Horizon Forbidden West Exemplifies Bad Characterization | Extra Punctuation

[@snowblind9551]

The "ask yourself what the hero would do once they finished saving the world" question is actually a good way of testing whether or not the protagonist is a good character.

[@crisis8v88]

It's a bit like the "but what do they eat" test for determining how fleshed out a community is in an open world game.

[@RichardMNixon]

Doesn't that mean that Elden Ring has even worse characterization though? Do games that don't even try get a free pass?

[@EricDagger]

@@RichardMNixon That might be true if any of the souls games were actually about your character themselves rather than them being a lens to view the world and its inhabitants through. Horizon is explicitly the story about Aloy to the point of her being a "chosen one" character as pointed out in the video. Souls characters are explicitly not special in any way except their eventual success at reaching an ending and even then the worlds mostly just shrug at their actions and just go on doing the same thing they did before with a slightly fresher expiration date.

[@snowblind9551]

​@@RichardMNixon Fromsoft player characters are fully customizable silent protagonists. They're meant to be nothing more than an avatar for the player. Their hobbies are YOUR hobbies, or your OC's hobbies. I wouldn't call Gordon Freeman or Link from Zelda bad protagonists, because they're meant to be blank slates for the player. So yes, games that don't even try DO get a free pass. But then you have characters like Aloy, which is an actual attempt at a fully developed character. Just a bad one.

[@lordanonimmo7699]

@@RichardMNixon The player character in Elden Ring is literally you,when a NPC calls you Maidenless and says you will probably die in obscurity,tells you are free to die in a ditch somewhere or to put your foolish ambitions to rest they are directly speaking to the player. But yes,Elden Ring has better characterization,all the characters actually act and fit into the games setting and have actual personality.

[@Vitromancy]

"If you or I got through a battle like that we would be FUCKING FIZZING" This took me crashing back to one of the most vicerally satisfying subtle touches in a game I've played. In Remnant: From The Ashes, sometimes after a boss fight your character would do this manic/relieved laugh that just felt so RIGHT for the moment.

[@CyberLink70]

Interesting. Are there any videos of that on KZbin?

[@CharlemagneGuy127]

A natural response for anyone that was just in a near-death situation, whether it’s fighting a monster or narrowing being hit by a car because you stepped off the curb at the wrong moment.

[@qm230]

Did the final boss fight for console ever get fixed? Couldn't beat it without specific weapons and game stopped giving me resources to upgrade

[@Selrisitai]

Any videos of that on KZbin?

[@Keestral]

@@CharlemagneGuy127 That's the only part I disagree with, in this analysis. She is a veteran fighter at this point. Why would she be acting panicked anymore when dispatching enemies?

[@Twitchy_McExorcism]

Every time I see a character written as "had no social life, so is total fucking mess when dealing with people," I'm reminded of Disney's interpretation of Rapunzel. She lived in a tower with only her emotionally abusive, gaslighting "mother" for company and turned out a walking ball of sunshine. No clue if either is more realistic than the other, though.

[@chasespringer5823]

They’re both equally realistic. Y’all just don’t like the character. That’s okay but y’all really need to lay the Fuck off critiquing tje writing as bad just Bc it’s not what you wanted

[@FauxFoxPaw]

@@chasespringer5823 You get it lol

[@alex.g7317]

@@chasespringer5823 I guess your right, but a different less antisocial personality would have fit the gameplay a bit more imo

[@jaynedodd5528]

@@chasespringer5823 Why does anyone "need to" back off? That's the whole point of a critique. 🤷‍♀️ By all means, debate it from your perspective and disagree, but trying to silence and censor people isn't okay. Grow up, and maybe go touch some grass. Remember that it's a fucking VIDEO GAME, and disrespecting REAL people over pixels is.. Just not a vibe, babes. 😬

[@firepenguin38]

@@jaynedodd5528 lol

[@GutsOfRivia]

I think agent 47 is actually an amusing character when they kinda play with the stoic protagonist angle and they have flashes of tounge in cheek self awareness when he makes murder or killing related puns while disgused in that monotone voice . Is he a compelling character? No. But he is amusing.

[@randomguy6679]

Master Chief from Halo 2, and to an extent Infinite, reminds me of that too

[@courier6960]

I actually find 47 to be an incredibly compelling character from a narrative standpoint (and the series wasn’t super tongue and cheek about both stoicness until recently), and the whole stoicness of his character actually has a reason for existing unlike most characters where’s it’s mainly there because of edge. Given his incredibly screwed up childhood (or lack thereof) and advanced genetic manipulation he’s effectively not even human, and his body language often conveys this perfectly. Whenever he blends in to his surroundings you can see him change his posture to be more stilted and bent, because he’s the perfect psychopath always trying to play the role of the imperfect empath/normal person. Gameplay wise 47 and the Hitman series is almost entirely unique as well, normally you are the blatant sheep around perceptive wolves in stealth games (weaker, outnumbered, keeping out of plain sight); but in the Hitman series the script is flipped, you are the unsuspecting Wolf amount the inperceptive sheep. You aren’t hiding from the people, your hiding AMONG them.

[@mattevans4377]

I was going to say Doom guy, but this and other suggestions work too.

[@virtualcynical8515]

47 is arguably the most Stoic Protagonist of Any Game. That's what makes him great.

[@Uhshawdude]

His stoicism is also funny because it contrasts against the hilarious situations you can put him in. You can coolly line up a shot on your target from 8 blocks away and be gone before they even know you were there, or you can run in dressed as a clown, knock out every guard in sight with a can of coke, and then explode your target with a rubber duck. All while 47 maintains his deadly serious, grim expression. In contrast, a stoic character in a world that takes itself too seriously can easily become incredibly boring.

[@Exospray]

Sounds like a clash between the demands of Aloy as the player character of a single player open world game and Aloy the character in the story. I've only played a bit of the first game but it does seem like the solo open world gameplay aligned better Aloy the wandering outsider than Aloy the leader of a mission to save the world.

[@BingFox]

Makes me understand more and more why Nintendo refuses to give Link actual dialogue. Can you imagine Breath of the Wild with Aloy's constant talking?

[@brycebitetti1402]

@@BingFox Yeah. I was a big advocate for Link getting a voice until I was hit with the one-two punch of Breath of the Wild's awkward dub and Aloy's inability to shut up. Though I wouldn't be opposed to a single line at the end of the game or something, kind of like what they did with Samus in Metroid Dread.

[@Canadamus_Prime]

@@BingFox Makes you appreciate silent protagonists, doesn't it?

[@zyonhenderson67]

I think you nailed it. I acutally like aloy as a wanderer. Discovering secrets of the world and taking on cauldrons and tallnecks is where she shines. On the flip side, her character needs a ton of work as it feels like Aloy fits into to WORLD and not the STORY if that makes sense

[@Canadamus_Prime]

@@zyonhenderson67 I've only played a little bit of the first game, just after being sent on the overall quest, but it seems to me that Aloy better fits into the narrative of the first game than the second.

[@judaihyuga]

The biggest problem with the defense of "she was raised as an outcast" is that her arc in the last game was about overcoming that. Aloy did not fight Hades alone. She did not solve the puzzle of her origin alone. She had Teersa and Varl and Erend and Sona and Sylens who helped her and accepted her and fought with her. And that's just a handful of the allies/friends she made. By games end, she had people readily following her into battle against Hades to emphasize that she's not alone anymore. The scene that left me concerned early on, was when she decided she wanted to get through the gate that was shut, not because of superstition or religious fears, but because there was a sensitive peace talk happening on the other side that everyone needed to go smoothly to avoid a pointless war. Rather than try to respect the situation or act in any way like a reasonable or responsible adult, Aloy just starts yelling to be let through in the manner of a 5 year old that just got told she couldn't have any ice cream. Nothing about that scene painted her as a tough, independent or capable young woman that gets shit done, it painted her as petulant child that doesn't like being told 'no'. I still haven't picked the game back up. I don't know if ever will, to be honest.

[@Sorain1]

I hate character development resets. No more effective way to make me stop caring about something than if your follow up disregards the development I liked in the first entry.(Or earlier entries.)

[@ArcaneAzmadi]

I think it might just be a case of nature over nurture; simply that regardless of how she grew up or what she's been through, at heart Aloy is just naturally an unpleasant, selfish and rather dim person.

[@reinirgi3376]

You summed up exactly what I felt playing the early parts of HFW. I fucking hated how narcissistic she was portrayed that it instantly destroyed any love I had for her character from the first game.

[@alex1stamford779]

I don't quite see the issue here: she was not only raised as an outcast, she was betrayed by the very people who claimed to relate to her due to common tribality, with one exception. And even that exception ended up dying in a way which makes her feel responsible. Even then she tried to make connections with Sylens and she got heartbroken. People nowadays start hating entire genders on one breakup and Aloy is expected to exercise utmost humility despite all the setbacks. Very absurd. Now add onto the fact that she is a lot technologically advanced than her peers, has a huge responsibility on her shoulders. In such a scenario, I don't quite see why it would be more natural for her to have a deferential attitude. In fact, people who are quite talented in one aspect or another are usually quite arrogant and introverted to the point we *identify* extreme talentedness with possible introversion. That being said, this doesn't mean she doesn't at all improved in her personality. In HZD, she wasn't at all fond of having or relying on even a single ally. In HFW, we have a whole base where everyone is working in their own capacity to bring about Aloy's goals. This happened because Aloy accepted and appreciated the help she is getting. She can't completely undo the introverted upbringing she had; that's ingrained in her at this point. But what she can do, and she does, is accept and appreciate the help she is getting. Finally, for the Meridian Gate thing, dude... that was at the start of the game. She hasn't quite yet dealt with the political nuances of the world as she does in HFW; in HZD, all the politics just left her stranded alone and betrayed, so I can quite see why she initially acted as a petulant child. But later, we see her become matured: She even helped Zo regenerate the God-machines even though she was completely at-odds with the village's deification of the machines. I would say give the game a try, it becomes quite nuanced.

[@judaihyuga]

@@alex1stamford779 She wasn't *in* a relationship with Sylens and at no point did he ever lead her to believe that his goals were altruistic. He made it very clear at every turn that he had his own agenda. He was an *ally* not a friend. That doesn't in any way give Aloy justification to push away all of the *friends* she did make. What's more the biggest reason Aloy seems so capable is because she has a focus which gives her an advantage that other Nora lack. Which she herself should be aware of. Varl even expresses a willingness *very* early on to learn how to use the focus but because he didn't pick it up fast enough, something she had years to figure out, she leaves him behind. Furthermore Aloy has been nearly killed in the past and knows she's not invulnerable. If she cares as much as she thinks she does about saving the world, getting help from people that have already earned her trust should have been the first thing she did. Again, she did not defeat Hades *alone* . The games narrative demands that you completely ignore all of Aloy's growth from the first game just to make relearn everything she already learned. Maybe the later parts of the game are good, but what I've played has completely ruined any interest I had in the game. I played through too many hours of Aloy acting worse than she did at the beginning of the first game, and all it did is make her look a twit that never learns. This is *not* the Aloy from the end of Zero Dawn continuing her growth and as such, I have no interest in her. If the game can't tell it's story without regressing it's character, it's not a story worth hearing.

[@ApetureTestSubject]

Honestly, the idea of an Aloy who is genuinely socially awkward and incredibly excitable at the slightest bit of social contact sounds like a genuinely fun protagonist. Like Tarzan crossed with Alphys from Undertale. She could be quiet and awkward when they're talking about something social or unspoken that she just doesn't get. Then you get her talking about hunting Robo-Dinosaurs or some other hobby and you'd struggle to get her to shut up, but she's still immensely skilled and focused in the field. This could also explain why, maybe, she does all the dangerous stuff herself. Because she refuses to inconvenience or endanger these people she is so desperate to call her friends. This could then lead to a character arc, where she learns not to be so reckless. To trust that her friends are there for her. To let them take the risks sometimes, so as to not to put the world at risk with her safety.

[@roonkolos]

Didn't the second game tackle that second half?

[@zeehero7280]

Yeah actual writers can make that work. and thats also a type of character very relateable to myself. the socially awkward type who doesn't know what to talk about if it's not a subject theyre into.

[@roonkolos]

@@zeehero7280 they made the social awkwardness work work the first game. Literally was a main part of it in the first third and only a bit lesser so in the second third

[@ryancbarrett96]

They already have that character in the game. Her science nerd friend from that awful Ted Talk group.

[@siddbastard]

you're too passioned and creative, please go away

[@michelvanderlinden8363]

I love the Extra Punctuation series. It still holds Yahtzee's brand of comedy, but he's allowing himself to actually go indepth on WHY things make no sense or WHY something is poorly written. Loving the effort you're putting into all of this man!

[@Alphabunsquad]

It’s funny because the videos aren’t really any longer than the zero punctuation ones. Maybe a couple minutes on average. But him just slowing down his sentences seems to let him get through so many more ideas. Obviously the difference is that the format is different, it’s a deep dive with in one subject opposed to covering every aspect of a game he’s played but still it gives off the effect of him slowing down makes some how speeds the video up.

[@GallowglassVT]

General rule for writing characters: stoic can very easily become another word for emotionally constipated/boring. Also,why do so few MCs have a sense of humour? Not the Marvel style sense of humour where every other line is a quip or "lovably relatable or awkward", but like, a regular sense of humour?

[@TheTriforceDragon]

For a good stoic character with a sense of humor and who knows to open up at times, Batman, to be more specific, Batman from the Batman: The Animated Series and Justice League. Stoic, brooding, but also able to make quips at times ("Mine are bigger than yours") opens up to his teammates over time and is also understanding and compasionate when it is needed (The scene with Ace for instance).

[@DJL3G3ND]

@@TheTriforceDragon kinda reminds me of Caleb from Blood in a way, maybe doesnt perfectly fit these examples but hes probably my favourite boomer shooter character, always being either edgy and badass or funny and trying to be cool. Blood obviously isnt too story based but for that type of game he works great

[@nasigil5928]

Geralt from Witcher, Nathan from Uncharted, Zagreus from Hades. I love them because they have a very good sense of humor and I just generally enjoy hearing them talking.

[@jesustyronechrist2330]

Most writers struggle with understanding that they CAN and SHOULD show the character in everything they say and do. Take Ezio vs. Eivor from Assassin's Creed: Both are stoic and brooding yet have a sense of humour and light heartedness. But only Ezio is a character. Ezio has interests, he's a womanizer and you get hints of that. He's poking fun of his friends and responds to comments about him with sarcasm. Through all of AC Valhalla, Eivor doesn't explicit any interests. He doesn't respond to comments about him/her in any other way than threatening to bash their skull in and drinking their blood. I mean sure, this is "The viking response", but it's generic and not Eivor. Eivor isn't actually a generic viking. He/She is more relaxed and reserved and likes poetry. Honestly the viking bloodlust and battle rage seems almost out-of-character and doesn't fit. But the only times we get this Eivor who likes poetry is from the rock stacking and flyting mini games. And the only humor we get from him/her is some generic, slightly sarcastic comment that nobody awknowledges....

[@MrCrownedClown]

But marvel is a good example badly written and quiping is still much more relatable and fun than stoic and okay/badly written.

[@MrAhriman42]

I don't for one godsdamned moment believe that Aloy would play a tactical miniatures board game.

[@eventua8474]

Yeah, I love this series and I enjoyed playing Machine Strike but that's coz I'm an easily bored nerd who likes turn based strategy games. The first game only made the main story "urgent"/"time sensitive" towards the end, so it sort of made sense that Aloy would take a lot more time - free to roam and wander the world for the first time in her life - just like... exploring and testing herself and helping strangers find lost family heirlooms or whatever. But in Forbidden West we're constantly reminded of how urgent her mission is and how Aloy is convinced only she can do everything and she must be stoic and heroic and shouldn't linger so her friends don't get hurt, which... personally didn't bother me, except the game has *way more optional content* than the first game and so much more of it is totally irrelevant. Why is Aloy stopping to play post-apocalyptic chess? Why is she getting into unnecessary punch ups in little arenas? Why is she risking her life to race people? (To clarify, yes there are generally in-story justifications, but I couldn't help but thinking "this feels out of character" for a lot of the side content, whereas I rarely felt that playing the first game).

[@wordpyro]

And Geralt would not have played cards but here we are...

[@alex1stamford779]

Because...? She's a tech-nerd... remember the scene where she started nerding about electronics with that inventor dude. Quite a lot of tech-nerds are into board games like chess or something. Just because she spends time in the wilds doesn't mean she doesn't have an inclination for board games.

[@MrAhriman42]

@@alex1stamford779 because it has nothing to do with Saving The World.

[@alex1stamford779]

@@MrAhriman42 Yes... which is why the miniatures aren't part of the main quest? You can complete the entire game without playing a single Shrike game after the first tutorials. Game characters are allowed to have hobbies you know? A lot of "Collect this X times" has nothing to do with saving the world but it is still a game mechanic because players might like to do it, and it is narratively-justifiable as a hobby of the character. Not everything in the base game is supposed to be only for Saving the World. More importantly games like Shrike, Gwent, or Orlog aren't there *because* the character is into it, but because it is a cultural component of the fictional world and adds a lot of immersion into it. It shows that the people and lore aren't there for just your sake, but there is a interconnected cultural component, which you can either partake in or not.

[@bottomlefto]

"stoic, unflappable, waiting for the boss to finish monologuing" my mind immediately snapped to Jack from the latest final fantasy game, where he would constantly interrupt bosses and even his own team mates when trying to exposition dump or just say things that don't contribute to "killing chaos" and it kinda works despite the cheesiness because it's consistent with how jack is portrayed. he doesnt want to kill chaos to save the world, he's just compelled to kill chaos for the sake of killing chaos. so if something is being said or done that doesnt help that goal, he promptly shuts it down.

[@dralakba-dusk31]

man i want to play this so bad hahahah, sounds so fun :3

[@plinfan6541]

One of the many proves why Jack is unironicly one of the best Protags of the last year.

[@vincentmuyo]

Of course that's been brought up as really annoying and bland in at least one review so it might be a matter of taste there. A taste for bland one-dimensional characters.

[@janematthews9087]

@@dralakba-dusk31 What's your opinion on Nioh? Because FF Jack adventures is just Nioh, but with 4 other people, and they won't shut up. Also the annoying lootgrind of Nioh. Also the story is painfully generic, with only Jack interrupts being the only highlight of any cutscenes. TLDR - The game is 4player Nioh with FF15 level of Bro Dialogues.

[@Oblivion9873]

Can we please talk about how fucking stupid it is to name a character after an abstract concept btw.

[@Gyrant]

Now I can't stop thinking about how much more I'd like "excited puppy dog who's very friendly but with poor social skills" Aloy over "Stupid and dependent on others for plot exposition while also acting arrogant and bored with people" Aloy

[@Dracinard]

That just sounds like a genuinely fun character! Even fits with the gameplay - somebody who's a bit too eager to please probably would blow off saving the world to go fetch their new friend a stegosaurus scale.

[@saintallison]

Agreed! Ashly Burch is very capable of that too :D

[@priceyyeti4058]

@@Dracinard "I got you this robot part! I killed a dinosaur for it!" "...WHY?! You're the literal hope for humanity! Why did you risk your life for this?!" "You don't like it? I'm sorry... Guess that means I have to try harder then." "WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?!"

[@NoConsequenc3]

@@priceyyeti4058 very steven universe tbh, it's a good dynamic

[@gamepapa1211]

The sad part was the first game had poised Aloy to be that very same "excited puppy seeing the world for the first time" but didn't have the guts to pull it through because...because why? Women in video games must be as grimdark as Lara Croft? Y'all do know Bayonetta, Misako, and Kyoko exists, right?

[@BenHeckHacks]

Not just Aloy - every character in this game crams their dialog with pregnant pauses. It's not a play. It's a game. GET ON WITH IT!

[@dynomar11]

I hate skipping dialogue, but fucking horizon made me skip skip skippity skip

[@V0idedOut-E33]

remember when Borat did that kind of shit for some reason? Pauses after every joke so that the audience can laugh? It makes Borat akward to watch and kind of stilted after the fact. Borat came out in 2006, it's been 16 years since Borat.

[@coldReactive]

Yes, get on with it.

[@TheDemocrab]

The only...two...people they could...get to VA during...the beta phase...were Chr..istopher Walken and William...Shatner

[@SavageGreywolf]

@@coldReactive Oh I am enjoying this scene

[@enigmaodell6806]

The "what do they do after saving the world" gives me a great idea. Have an action adventure game where the main character explains their desire to retire from violent work. Then make a sequel that's like stardew valley.

[@enigmaodell6806]

@@kabeltelevizio my brother plays R6 Siege and stardew valley. Plus, I do this as a hobby, not a buisness.

[@robertbernard7844]

@@kabeltelevizio And you didn't remember that Doom Eternal and Animal Crossing New Horizons practically launched next to each other, thus spamming the memes because...

[@thatjeff7550]

You know, that might actually make a cool intro. You start off battling a big boss monster from the previous game (make it the combat tutorial like God of War did) and after you're done laying a smackdown on what is supposed to be a 'hard' boss, the MC goes, "Damn! I'm sure glad my days of saving the world is over. I think I might become a farmer or something less stressful..." and then you have a fade to black moment where you come back as the MC in a cheesy little farm house and you do cheesy little Harvest Moon crap and the player thinks, "What the hell...." but before they can say, "This sucks," and turn off the game, a new big bad boss comes in and wrecks your farm and kills your village and MC is turns into a mega-Chad who is out for blood. Thus starts the REAL game.

[@officechairpotato]

In Wildermyth, it's a generational RPG. Hero's get old and retire while giving an XP boost to the next generation you've recruited along the way by picking which one is their apprentice, and often they end up retiring by the end of a campaign too. Their form of retirement is decided by the choices you've made while playing as them. It also has gameplay implications. One of them for instance has your character fascinated by a smithy and you have the choice to ask to join and learn the craft later on, which reduces your retirement age by 5, but gives the blacksmithing retirement ending. Some of the retirements are bitter sweet. Like there's an event where you can catch a sighting of a beautiful merperson in the woods and if you fail the roll to catch it and don't override the ending, your hero spends their retirement searching for them and failing for the rest of their life. And so on. If you've got two heros in love with eachother but they haven't progressed to the final love stage, often it's "Spent time with X, and eventually married" and so on. Some story elements include a retirement like "Despite receiving his horrifying monster face from saving the world, ended up shunned by society, and remained bitter at the ungrateful villagers for many years, eventually turning to researching dark magics. Having learned of a dangerous artifact in a long-forgotten catacomb, they entered, and were never seen again." and so on. It's a great game. (And as a fitting end to each characters story, if they die in combat, you get the choice to cripple them and reduce their combat strength and retirement age, or to have them go down in a blaze of glory with a devestating kamikaze attack. Often, narratively and mechanically, the latter is a great choice).

[@elchico9227]

Not a videogame , but a think thats the plot of vinland saga

[@nawf4372]

Actually, having Aloy make a kind of guild that deals with old world stuff would make a really good jumping off point for a sequel. She was already a member of the hunter's guild in the first game, so she could use those connections to jump start this. Then have the new main character be the excited fanboy (or girl) who joins to meet their hero and make a difference in the world. And all the side characters are really stoked to be a part of this and are kind of off putting to people don't hunt dinobots. And they all make Aloy really uncomfortable because she's not used to people this energetically social. Or if they thought that be too annoying, make the main character the friend of that excited fanboy. And there fanboy friend dies a few hours into the game. So, there is friction between the rest of the guild and Aloy in particular because the MC's friend died following them, but they still work with the guild because it was the wish of their friend and the MC slowly comes to realize it is all really the best thing for the world.

[@lel1103]

It was interesting how TheGamer claimed that because Horizon Forbidden West was "heavily praised by fans and critics alike, so there's no doubting the quality." When all this means is it's overrated like the last game. This makes sense yeah?

[@roonkolos]

@@lel1103 would Elden Ring & New Vegas coubt since those are also universally praised or is that when it suddenly changes

[@zeehero7280]

@@roonkolos Elden ring was trashed by the same outlets calling horizon good. never ever trust "game journalists" you want reviews look at user reviews. I have played a lot of elden ring and it deserves at least most of that praise.

[@GMP1isReal]

I'm really glad Yahtzee is the type of critic that actually comes up with suggestions and ideas to improve the game so I can actually see what he's going for.

[@MichaelPohoreski]

Indeed. A sign of a _good_ critic is they use _constructive_ criticism to show: * What is a problem, * Why it is a problem, and more importantly * How to fix it. Someone pointing out problems with no solution(s) is just whining and complaining. Mature creators will listen and take the feedback to heart. Insecure/immature creators will blame the fans pull the “ist/ic” card calling them sexist / racist / misogynistic / transphobic treating every feedback, even if good, as a personal attack.

[@NetConsole]

Only when he knows what he is talking about. He has played a lot of games over the years he made little to know effort to actually understand the gameplay process of. This is why I like Extra far more than Zero, because here, he actually knows what he is talking about all the time.

[@NoConsequenc3]

@@MichaelPohoreski yeah as someone who definitely sees bigoted shit in games, just calling it bigot shit doesn't help fix it. We need to outline why it's bad for the game and how it could be better.

[@masterchief8637]

@@NetConsole he did mention in an episode that zero isn't exactly designed for good reviews. It's more in line with things like master chef, where we aren't there for good lessons but to point and laugh at mistakes. That being said, I enjoy both zero and extra equally.

[@averywhitaker3513]

Unfortunately, the mark of good criticism is deconstructing, reconstructing, and improving the vision of the maker. That goes for anything, but you can really see the contrast with this video

[@The_Viktor_Reznov]

4:58 - I cannot stress it enough how much I appreciate with how much class and seriousness "fucked" was pronounced with. Beautiful and hilarious.

[@jordanj809]

That’s something that stuck me as weird towards the end of the first game. Aloy is super important but constantly putting herself in moral danger doing that other people can also do. This puts the gameplay and story at odds with each other. This sort of thing lends itself more to JRPG style where it’s a group of 4 people but if the main character dies, everyone dies. The current gameplay model makes Aloy look selfish and arrogant

[@DJL3G3ND]

reminds me of halo 5 (just a random example of a game Ive played with this) and all 4 characters including the player were downed but still alive, but as soon as theyre all downed they all just drop dead because no one can revive anyone at that point

[@grmp1992]

Its because that's literally the point of Aloy's character arc, she's an outcast and doesn't want anybody's help in the beginning but in the end, she learned that she can't do things all on her own so she finally accepted her companions, although she does feel way too important though that they would easily be dead without her, I hope their way of fixing it in the 3rd game would be making her allies more competent kinda like sylens instead of nerfing her to make them all better

[@eleternauta2640]

Final Fantasy XIII be like: Lightning *dies* Team: Don't worry we can use a phoe... Game: GAME OVER

[@eff-vl5uj]

@@grmp1992 "she's an outcast and doesn't want anybody's help in the beginning but in the end, she learned that she can't do things all on her own so she finally accepted her companions" wasn't that her character arc in the first game ?

[@danc1513]

@@eff-vl5uj Not really, she does rally people for a battle, but she's still essentially going solo the whole way. Forbidden West is different and I question people who can't see the difference.

[@reizak8966]

Your description of how Aloy *should* be after a battle is exactly how I am after a fight with a boss in a Souls game. I'll be freezing when I start playing then gradually shed layers of blankets and turn off the heat only to strip down to shorts and drink ice water by the end of my play session.

[@SolaScientia]

Exactly. FromSoftware fights, even against mini-bosses, or the field bosses in the case of Elden Ring, are exhilarating and stressful and just a hell of a good time even when I'm dying repeatedly. What little I played of Horizon Zero Dawn had me bored pretty quickly. Fights weren't that fun. When I died to things I was more annoyed than anything else and didn't want to make more attempts. There was no sense of reward for my hard work.

[@HastyElderHaman]

@@SolaScientia The gameplay hasn't really changed much besides QoL changes since 2009's Demon's Souls. It's always amusing how Souls fans act like dodge dodge dodge swing sword, dodge dodge dodge (in the case of late bosses in Elden Ring) is some amazing fascinating gameplay while the locked on camera jumps around crazily. If only Horizon had a message across the screen that said "God Felled" maybe then you'd get that satisfaction.

[@Outwardpd]

@@HastyElderHaman It is more like if Horizon had an actual challenge to overcome and didn't just occasionally throw a surprise at you for the illusion of challenge. And also offered proper rewards for them. Then maybe there'd be some satisfaction. "Gameplay hasn't changed since Demon Souls" - Bro you could've just told us you haven't played any fromsoft games.

[@demondays3956]

​@@HastyElderHaman i guess you haven't played any of them then? it's not the dodge rolling and sword swinging that makes dark souls gameplay so good, it's learning the enemies' attack patterns, and getting increasingly better and better at dealing with them, while also dealing with a controll-scheme that punishes frantic panic inputs, until they finally collapse. dark souls' gameplay is good because boss battles get better the longer you fight them.

[@TheCreepyLantern]

that most of us beating a video game boss respond with more emotion then she does fighting GIANT ROBOT MONSTER says everythin

[@WerewolfGuyyy]

Now i'm picturing Agent 47 running a tea shop on the coast, wearing a small apron over his hitman suit, with a permanent scowl on his face and getting slightly excited when the new shipment of earl grey arrives. The end.

[@Sponsie1000]

The over-excited-in-an-almost-overbearing-way personality yahtzee described towards the end reminded me a lot of Webby in that Ducktales reboot of a few years back. Webby also had kinda a secluded life up until the start of the serie and she behaved exactly like that. That series was fun

[@lavetissene339]

And that is why Yahtz will always be right about everything.

[@FlippySuper]

That character also had a twist at the end where it’s revealed they’re super important

[@ZlatkoTheGod]

You're just saying that cause Tennant was Scrooge

[@Stoicgame]

Lol, I also thought of Naruto, from naruto.

[@Sponsie1000]

@@ZlatkoTheGod l was saying Webby was the same as the personality Yahtzee described because Scrooge was Tennant..?

[@starburst98]

Indeed, in the first game her doing it all alone at first makes sense because she didn't know she had a secret destiny and the keys. When the first door opens after scanning her she is surprised.

[@NO.10162]

I think that a good character consists of the 4 qualities: ideals, desires, emotions, and opinions Think of it like a character body The ideals are the skeleton The desires are the organs The opinions are the skin And the emotions are all the features like nails and eyes and a mouth

[@jesustyronechrist2330]

Oh yeah? So what's Aloy's beard then?!?!?!?!?! Checkmate liberuls

[@NO.10162]

@@jesustyronechrist2330 I couldn't even begin to fathom a proper response to that.

[@ratlinggull2223]

@@jesustyronechrist2330 beards are classified as weapons

[@Lrbearclaw]

As a fan of Horizon and someone who loves Aloy, you are 100% correct. This was something that annoyed me while I loved the game.

[@katrichardsonwriter]

Yeah, I've been playing the new one and I kept trying to put my finger on why it felt like work. But here it is.

[@Wandering_Nowhere]

The dialogue in this game exemplifies quantity over quality, with characters that felt more like placeholders than humans.

[@grfrjiglstan]

I feel like most critics don't even care about the story, unless it's something really painstakingly designed like Last of Us. They're so used to bad or no story in games, they're grading on the most generous curve in the history of curves.

[@AdonanS]

Yeah, these days reviewers/journalists seem to put gameplay and graphics above story. Gameplay I can understand, but why the hell do I care if a game looks nice? Nine times out of ten I won't even notice because I'll be too busy blasting a boss or trying to figure out a puzzle. As long as it looks serviceable, I don't care. Tell me about the story and gameplay.

[@AuroDHikoshi]

games are becoming too much like movies when the ones that get the attention are going for the obvious awards.. the awards don't agree with that but it feels there are games big like this that could be said to be Oscar bait?

[@novacorponline]

Even Last of Us is only passing on a curve... Joel: "Hey there random group of well armed strangers. I'm Joel, and that's my brother Tommy. My social security number is xxx-xx-xxxx and my date of birth is xx-xx-xxxx. Hold on a minute, you guys look kind of mad. Do you know me from somewhere? I sure do hope none of you have personal or business relations with any of the many, many people who want me dead!"

[@ToyKeeper]

OTOH, a lot of game stories are more coherent than at least half the movies Hollywood makes each year. For examples, look at the Pitch Meetings channel. Well-written stories and characters, whether in a game or a movie, seem to be the exception instead of the rule.

[@theblargh151]

Thank you! I've been saying this for YEARS! I guess anything can seem like Schindler's List after enough creative starvation.

[@XzaroX]

The solution is to make a new character for the game and have Aloy as a scholar/mentor-type NPC. This was already tried by Oblivion, probably the only Elder Scrolls game where you weren't some special chosen one, but you were protecting the special chosen NPC.

[@MariotheAnimator]

Thinking about the "after success" question with some of my favorite games: - Mario would have parties, play some sports and go kart-racing - MegaMan would deactivate his weapons and help Dr. Light with new robots, maybe play Soccer - Samus would probably go bar hopping before just going on another hunt.

[@Commager88]

Parvati was also written as a social outcast who finds a community who accepts her and she's funny and awkward and outspoken about what's right and wrong and has a life outside of being part of the player's crew and there are 5 other characters that are written almost as well as her and the Outer Worlds had 1/3rd the budget.

[@pskeifk]

I'm no literature expert and I don't really know how to describe what I feel about it, but the Outers Worlds writing was a bit bland for me. I did like it though, and my favorite part were the companions who followed you, but I went in expecting writing on the level of Fallout New Vegas and ended up disappointed.

[@Commager88]

@@pskeifk Fair enough, I didn't find it bland personally but if you did that's totally fine, no one said the Outer Worlds has to be considered the best written game of all time by everybody. I wanted to mention Parvati as an example of an outsider who doesn't have to be stoic, by a studio working with much less money.

[@iamthew0lf]

I could not stand Parvati! 🤣

[@Phanthief95]

I disagree mainly because a lot of the writing for The Outer Worlds was pretty bland. Also, ironically, both Parvati & Aloy were voiced by Ashly Burch.

[@Commager88]

@@Phanthief95 huh. Neat.

[@rade-blunner7824]

"Yeah I know! My issue is not that story doesn't adequately explain why Aloy is insufferable, my issue is that Aloy is insufferable." I've had this argument about so many different properties lately, it's really weird.

[@jimhjortsberg2990]

"Apologizing for or admitting the fact that you're a bad or inexperienced writer does not change the fact that you're a bad and/or inexperienced writer". An idea i tend to live by. A character stopping for example to comment about how stupid an aspect of a story is does not justify its stupidity.

[@Alphabunsquad]

@@jimhjortsberg2990 ah yes. Ye old shade of the lamp. A favorite of the later seasons of Game of Thrones. Better than not doing it at all but still no where near as good as actually having decent writing and not needing to lampshade in the first place.

[@Broomer52]

@@Alphabunsquad it can be done properly but the issue is they use it to explain away a writing mistake, it’s purpose should be for the sake of pointing out something weird. Lampshading should be “That was dumb” not “the story is dumb” the first example that comes to mind was an Ed, Edd n Eddy joke. Ed and Eddy dig a hole to cut off Edd, Edd realizes they didn’t make the hole wide enough and just looks at them all confused before simply walking around it.

[@imightbebiased9311]

@@jimhjortsberg2990 "A character stopping for example to comment about how stupid an aspect of a story is does not justify its stupidity." It doesn't justify it, but if said commentary is in a game that has been localized, this may actually be one of the localization editors venting about how stupid the thing that you're seeing is.

[@noizepusher7594]

It’s the maiden eating orcs argument

[@Yuhara_rev]

This one kinda feels like a dev diary episode on how to write your main character, I really like it.

[@chasespringer5823]

Except it’s full of shitty hot takes about how Yahtze doesn’t like strong female characters and would prefer them to be “overly excited” and “not outcasts” and “with a romantic partner” to make them interesting. It’s shit advice if you’re actually trying to write a character as dynamic and multidimensional as Aloy

[@Yuhara_rev]

@@chasespringer5823 I mean the romantic one was just his idea to make her not solely interested in saving the world just because right? That sounds multidimensional to me.

[@chasespringer5823]

@@Yuhara_rev she is multi dimensional, neither of you pay fuck all attention to her character development. You don’t need to have a romantic relationship to be dimensional ya fucking misogynist

[@Yuhara_rev]

@@chasespringer5823 I was just saying that he said the romance thing was just an example, it doesn't have to exclusively be that one. Yahtzee just thought Aloy needs another interest outside of saving the world. What she wants to do when everything's okay. That's it. Doesn't have to be romance. Why do you have to be all mad and insult me, I was genuinely trying to have a cool-headed discussion with you.

[@johnleonard9102]

@@chasespringer5823 you need to watch his review of Metroid Dread then. Having a romantic interest is not a flaw; the desire to be happily married and raise strong and joyful children is one of the most heroic things a person can do. It's the character itself saying: "my people are worthy of continuing on, and I'm going to take part in that ON TOP of being the hero." This modern trend of showing romantic interest as a weakness is one of the greatest farces in storytelling.

[@Tyler-gg6xt]

Thank you for doing this. If you still have that power to get developers to implement your ideas, this would be a very appreciated place to use it.

[@nocturem]

Unfortunately he is cursed that they will only implement his sarcastic suggestions and anything he has pointed out is a stupid idea. Those they grab on to with both hands and a throbbing erection.

[@jesustyronechrist2330]

Not really up for devs, but the writers

[@Grizabeebles]

I think Yahtzee had a great insight in this video. If word of Aloy started spreading between communities, she'd probably have a hard time keeping *an actual cult* from forming around her. And on a purely pragmatic level, letting a self-organizing tribe of zealots do the majority of the fighting and dying for gives humanity as a whole a much better chance than doing everything herself. And even if Aloy herself is against it, that doesn't mean someone else in her retinue or some political opportunist or mere pretender isn't going to organize people into a protective shell whether she wants one or not. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but Aloy attracting and having to manage followers with varying tribal loyalties, different psychological profiles and shifting degrees of commitment to her cause would be an excellent use case for the Nemesis system. If Aloy continuously alienates herself from the people around her she's going to be unprepared when her quest becomes becomes hopelessly ensnared in other people's politics.

[@harrylane4]

@@jesustyronechrist2330 and who pays the writers?

[@bastion8804]

​@@harrylane4 Their boss, whoever that is based on their contract.

[@LordBloodraven]

In Zero Dawn, Aloy's personality made sense, but was kept on a leash so as not to make her unlikable. In Forbidden West, the writers gave those personality quirks too much free reign until it became Aloy's ENTIRE character. Second verse, but somehow worse than the first.

[@KingOfElectricNinjas]

A pretty common writing flaw, where personality quirks of an initially rounded character end up completely taking them over until they're one-note, and it's then often treated as it's been their characterisation all along. Ned Flanders from the Simpsons is usually the poster child, ending up a stand-in for fundamentalist Christianity even in the good seasons when previously he had a lot going on.

[@firhennodu]

The worst part of it all is that all the character growth from the last game, such as learning to rely on others as a team, is just gone for no good reason whatsoever. If she needed to find GAIA, why in the sweet hell didn't the game start with her asking the Sun King for a legion of soldiers to help her? Frustrating.

[@Mord12gp]

Was the last game about her learning to work as a team? I remeber her learning to open up more. This game is more about her letting people in. She can work people fine, but she's not close with people.

[@egomania2792]

The frst game is about her finding her mother and by doing that, find out who and what she and her place in the world is. The friends she made came as a byproduct of her helping them (Aloy is WAAAAAY to social btw). And her problem in the beginning of HFW is that she doesnt wanna ask for help because she doesn't want anyone to get hurt or killed because of her asking. Tbf, what Yahtzee says about no one calling her out on her bullshit is absolutely correct. How many times have I yelled at Varl or Erend to not fucking back down and NOT do what Aloy says when she shoos them away again. They do later, but for my taste they should have done it before we even leave The Daunt.

[@NotaWalrus1]

@@Mord12gp It wasn't really about that, no. The final mission does have a sweet moment where all her allies come together to defend Meridian, but it's not really an emotional throughline. Her "I have to do it alone" mindset doesn't really exist until the second game.

[@hurrly9036]

@@NotaWalrus1 I havent played much of the first game but does it not open with her trying to befriend someone and them being led away cos she is shunned. I always thought she did want to make friends and meet new people. Wasnt that her whole motivation for wanting to travel in the first place before learning about her mother?

[@brianollivier]

@@NotaWalrus1 I would argue that there is an emotional throughline at the end of the first game for Aloy. Yes, it is optional to go and check on everybody, but there is growth there. They still do the thing where she is somewhat emotionally ambiguous in defining her relationships, but she is generous in her appreciation of everyone coming to her aid. Unlike in HFW, where she immediately pushes anyone who tries to help her away and is hellbent on doing things on her own until certain developments occur. It is incredibly jarring to see that she snuck out on everyone the very same evening the whole city of Meridian was defended and didn't bother to tell anyone, especially since just a short while before Aloy was all "That's great you're here and you brought weapons/resources that could really help!" I was absolutely on Erend's side when you meet him in the Daunt and I felt it actually made Aloy incredibly unlikeable for a large portion of the early stages of the game.

[@joshcee3362]

I love Aloy and these games, but the phrase "My issue isn't that the story doesn't explain why Aloy is insufferable. My issue is that Aloy is insufferable." will have me laughing for weeks.

[@brunop.8745]

easily the best line in the video

[@peterb5235]

Why do you love Aloy? She goes out of her way to be unpleasant to everyone and doesn't have 0.01% of a sense of humor. I'm not trying to provoke you, I'm asking from your perspective, which I respect, what makes you feel that way about her?

[@joshcee3362]

@@peterb5235 I think her innate self-reliance bred by years of being forcibly removed from society. I was bullied heavily growing up too so, like her, I really only rely on myself. I also appreciate that she recognizes she has a job to do that takes precedence over everything else, but also takes time to try to help people, even if she doesn't always understand them. I also love her discovery of different personalities of people...her discovering Morlund and instantly finding a kinship with him over something she's always been side-eyed for by others: being a raging geek over technology. So, yeah, she can be gruff, she can be an asshole, but the best people I've ever known are that way...I'd rather have someone that is slightly insufferable than someone who is fake nice.

[@peterb5235]

@@joshcee3362 Fair enough. I see your rationale and even though I don't hold quite the same feeling I understand your argument. My main issue is and was that it seems like everything she learned in her arc in the first one (that you don't always need to go it alone) is thrown out the window and it feels like she goes backwards in regards to her more irksome aspects in this one. Just the writing I took issue with. I also hate fake nice personalities more than I can describe so I do get that aspect for sure. Anywho, thanks for your well thought out answer

[@triplehate6759]

It a writing problem going back to the diversion crap in the first part of Don Quixote: intentionally boring and annoying is still, at the end of it all, boring and annoying. For those who haven't read it or do not recall, I am talking about that multi-chapter long slog of various irrelevant new characters showing up, telling their life's stories - which have nothing at ALL to do with Quixote's own story - for extended periods, then none of that ever coming up in ANY fashion again after the Man From La Mancha comes back downstairs. I have little doubt Cervantes was trying to illustrate some literary or storytelling point with that - that is, after all, the kind of story Don Quixote is - but it is a trap that pretentious writers tend to fall into all the time, thinking that if bad is done by design rather than by accident, that somehow makes it above criticism.

[@KevinNYank]

I found turning off the subtitles really helped me drop into the conversations, rather than reading ahead. There are definitely occasional moments where I wish I could rewind and see the subtitle (some of Alloy's remarks in the open world are a bit too quiet/mumbly to catch), but the net effect of going without subtitles was extremely positive for me.

[@erikandersen3274]

If you really want a positive change, you can turn the sound off altogether and pretend the characters are actually saying something interesting.

[@DudeMcBro]

You're not wrong, Alloy is a staggeringly inconsiderate narcissist, and that's FINE. It just needs to be acknowledged more by other characters in the game, like in the way Kratos from GoW is well... "acknowledged" by various characters throughout the GoW series. Whats really interesting about Horizon is the psychological profile they build up of a narcissist even worse than Alloy, Ted Faro, and how Elizibet / Alloy are constantly compared to him. Theres a notable lack of cognitive dissonance experienced by Alloy about her own behavior during these story segments, which the story could have benefited from immensely had they otherwise put it in, I think.

[@alex1stamford779]

She is quite acknowledged though: Of course, nobody flips out on her because they are quite indebted to her for saving the world and their lives. They all, however, in one way or another force their presence like Erend and Varl did in the beginning or continually explain to Aloy that she should accept their help, like Zo does. They all do it respectfully knowing the horrible treatment Aloy received from her tribes and "trusted" people like Sylens. Now, in contrast, people who don't feel indebted to Aloy give no shits to her feelings. Beta rants at Aloy without any consideration and so does Sylens. While Beta criticises Aloy's non-seriousness/laziness in handling the matter, Sylens continually criticises Aloy's inability to appreciate help of others. Secondly, not accepting help from other people.. is by no means narcissistic. A lot of people are loners and they would rather not do something than do it with someone else. It is true that she's not really considerate of the beliefs in their world, similar to how young atheists or science-enthusiasts are typically inconsiderate of religious people belief. But for that, people like Zo do put her in her place.

[@abnormalnox]

​@@alex1stamford779people really overlook aloys upbringing

[@onedeadsaint]

extra punctuation is quickly becoming my favorite series! quite enjoy these.

[@raidermaxx2324]

"quickly becoming"? lol where have you been?

[@whodatninja439]

i miss judging by the cover

[@SirMandokarla]

Even I, with my incredible ability for staving off disbelief, have wondered why Aloy goes off on her own when she's meant to be brilliant and keenly aware of her own genetic importance to the future. Worse, it's not even as if this game doesn't have a fine form for allies. One or two can easily come along with you and fight and be useful. I had one experience where Aloy was in a Cauldron running through a puzzle that required putting boxes on pressure plates, and SHE HAD TWO ALLIES RIGHT THERE. One of them is even another Nora. There was no excuse not to have that ally come along and just stand on a pressure plate for a bit. He's been through the Proving, he's not as good a hunter as Aloy, but he's not incompetent. But instead I had to run around, following Aloy's exact instructions, to get boxes to place on the pressure plates. It's sad that she clearly had her own motivation in the first game, and in this one it's both addressed that she doesn't really do friends and that this is a weird thing that calls into question her motivations. Her motive, basically, is to make her millennium-dead "mother" proud (and save the world), and it feels like that's not being addressed. If her allies were with her the entire time she was out on quests, Mass Effect-style, there'd be so much more opportunity for character growth! All that said, I love the game and I hope Aloy can grow in the next half of my playthrough, or if there's a sequel.

[@AuroraFirestorm]

She has an issue trusting people, combined with the Focus being something she has that everyone else doesn't. As seen in the tutorial, even people who trust her, don't want to believe that their Goddess isn't real, and it takes time to learn what the Focus does and how to use it.

[@Cortaal]

This is a great critique of a character. It made me stop and apply this to a lot of characters I like. For example: Why do I like Commander Shepard? He shares a lot of similar traits to what Yahtzee was describing about Aloy, minus the go-it-alone quality. Thinking about it, my guess would be the actions I make Shepard take that makes him more of a character that I like. Such as feverish collecting all the toy model ships, tricking every shop on the Citadel to give him a discount, who Shepard ends up being romantic with, and showing off his horrible dance skills. So while Shepard is naturally a boring character, the player has the ability to make him do things that make his character interesting. Thinking of you camera lady I love to punch.

[@mr.j7444]

shepard is a bland character because they are a template for the player to project more details from their own imagination onto this allows for far more of an engaging story. alloy is a set static character who is equally if not more bland which doesn't work for a non player insert character.

[@lartrak]

I think you're right about the main reason why you like him, but it's notable to me he actually does have more personality than Aloy, despite deliberately being empty in some ways to let players inject themselves in. Shepard has a fairly set way of interacting with crewmates, and the same basic dry sense of humor no matter how you play him, for instance. No matter what you do, he's more likable than Aloy.

[@viluns]

Shepard dances. Badly. That makes him/her perfect. But also he is not that important, he/she is not the key or some magic power person. Shepard is on the front line because if he won't go there no one will. His/her sacrifice would make sense and the fight would continue, as there are generals and admirals that actually lead the war.

[@PsychicWars]

Shepard is an interesting case because there are some aspects to his/her personality that are common across all playthroughs. Shepard fights Reapers, even if nobody else will. Shepard is a natural leader. Shepard's resolve was forged in fire, whether during a rough childhood, a failed mission, or a slaver attack. Shepard will get the job done, whether through brutally-efficient pragmatism or charisma and diplomacy. Shepard isn't a blank-slate protagonist like Fallout or Elder Scrolls or Persona protagonists, because while the specifics can be left up to the player, Shepard is still a character in his/her own right. I've seen streamers who miss some key parts of plot in Mass Effect because they make the mistake of projecting too much of themselves onto Shepard. But that's not a fault of the writers, because the writers didn't write Bobby or Michael or Jan or Marcia Shepard, they wrote COMMANDER Shepard.

[@kartikayysola]

Because Mass Effect gives you the broad strokes of who Shepard is, but filling the blanks in is up to you, and not everyone fills those blanks in the same way. Arthur Morgan is another great example of this to an even greater degree imo, because RDR2 fleshes out just enough of Arthur to give him a personality, but leaves enough up to the player to make him THEIR Arthur.

[@aperson9847]

I liked Aloy a lot in the first game. Her personal struggle of feeling like she didn't belong anywhere went hand in hand with the wider conflict of the world--in fact it was the whole reason she was the key to this conflict--and it made her much more human. It gave her moments of genuine insecurity, despair, etc, and made me feel connected to her. Her stoic nature made sense due to the way she was raised, but I actually found her to be quite funny as well with her sort of unflappable sarcasm and inability to tolerate idiots. The writing certainly wasn't Naughty Dog level, but basically no writing in any game outside of a Naughty Dog release ever is. And with that personal mystery of Aloy's existence solved, as well as the mystery of the state of the world, the entire second game just fell pretty flat. I still didn't dislike Aloy, despite that her line delivery did get a bit grating, but there was nothing for me to connect with her on. "A to B protagonist" is a great way to put it. She became a vessel for the plot, and the plot itself wasn't something I especially cared about.

[@swimteamizzle1114]

“Yeah, I know. My issue is not that the story doesn’t adequately explain *why* Aloy is insufferable. My issue is that Aloy is insufferable. They could have written the story so that she’d have a different personality and explained it just as easily.” This comes up so much these days, especially with Marvel. You point out something that isn’t narratively satisfying, and the fanboy response is to inform you that it makes sense in-universe, missing the point. It’s the CinemaSins approach to media analysis, where the only valid critiques are “plot holes”.

[@RTDice11]

6:50 Okay, but unironically that'd be absolutely adorable and I'm still mad we don't get to shape that kind of Aloy with the limited dialogue options in HZD.

[@juannot1353]

Liked the context of how TLOU did things technically right, I still didn't like the game in general but yeah, it's sensible for them all to be miserable and predictably awful. I wish the story was different but for what it is it's perfectly competent. Speaking of alloy being a human keycard, this should have lead to the exact same plotpoint as the end TLOU 1. Characters want to put her in shrink wrap to be scanned when needed to save the world and she doesn't want that. Doesn't need to turn out the same way, each side could be convinced of some compromise or whatever, but clearly they should have not just acknowledged this not just as a line in dialogue but as a major point of conflict that needs to be solved.

[@paulgibbon5991]

And there are ways around her being essential. Maybe she finds a device that'll let someone else open the bunkers, or another survivor with her ability. Heck, maybe she inexplicably loses the power and has to go on a quest to regain it.

[@NabsterHax]

The problem is that they don't want to make their protagonist anything other than a Mary Sue. It happens all the time in poorly written media. The writers want their protagonist to be a beacon of perfection but the writers are incompetent and just end up writing a fictional universe where the main character is always right and anyone who disagrees with them is magically wrong. You're right that the issue in this case could easily be solved by making Aloy's desire to help save the world be at odds with the world's desire to keep her away from any danger, but that would require the writers to understand that Aloy as she's written now is basically a narcissist. They don't, though. The narcissism is completely unintentional - she's supposed to be basically perfect, with her one intentional "flaw" being "a bit socially awkward" - even though she doesn't reflect REAL social awkwardness in the slightest and being a bit socially awkward is not a fucking character flaw, it's totally normal human behaviour.

[@john52933]

Yeah that’s why Slyens exist, to constantly praise Aloy for being a strong independent woman, not to harshly criticize her. Stop isong games you’ve never played in your pathetic crusade against le sjws

[@Phanthief95]

@@paulgibbon5991 Another survivor with her ability? You do know that Aloy is a clone of Elizabet Sobeck created by GAIA, right? She only ever made one. She’s able to open doors because she has Elizabet’s genetic code in her DNA.

[@Phanthief95]

@@john52933 Sylens has harshly criticized Aloy plenty of times, most especially about her viewpoints as he sees them as naive.

[@masterplusmargarita]

I really want to find whoever decided to make the world in the game about cavemen hunting robot dinosaurs in a natural wonderland realistic, mundane and vaguely grim and lightly hit them with a rolled up newspaper until I annoy them into saying sorry.

[@nejinaji]

Problem is her only connection to the world was also the first casualty and then they just kinda never wrote anything else for her I guess

[@danc1513]

Except if you've played the game, you know that's not true, and a huge part of Aloy's narrative....

[@nejinaji]

@@danc1513 I've played through complete edition. She's more of a vessel for the player than anything. She has her own sort of personality but its so mild and inoffensive that its completely forgettable. Which the vessel for the player thing is fine, its worked in the past.

[@LukasJampen]

@@nejinaji i would say she shows a lot of personality, mostly being snarky/sarcastic but also very direct and not diplomatic (until she suddenly is). She also has a very high opinion of her abilities and is often abrasive. Not that, that makes her a good character. For me there were a lot of moments in the first game where she was pretty annoying and too high and mighty. Also her commenting on everything while roaming the open world could get pretty annoying as well. I wouldn't mind her character that much since it makes sense considering how she grew up but everybody just likes her or agrees with her and of course she turns out to be almost always right and the best at everything. The only person who sometimes actually talks back and brings her of her high horse is the shady guy silence (i think). Overall her personality worked in the first game because she is mostly on her own and all the allies she has don't know how important she is and have their own stuff to do and can't just go with her but for the second it sounds like she is part of a group where that definitely doesn't mesh with an open world game with such high stakes.

[@patchwurk6652]

@@LukasJampen If there's no underlying motives, that's not really a personality as much as just "a pile of quirks." Like she has "personality" the same way Marvel jokes have "personality". They're just inoffensive quips. Like it comes across like Aloy has exactly nothing of interest to her EXCEPT her status as a protag. All her hobbies are centered on "Protag Quest" shit, all her interests are "Protag Quest" shit, like... What does Aloy do for fun? What's a life dream Aloy has? What's something She Wants in this world besides "finishing the game?" Like she wants to save the world and shit, but I'm not seeing any actual "Why" she wants to besides the reason Literally Anyone would have: "I don't want to die" and "This is a videogame so I HAVE to." ...Wow. Really getting a deep dive of the human soul here. Aloy doesn't want to die, never met a human with That motivation before... Except pretty much most of them.

[@LukasJampen]

@@patchwurk6652 I only pointed out she has character traits and a personality but I never said it was very good. And yes her motivation aside from wanting revenge is pretty meh. She clearly isn't consumed by hate and more trying to find out why they wanted to kill her and aside from that we get nothing much.

[@Legend64Project]

I worked on this game. During multiple play tests I kept saying I’d do the story differently. I wanted to see a story where Aloy has to decide what she wants to do next after having fulfilled her purpose and saved the world. She would have gone exploring out into the west and come across the Tenakth who are locked into tribal warfare with each other. Aloy would help bring an end to the hostilities throughout the course of the game and learn that she can still contribute to the world even though she has fulfilled her mission from the first game. The scale may be smaller but the story would be far more introspective and personal. You don’t save the entire world again, but achieve the salvation of the Tenakth who you come to know and respect as you play. It’s crazy that we had to go over everything with such a fine tooth comb but the writers can get away with anything…

[@ViewtifulO]

Why would she be exploring the West though? It's "forbidden" because they already know the Tenakth will try to kill any trespassers on sight, right? I'm only part of the way through so maybe I missed something. Hopefully she'd have a better reason to be risking her life like that, aside from "seeing what's out there."

[@Wahooney]

This was genuinely helpful; I'm trying to get more writing done in my games and analyses like this helps expose niggles I have in the back of my mind that I sometimes can't quite put my finger on.

[@GayFurryFromROA]

The hell is a "niggle"?

[@voland6846]

@@GayFurryFromROA A mental itch you can't scratch. A persistent annoyance or discomfort.

[@GayFurryFromROA]

@@voland6846 oh. The more you know

[@PJBonoVox]

Just do whatever is the opposite of what the writers did in these two god awful games.

[@chasespringer5823]

My biggest advice is to avoid listening to men yell about how they don’t like how women characters are written. He’s wrong on all counts and completely missed the point

[@Jewelsmith]

Thank you so much for this. "Aloy is insufferable and I want to play as someone else" is how I felt in the first game, and I was hoping to see some growth and character development in Forbidden West (and maybe the opportunity to have companions along at all times? not just for scripted quests). The secondary and tertiary characters also come up short, as you noted. Someone on Twitter said "Why does this guy look like an Aztec chief but sound like the manager of a Subway?" and I think that pretty much sums up my feelings about most of these characters.

[@courier6960]

About the second point, the whole “sounds like the manager of a subway” is probably because they got only the douchiest and whitest California surfer dudes to play minority heavy tribalistic characters (I haven’t even played the game and I’m willing to bet that’s exactly what happened, because it’s industry standard) because the game was made by people looking at spreadsheets instead of someone with an actual vision.

[@chasespringer5823]

Just admit you don’t like strong women protagonists and call it a day. She developed in both games so it’s patently clear you just honored her

[@chasespringer5823]

Ignored*

[@Jewelsmith]

@@chasespringer5823 No, I don't dislike strong women protagonists. I just happen to dislike this one.

[@patchwurk6652]

@@chasespringer5823 Excuse me? That's a bold ass accusation just because someone didn't like a character that's incidentally a woman. I can assure you she'd be just as bland, insufferable, whiny and arrogant if she had a dick and balls. But thanks for showcasing how utterly childish and simple your worldview is that you can boil down a person's complex opinion to the non sequitur of "hurr durr, you just don't like waman!" Aloy's a big girl, she doesn't need you defending her honor.

[@vinnythewebsurfer]

Could you imagine watching a New hope and then when we see Luke again in Empire strikes back, he’s just a completely different character like the last movie didn’t happen? Like him and Han Solo still act like they don’t know each other and that he’s just being a know it all dick to everyone?

[@Carlos-ln8fd]

Great video thanks. It feels like too many games now (and movies for that matter) are scared to give a character a defined personality in fear of alienating consumers so they go with bland.

[@JinzoTK]

Making Aloy more of an adrenaline junkie or get some kind of high from fighting robots and saving the world could explain why she likes to go at things solo but she is written to appear pragmatic (I think) and the gameplay doesn't support that. There's a word for this that people liked to use a lot...

[@averywhitaker3513]

I've been throwing around savior complex as her biggest flaw, but it sounds like you're alluding to something else

[@TanTanHizo]

"mary-sue" ish.. i think.

[@averywhitaker3513]

@@TanTanHizo that implies that she cannot fail and that everybody likes her. Well, more necessitates it

[@JinzoTK]

@@TanTanHizo I was alluding to ludonarrative dissonance

[@dr.pastrami5272]

Yes she is a mary sue. No point beating around the bush. You just watched a 7 minute video explaining why.

[@jimhjortsberg2990]

Writers seem to struggle in general when it comes to making "emotive" characters. On one hand there is that classic "logic" regarding how we cant show a character as overly emotive as that will make them look "weak". Ignoring the fact that there is no "weakness" in emotions. Rather its what makes a character relatable and "human". And not just a boring shell. But on the other you got the opposite problem where writers overcompensate and make characters that are just whiny and annoying due to how they overreact to everything. So a good character needs to have balance between stoicism and being overly expressive in order to be intresting.

[@gargleff2691]

Bad writers especially in North America have that issue

[@averywhitaker3513]

@@gargleff2691 well, god is at fault as well, so something something first stone or whatever

[@gargleff2691]

@@averywhitaker3513 the fuck are you babbling about?

[@gargleff2691]

@@AFistfulOf4K bring it back to video games, the persona series is a good example of good character writing, 80-120 hour games and the characters don't break and instead develop over time.

[@circusandbread]

Wasn’t that the point of “the bigger picture” discussion that Aloy has with Tilda about her, Elisabet and Beta. Because all iterations of Elisabet have the same fatal flaw that manifests in a different way.

[@DeirdreYoung1]

The dialog in all these games just grinds my gears - nobody alive speaks like a game character. Where do they get those writers? It's like they take normal dialog and run each noun through a synonym dictionary until they get pompous, non-idiomatic sentences that sound like english is a second language for every game protagonist and NPC.

[@PJBonoVox]

Yep, it's hot garbage. I couldn't spend more than 30 minutes playing as 'adult' Aloy in the first game. Everything about it ground my gears. But hey, people lap up this garbage these days.

[@atrumequus9349]

It's really embarrassing when a AAA title can't even get that right. I listen to a lot of audiobooks these days plenty of them started as free indie web novels that then got published on Amazon kindle and turned into audiobooks and 90% of them have better dialogue.

[@silkworm025]

There's a point in Forbidden West that just summarised the character for me. Aloy triggers some audio log while she platforms in a soon-to-be boss arena. The person talking is saying that because of stuff going on, they're going to have to give up on something important to them. This has them on the edge of tears. Aloy helpfully mumbles to herself "She sounded... upset." Which I think is a writing problem enforced from above. Her dialogue is meant to tell the story *to the player*, as if she's a narrator instead of a character, and that just makes her look so out of place and irritating. She'll grumble "so much for stealth" as you launch explosives in a surprise attack, she'll "hint" towards the solutions to puzzles the moment the player approaches one, as if she's bored and just wants it out of the way as soon as possible.

[@alexmiller7173]

I think it was a huge mistake to kill Rost in the first game as he was one of the more interesting characters in the series. The characters that were brought into the sequel like Varl and Erend are bland and boring. The boy who threw a rock at Aloy and gave her a scar could have later been a love interest but they killed him off too. He didn't even stay around long enough to apologize and accept her into the tribe. The Nora tribe is not even represented in the sequel. Aloy is still alone at the end of the first game with no close relationships. The only memorable character living at the end of Zero Dawn other than Aloy is Sylens and he is more of a villain. Overall I enjoyed the Horizon games for the gameplay and exploration but I do feel that the games are held back from truly being great by the story which lacks good characterization.

[@kartikayysola]

Rost and Sylens were the only two characters I had any strong feelings towards in HZD.

[@rayjones1455]

Rost was great in the first game, especially how we got to experience him as a parent. I agree that they should have kept him alive.

[@Walamonga1313]

When Rost dies and Aloy gives exactly 1 fuck for about 2 minutes then forgets about him, that's the part where the game lost me lol. I already didn't like the open world nature but that made me not like the story either. I dropped it soon afterward

[@Wolfs0n]

What's funny is this is a stark contrast to Ghost of Tsushima's protagonist Jin and Sony's last big blockbuster title. Jin was a Samurai in the Kamakura period of Japan, he born into nobility, status, wealth. Yet Aloy being an outcast, isolated and yet as Yahtzee said, she's the one who displays an attitude of utter Narcissism. But the two also share something when it comes to their situation, Jin is the nephew of Tsushima's Jito in the game, not only that but the only remaining blood relative to the Jito. If they were to both die it leaves a power vacuum on the island that would have left clans scrambling and slaughtering to fill the void. Also in the wake of the Mongol invasion, it would leave a black stain on the governing powers more than likely to sew seeds of chaos and rebellion as people lose faith in their sworn protectors and lost a much beloved leader as Lord Shimura is shown to be. If Aloy dies the whole world is fuck and yes I know that's a pretty big difference, but at the core if either dies their home and their people would suffer more immensely as time goes on both in the short and long term. Yet it's the 1%er, the born into nobility, the rich kid Jin that somehow ISN'T the narcissistic "I'm the only one who can save you all" twat between the two of them. He shows abhorrence at first to the tactics he learns, but that is gradually brushed aside as his main goal is to save his people and home and realizes that to do so he doesn't have the luxury of being picky about how he does it. He actively seeks out allies, alliances of the few remaining islanders, new tools and techniques because he understands that going it alone and unprepared with only a Samurai's pride is stupid and suicidal. As he learned very early in game, it conveys very effectively that he is aware up until that point his survival had been pure luck and he needed to change his approach. Where as Aloy props the world up on her shoulders when no one asked her to that to me is also pretty damn self righteous as well as narcissistic, acting like she's the second coming and everyone around her would have been dead if she didn't get there when she did. Only to then get soundly trounced into the dirt herself.

[@Greil9]

Also Jin has his moments of levity and sense of humor. Like when he drinks with Yuna before battle, or tells Ryuzo that if he should die trying to infiltrate the enemy camp "If I die, avenge me. And steal their food."

[@geasslordzero]

As an introvert with a very sheltered upbringing I can say there's no one specific way someone in aloy's situation will adapt 100% of the time. Me personally I'm usually quiet and annoyed around people I don't know or don't like. But around friends and family you can't get me to shut up. Being introvert doesn't mean people don't talk or don't like to talk that idea is clearly from the perspective of someone who has read about introverts and thinks they understand what one is but has never bothered to actually speak to one. Introverts don't like to socialize when we don't have to or don't like to socialize in specific ways like in person or over the phone. If Aloy Is meant to be an introvert it makes sense that she has a laser focus on her goal and doesn't want to deal with other people or their problems because that requires her to get out of her comfort zone. Don't get me wrong I agree they could have created a different personality more suited to the story or gameplay but I think it's misinformed to say the way she behaves doesn't make sense for the personality they gave her.

[@EccentricGentelman]

1:55 I thought something similar, except that I think it might be an interesting character arc. Aloy's been focused like a laser on her one goal all her life, first on on winning the proving and learning the truth about her origin, then on learning the truth about her origin and later saving the world, then just saving the world. I think it might be interesting for Aloy to realize she's never really stopped to think about what she wants out of life.

[@cody2teach277]

If "I can only do this alone" was the lie about herself that Aloy believed, and was proven wrong in an emotionally satisfying way, then fine, that's growth... But they didn't do that. I just finished HFW tonight and I *liked* the game. But I couldn't love it. This was one of the reasons

[@princessthyemis]

YESSSS!

[@Dragonsphinx]

Totally agree. I always say having broken or imperfect characters is fine-it’s actually better, IF and ONLY if you then work through those problems to a satisfying conclusion, where the character learns something about themselves that they thought was fine but was actually not fine (irons out some of their character flaws). But fewer and fewer media seem to manage that last bit anymore. They just make their characters problematic or boring or something else and then just have them trundle through the story without change. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[@HastyElderHaman]

Yeah if at the end of the game she called a character who she initially rebuffed and rejected because she wasn't like her at all, her sister, maybe that would have worked. You know as far as an emotional satisfying arc.

[@cody2teach277]

@@HastyElderHaman You want to talk about a video game that we both like, that's fine. You want to snark because you think I forgot about Beta because my comment was made focusing on Aloy's, relationship to her world at large, that's not fine. Be nicer online, dude. You won no points here.

[@TheGreenScout]

Yeah they specifically did exactly what you're asking for. How on earth did you (and Yahtzee for that matter) miss that overcoming her 'lone wolf's approach was the key theme of the plot? What about the relationship with Beta? The accumulation of allies in the base? Or the change in attitude towards others between the intro mission where once again her allies call a hologram a goddess, confirming she can't rely on them to deal with this, to the end where she learns up uplift others and collaborate? It genuinely fascinates me how people missed all this blatant theming. The game isn't even subtle about it.

[@LowChoBro]

Geralt from Wticehr is another good example of doing this kind of thing correctly. Sure he can be dour but he's always fun to play because every conversation colors your understanding of him and his place in the world. He interacts and reacts emotionally based on the context of the person he is with and is not just "equally dour with everyone".

[@ThisAutomaton]

Not to mention that there was a fair bit of good humour written into the dialogue.

[@cabbageleon4914]

it makes sense for him too to be/appear dour and careless because witchers are stripped of the ability to express emotions. Though he's still able to express them through his dry humor, and overall action. He isn't a one dimensional character that just hurrumphs around being all moody for no reason.

[@supercyc10]

1:50 to touch on that point There was a line that Travis Tate said something along the lines of "for a woman that loves the world so much, how can you hate everyone in it" and I was like "THAT! More of THAT please" This game suffers from "second game in a trilogy that HAS to spend the whole time setting that up instead giving any payoff for this game" syndrome. It's sad, cause there was a good couple of new character arcs and plot points that were touched upon here, but soon get dropped. Like Aloy's imposter syndrome when comparing herself with Elisabet Sobec. Or the "big-bad main villains" that only showed up twice in the whole game (would've loved to got to know them more).

[@sportsjefe]

That line is one of the only hints of self awareness in the script. It's Tate outright telling the audience that Sobeck's attitude (and therefore Aloy's) makes little sense. Tate loves what he does and loves what his intelligence makes him capable of doing.

[@miguelcondadoolivar5149]

Travis Tate once again being the outlier in a horribly dull script.

[@Ingenuity009]

Aloy is the most boring character in the most amazing gaming concept in history. It's embarrassing this is the best character they could come up with.

[@AriaKyuKyu]

I've been playing Forbidden West, love the game, but Aloy is a worse character now, especially how she is so dettached to everyone she meets

[@mrciro18]

Yea they need to work on it. The world is Amazing but story/characters are forgettable.

[@bastion8804]

She's been horrible ever since the first game, even considering any "development" she may have had. Problem is they reset her back to the beginning, where she's a whole lot more insufferable.

[@AriaKyuKyu]

@@bastion8804 I think she was fine in the first one. At least I can see why she wants to prove herself to be worthy. FW is getting the Batman Logic of "I need to do this alone" BS

[@jlit5215]

What annoyed me was (minor spoilers ahead) how in the first mission she is called out how she just ditched everyone by Varl, then she does the same thing later (I get her logic, but it looks bad). Then when erend also confronts her she just defends herself. Feels like that’s why she always feels so disconnected

[@AriaKyuKyu]

@@jlit5215 Yeah, and its just odd because in the previous game, they helped her a lot. I get that she doesnt want to put anyone in danger, but it becomes more into Narcissism , rather than a Selfless commitment

[@aaaccc9945]

Modern writers aren't allowed to create female characters with any personality other than insufferably arrogant.

[@JustinJTime]

That and they are infallible and always right.

[@Landis963]

1:56 Isn't there a flashback holo where the person of whom Aloy is a genetic copy gets accused of exactly this? "How is it that someone like you - a paragon, damn near a saint - could love the world so damn much, but no one in it? I mean, have you ever even had a friend?" I suppose that's where Aloy gets it from.

[@zachg.4251]

Yes. That's probably the most "did you actually pay attention when you played the game" thing in this video. Something that at least partially gets resolved by the end of the game. (At least in my opinion)

[@comiccinema8177]

@@zachg.4251 But he mentions at the end that the issue isn’t an adequate explanation of her character traits. It’s the character trait existing in the first place. The explanations of her heritage and upbringing are always working backward from the starting point of “she’s isolated and hates people despite wanting to save the world”. But the issue is that starting point. You can very easily justify that she acts the exact opposite to intentionally distinguish herself from her genetic counterpart.

[@zachg.4251]

@@comiccinema8177 I get that. If you're not satisfied with the cause/effect of "Aloy acts this way for these reasons" that's your preference. And if you're displeased with how Aloy acts throughout the game that's also fair. One of the parts of Aloy's arc is learning how she doesn't need to be like Elisabet or compare herself to her. Mainly because Aloy learned what being chronically anti-social did to Elisabet and what it was doing to her. So again, that's something that would have been noticed or understood had they played the game in good faith and payed attention to it.

[@razorvonoccam2052]

Omg, I'm dying, you are so spot on with this game and the way it's playing out. Every character just seems to be so awkward. I nearly put the controller down for good after meeting the Ceo.

[@Telimency]

Thank you! I remember being hyped for the first horizon, just to be pushed away by awfully boring writing. I forgot about it and was wondering if that part is better because it looks pretty. And i'm just your typical gamer, forgetting about any problems as soon as i see something shiny.

[@cognitiumone]

The story of the first game is terrible and I skipped all of it, but the fidelity of the environment kept me playing. It felt like I was actually in the woods. I would just travel around killing things for the sake of it, not because I had a quest. I also lived in Colorado for a few years and recognizing landmarks from CO, WY, and, UT was stellar.

[@TheUnknownMist7]

5:30 "why?, why isn't it too dangerous for you then little ms whoops i'm dead goodbye world?"

[@jaykolokithas9329]

I remember yahtzee liking the stock bit of personality in the first one being reasonable since she was outcast. Also her constant desire to talk to herself stems from that. Sadly it sounds like doing the same thing in the second game didn't work after making a bunch of friends in the first game.

[@NotParticularlyWitty]

Thing is this one is set immediately after where she's spent the intervening time trying to restore GAIA, so when exactly is she meant to have had this sudden personality reversal?

[@jaykolokithas9329]

@TheApache287 didn't say she was supposed to have one. Just commented that yahtzee liked the approach in one game but doing it the same in the sequel seemed to not work. I haven't played it yet but still plan to because I enjoy the concept of fighting giant robot dinosaurs

[@NotParticularlyWitty]

@@jaykolokithas9329 except he's complaining about the same character having the same traits... when it takes place right after the first game. It'd be a bit like complaining that Bayonetta is OTT in the sequel when that's something you liked in the first.

[@TheGreenScout]

Yeah I don't get this criticism. Aloy in game went from social outcast to 'literally save the world' in a few days and never stopped. Via the focus and events of the story she's miles ahead in understanding everything old world, and openly frustrated in the intro chapter when Varl, her closest ally, calls a hologram a goddess. She's stressed out of her mind and her very new social support network is unable to support her. Who wouldn't be frustrated and inclined to go it alone? And then the entire plot is focused around her overcoming that outlook, including a characterisation of the same person in two entirely different ways based on upbringing. Dunno how anyone missed that, even Yahtzee rushing the thing saw the critical path

[@anna-flora999]

@@NotParticularlyWitty im wondering that, too. She felt more lively in the first one

[@Hero_Puddle]

I'm not much of a Oneshot fan, but the last chapter makes me think about that collapse scene in Oneshot. It can make for some really great story beats where a main character "to be protected at all costs" has some weight to it. Though Aloy is meant to be a more seasoned warrior and the game is an action game, there's still space for characters to be worried or stressed about the main character.

[@jeremyrichard2722]

Despite all of the socio-politically slanted stuff I type, I actually don't like these sorts of issues, but I am responding with another small essay to an ancient video that wound up in my feed to add some thoughts here that might not have been considered. I think the reason why Eloy is a bad character is because the people writing her really think she is a good character and that's what makes the entire presentation so insufferable and wooden. See, we're in a current era where this is a push for a certain type of "strong, female, character" who in this view has to be a specific way as apparently none of the ones that existed before were good enough. A female character like Eloy can't generally be very social, relational, or emotional because those are typically feminine traits that people have decided are weak. Rather they have to act like the stoic, socially repressed, emotionally stunted male protagonist that many people complained about as somehow that is seen is being strong and defies the feminine tropes. The strong, female, character cannot really have relationships in many case because titillating men is seen to be wrong and unworthy of women. Thus having a relationship with a guy would diminish her, especially if it would seem to make her weaker by caring about someone, or worse yet, men might find that idea appealing. Going the lesbian angle has the same kind of problem because any woman that would be worthy of such a character might also appeal to men, and thus isn't an option. A surprising number of men like girl on girl. Likewise having an inverted relationship dynamic that is clearly "girl on top" even if you went so far as to have her be some kind of dominatrix or whatever, has the same problem as this can ALSO be seen as appealing to men. Especially when when considers that in most such relationships the "sub" has a surprisingly about of say in it. They just haven't gotten the guts yet to have outright slavery of men portrayed as a good thing, so no relationships in most cases. At the same time the reason why she is so stupid and cocky given her special status is because if she actually needed anyone this would also likely diminish her and what she needs to represent. She has to both have the great importance, and be portrayed as being able to handle it on her own as much as possible. We will forget that similarly important male characters have gotten chewed out numerous times for doing stuff like this in various worlds, it's almost stereotypical, but if someone chewed out "strong woman" and happened to be right, then this would diminish them. This is what I think happened here, especially seeing as people talked about the changes of character art between the two games in the series. It is subtle but people noticed she was made a bit less attractive and more manly looking, and on top of that despite this being a sequel not only failed to grow, but seemed to increasingly empathize every problem she had in the previous game as well. Simply put, being accepted from her outcast status, and changing to become more social, would have weakened her, and everything down to her appearance is meant to imply that she is supposed to basically be a woman who is also somehow the epitome of macho lone wolf stereotypes, and the point that people had been mocking that in male characters for a long time is missed, when it's taken to the extreme of stupidity here with a gender inversion. To solve the "Eloy problem" specifically it's not just a writing issue, it's an issue with that entire phenomena which is not unique to this. The people doing this probably put a disturbing about of time into it, but they were working from a checklist of what they felt the society needed a good female character to be, without considering if it made sense, or if anyone would like it. After all the points Eloy represents are more important than anything else, they want to be able to point to the same traits being complained about here, but portray them as all being positives.

[@spas9001]

I have to assume showing footage from Thi4f when Yahtzee was talking about Garrett was some cruel prank on part of the editor

[@TheDoctorOfThrills]

I like that suggested way of characterizing her. It would also he in line with her adrenaline junky decision making. Once you're on that high, social rules go out the fucking window, but they would have no way of telling you to back off bc you just slayed the dragon.

[@averywhitaker3513]

Her what now?

[@JF-um3wz]

Aloy conflicting with the lore would be better if it was intentional. Actually explore how she’s putting the world unnecessarily at risk, make it an actual character flaw that makes her more interesting. Explore her mindset. Maybe she doesn’t consider what happens after the consequences of her actions, even extending to how it’s more than just her dying if she gets killed. Or hell, maybe she’s perfectly aware and doesn’t see any tangible difference to her whether the world goes with her or not. It’s not as if she’d be around for it. Obviously these mindsets are flawed, but that’s what makes good character exploration.

[@basement-dwellingvirgin7099]

yes, even in the 1st game Aloy is a meh character. and it's become more apparent here. I think all those issues stems from the fact that she is the chosen one. there's only so much you can do with that type of character. It'd be cool. if we play as Sylens. A nobody who through sheer will and curiosity manage to find the mystery of the old world

[@RacingSnails64]

Aloy's the only "key" they have, but still wants to fight... That instantly springs to mind the AMAZING story possibility of Aloy WANTING to fight so badly, but knows she can't, leading to her becoming frustrated, sad, and feeling infantilized by others simply trying to protect her. Is that not INSTANT conflict to grapple with? It'd be somewhat similar to Korra (from The Legend Of). Korra's been sheltered her entire upbringing and never allowed to fulfill her duties as the Avatar due to safety, so understandably she wants to just DO things for once, to fulfill her destiny, to stop having choices made for her and finally get to experience life for herself. Maybe this only compounds the reason why Aloy doesn't make for a good open-world action protagonist. I feel this would all be an amazing complex for a deuteragonist/side character to have. A game about such an internal struggle may not be very engaging to play through lol.

[@nomensch7664]

You just summarized The Witcher 3's (main) plot. That game is a master class in slowly making you realize your 'big quest' is just a part of someone's side quest, and the other way around.

[@hdestotallyunoriginalgamin3555]

It is genuinely sad to see how far Horizon has fallen. I absolutely LOVED Zero Dawn, to the point that I played it through to completion five times. I made it a yearly event because it was just such a great game to get immersed in. I found in absolute joy to play. And then we get this. A terribly written sequel with awful, pointless gameplay additions and atrocious control issues. It seems like Guerilla's focus is more on making sure their product ticks a bunch of boxes to satisfy review outlets and corporate mandates than actually making a decent game now. And yet social media is full of people claiming 'Forbidden West is bigger and better in every way.' Baffling.

[@sup3414]

It's like the Bayformers movies: The first installment was amazing and the rest sucked over time.

[@VanessaMagick]

I hated Aloy in the first game too but it is generally much better written. I suppose we have John Gonzales to thank for that.

[@johnnamkeh1290]

I think Horizon Forbidden West kind of exemplifies the work culture that it was created in. Dutch work culture in Amsterdam is, well... what adjectives to use. It's very 'moderated' by social norms, and very 'unidirectional' in that everyone is going towards exactly the same life goals. Sure, people do exciting things but it doesn't reflect in an exciting, expressive personality. There's just not a lot of outward expression of personality in the typical Dutch workplace. People keep that very private with family and friends. So yes, people are direct and outspoken, but also very stoic when it comes to their emotions, especially in the office. Aloy, in my mind, exemplifies this perfectly. The 'millenial' culture in Amsterdam is all about chasing the perfect life and secretly everyone is comparing themselves to everyone else. It's not a good environment to express yourself as 'different'. And because everyone is different from everyone else, you get a work culture that doesn't favour expression of emotions at all. Of course it's an international company but I fear that at least the writing team is somewhat reflective of this cultural trend, and hence you get a character like Aloy. She seems to reflect entirely what the writers think a human should do to attain the goal of saving the world. The writers think about what they think she should do, so they make her do it. Anything else becomes a side matter. The illfitting nature is also an interesting point. I can't imagine a less well-adjusted person to a harsh life in a northern clan than a Dutch 28 year old coffee-sipping Millennial.

[@main_stream_media_is_a_joke]

That analysis of Dutch culture was very interesting to read. I have always had a sneaking suspicion of something being "off" about the Northern European culture and way of life......this perfect setting and perfect life that they seem to project. Either they really are a cut above or sort of fucked up in their outlook. There is a "Stepford Wives" vibe that I get from these people.

[@teldydude7055]

Yahtzee: *publishes extra punctuation* Me: *frantically takes down notes*

[@dr.pastrami5272]

This video justifies why I shut off the voice & diologue halfway through the first game and narrated my own saturday morning cartoon starring betty bolts.

[@l3vair_903]

I found it real silly how the entire plot and game tells the player to go save the world go go go no distractions meanwhile you can go around and do side quests for 20+ hours. Guess the end of the world can wait a day.

[@davidmurphy7332]

It's a good point, but it's an inherent problem with ticking clock plots in open-world games. For me, this is why Arkham City is worse than Arkham Asylum because there's quite a literal ticking clock supposedly driving things forward in the former but you can quite easily spend hours pissing about with Riddler trophies with no consequence. It's much better for these types of games to have innate and/or existential threats like the slumbering Calamity Gannon in Breath of the Wild

[@davidmurphy7332]

But of course, the one open-world game that did marry that plot type with an open world successfully was The Outer Wilds - in fact, that was the whole point of the game.

[@BumbleCrumble1072]

I have the same problem with the plot of Cyberpunk 2077. Your characters only has a few months left to live, lets fuck around Night City.

[@John-996]

Witcher 3 had this issue as well. Same with Cyberpunk.

[@awsomeboy360]

@@davidmurphy7332 Lmfao. NO. Arkham City is NOT worst than Asylum. Stop.

[@scaper12123]

You know what games characterize these types of characters right? Monster Hunter. They hunt vicious and fearsome monsters with giant swords and hammers and handheld HIMARS artillery cannons, and in World and especially Rise all the characters are constantly upbeat, outgoing, optimistic, and do everything with a flourish and sometimes a song-and-dance. It does a great job of reinforcing the fact that their lifestyle kicks ass

[@neganick]

I felt like Aloy got over the whole "I have to do this myself" thing before the halfway point of the game when it nearly gets her killed and Varl saves her. I guess they could have had that character arc pay off earlier in the game to avoid getting on people's nerves, but it didn't really bother me. Still good writing advice.

[@rickmay1188]

The most interesting thing about Aloy is her hair. It's like Medusas Weave on Bath salts. Seriously, I laughed more than once when she sat down, or looked left, or stood ramrod still...

[@graemevaughey7432]

My biggest issue with the _Horizon_ games has always been how bloody serious they take themselves. The concept is basically just _Cavemen vs Robot Dinosaurs with Rocket-launchers._ For Christ's sake: that's not Shakespeare, that's a Saturday morning cartoon and toy line from the 1980s. Could we maybe, possibly have some *FUN* with it? The gameplay is enjoyable enough whenever you encounter some enormous new beast for the first time and have to work out how to take it down, but the story is such a drag, and seems utterly determined to drain all possible joy from the proceedings.

[@DrMcFly28]

I love Horizon games, but is true that I like them in spite of Aloy, not because of her. I admit I usually skipped most of the dialogue, but she still grated me with her reacting to massive deadly battles the same way I would when unexpectedly called by a telemarketer.

[@vawlkus]

yeah. In the first game it kinda made sense since Aloy didn't know who to trust to get the job done, but after the fight against Hades, she DID know who to lean on. Instead, she ditches everyone and runs, REPEATEDLY. The lessons she learned from Sylens probably did give her trust issues, but not to this extent. Speaking of: DAMN does the actor who plays Sylens do a HELLUVA job making him an unlikable genius. Full marks for his performance, he's actually my favorite character in the games

[@nameynamd9212]

Don't feel it probably excuses it all, but the sudden realization of what actually happened and what Sylens mentions upon discovering it(while not always telling everything and being deceptive, he doesn't lie), which for after Hades is a bit questionable, but at least after getting the embassy ready, she doesn't want to wait for Erend to recover at least.

[@Just4Fun-Zocker]

There was a time when I was seriously thinking about trying the first Horizon game, because it looked interesting. But on the other hand I was sick of the millionth typical open world action adventure. The world and premise seem very interesting, I should give it a try. But what if I hate it or if I find it boring because it's the exact copy pasted open world gameplay again? Even just 20 bucks is too much if I end up not playing the game. So it went back and forth in my head over the years. And then one day I saw a short clip from the game on KZbin, that told me all I needed to know about the main character. Saying "My eyes are up here" to a guy who wasn't even trying to look down. Those 80 seconds saved me some money and a lot of my nerves.

[@princessthyemis]

OH MY GOD THANK YOU!!!!!! This comment section makes me sooo happy! I legit thought I was THE ONLY ONE that hated Aloy! She was so bossy and unlikable in the first game, I thought, and she's terrible here too! She's more likeable by a SMIDGEON, and that's more in the side quests then the main story--overall, she's still super BLAND! She's arrogant, bossy, bored by everyone, dislikes almost everyone she meets, and IS SO CONDESENDING! There's so many people who could help her, but nope, she just has to go "Oh I'm automatically smarter than you so that makes me better than you in every way!" Seriously, why the fuck didn't they make her more likable from the start?! I think it's because the writers went, "She's female and thus must have zero flaws and needs to be perfect in every way." She's BORING! She doesn't even look scared when fighting a big machine for the first time! Come on! Fear is humanizing! At least a little doubt! But she NEVER learns or struggles!!

[@sumeunggai5665]

This is a great analysis of the state of character/dialogue writing in MSM in general. Organic, inspired character motivation is often wayward, disconnected or missing altogether.

[@stevenkennedy6870]

Thank You this is how i felt in Horizon Zero Dawn yet everyone was giving the game 9/10 because sandbox combat vs Robot Dinos is fun

[@dylanhendley5003]

i mean yes, having one subjectvely negative aspect of your protagonist does not justify more than knocking off half a point at most on a scale. a game is first and foremost a game, if it's fun, not particularly buggy, looks good, and the general story and lore are good, thats already a 7/10. 8/10 if theyve got music and sound good, and those last couple points are general polish and subjective opinion. If you find Aloy to be a bad character, awesome, that character type isn't for you, I don't find Link particularly likeable or Master Chief or Nathan Drake, but I'm not gonna knock more than small percentage off for something like that. at worst ill mute dialog and read subtitles.

[@SolaScientia]

I tried to play it. I'm glad I got it free last year during the Play At Home deal Sony had going on. I got through the main quests and side quests only up until I was in the middle of helping that one group clear 3 bandit camps: the 2 small ones and then the big one in the stadium ruins. I kept getting wrecked by enemies, because my AI compatriots were useless at any actual fighting and machines would blitz me even when I was being cautious. Anyway, I stopped the game for a break and then just didn't pick it up again. I finally uninstalled it to make room for some games I actually wanted to play and I realized then just how bored I was. Aloy as a kid was interesting and I liked how they had her move how real children do: that ungainly stumbling of when a kid gets walking/running too fast and barely keeps their balance. It was when I was exploring that I started feeling both overwhelmed and bored, if that makes sense. I couldn't go more that what felt like 50 yards before running into machine herds which I needed to kill or avoid, and I usually just rode through them as fast as possible because I couldn't be bothered to right them all yet again. I don't mind characters mumbling to themselves. Booker DeWitt's talking in BioShock Infinite isn't overly done. Ethan's observations in RE7 are also fine. Aloy does it too much though. I tend to talk aloud when gaming, whether it's swearing or just thinking aloud about what I need to do next. I don't need a character making the same observations at me. I got very sarcastic toward the end of my stint playing HZD. "Oh really, Aloy. Is that what that is? Oh, should we go do that? I wouldn't have thought to go there or do that." and so on.

[@stevenkennedy6870]

@@dylanhendley5003 I’d agree with you if the main story side quests all didnt have dialogue choices and zoomed in on their faces so you can see how words leave their mouths like these types of movie like games need a great story and characters if not then its just a 6/10 game at best even if u consider the gameplay sound and graphics great

[@stevenkennedy6870]

@@SolaScientia Couldnt agree more those first 2 hours of aloy as a kid getting ready for the trial and competing was fun felt like a 9/10 game minus the boring tutorial after that its a boring grind too the finish i regret paying $30 for it

[@SolaScientia]

@@stevenkennedy6870 Yes! Those first few hours were so interesting and fun to me. I could feel myself getting invested in her and her character. Then they had to kill off Rost for character development reasons and I felt annoyed. I mean, I figured he was going to get killed off, so I was making some remarks to that affect during cutscenes and such, lol. I also didn't like how they killed off those other 2 kids (the jerk one and the friendly girl), because I wouldn't have minded working with them. I still have Forbidden West in my wishlist, but I'll likely remove it soon since I definitely wouldn't get it until I finish HZD and I doubt I ever will. If I'd paid for HZD I'd have been very disappointed.

[@damonsghost9235]

I knew it! If she had hooked up with someone people would love it. Aloy grew up hunting machines. Sylens was doing the same thing as aloy but she found a better way to do it.

[@Robert399]

There's nothing wrong with stoic heroes as long as writers realise that their stoicism's not what makes them interesting. The problem comes when juvenile writers think that being stoic in conversations is cool so the more they include the better.

[@GQSmoos]

I’m not a smart man but even I came upon the thought of ‘Aloy is literally humanity’s only hope but still takes these absurd risks’. Just look at the way she uses a rappel point. She jumps freefall off a cliff hundreds of feet in the air, turns around midair, and throws her grapple line back up to the rappel point! That’s absolutely insane.

[@johnwerner6445]

Haha I was just about to write the same thing. Grapple it first then slide down

[@leowulf5280]

I recently finished playing Yakuzas 0-6 and I think Kazuma Kiryu does so much of what Yhatzee is talking about here very well. He's a stoic unflappable badass but also a super well rounded character with complex relationships. We also know exactly what Kiryu would do if he weren't constantly getting dragged back into Yakuza business. He'd run his orphanage and do his best at being a dad to his kids.

[@moonmoon2479]

Kiryu is also growing, funny, and his traits are contrasted against him. This man is a stoic badass, but when he sees a woman on the street yelling about needing a visa, but isn’t speaking properly so he hears that she needs a pizza, this man jumps in to get the woman a pizza in an epic foot race. He also isn’t acting like an ass to everyone. When people talk to him, he doesn’t roll his eyes or get snooty with everyone, he is kind and empathetic. He also puts 200% into everything he does, but that means everything. He gets WAY too into karaoke and hotwheel racing (called pocket circuit), he puts all of his night into fighting enemies but also puts all he’s got on the dance floor. Quite simply, Kiryu is everything the devs wish Aloy was.

[@KingOfElectricNinjas]

It's actually pretty common in a lot of video games and related media to have your typical stoic strait-laced protagonist to be the counterpoint to a wacky and/or dramatic tone, the straight man and anchor in a wild world that can be relied on, and often give many of the funniest lines himself just by responding seriously to others. Heck, a lot of versions of Batman are that way, making nearly anything funny by taking it entirely seriously, especially himself.

[@jakekingston5075]

I'm reminded of various Zelda games watching this video. Link often has a character that motivates his initial answering of the call to adventure. Aryll in Wind Waker, Ilia and the kids in Twilight Princess or Zelda herself in Skyward Sword. The saving the world bit always comes later and I feel that's a super effective way of avoiding a "you're the hero because the plot says so" kind of situation. Ties the character to the world, at least initially.

[@Buriedwithdrawingpad]

She's just so mean. There's one side quest helping a blind musician and his friend get a part and it's so refreshing to see Aloy actually be happy and smile when she brings him the part, then it's gone, back to hating everyone, even those who've helped her from the first game.

[@TheoHiggins]

I'm consistently impressed that you manage to keep the entire nation of Denmark on your supporters list