How A Hidden Interaction Broke Magic: the Gathering

[@NNNNTTTT-q6c]

The flavor behind Cascade was that the spell was causing an uncontrollable chain reaction. At that point in the story, all the shards (different worlds) of Alara were colliding with each other and causing all kinds of chaos, so Cascade was a way to represent that.

[@distractionmakers]

That makes sense. We’re talking more about the ludo-story the mechanic tells outside of the context of the lore.

[@freddiesimmons1394]

​@@distractionmakersgoogle isnt helping with a definition of "ludo story". What is it?

[@HeavyMetalMouse]

@@distractionmakers In the case of that sort of 'story of the game we are currently playing', I have always felt that Cascade inherits the flavor of "wild magic" - You cast a spell, but it's also going to explode with some secondary effect that you don't have a lot of control over. In the context of a game where players are Greater Planeswalkers slinging spells and summoning monsters, a Cascade spell is one loaded with that extra bit of chaos to make 'something more' happen, or a summoned creature that inherently 'comes with' that sort of chaotic energy naturally.

[@ekolimitsLIVE]

Yikes. I don’t like when game designers lean into flavor first design. This is a terrible way to think about designing core mechanics. And keywords are as core as it gets in ways. Flavor should enhance the mechanics and game. Not direct it.

[@freddiesimmons1394]

@@ekolimitsLIVE i mean, a single keyword that shows up for a single set, which wasn't too hard to understand, for a product that updates 4 times a year, is not bad

[@dyne313]

The Storm Scale is now the Companion Scale.

[@distractionmakers]

So true haha

[@NZPIEFACE.]

The irony of cascade/discover is that while higher numbers allows for better spells to be cast for free, it also introduces a lot of variance into what can be cast, which unintuitively also makes lower values for cascade/discover extremely good as the targets can be found with higher consistency. I love how the mechanic is good at both low values and high values.

[@adamdouce353]

In Alara they printed a counterspell for Cascade. It was called Double Negative and countered two spells on the stack. So your opponent casts the cascade spell the free spell goes on the stack and you could counter both spells.

[@santiagocorbo4327]

Now that you mentioned Miracle it would be nice an episode about it. Really cool mechanic, at least on a feelings level.

[@chibiraptor]

13:50 The logic is that the suspend spells dont have a mana cost, so you cant cast them from your hand. Cascade lets you ignore the normal mana COST as long as you hit the right mana VALUE. Suspend isn't technically a necessary part of the interaction. So the connective tissue is that WotC uses the ruling that a card with no mana cost is considered to have a mana value of 0, which means they fit the rules of cascade. Tokens are also cards with no mana cost that are considered to have a mana value of zero. Flesh and Blood uses rules where, if a card doesnt have a cost, its just ineligible for effects that look for a certain cost, which is something WotC could do if they wanted.

[@seandun7083]

I think it's much to late to make cards with no mana cost have no mana value. There's plenty of cards that are designed around lands having a mv of 0. Also, small nitpick, tokens aren't cards.

[@VaguelyOf]

Exactly. It sounds like they imply in the video that the interaction has to do with it being the library while suspend cares about being in your hand, but the zone it's in isn't why Cascade can bypass the lack of mana cost. A card like Kari Zev's Expertise can cast a suspend card with no mana cost from your hand for the same reason Cascade can hit them from the library.

[@NateFinch]

They could still give the card a mana value of 0...... And just not let you cast it. Literally just can't be cast. And then suspend can have wording that lets you get around that. There's literally already a rule that says you can't cast spells without a mana cost. I don't know why wotc didn't just rule that it doesn't work. It's trivial.

[@seandun7083]

@@NateFinch because they don't really like to make functional errata when possible. The reminder text for Cascade is already pretty long as is. Besides, that decks have existed for ages and only recently have they gotten to be too strong. They can always adjust their power level with bans without having to errata a mechanic which just kills them outright.

[@NateFinch]

@@seandun7083 sure, I just think it was a dumb ruling from the outset. I do get that they didn't realize how powerful the interaction would be, though.

[@danielzamboni3630]

Just clearing a common misconception the storm scale refers to the likelyhood of a mechanic returning in standard, modern horizons or commander sets print storm everytime.

[@lancesmith8298]

Yeah, I was gonna say that Wizards prints a new piece of Storm once every two months, even if it’s dubious as a Spike. There is absolutely no way they’d print the 5 mana “give a spell Storm” any other way than directly to Legacy

[@WafflesOverPancakess]

Discover is a perfect example of how having restrictions on a mechanic provides design space. In a way, restrictions privide freedom to create. Keep up the good videos.

[@lancesmith8298]

Speaking of Cascade and un-costed spells, Urza’s Saga deliberately names the numbers 1 and 0 in the tutoring effect for exactly that reason, even though negative costed Magic cards do not exist. Technically, Lotus Bloom has no casting cost, so if it said “1 or less”, it would be able to tutor into play a Black Lotus, from your land base. By the laws of Magic the Gathering, nothing is a different integer than zero, despite also being less than 1. Or less than a half if we acknowledge Unglued for two seconds

[@Jawzah]

It's kind of dumb that nothing is less than 1 ... I mean those suspend spells are uncastable so they're not easier to cast than 1 ... So intuitively they're not less than one.. Also if it's not zero - you cannot spell blast them (as if that would matter) anyway.. Shouldn't it be "not more, not less, not equal"??? Or better yet - they should have perhaps made the suspend an alternative rather than only way to use such spells and avoided the whole issue of nothing costed spells. Of course then you might get to cast them cheap and get synergies with things that care about costs but that would hardly be broken.. Or they could have a nominal cost and "this spell cannot be cast"..

[@lancesmith8298]

@@Jawzah I think the least dumb way to handle it besides literally spelling out all two numbers that matter on the card (but probably scalable to other cards) is to change Cascade to “flip cards until you find a card with both a lower mana value and a mana cost”. Normal cards? Good. DFCs? Now working as intended. Weird split cards? Still might have a disproportionate mana value, but still workable. Lands? We already have a commander whose sole purpose is handling lands from Cascade.

[@TheMessinger47]

Urza’s saga actually looks at the mana cost, not mana value. It has to have a mana cost of {0} or {1}. You can’t find a Stonecoil Serpent this way

[@lancesmith8298]

@@TheMessinger47 Well, crap. I mean honestly X spells, mana value, and casting them for free was always deeply janky regardless and probably should be dummied out, but so much for my idea of making it make sense. So to recap one more time, mana value and mana cost, despite both being unchanging numbers on a card, also aren’t even associative. You have to consult the oracle (read: a judge) to know what rules apply to split cards and DFCs by keyworded mechanic. Speaking of which, the new Esper modified commander makes me real sad that Mutate both is not modifying (spelled out in the text) and not attaching (cannot find a ruling, but presumably an action that only applies to Equipment).

[@grantmurdock7385]

Hey, I love banding. Wish it were clearer, but it manipulates combat in such a rad way that has a great feeling of teamwork. Same reason why False Orders is never going to be reprinted; it's really hard to EXPLAIN.

[@PineappleMD]

They had to change up Split cards due to cascade, too! People were cascading into two parts of a split card or choosing the more expensive of double faced cards despite only cascading into the lesser-costed one. The mechanic makes sense, but it has been abused.

[@distractionmakers]

Good point!

[@seandun7083]

Pretty sure that was due to Brain in a Jar rather than Cascade, but it was a similar problem.

[@andrewamann2821]

The early interaction of split cards with Isochron Scepter was the other one, because it used the same trick.

[@Seergun]

​@seandun7083 and then they had to change the wording _again_ for flip/MDFC cards, thanks valki, god of lies, aka tibalt, cosmic impostor

[@seandun7083]

@@Seergun there they did change Cascade rather than mdfcs.

[@bigbone_99]

5:22 propsal to rename cascade to "keep rollin rollin rollin"

[@lancesmith8298]

If we ever get another Food-themed UB set, we absolutely need a Lembas-like Limp Biscuit that cascades. How? I dunno. Why? Because it’s there

[@EphemeralObsequious]

Looking forward to that suspend episode

[@nathaeladalyah9681]

The mana dork during Shards of Alara was Noble Heirarch

[@williamdrum9899]

0:00 ACKCHUALLY it was Alara Reborn

[@antarath517]

This is why I play Whirlwind Denial in some of my decks. Really versatile for simultaneous spells/triggers

[@Duskstone89]

The thing about Alara standard was that you had Lorwyn-Shadowmoor at the same time with not only the filter lands, but also Reflecting Pool which synergized well with the Vivid lands cycle, giving you an untapped source that tapped for any color of mana. Going through old forum posts from that time, you see people complaining about turn 4 Cryptic Command, turn 5 Baneslayer Angel, turn 6 Cloudthresher which is honestly crazy

[@distractionmakers]

Yeaaah that was a crazy format haha

[@Epok17]

This block was my introduction to Magic. It was equal parts crazy and fun lol.

[@ianblackmer7176]

The problem with suspend being a "on cast" trigger would be it's interaction with storm.

[@tommasopado2918]

Also you could stifle the ability, circumventing the mechanic completely

[@ekolimitsLIVE]

The problem with cascade is very low interactivity coupled with 2/3 advantage mechanics. Mtg is broken into 3 main advantage points. Draw, mana, and board advantage. Most cards fall into just 1 out of the 3. The busted cards fall into more. But making a game mechanic where it inherently always does two with very cumbersome interaction on the stack, you create a really unfun game state. Especially when they staple this onto a commander who you have access to all game. I’m puzzled by the introduction of discover. During their livestream they even said they fixed cascade. Like who thought that needed fixing. The randomness is the only factor that brought it down to a balanced mechanic and they took that out. It’s busted and I consider this trifecta when designing card games. Don’t do two of the advantages in one keyword.

[@distractionmakers]

Good insight. I think your evaluation of card advantage makes sense. It is effectively drawing a card and casting it for free giving you card and mana advantage. Theoretically, this is somewhat offset by the variance of not knowing what you’re going to get and it will cost less than the spell with cascade… but you’re still getting two spells for the price of one. When you couple it with cards that are supposed to cost time (suspend) and mana then you’ve got a really broken interaction. As for discover… I don’t really get it either haha.

[@ekolimitsLIVE]

@@distractionmakers interestingly, they changed discover to not work on cast. Now your card has to ETB. But they buffed it to allow you the flexibility to draw the card in case you “miss”. This fixed the problem of interaction on the stack because now a counterspell will stop you from discovering. The fact that cascade went on the stack immediately was super busted. But the ability to draw the card is huge. Now every discover card comes with its own replacement effect that you can build around. Come to think of it, I think I was a bit wrong before. Cascade and Discover actually do all 3 forms of advantage! Mana + Card + Board because in the end you add a creature to the board so you are going up on board state. It’s so busted! 🥲

[@distractionmakers]

I thought that was the case with discover as well, but then I found daring discovery - a sorcery with discover. It is part of the resolution of the spell though, not a cast trigger. But, this was what I meant when I said it’s a mechanic that doesn’t work the same every time. Not only does it reveal until a different mana value, it also happens based on different criteria. Sometimes an ETB, sometimes part of a spells resolution, sometimes on a death trigger. It’s more design space, but I think I would have kept it to ETB or dies. That would also differentiate it from cascade more.

[@alistairetheblu]

Interesting this didn't touch on the more recent "hidden interaction that broke the game", being how it worked with modal dual-faced cards, and how they had to change the rules around it after Valki.

[@bulkbogan6235]

Also how Discover is different from Cascade: with Cascade you either cast the spell or (say if you cascaded into a spell that has no legal targets) have to shuffle it with other exiled cards. So you can brick with cascade. Discover lets you put exiled card into your hand, either if it doesn't have legal targets or if you just want to. So in a way you can't really brick with discover.

[@LibertyMonk]

The difficulty behind Suspend vs Cascade is that they both exile the card, then cast it from exile.

[@jaceg810]

Can anybody explain why in modern horizons 3, there is nearly no "at the beginning of your upkeep" and many cards say "at the beginning of your precombat main phase". Why do it at the start of a main phase, if there is a specific phase for start of turn effects?

[@distractionmakers]

Certain effects make more sense at your precombat main phase. Mostly effects that add mana to your mana pool, like black market connections. This way you can utilize the ability alongside being able to cast spells other than instants. I also think this is unintuitive and perhaps mana emptying from your mana pool should happen at the end of your turn to keep these effects to the upkeep step.

[@jaceg810]

@@distractionmakers I would agree with you if it made mana, however black market connections makes a treasure, and thus can be kept though the draw step, and have the treasure make mana during your main phase. Similarly, Ripples of Undeath (a card comparable to sylvan library, which triggers before you draw) has no reason to be precombat main phase. The only one with a reason on second glance is Party Trasher, which asks you to discard a card, which you will be able to do more easily after drawing, so that one is fair game.

[@distractionmakers]

@@jaceg810 Oh right, the other reason is so you've drawn your card for the turn and can make a decision with all available information.

[@MichaelPesta]

I absolutely love suspend and I don't even Cascade into it it's just a fun additional thing to throw people off

[@Level_1_Frog]

Would be very cool to hear your guys' thoughts on Miracle in more detail, because is it a super powerful mechanic? Not really. Its unreliable, it only triggers (at maximum) once each turn, and its actively pretty bad early on in the game. But is it a GOOD mechanic? It absolutely can be- the feeling of topdecking a sweeper at a key moment or a game ending Bonfire feels truly magical, like a higher power gave you a helping hand in your time of need. But, if you're greedy and jam too many miracles in your deck, it will suck. I think its very cool mechanic anyway.

[@seandun7083]

It was pretty to tier in legacy for a long time with effects like Brainstorm, Sensei's Divining Top and Counterbalance, but there is also the annoying logistical thing of needing to read each card you draw before putting it with the rest of your hand so that if it was a miracle, your opponent could be sure you weren't cheating.

[@Level_1_Frog]

@@seandun7083 ah yeah I know about miracles, but aside from that single deck in that format does it see any widespread play? I genuinely don't know so if you can tell me I'd appreciate it. I understand that the mechanic suffers from, well, lack of cards, and I know it was a big thing in standard at the time. I just find myself wondering why they don't print more cards with the mechanic in supplemental sets, unless I just didn't notice (which is very possible, there's a lot of sets these days lol)

[@seandun7083]

@@Level_1_Frog I think Terminus still sees play in control decks (it's still a 1 mana boardwipe that ignores protection and death triggers when you set it up with Brainstorm), but losing SDT mostly killed the archetype. I'm not aware of many of the others seeing much play. They did print Entreat the Dead in the Aminatou precon, but I think that's all for extra ones.

[@Level_1_Frog]

@@seandun7083 I do love Terminus, such a blowout in commander cuz you only spent one mana so you basically have the rest of that turn to setup and recover. Love it. Shocked that there was only one extra one since AVR, there's a lot of design space there to play with.

[@seandun7083]

@@Level_1_Frog actually just remembered they printed Zephyrim, Sister Repentia and Triumph of Saint Katherine in the 40k imperium precon (which fits pretty well flavorfully). Triumph has also seen legacy play.

[@pbailed8007]

My favorite standard deck of all time was my cascade land destruction deck,so fun for me not them, lol!

[@Flum666]

some kinda mana-dork, how about the 1 mana planeswalker

[@distractionmakers]

Haha forgot deathrite shaman was in this meta.

[@freddiesimmons1394]

"It's very crunchy..." ? What is this? I like these videos but a lot of this stuff is esoteric

[@distractionmakers]

Oh sorry. Sometimes we move into design terminology without explaining. Crunchy means mechanics focused without intuitive flavor or focused solely on the math side of game design.

[@freddiesimmons1394]

@@distractionmakers thanks. And I've seen like 20 other videos too. Crunchy is a funny word for it as it itself seem almost crunchy in this sense.

[@waltercardcollector]

@@freddiesimmons1394 I agree. I guess the idea is that you are "crunching" all the math in your mind lol.

[@freddiesimmons1394]

@@waltercardcollector is that what math feels like? O.r is it "number crunching"?

[@waltercardcollector]

@@freddiesimmons1394 Right I think it does come from the phrase "number cruncher" which means a person whose job involves dealing with large amounts of numerical data.

[@KrazyKittyKatKatcher]

I feel clickbaited... And it's not a good feeling. You didn't really explain how it "broke" magic...

[@distractionmakers]

Oh sorry. I thought we were clear about the interaction between cascade and suspend cards as being broken.

[@colbyhoman7602]

I like you guys, but sadly i find myself a little disappointed in the depth of some of these. Like, you talk about the interaction of cascade and certain suspend cards, but you barely analyze the game further than explaining the interaction. For example, there's a lot of rich space for deck building when considering cascade. There's also a lot to be said about how control type gameplay is both disadvantaged by opponents using cascade, while not being able to effectively utilize it themselves. I'd also like to hear about how cascade actually plays in different formats and what the implicit design of cascade cards say about the designers expectations and assumptions of the mechanic. In addition, the interaction between the uncastable suspend cards and cascade is I think a clear example of a design mistake, and you both fail to analyze the interaction of those design elements past explaining the interaction. It could have been a great teaching moment but the opportunity was completely missed.

[@distractionmakers]

I hear ya. Some episodes aren’t going to be as deep as others, but I think we will add a little more structure to the mechanics videos to make sure we have a section that is 100% design focused.

[@Hakaze]

The fact that what you cascade into is so random and unrestricted, makes me find in very bland and boring. If "goodstuff piles" were a mechanism, they'd all be cascade

[@seandun7083]

I mean, Cascade decks in modern are built specifically so that you always hit the same card.

[@Hakaze]

@@seandun7083 But that is out of deck building, not out of the machanism, therby not changeing the feel of the machanism itself.

[@bradcallahan3546]

“Broke” 🙄 so tired of this word being overused by bad players

[@clashcitycretin10]

Wtf are you talking about. Cascade + valki was so powerful that they literally had to change the rules in order to nerf it. The dumbest people always have the strongest opinions on things

[@SkervyBoi]

@@clashcitycretin10I think the irony of your statement eludes you…

[@tldreview]

Yes that's very cool and all but is it kicker or is it horsemanship?

[@kekker_]

Kicker (0) When you cast this spell, exile cards from the top of your library until you exile a nonland card that costs less. If [this spell] was kicked, you may cast that exiled spell without paying its mana cost. Put the exiled cards on the bottom of your library in a random order.

[@stackingdamage7340]

The best part about cascade, and the reason for its name, is that one cascade spell can cascade into another cascade spell. Filling your deck with multiple cascade cards means you might cast your 6-drop cascade spell, cascade into your 4-drop cascade, then into a 3, then into another spell. Cascade first appeared in Alara Reborn a 100% multicolored set. Every cascade card was multicolored, making it a powerful reason to go all-in on 5 color in limited (and also subtly mana fixing by letting you cast from the library without the proper colors of mana)

[@Skylos]

10:25 I've never actually viewed banding in a way where it functions differently depending on if you attack or block. At its core, whether you are attacking or blocking, all that banding does is that you choose how damage is distributed to the creatures in your band.

[@seandun7083]

Your don't declare bands while blocking meaning you don't need to abide by the "any number with banding and up to one without rule" when double blocking.

[@mooredaxon]

Another benefit of Discover over cascade is that discovery can trigger off of anything. It's not an on-cast thing like Cascade. This makes it weaker in that you can counter a card that discovers on ETB or resolution, but makes it stronger in that a permanent can repeatedly discover.

[@distractionmakers]

Great point

[@blackmist33]

Cascade or the ability so good that it changed the ways MDFCs functioned. Discover, because occasionally hitting duds while cascading needed to be "fixed". They are fun abilities but so degenerate when actually built around. They seem to design these mechanics around the value random cascade but the fact that Geological Appraiser is banned in pioneer makes it feel like they didn't quite understand that players want the consistent degenerate cascade.

[@seandun7083]

More that Valki//Tibalt was so good that it changed the way Cascade functioned.

[@jmanwild87]

i'm sure someone has already said this and idk if your explanation of why cascade works with the suspend cards is correct and weird or just wrong but a much simpler explanation is that permanents with no mana cost are considered to have cmc 0 this includes tokens that aren't copies of something with a mana cost lands and suspend only spell. so you can bypass the suspend because 0 < any other cmc this is why urza's saga specifically says it looks for cards with mana cost 0 or 1. As that looks at the cost printed on the card meaning you can't grab lotus bloom with it as while lotus bloom has cmc 0 the printed mana cost is N/A Cascade specifically says cmc less than itself so it can just find and cast these absurdly powerful suspend cards

[@Soumein]

Makes you wonder why they didn't just make suspend the normal cost, and add a kicker that disables the suspend effect.

[@Caliban_80]

"Without paying its mana cost" should not be printed on anything.

[@megapussi]

idk if theres any discover x cards yet but that would b sick

[@Thalarion]

10:30 lmao @ the banding deck im building

[@warpsterdash5420]

To me taking the resource aspect of magic that is a very critical aspect of it, and then giving any leeway to cheat is just... never gonna work. I've wondered how magic plays with no cheating aspects, so no discount spells, no rituals, no nada and see how it plays, the obvious exception being green search spells for basics and that eliminates a lot of modern stuff that would include delve and such and its kinda crazy how little times you are actually paying the 'balanced' number at the top right of the card corner.

[@simplegarak]

Do a video on banding, you cowards! 😅 I have joked in the past that banding is a great example for game designers of how a "simple" and "easy" concept in a game can spiral out of control.

[@bertyamgeebler1865]

Wait but that’s not why violent outburst was banned unless I’m misunderstanding

[@bertyamgeebler1865]

It was banned because it specifically enabled living end and crashing footfalls to be cascaded at instant speed - fon was in those decks but it wasn’t the key to that banned afaik

[@seandun7083]

I mean, being able to do it at instant speed had the extra effect of letting you protect it with FoN (since you can only free cast it on someone else's turn) so that was part of it, but yeah being able to do it at instant speed was also just very good on it's own.

[@bertyamgeebler1865]

@@seandun7083 yeah i think thats why violent outburst alone was ban worthy in modern - regardless of the support being able to cheat power on demand was always going to cause issues, probably one of the better bans in recent memory seeing as both the major cascade decks are still strong

[@TheVeriOra]

First. Great vids.

[@Big_Dai]

Suspend is Plot with extra steps.. and a lot more baggage on it.

[@GerBessa]

But cool design space like Greater Gargadon and Aeon Chronicler, and counter interaction.

[@megapussi]

worth mentioning that a 7 on the storm scale is "not likely to return, but possible if the right environment comes along." in this context id say a set where the theme of discovery combined with an improved design for the mechanic fit the spirit of being "the right environment." anything 5 or less is basically a "yes id like this to come back" so 7 rlly isnt that bad.

[@distractionmakers]

Right. At various times cascade has been anywhere between a 7-9.

[@megapussi]

ah I didnt know it used to be all the way at 9. I guess they eventually agreed that thats a bit harsh lol

[@kekker_]

Suspend feels like two mechanics. One where a card has a delayed cast, and one where it's cast cheaper later. A keyword ability having 2 costs is sort of strange in Magic (I think the only other keywords with that are Awaken and Reinforce?) and it makes it harder to read. Delayed cast: Suspend X _(Rather than cast this card from your hand, exile it with X time counters on it. At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a time counter. When the last is removed, you may cast it.)_ Cheaper later: Suspend [cost] _(Rather than cast this card from your hand, exile it. Cast it on a later turn for its suspend cost.)_ ...which is basically Plot, but you pay the cost later instead of up front. Cards with either of those mechanics would have to have a normal mana cost, which would make Cascade function perfectly fine.

[@lancesmith8298]

Truly the weirdest part of suspend is probably the coolest part of its design space, which was cards with suspend that still care about the time counters while suspended (and the pseudo-cycle of cards that endlessly loop themselves every three turns). Suspend cards that want sacrifices to be played faster. Suspend cards that give you the payoff if only you dump enough mana into them from the outset. Suspend cards that give small incremental advantage while suspended.

[@seandun7083]

There's only one kind of suspend. Suspend X - . I think you are thinking of foretell. Awaken and reinforce also only have the once version... Unless you meant that it has both a value and a cost? I guess.

[@kekker_]

@@seandun7083 Yes, I should have said two values I guess, not two costs. It is one of the only mechanics in the game with both a numerical value and a cost.

[@OrdemDoGraveto]

Cascade does not apease my inner Vorthos. Its flavorless.

[@Rannulfus]

It's flavor is "general good stuff". It mostly appeals to people who like high power or competitive magic. The only people at my LGS that I see running it at all in any game-plan relevant are the high power enjoyers.

[@GerBessa]

The flavor is "crazy shit happens because of the Maelstrom at the conflux of the shards". Later product almost always refer back to it, like the Ydris commander.

[@OrdemDoGraveto]

@@GerBessa i know its related to the Maelstrom. But still. If you use a cascade card anywhere outside of a Alara block deck, its flavor is lost.