite bushings available, but these were only $4 each, so that is a deal. I will not be riding the bike hard, so I think they will work just fine. Our next episode shows the reaming of the bushings, so you will see how it went. If I order 660 bronze from a US supplier and send it to a freight forwarder (yes, I am familiar with that process..) plus customs duty and tax, it will be hugely expensive, and then I still have to machine the bushings. I hope you have a great day too.

[@tomthompson7400]

Hi Mitch. , and of course Paul , its really coming together now and looking very smart on it too.

[@mitchellnurseproductions]

Hello!

[@tomthompson7400]

@@mitchellnurseproductions This is almost like getting to talk direct to Santa ,,, you do a great job , and your effort and skill is very mutch appreciated , and I know Im not the only one who feels this way , your a crucial if not somewhat elusive member of the overall production that makes these videos as great as they are .

[@mitchellnurseproductions]

@@tomthompson7400 thanks for the kind words, Tom! It’s easy to work with Paul, he’s a natural on the camera and he obviously knows his way around the shop.

[@tomthompson7400]

@@mitchellnurseproductions You make a great team Maybe like Fred and Ginger . or Abbot and Costello , or Laurel and Hardy ... lol

[@thomaslemay8817]

I spent a few years grinding stone to shape when my parents had a business that involved shaping stone. If memory serves I started grinding stone at about age 7 .we used a wet diamond inpragnated saw blade to cut large pieces to rough size before the grinding process was started.

[@1crazypj]

Personally I don't have an issue thinning down Sunnen stones and guides, done it many times to fit smaller cylinders when I didn't have a used set the right size. Normally used a bench grinder for the stone and a file for the guide then a rough bored cylinder or pipe to true them afterwards. Sunnen listed a stone truing cylinder but Ive never actually seen one. I used to teach Machine Shop, 3 week course at MMI, we did so many Harley 883 to 1200 conversions HD stopped supplying pistons and only did cylinder kits ($800 compared to $120 for piston kit) We also did a few Honda CBR600 kits where liners had to be fitted, interesting job as top case and block were one piece at an angle. Set up took far longer than boring 4 cylinders MMI used the cheaper drill mounted Sunnen, very robust and much cheaper than AMMCO (plus Sunnen still supply parts) MMI closed Machine Shop several years ago though as dealers didn't do actual repairs but mainly swap parts, bikes with plated cylinders cant be bored. Many students were amazed they could get cylinders to within 0.0001" (particularly when it was theirs) The class only called for 0.002" but I held people to a higher standard which they eventually were pleased with (rather than skating by on minimal pass grade)

[@paulbrodie]

Good stories. Thanks.

[@johnpublic168]

Use needle bearings works well if put orings at the ends

[@ccbproductsmulti-bendaustr3200]

👍👌cheers Chris

[@paulbrodie]

Hi Chris :)

[@WireWeHere]

An in hand piston for final fit and finish makes it easier to finish with a great fit. Just traveled back in time from June, 2022 while adjusting for a no brodie week. Have a nice vacation, break, and time off.

[@paulbrodie]

We are not on vacation.

[@danburby7936]

THE SQUARE BARRELL WAS DEFINITELY MADE OF ALUMINUM,MY SECOND CUB HAD ONE,I DISCARDED IT IN FAVOR OF A SLEEVE FROM A 650 TRIUMPH AND ENCASED IT WITH SHEET METAL FOR A WARETR COOLED BARRELL.WE HAD TO BORE OUT THE CASES TO GET IT TO FIT,AND WE HAD TO BORE THE HEAD BOLTS ALSO FOR CLEARANCE.WE USED A 650 PISTON AND PUSHED THE BUSHING OUT IN THE ROD FOR THE PIN.IT HAD 250CCS AND WAS A SERIOUS COMPETITOR AGAINST OTHER CUBS,WE RACED IT IN A MICRO MIDGET CAR,AND WON THE MAIN IN FRESNO WESTERN USA CHAMPS IN 1958,ONE OF THE GUYS IN THE RACE WAS MARTY ROBBINS,SECOND PLACE WENT TO A VELOCETTE THAT HAD 350CCS

[@paulbrodie]

I have two square barrels and they are both cast iron. I can tell you have a lot of stories. Thanks for commenting.

[@DanieLeader]

i swear like before i watch Mr paul

[@TheOldaz1]

Good explanation and a simple modification to make something useable. Thanks guys.

[@paulbrodie]

Thank you.

[@montana2strokeracer]

Hi Paul, enjoy your content, always glad to see another upload. Just a comment about your hone, I dont know what the bore is on that bike, but Sunnen makes an adapter called a AN-600 That fits your machine that hones from 2.500 to 6.500 inches. It has 4 stones or 2 stones and 2 scrapers, depending on how you set it up. I have a machine that is pretty much the same as yours. On the smaller bores I use the standard SL mandrels up to the 2.500 inch then switch to the AN-600. Sunnen still has them new but pricey they are. I found a used one a couple years back and it makes honing cylinders easy. The best part is the size is controlled by the feed dial on your machine. That being said, I can appreciate the fabrication aspect of the one you made, it looks very well made and is controlled like the hand operated Sunnen hones, nice idea. I have a small channel that I have started on the 60's and 70's Japanese dirt and racing bikes, I use the Sunnen hone for a lot of ID work, not just cylinders, most of the cylinders I hone are 2 stroke and I have never had any problems catching ports with any of the stone variations I have used. Very handy piece of equipment to have. One more thing, I have had no problems holding the cylinders by hand unless you over do the feed. Thanks again for your videos, I know how much work they can be.

[@paulbrodie]

Thanks Dale. Yes, I know Sunnen would love to sell me some well made, expensive honing equipment. This is basically an experiment to see if I can do a good job with what I have and not spend any money.

[@tirunck]

Metric bore and stroke isn't at all uncommon in english engines: for example Matchless G50 engine has 78 stroke and 90 bore, Triumph Twins have also metric ones with 82 stroke and 72 bore and so on. Thumps up on your videos, I really enjoy them!

[@paulbrodie]

Thank you for watching and commenting.

[@gerrymasterman5766]

Many years ago I saw a cub with a big bore(big bear?) kit. It used an enlarged alloy cylinder to give it a displacement of 250cc. The fins were much larger than the standard Cub cylinder. Must have been early 60's.

[@paulbrodie]

I believe the larger square head was 1966 and 1967.

[@slffan2580]

UPB UK and feked are two decent sites for cub spares here in Birmingham, England. Greystones do more standard bits. Good luck with a square head and barrel! They are like hens teeth here and aint cheap. Pre 65 trials is popular here. Great show Paul. 👍

[@paulbrodie]

Thank you. I believe I have the head and barrel figured out, stay tuned..

[@chrisfournier6144]

Loctite 620, sorta like caulking for a trim carpenter! Great stuff.

[@paulbrodie]

Yes!

[@mikemraz8569]

I’ve sized cylinders on the sunnen hone using rod resizing mandrels, I spent 5 years out of school in a automotive machine shop. When you were honing blocks how many times did you get hung up in the main webs. 😩. You could go to a machine shop and maybe find a wore out set of 500’s to finish the bore. Good video good job 👍

[@paulbrodie]

When I was honing engine blocks we had a 1/2" drill mounted on a rope and pulley system and there was a stop so the hone couldn't go too far and hit other parts of the casting. Is this what you were talking about? Thanks for liking our videos.

[@michaelrosenlof1084]

Fun session Paul, thank you ✅👍

[@roberymcgoff1904]

Years ago someone told me that when you hone a cylinder you always do it from the base. I see you did it from the top of the barrel. Which way is correct. Thanks. RMM

[@paulbrodie]

I honed from the top, and then I honed from the bottom. I don't think it really matters, as long as the bore ends up the same size throughout. The biggest factor probably being "how do I hold this?"

[@Alanbataar]

As always, thank you. I own a Rhodes 7" shaper, and have considered using a diamond dresser in the shaper to make precision flat whet stones. Not that I have a *lot* of use for a precision flat stone, but it would be good nerdy fun to dress the whet stones I use for my Japanese kitchen knives, and to resharpen the carborundum flattening stone (I made the mistake of using it on another carborundum whetstone.)

[@paulbrodie]

Thanks Alan. I don't know much about sharpening stones apart from using a diamond stick, but there probably is a body of knowledge out there somewhere. I'll bet you spend time to sharpen your knives "just so".

[@Alanbataar]

@@paulbrodie Not really, although I have been more fussy about it in the past when I was learning. You should see my pocket knife right now... it's ugly. About once a year, the knives I use most get a proper sharpening, but most of the time, I just strop them with a bit of an old leather belt glued to a plywood block the same size as my stones. The leather has been impregnated with red rouge suspended in beeswax. That will maintain a good edge for quite a long time. The truly dedicated (or truly obsessive) go through different grits of rouge... just for bragging rights, IMHO. I'm so very not "Type A" by any definition, but I do like a sharp knife - I've done quite a bit of catering. RE: info on sharpening, yes, it's definitely available on KZbin or knife forums, and *everybody* has an opinion, it's worse than an oil thread. You can get surprisingly good man-made ceramic whetstones for $15-$25 on Amazon. But it's not worth the trouble if you have knives which are made of stainless steel, especially the softer grades. They just won't get all that sharp. Some of the $$$ German stainless knives will, though. Even modest-priced carbon steel knives will get quite sharp, but you have to cope with rust. (One of my favorites is a $6 vegetable cleaver from the SF Chinatown.) I can send links if you're interested.

[@paulbrodie]

@@Alanbataar I never did get into knives seriously, but I can appreciate one that is well made. I have a friend that makes knives, and we have had some good discussions.

[@ronsampservice3066]

I have one of those SUNNEN fixed hones. Can't remember what model. They work great. You can resize a bore pretty easily as you can apply pressure to the stones and the guides and lock it. Paul, Believe I have the parts sheet that came with it that lists the different stones and guides with part numbers, if you might need copy.

[@paulbrodie]

Thanks Ron. Last time I needed a stone I phoned up Sunnen, told them my requirements, and they supplied me with the exact hone. Pretty easy, but not inexpensive.

[@mikemraz8569]

Good luck with that adj. reamer its a good way to ruin your bushings!

[@paulbrodie]

Thanks for wishing me good luck. Next episode you will see how it turned out...

[@glenpiro313]

Another great episode, thank you. Not too many better feelings than when youre winging something, and youre successful! That big smile on your face at the end is genuine proof.

[@paulbrodie]

Thank you Glen.

[@WireWeHere]

Found an alternative design to Oilite's that had lost their slippiness too quickly when working inside a vacuum chamber. I couldn't recall the brand name of those self lube bushings but I did find the box they arrived in...doh! Self Lube Mold and Die Components company makes many sizes and shapes of bushings with little circular graphite inserts. An interesting item.

[@paulbrodie]

Thanks.

[@ОлександрФедосєєв-ц3х]

Where is the MUFFLER, Paul!) Thanks for a new one excellent video.

[@paulbrodie]

Thank you. The muffler is coming along nicely; you will see next Saturday!

[@ОлександрФедосєєв-ц3х]

@@paulbrodie thank you, Paul. It will be the great next one Saturday.

[@paulbrodie]

@@ОлександрФедосєєв-ц3х From what I have read, the Tiger Cub never had a great exhaust note. I am hoping that my muffler design cures that :)

[@ОлександрФедосєєв-ц3х]

@@paulbrodie I know, that Yours will be much better, that is why we are waiting for the video with a huge interest for "so long". Keep on Mr.Brodie!)

[@fstarockaburns425]

im looking at buying a machine like this )23:36), is it used to grind/hone con rod bushings as well?

[@paulbrodie]

Yes, it can do all that. And do it very well too. Great machines!...

[@fstarockaburns425]

@@paulbrodie cool- i had no idea rod bushings were so touchy. Rebuilding an old perkins for a customer and ill prob hand this over to a shop for now!

[@paulbrodie]

@@fstarockaburns425 Rod bushings are not hard to hone, but getting the size spot on is critical, that's for sure!

[@fstarockaburns425]

@@paulbrodie gotcha- i do have pretty good measuring stuff as i bore my own blocks. The diesel bushing specs are in the single digit thousandths.. thats tight tolerances, good old english chaps! i gues son top of th emachine one needs the insanely prices stone trueing sleeves and mandrels et al? man 1 local dude has just a set of stones and sleeves for 1700!!! thats b4 the machine cost!

[@paulbrodie]

@@fstarockaburns425 I don't spend money on truing sleeves. As I work on a job / project, the stones will true themselves as you go, with a little bit of common sense...

[@Q341-d5j]

Sickkk

[@paulbrodie]

Exactly.

[@blockhead3654]

Supper cool

[@chrisallen9154]

I was taught years ago, by Sam Braxton, that if your crown race is loose you can put some dimples in the steerer tube with a center punch then install the crown race. Works wonderfully.

[@paulbrodie]

That will help, but is not a permanent fix. Neither is loctite, but I think it would last longer in tough conditions.

[@paulbrodie]

@Alfred Wedmore You are correct. It is important to choose the right grade of Loctite.

[@ronhuffman7973]

Like your honing machine, just the right size! Has some features that look like Sunnen may have made it in the states, but I’ve never seen one that small. Thanks for the interesting video!

[@paulbrodie]

I do believe it was Made in the USA.

[@funone8716]

I'd say it's a Sunnen model MA, I have 3 just like it.

[@spassser]

hi did you ever make a recumbent bike ?

[@paulbrodie]

No, I do not recall ever making a recumbent bike.

[@danielboughton3624]

A lot of great information in this one

[@paulbrodie]

Thank you Daniel.

[@jpwesley2471]

8 thou seems like a lot to hone. Normally I bore to with in .003 and hone to correct size. Honing that much I would be concerned about how concentric the bore would be. But I guess it will work if you are careful.

[@paulbrodie]

Yes, it is a bit to hone, but I wanted to do this myself.

[@Alanbataar]

I was thinking the same thing, but I have no experience with honing cylinders.

[@paulbrodie]

@@Alanbataar Cast iron is fairly soft, and a coarse stone with a good supply of honing oil won't take too long..

[@roybartran6756]

what will be your running clearance between the piston and cylinder? if i may ask

[@paulbrodie]

Can you believe the Haynes manual has no clearance specs? I'm told a good rule of thumb is two thou per inch of bore, so that would put it at .005" clearance.

[@roybartran6756]

@@paulbrodie thank you for your response......

[@keithmoore5224]

i remember a250 kit for the cub barrel and head

[@paulbrodie]

Probably fast for a short period of time.

[@jackdanielsbmx]

Brilliant as always

[@paulbrodie]

Thank you Jack B.

[@davidparker3346]

Paul heads up loctite has a 12 month expiration date once opened 24 months if not opened according to their website.I buy small containers and toss them out as opposed to large bottles.

[@paulbrodie]

That's a very smart way for Loctite to do business. My blue Loctite was purchased in 1988 and I know it still works because when I take something apart, it will not just unscrew with my fingers. I have to use a wrench on the nut the entire way.

[@davidparker3346]

@@paulbrodie Thanks, Good to know.

[@crozwayne]

Hi Paul (& Mitch) the square barrel and head cub were the best, the very best cub engine was the last one as fitted to the Bantam cub, this machine was only made for a year or so and it used modified BSA Bantam chassis fitted with the square head and barrel, this engine also had a roller big end and the best of the oil pumps which were changed a lot over the production years, typical Brits, get the customer to do the test riding! all cub barrels were iron, you could get an aluminium barrel with an iron liner and we used to take the capacity out to 250 by boring and stroking these motors. All looks good, cant wait till you get back to the Aermacchi! stay safe, very enjoyable videos

[@paulbrodie]

Thanks. we will be getting back to the Aermacchi race bike fairly soon.

[@crozwayne]

@Alfred Wedmore there used to be a few companies that cast the aluminium cylinders, not sure if they had liners cast in or were they just linered muffs

[@crozwayne]

@Alfred Wedmore is easy enough to make them, how about that then Paul?

[@crozwayne]

@Alfred Wedmore have you checked out laverda motorcycles? They are just plain cast iron liners in an alloy muff, to change them (they are or were listed as a spare) you pop your cylinder into the oven at around 175c they muff just slides down the liners and you then remove them, Bultaco is exactly the same so it does work

[@crozwayne]

@Alfred Wedmore I’m on about turning or milling an alloy muff to go on an iron liner, done this before myself

[@christopherblewer3963]

Hi Paul is that a tiger cub engine and head on the shelves behind you when your filming the homming tool.??.

[@paulbrodie]

Yes, there is an empty Tiger Cub crankcase up on my shelf.

[@christopherblewer3963]

@@paulbrodie is the head not square the one your looking for.??

[@paulbrodie]

@@christopherblewer3963 I found a square head and barrel several months ago...

[@humourless682]

The Cub is an enlarged version of the Terrier which was 150cc, hence the relative fragility of the Cub motor at 200cc. A Cub based trials bike in the UK with all the trick bits on it, is going to cost £15K+, which means the asking price for a sq head in dubious condition is more than £500! (UK ebay 7/11).

[@paulbrodie]

I believe I have located a square head in reasonable condition.

[@humourless682]

@@paulbrodie That's great! Here in the UK finding one would be very difficult. The sq top end will work a lot better. Running very hot is a big problem for early Cubs............ They run very well on 22mm Dell Orto carbs, which in the UK are allowed on P65 trials bikes, as most find it impossible to get Cubs to run properly with an Amal.

[@paulbrodie]

@@humourless682 Well, I am running an Amal, but it will be used on the street, so low speed running is not such an issue.

[@humourless682]

@@paulbrodie I think its always a good idea to avoid Amal, as the lead/zinc alloy they are made from means they wear out very quickly, which will mean poor running at all engine speeds. The 600 series carbs are now made in China and the 900s are produced in India. In the UK the main importer of Amal carbs, charges extra for carbs which can be used with ethanol bearing fuels..........lol

[@paulbrodie]

@@humourless682 I got my Amal from a friend who has Tridents so it was probably made in the 70's, and is still in good condition. I like how it looks on the bike so I am up to the challenge of getting the motor to run well.

[@mrsockyman]

I love how the engine blends in so well with the pile of rocks outside

[@paulbrodie]

Someone left me that engine to store 15 years ago, never came back, so now it is mine.

[@cfloren]

@@paulbrodie Looks like a Honda 305cc from a CB77 or CL77, no?

[@paulbrodie]

@@cfloren I believe it's a Honda Superhawk from the early 60's.

[@cfloren]

@@paulbrodie Yes! CB77 was the model number for the 305cc Superhawk. I have a '65 that I've been tweaking for years. It would be awesome to see you do something with the 305 engine - it is super heavy and overbuilt by modern standards, but it was high revving and had ball bearings (almost) everywhere. Keep up the awesome work and videos, Paul & Mitch!

[@paulbrodie]

@@cfloren Thank you CFloMoTo. That engine is junk. Someone has taken a hacksaw to the cases, and it has been out in the elements for a while now. That's what I'm doing with it... Leaving it out in the elements. It takes very little of my time, really.

[@Stubones999]

Why not use a sacrificial engine and wear down the stones a bit..

[@paulbrodie]

Good point. I do have .008" to hone out, which is quite a bit, so the stones should be well straightened out by then..