HOT WATER TAKES A LONG TIME TO REACH TAPS - HOW TO GET HOT WATER FASTER! Wilo Secondary Return Pump

[@plumberparts]

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[@MikeMcDaniels-w1u]

Great Job! There must be 20 'end of line, thermal check valve' system explanations on the internet. Your explanation is the only REAL 3 line system. These silly two line systems make the cold water warm! So you end up running the cold line, to get the warm water out! hahaha. 😂

[@marklawrence8517]

Wish every plumber took as much care as this chap. Especially the pipe directions on the floor boards. Don't you just hate the way he is able to "guesstimate" the bend radius and it's perfect. first time every time (show off!!). Fab video thanks very much really benefitted from watching it.

[@pumpkinhead456]

I installed the exact same pump to as close to the final tap as I could. Hot water time down from 40 seconds to 6 seconds. It's an expensive little fella to buy, but at 5 Watts soooo cheap to run and works a treat!

[@raycollington4310]

This channel is very informative to us amateur plumbers and from the ones I’ve met, a lot of professionals too. I held tight!

[@anthonysykes542]

Watched a lot of your videos, very informative! Certainly the best Plumb-Tube here. I was watching in the hope to learn how to increase hot water pressure on a gravity fed system, takes about 2 minutes for 1 litre of water from our kitchen tap! It got worse ever since I replaced the deck mixer tap which claims to work on a 0.2-5.0bar system. Stressful times trying to find a black and stainless steel/chrome mixer tap which will work with such low pressure. Keep up the good work and quality videos

[@yt66228]

Put this in my house 30 years ago. I installed a small diameter pipe as a return manifoid so all taps in house can be reached. Love it!

[@ebebop]

I had my pump connected to movement sensors at each tap so it only came on when it was needed. Worked perfect. I will be installing it in my new house. Mine was more like 1 second the beauty of plumbing the house from scratch.

[@tlangdon12]

Movement sensors near the taps is a great way to avoid running the pump when there is no chance of hot water being drawn off. .

[@sr.gateau]

I'm setting up a smart motion activated light switch to automatically turn on a smart plug the pump is connected to. Any number of smart motion activated light switches in various locations can activate the pump for a set time - in my case one minute should do it.

[@Audiotechnical]

Loving that video (as always!) James. I've become pretty obsessed with your channel mate, and in this video, now totally understand my secondary return pipe that runs into my hot water cylinder. Loving all your content. I see the insulation on our return circuit is fairly naff, so I'm going to make that my task to tidy it all up. Love a bit of gaffa tape!

[@robconnolly6614]

Just another thought, as the flow rate is so low to cater for the heat loss, you could use 10 mm pipe for the return. Can save on joints as well as a bit of cash. I’ve got a 20 m run on one return with a 2 m dead leg and the shower is hot in 3 to 4 seconds. Nice video 👍

[@plumberparts]

Rob Connolly mate that is a top idea! Wish I’d thought of that!!!

[@stevecraft00]

I came here to ask this! 10mm seems perfect for the return as long as the pump is ok with this.

[@robconnolly6614]

10 mm is fine, the heat loss on a well insulated 10mm Pipe is low compared to the load on a 15mm feed to a rad, so the volume flow rate is small.

[@rickbaguley7997]

I think it is normal practice to run the return in a pipe size lower

[@robertharvey9698]

We have a return pump as we have a massive distance to the kitchen sink. When we moved in there was a very simple timer & almost no insulation on the pipe runs. It would be impossible to add the insulation so I’ve made the pump Alexa voice controlled. Just ask it to turn on the hot water pump & it runs for 5 mins & shuts off. You just need to ask it to turn on just before you want hot water in the kitchen & it works fine. It was taking a whole bowl of wasted water before, now it’s only a litre or so. No need to turn it off as the pump only runs for a short time. Nice quick fix 👍.

[@danquestnorth768]

Exactly what I'm about to do with our vacation cottage.

[@RonaldDCass]

Eight or ten years ago, I installed a "point of use" 2 gallon electric water heater in our kitchen (12 or more feet from main water heater) for "instant" hot water. Hot water from main heater enters through the "point of use" unit so no loss of hot water, only the amount that cools off in the supply line from main to auxiliary unit. I have moved & installed same in new house.

[@paulowen-iy6vm]

I did a simular thing, But for different reasons. a small 10 litre cylinder is a good simple solotion. We live in the country, no gas, only oil and at the time only electic showers, so using oil to heat a tank of hot water to wash hands. (we have a log burner with boiler for winter hot water) so put 10 litre hot water cylinder and fed the taps with a 2nd feed, using isolation valves to switch the feeds summer to winter. It worked brilliantly and saved best part of a tank of oil a year. Now we have solar thermal and solar PV, which works great espcially in the summer, (and we even get paid £1k a year through the RHI and FIT too) But I need to solve the problem of a long time to run hot water through to the far taps, (House is 65 ft long) hence coming here to learn more, and will fit a return loop during the kitchin refurb. This video is imfomative

[@ddoubledutch4783]

Great teacher. I install and love learning. Class

[@johnburns4017]

This is the first I have heard anyone say you cannot use plastic pipe on a secondary circulation loop. You *can* use plastic pipe, best to try and make it plastic barrier pipe. Best to have the return pipe to the cylinder a small bore, as the water only needs to move slowly.

[@radfoo]

Brilliant, remember you mentioning this as an upcoming video a few months ago and was looking forward to seeing how it all worked. Thank you.

[@johnburns4017]

The dead-leg can be overcome by fitting instant electric taps, like a Qooker boiling water tap fed from the hot water draw-off from the cylinder (there are a number of makers). It would need to be a mains pressure system, like a: combi, DHW only thermal store or unvented cylinder. Qookers are a design feature in a kitchen these days with many prepared to pay for looks alone. Qookers also eliminate an electric kettle giving more room on the worktop surface, eliminating trailing electric leads. That means small children cannot reach up then grab electric kettle leads, pulling boiler water over themselves. A secondary circulation loop drags lots of heat from the cylinder over a day which will be wasted, and costs money in bills, no matter how much insulation you put on the pipes. I installed a secondary hot water circulation pump in a large house, with two bathrooms remote from the cylinder. I fitted a movement sensor in each bathroom, that only brought in the pump when people were in the bathrooms. It pumped out the hot water fast enough. Using the sensors means the pump only operates when needed, not on a timer. So even during the night, instant hot water at the taps, with no timer holding the pump out.

[@5084204]

Very clever idea with movement sensors. Well done! Did you use any particular system, or was it complete DIY?

[@johnburns4017]

@@5084204 All easily available parts.

[@webmastermail8]

I thought the common excepted hot/cold setup was hot always on the left how comes a plumbers house has the hot on the right ?

[@rmower3428]

Quality work master James

[@cubanlinx]

I gotta insulate my pipes - been singing this all day... thanks! 🔥

[@Holler_Rat]

Love converting your celsius temps to fahrenheit. So much fun!

[@lukemitchell6146]

Hello sir, thanks for your knowledge! Thought there was one point I was hoping to find the answer to. Do you know if you can tee off the hot return so you can circulate hot water in 2 or more areas? Or will the water short circuit and only loop around the nearest point if done like that? Is the only option to run/ loop the return at the last point? Thanks and HOLD TIGHT! 🫡

[@richardpennclark1739]

Hi . Just enjoyed your video. I'm thinking of using this on our bathroom refurb. Please remind me. Why can't you do the pipework in plastic? Surly plastic pipe is as resistant to things as copper. Would it make a difference if the water was softened? Thanks Richard

[@muddyfunker3014]

Mate you are actually a legend. I'm currently redoing an upstairs bathroom at mine and have this exact problem. Haven't watched video yet but no doubt you'll have a solution. Thanks for sharing your knowledge 👍🏻

[@claudioscola]

OMFG I did not know this existed. It's genius! Thanks so much!

[@gimpalopagus]

Mate, I just bulk boil my water and then freeze it for later, boiling water whenever I need it just sitting there.

[@rogermannerings7092]

Bulk boiled water is just silly. Use packets of dehydrated water. It’s a lot easier to store and carry about.

[@becton98]

Pair of fools, dehydrate your water and then pop it in a ziplock bag in the freezer, this saves space and keeps the boiling water fresh

[@rogermannerings7092]

You have not allowed for the colesaireal reaction which occurs when dehydrated water approaches the incorrect temperature. I have destroyed at least two freezers misusing this method, there may hve been more but I wasn't in the house at the time so I cant be blamed.@@becton98

[@becton98]

@@rogermannerings7092 you're only right as well!, I was wondering why my freezer was a steady 55 Celsius

[@davidoshea1536]

Great video bud.👍 Very informative, looking forward to seeing the next one.🌟

[@UberAlphaSirus]

19:30 Dat insulate my pipe song doe! Gonna play that in the van. Glad to see your bathroom is coming on fast, just like mine.

[@Jeffopar]

My system is the exact opposite. My cold water is hot and I have to wait for cold water. BTW, your flying videos are so much better.

[@tyowen5674]

Do any of these pumps come with sensors that switch on the pump if the water in the pipes fall below a certain temperature?

[@markgilder9990]

Great video. Think I’ll install an instantaneous water heater under the kitchen sink. Boom, drop the mic.😂😂😎

[@razer192]

Would be a lot better than all that messing about and still having 3/4 of a bowel of waist water think this was a total waist of time and money tbh

[@floatybisquit]

I agree about time people ditched hot water tanks and immersions!!

[@robconnolly6614]

You can also electrically trace heat the flow pipe, before insulating. I think it works out around £100 for a 10 metre run including pipe contact thermostat. Works for combi’s

[@otw5974]

Not heard this one, but I understand the principal. However, with an unvented combi how will DHW expansion be accommodated, as I presume the trace will pre-heat the static water?

[@robconnolly6614]

@@otw5974 You can fit a small expansion vessel on the DHW to pick up any expansion. They are around £20

[@otw5974]

As I have a combi boiler, and therefore cannot use a DHW sec return, I've had an idea of installing an inline instantaneous water heater on the hot feed to our farthest (problem) outlet. The idea being that the heater would provide instant 'hot' (~36oC) water and then, if ran for long enough, the primary hot water would come through at ~50oC, causing the stat to turn the heater off. Apparently the max inlet temperatures can be up to ~60oC on these instantaneous heaters. Would be interesting to compare cost of materials and labour and then running costs of each solution.

[@davidkargbo3132]

Job well done and appreciated your efforts keep it up. Why is my HOT WATER so hot when I switch the mixer to the hand shower? THE HOT WATER can't mix at all. Should it be the MIXER that has the problem? Thanks so much you are very wonderful.

[@martynbuzzing3327]

Thanks for that. I’m not understanding if the shower gets hot water faster as well as the faraway kitchen tap.

[@barriedear5990]

We had a secondary return fitted in our house around 17 years ago, IN PLASTIC. Is this an issue. Have also seen on other you-tube, that plastic is OK, as long as you have on a timer to switch off daily. Secondary return services 4 bedrooms, 3 bathrooms, kitchen and utility, really wouldn't want to swap out for copper at this stage. Works a treat though.

[@scottlittlewood4527]

Barrie Dear Ask for a refund!

[@bikerchrisukk]

Great bit of kit, is this the first of it's kind, cos I remember something similar from a fair while ago. Always recommend it to clients as something to consider when other stuff is getting ripped out / put in anyway. Seen some cheaper ideas for a thermo valve that redirects the cold water out to a water butt, then flows inside when hot enough. Still means delay but at least no wasted water and veg /plants get fed, also a lot less work needed. All the best and Hold.... ....Tight 👍

[@kat_i_mac]

40 seconds? Mine takes 5 minutes!!! Plumber said that's just something I'm just going to have to get used to... thanks for this video

[@gav44]

Is there a way of improving hot water delivery from a combi boiler with no tank?

[@geoffcarlton4047]

Yep, move the boiler closer to the sink, or the sink closer to the boiler.

[@tomhill54]

Some combis have a preheat function that might help a little..

[@Richard-ij8ge]

Look up combisave

[@neiltitmus9744]

Smaller pipework be handy if a boiler could preheat the pipework through

[@lovingitlots]

Is it possible to go a shorter more direct route with the feed maybe

[@policematrixx]

I wouldn't like to comment on their product from 10 years ago, but the issue with their current product not being suitable for hot water return is due to the standard that they manufacture to changing to stop those products being used for a secondary return. That change was down to a failure of someone's product, made to that standard, some years ago that caused a huge incident, that then caused BS to withdraw the allowance of products manufactured to their standard to be used for secondary returns. The cause of that incident was eventually found to be installer related and not a product issue, but British Standards are still not happy to change back to allowing products manufactured to their standards to be used for secondary return hot water pipe work. In short, even if it were down to oxygen in the system, it would still affect metal systems much more than any plastic system. As I commented before, we have installed thousands of return systems in projects from single family homes, to hotels, 1,200 apartment multi residential developments, commercial and industrial. Our products are not only tested and approved for use on return systems in Europe, but also most developed countries around the world, including America. The issue is with the BS standard in the UK that the UK companies test their manufacturing, materials and designs to.

[@VivDiwakar]

Mate, you're a funny bugger!! Love the singing!!

[@EmsillCazm]

I am just in the middle of doing my kitchen extension, front porch with cloakroom, utility room and an ensuite, I have fed a separate hot water feed from the hot water cylinder to each of the taps that run in opposite directions to each other this gets over the problem of the hot water having to run around the house to feed........ lets say, The kitchen, utility room & then the cloakroom,

[@maddogcustoms9207]

Morning, may i ask why you decided to go for a hot water boiler system over a combi boiler in your house? Would love to know your reasoning. We are going to go refurb a bungalow into a double story and all batherooms and kitche will be located within 25/35m from the water heating system, give or take that is. Love all your videos btw, thanks

[@halfassed911]

When I heard the "insulate my pipe" song I had to like and subscribe.

[@plumberparts]

Cheers dude! There's loads of songs strewn around my videos!

[@carnutal3627]

Lovely video BUT was all that work worth it? It saved about what 10 seconds time?

[@MARTINA-gc3tq]

If using this or any similar system use PEX not copper or ensure the copper pipes are not close to incoming cold water supply.

[@mx986]

Interesting vid thanks :) Not sure why you can't use plastic though ? (as in 'real life' issues rather than regs).

[@jpfrench1496]

I thought exactly the same. Can’t see why you can’t use plastic? When it’s fine on any other hot water supply.

[@martinspencer9950]

Pipe Manufacturers instructions say so !

[@barnaby5896]

Who remembers when James started doing that little bathroom a long time ago 😂

[@bsl849]

Great video, very comprehensive. Q: should it be done in 22m copper pipe to serve 6 bathrooms & utility & kitchen?

[@pumpkinhead456]

Long shot that you'll read this in time, but what are the Union fittings going in to this pump? Did you just use 1 inch to an end feed fitting? Done the pipework all the way to this particular pump now!

[@heatpump8566]

I’ve got 6 dhw outlets and chipboard flooring. I’ve decided instead of what you’ve done, I’ll fit a bronze pump on the cold feed into the cylinder. Will achieve a similar result with no added pipework . I’ll probably use the wilo pump

[@spencerwilton5831]

Paul Turner You don't want to be returning hot water from the top of your tank to the bottom- it sounds like that's what you're planning? The whole point of a cylinder is that they stay hot at the top, and cool water is added at the bottom. You'll end up mixing the tank and just have lukewarm water until the whole tank has recovered. It will also destroy the efficiency of your boiler which relies on the lower return temperatures from the bottom of the tank to run in condensing mode. You will notice you get more vapour from the boiler flu after a shower or bath is run and the boiler is getting properly cold water returned to it. As the tank heats, the vapour reduces. Your design would mean you were constantly trying to heat already warm water.

[@heatpump8566]

Spencer Wilton hi mate no I have only done that with a stratification pump on horizontal cylinders. You use my method when you don’t have a secondary return tap in. It works really well

[@boggy7665]

I replaced a long run of large-bore galvanized pipe with 1/4" PEX. Much less water in the pipe, flows a much faster face velocity when the tap is opened. Works for me because the water pressure in our city is high - around 80 psi, maybe - and the draw rate at the kitchen sink faucet, with its aerator, is relatively low. Flow rate seems the same, but the hot water comes much, much faster. You can do calculations to see if it'll work for you. It's been too long since I've gone to school, so don't ask me to do those calculations for you, sorry!

[@dombaker6210]

Love the uphill toilet soil pipe at 5:20.

[@carguillo1]

Hi Jame ( best plumber on youtube ) just put a non-return valve on my kitchen tap and now it takes about 3min to come through do you know what it could be thanks mate /kev in EPSOM

[@crazyb4spoons]

Should definitely release an album of the banging tracks on iTunes 😂

[@petervine3488]

For a plumber, why is the hot on the right, when most people expect the hot on the left?

[@Peter-un8no]

It is hot and cold on the right on his tap, he pulled the lever out to tun on, the left is for filtered water

[@petervine3488]

If that's the case, I stand corrected, just looked wrong when I saw him open the right tap for hot water, must take a while to get use to opening a tap one way for hot, and another way for cold.

[@danquestnorth768]

Saw that & thought they must plumb hot & cold reversed in the UK! 🤔

[@richardaird2880]

Hi, just watched your vid on secondary return hot water. Did you just tee into the the existing hot water draw off from the cylinder? Only the vid doesn’t show you making the final connection into the hot water draw off. Regards

[@dabay200]

For the return pipe can you use a smaller diameter pipe (e.g. 10mm or 8mm) to save on copper and water, since the flow rate through the pump is tiny? Also can you hook up multiple return pipes to the same pump or is it only 1 return pipe per pump?

[@stephenweston1807]

Although implicit you don't mention the fact that under the old system, when you turn the kitchen tap off you have unpteen litres of hot water, which you've paid good money to heat, left to cool down in the pipe. So that's another saving.

[@speedboatbuilder]

Great video!... just one question... can you install a secondary pump like this and also a twin impeller shower pump on the same circuit? (i.e. to solve the problems of both low pressure and having to run hot taps for ages with a gravity fed open vented cylinder)

[@ron4569]

I live in Spain and have a 100L electric water heater which is located in the garage, the kitchen tap is about 35m from this. I have the same problem with the time it takes for the hot water to arrive. In spain is the existing copper pipes are buried into the wall, so there is no way to insulate them, fitting new pipe is possible though in the underbuild but as an alternative, what do you think about me fitting a smaller 15L under sink electric water heater in series with hot water line from the existing tank to act as a heat buffer? Something like an Ariston Andris R10? This would also mean when I dont need the 100L tank I could just use the smaller tank?

[@wilbauk]

Would you consider a bypass valve to dial in the required flow around the circuit and reduce unnecessary load on the pump?

[@001cvr]

My combi has the same oroblem ,can you do a video of same for improvements of hot water flow and pressure

[@sween187]

Mount the two sets of copper pipes together and insulate them as 1 unit, that way the return is being heated by the pipe going to the sink, (might help)

[@sr.gateau]

The return would always be somewhat cooler than the supply so it wouldn't really help.

[@robmarrin6720]

The house you are in I'd say from the plumbing work I've done in similar homes in Whirlow and bakewell UK is around 850k conservatively 👍

[@nicodavies3725]

There’s a few ways 1. If you’ve got a combi boiler could be due to low pressure 2. The main heat exchanger could be blocked with magnesium and calcium effecting the heat transfer. 3. The stop tap may not be fully open. 4.if you have a water heater the thermocouple may need replacing or cleaning and 5. If you’ve an unvented cylinder and the property is quite large with a numerous amount of en-suite and bathrooms then you may need to install a secondary return on the hot so that you’re not drawing off so much cold water.

[@nicodavies3725]

If you have some type of primary multipoint water heater in the attic or somewhere where you’ll lose heat then maybe the pipes need lagging.

[@smitajky]

I just have the tank near the kitchen tap which is the one that is used frequently. About 1m of pipe. It takes half a litre of water to get the hot through. About 2 to 3 seconds. It does take more to reach the shower but we take our showers consecutively without turning off the water so it takes a half a bucket of water initially. You see not only do we need to save water as we live on tank water in an arid environment but we ALSO need to avoid wasting heat as we grow and chop our own firewood. We don't want to waste that either.

[@davidlee-taylor3792]

Hi m8, best way of doing what you’ve done to a gravity fed system. I’d love hot water quicker to my kitchen sink please 👍

[@jamesgalloway8835]

Great solution if you can pull up floorboards etc. ... but if you can’t it 8s not much use. We couldn’t. So, we installed an 15 litre Ariston under counter heater on a timed fused spur. Much cheaper and easier and achieves the same effect.

[@williamstewart208]

Hi James, I wonder if you might advise me as to whether it is easy enough to change my white key filling point for the newer blue no key filler on my Worcester Bosch boiler….and if so how or where I would get the parts. many thanks in advance..Willie.

[@FlyingFun.]

Shame I have a combi boiler in my house now, takes ages for hot water to come through.

[@WhiskeyGulf71]

I have over come this problem as i too have a combi & even though i live in a small flat the water takes ages to come through hot especially as i have the worse make for this problem, Ideal. My ideal boiler has a switch on it to keep the water hot, it does nothing ! So i have installed an inline water heater, it holds about 10 litres i think, it lives under my kitchen sink in the cupboard & the hot water from the boiler passes through this small emersion heater, thus when i turn on the hot tap i have very hot water in a few seconds. The temperature is adjustable up to 70°C. Because it is fed from the boiler the water never runs cold. It’s 3kw but it doesn’t use much electricity, most likely more efficient than a pump circulating hot water.

[@FlyingFun.]

@@WhiskeyGulf71 thanks, i wondered if something like this was possible. Will look into it.

[@WhiskeyGulf71]

@@FlyingFun. i bought it second hand on ebay for £20, it’s an ariston unvented, 10 litre capacity, 3kw under-sink water heater.

[@chrispointer2474]

Can you 2 secondary runs off one tank? I have a run I can do in the 1st floor of the house but I also have a second floor with two en suites. Should I just run one loop and get the loop as close to all the taps and showers on both floors or can I run two loops with two pumps so I can turn the upper loop off when there are no guests and just family in the house who only occupy the 1st two floors and not the top floor?

[@gf5328]

Great video. Very informative. 👏. Is the reason that you can not use this as a shower pump simply because it’s weak compare to a shower pump incase you open more than 1 tap and need much more force to push the water than a bronze pump?

[@gf5328]

And I’ve only ever seen them on return near to cylinder. But a comment and your other video showed them on flow even tho you have it on the rerun in this video. Not that I’ll ever put it on the flow but can it be installed on flow?

[@davideserin]

I use a Quooker Combi kettle tap and get hot water in 1 second, it's really good, secondhand units for £500, easy install under the counter, but limited to 15L of 60C water and 7L of boiling.

[@C4sp3r123]

Can anyone expand on why plastic can't be used? I heard what was said in the video at 8:40 but why can't you have plastic on a constantly replenishing supply line? That point wasn't explained. Thanks.

[@plumberparts]

I asked the plastics pipe suppliers and they said if it fails they won't cover it, nor will your insurance. Didn't really get a definative reason why other than constantly replenished systems have a more 'abrasive' water due to hardness. But it's still fairly vague!

[@simonclarke6970]

@@plumberparts That sounds like nonsense, surely any hot or cold water pipe is constantly replenishing?

[@C4sp3r123]

@@plumberparts Thanks for taking the time to reply, I agree the suppliers reply seems fairly vague and doesn't really make sense to me but thanks for taking the time out to try and answer my question.

[@pumpkinhead456]

@@C4sp3r123 from all my reading, and for the interest of others, it's to do with the testing through British Standards, most likely that plastic pipes have never been tested to ensure they are compliant. There is a couple of brands that are tested to European standards that are fine, most manufacturers have a clear warning not to use it, which will violate insurance and building warrants etc. In practice, it's most likely absolutely fine, but I've never tested it!

[@barryhill9051]

Hi 👋 I'm just a DIYer and my hot water is on a combination boiler on the ground floor about 50mt from my on suite on 15mm copper and takes around 90sec to reach the tap. How can I resolve this. Thanks Barry.

[@michaelstokes4497]

Could have made the end of the loop by the kitchen sink where the spur is going to. Would have cut loads of time of the second test.

[@stephenporter5796]

I've a combi boiler, 6ft from the kitchen sink. despite the boiler firing up on the turn of the tap it takes at least 1/2 minute before the water is up to a warm temperature.

[@shifty277]

Loving the new track! Please do a studio BTS session of you going absolutely bananas with a pint of ale whacking out such rhythmic hip hop bangers! Hold tite!

[@simonrous2191]

I worry about the cost of the electricity of running the pump many hours a day plus heat loss from the circuit. Would it be better to have a local mini tank near the kitchen tap or an on-demand hot electric tap?

[@boomdox5843]

That bloody song 😂🤣 brilliant

[@andreswanepoel4826]

Great tip. Where did you tie in the return line from the wilo pump? On the boiler's pressure safety valve?

[@sr.gateau]

It ties back into the line feeding the heater.

[@ratchriat1716]

you found a solution I was looking for.

[@KevinRoseYT]

Have I missed something here? The water returning, according to the diagram, has to go back to the cylinder. I didn't see another unused point on the cylinder to allow the return pipework to be connected to.

[@richardlewis5316]

The pumped return system is fine for a system with a tank but will not work for a combi system which can take 40 seconds to get the hot water intro the sink or shower. I have devised a system to pump the drawn off water into a holding tank in the the loft which can then be used to fill the toilets. This works fine unless no water used so I have a mains water back up into the toilets. Saves a bit of water but doesn't really justify the cost of the installation.

[@jamesrowe5047]

Hi James. This might be a really stupid question and I apologise in advance. When installing the pump would I need a sparky to do the electrics?

[@rickbaguley7997]

Love all your video's :)

[@davidpotter3717]

Would it have been easier to install a small instantaneous electric water heater under the sink?

[@nedbundy4956]

Does this pump need a permanent live feed or switched live ??

[@doncodman913]

Hi great vid ... what is all that foil under the boards please ?? regards Don

[@timmclean-inglis9371]

Brass you will get dezinkefication , Porosity in brass ,use bronze or stainless steel

[@chrisharris1442]

How would I achieve this if I have a combo boiler?? Is there anything I could do?? Is there such a thing as a pump operated by a flow sensor that only operates when the hot tap is opened ????

[@richardkingadi5511]

I'm wondering if there is any way of doing this with a gas Combi boiler ??

[@mitch3683]

Hears one for ya, combo boiler on grd flr, bath 3m at 1st floor. Fully open hot tap and water is Luke warm, turn tap down water heats up and takes forever to fill bath🤷‍♂️ any ideas how I can achieve hot water whilst opening the tap full on 👍

[@philippeantonietti]

I got a leak in my hot water copper pipe which circulates the water in my home radiators, the temperature is about 60c, would be a problem if i use Flex with fast connections to repair ?

[@clivesanderson]

do u have a video on pressure testing thanks

[@dalius98]

Hold up, so why should we avoid plastic piping for the return? Is this related to copper causing PPR degradation when in the same system (that's what I could find), or should we avoid recirculating in PPR even if the whole system is of the same material? (assuming because of faster degradation due to temperature, though most pipes are rated for 70C for 50years nowadays)

[@plumberparts]

Welllllll! It’s apparently because of hard water particles scoring the pipe over prolonged circulation. This is from the plastic pipe manufacturers (I spoke to Hep and Bute) and both said they won’t cover degradation failures on this type of system. 🤷‍♀️

[@Danish1der]

@@plumberparts Yes, it seems somewhat unclear what the exact reasons are. However, I found these 2 quotes on the Screwfix community forum from one of its member's who sounds as though he would have knowledge of the situation. 1)"I sit on the board of the BPF (British Plastic Federation) of which Polypipe are also members. I wouldn't like to comment on their product from 10 years ago, but the issue with their current product not being suitable for hot water return is due to the standard that they manufacture to changing to stop those products being used for a secondary return. That change was down to a failure of someone's product, made to that standard, some years ago that caused a huge incident, that then caused BS to withdraw the allowance of products manufactured to their standard to be used for secondary returns. The cause of that incident was eventually found to be installer related and not a product issue, but British Standards are still not happy to change back to allowing products manufactured to their standards to be used for secondary return hot water pipe work. In short, even if it were down to oxygen in the system, it would still affect metal systems much more than any plastic system. As I commented before, we have installed thousands of return systems in projects from single family homes, to hotels, 1,200 apartment multi residential developments, commercial and industrial. Our products are not only tested and approved for use on return systems in Europe, but also most developed countries around the world, including America. The issue is with the BS standard in the UK that the UK companies test their manufacturing, materials and designs to. I would be more than happy to present written confirmation to anyone that our products are suitable for those applications. Hope this helps." 2)"Dear group. Some systems are suitable for use within a recirculating system for both heating and domestic hot water, depending on the standards that the manufacturer uses for their product. Manufacturers products that use BS 7291 are unfortunately not currently permitted to be used for recirculating systems. However, Uponor manufacture their products to EN ISO 21003 for MLCP, and EN ISO 15875 for our PEX systems. These standards DO allow the system to be used for recirculating systems providing the system operates within the temperature classes as laid out in the relevant standard. Uponor can provide written specifications for these types of installations if required." If you wish to read the whole discussion, just search the Screwfix Forums for "Hot Water Recirculating Loop" I don't know if Plumbparts might have any further thoughts to add to this? Great video though, as I have been thinking about installing one of these systems and have been waiting for you to do a video on it. 👍

[@asif530]

Use of Mlcp or pex al pex wouldn't have the same issue as other plastic pipes

[@BendeVette]

@plumberparts As you already have shown and told us, the flow rate of this circulation circuit is very low and scoring the pipe over long times seems negligible compared to the high flow when lot's of water is needed (this is where scoring could occur, isn't it?).

[@plumberparts]

Ben de Vette yeah I think it’s over zealous regs on this one...

[@bmaher45]

Off topic is your hot water cylinder mains fed and if so. If you wanted to move gravity fed cylinder into attic what would I need to do and can't use mains fed water for cylinder as it isnt allowed in Ireland. Take it you need single pump for tank into cylinder in attic??

[@billsmith756]

I'm in europe and get steaming water out the tap within 3 or 4 seconds. It's a circulation system and heavily insulated pipes.

[@plumberparts]

Top man!

[@christm3]

What temperature should I be heating my hot water tank up to? My boiler is set to 62c currently.

[@richardowen2159]

Can you use this with a combi?

[@hakimvlogs6579]

Would the added cost be worth 17 seconds difference ?