How a Victorian tower block brought trams back to London

A long chain of cause and effect.
Ko-Fi: ko-fi.com/jago...
Patreon: / jagohazzard
Just Watching Trains (2nd channel): / @justwatchingtrains-ji4ps
Threads: www.threads.ne...
Instagram: ...

[@captainjoshuagleiberman2778]

Believe it or not, you are a historian. In some ways better than a lot of the self-proclaimed historians on KZbin. You research the history of your subjects very well. You are not a broad historian like Atun Shei., but that's okay. I love the focus of your videos, so wear the badge of historian with pride.

[@tadcastertory1087]

Definitely. A very skilled historian.

[@Julius_Hardware]

Amen

[@sonwig5186]

I think he needs to cite his sources if he wants to be a historian. Not disparaging his videos but its something you need to do even as an amateur historian.

[@trilingualfudge7307]

Thats fair. Probably more of a compliment than a well-backed comment or critique but yea

[@Rustinho]

@@sonwig5186 - I think people generally would be well advised to cite sources in day to day life more often. Far too much disinformation out there to sift through.

[@ianpatterson6552]

Jago is far too modest about his achievement here on YT. Turning a deeply nerdy, niche subject of rail history into a popular channel with 205k subscibers. Well done him.

[@francisbtube]

With 2k growth in just a month.

[@Calum_S]

Queen Anne's Mansions was the nickname given to a particular style of superstructure of Royal Navy ships in the 20s & 30s.

[@roberthodges3141]

Who else remembers the original Croydon trams? The driver stood on an open platform and controlled the speed via big brass lever . There’s was lever at each end of the tram and the one not in use was secured by a leather strap. I remember trolley buses too ( my uncle Fred drove one. Great video

[@NetworkYellow516]

Nice.

[@trevordance5181]

I just about remember the trolley buses in Croydon too. As a young boy with my mum we'd regularly take the 630 from West Croydon Bus Station to the Leather Bottle stop in Earlsfield to visit an aunt and then do the journey in reverse on the way home. I have vivid memories of speeding across Mitcham Common on a 630 when Mitcham fair was on and pleading with my mum to get off so we could visit it. We never did! Years later I used to work with a bloke that once was a London Transport Trolleybus driver.

[@brianfretwell3886]

And the new trams in Croydon were numbered carrying on from the last original tram number!!

[@TellyMan200]

remember that and the old red white livery.

[@baggypipestv]

I remember them and I’m only 45. Work that one out… I visited Hong Kong back in 1999 and they were using our old trams!

[@fredquimby5409]

I worked on the 13th floor of the the NLA Tower back in the 80's. My abiding memory is of the fire drills. After trudging down 13 flights of stairs there was a slight change of stair height at the bottom which even at the leisurely unpanicked pace of a drill made you stumble slightly. I always thought that in the event of an actual fire there would be a huge pile of bodies as everyone tripped on those last few steps.

[@andya696]

"...and throw up they did!" 😂

[@michaeldavis2039]

Wow!!! Born and raised in London and spent my boyhood living in South Croydon until I immgrated with my family to the States in 1995! In 2009, we did a 4 day visit back to the UK for my late aunt's 70th birthday in the Midlands and spent our last night in Central London, but it wasn't until 2019 that I actually took a real trip back home and visited my old boyhood town of Croydon....and WOW!!!.... did things change!! They even took down the old pedestrian bridge over the Gravel Hill dual carriageway to make room for the Tramlink stop there!! Rode the Tramlink for the very first time from Gravel Hill into Central Croydon!! The old CLA Tower and East Croydon Train Station were the only buildings I recognized back from my boyhood!! Never knew this history!! Thanks so much!!!

[@joeds3775]

As a kid i was about 6 fot away from the landing point of a gent who jumped off the 50p building. One of my lasting memorys of croydon.

[@cpknight]

You’re on to something here - I really like this “James Burke” format!

[@williambecwar7939]

Great work! Puts me in mind of James Burke's "Connections."

[@jimjolly4560]

That's what I came to the comments to say! High praise indeed!

[@MrZ303]

I always find it incredible how you manage to come up with a new "you are the X to my Y" every video

[@jimmyviaductophilelawley5587]

This is great work Jago! If you've never seen James Burke's Connections I'll be surprised. It's like an episode of that.

[@TheFrogfather1]

Fun fact - that hexagon building (Croydon One) was not only used as the headquarters of the game development company in the Black Mirror Bandersnatch episode but it's also the view from the Croydon Easy Hotel where Frog and I have stayed on several occasions.

[@IanFarquharson2]

Croydon was always odd, I grew up in Biggin Hill in the 70s and you had to cross the Addington wastelands to get there. No public transport. Easier to get the bus to Bromley. Same sort of distance but easier. Once I could drive, Croydon was on the cards, and parking on the outskirts near the thruppeny-bit tower and walking in for shopping was o.k. Shame Allders closed, and the whitgift centre fell once it got ‘modernised’. Still occasionally drive thru rather than use the m25, but it’s a shadow of how it used to be. The home office and DOE building Lunar House was one of the early tallest buildings, I can vaguely remember being in it as my old man’s office was in it, probably 74-75 of so. Went on to work on the new courthouse, which is fairly brutal too, even though it was brick instead of concrete.

[@bob_the_bomb4508]

I used to live in New Addington. ‘Wastelands’ is a compliment…

[@ktipuss]

And its proximity to Biggin Hill and Croydon airport is why the town centre copped so many bombs from the Luftwaffe in 1940-41, not surprising given that air navigation was still quite primitive then. So much so that one Focke Wulf actually landed on an RAF airfield and the pilot said to the ground crew: "Benzine bitte, snell!!". Ground crew: "You're not going anywhere, mate!".

[@renegadechic]

Biggin Hill always felt like a mystery to me. I worked for about 10 years on and off in and around Croydon and because I don't drive, anywhere not on a railway was a bit of a mystery. Colleagues would be from there but frankly, even now I'd need to pull out a map to know where it is. The office culture might not be what it was in it's heyday but the way property prices seem to have gone there you wouldn't think it was doing too poorly!

[@lohphat]

I visit the White Bear whenever I'm in EC (Shirley actually). I worked for a guy who flew his Gulfstream in and out of BH to California.

[@jackmartinleith]

@@renegadechic Jago is planning a video on the proposed but never built Southern Heights Light Railway, which would have gone from Orpington to Sanderstead with stations at Green Street Green, Downe and Keston, Cudham and Biggin Hill, Westerham Hill, Tatsfield, Chelsham for Warlingham. Hamsey Green, and Mitchley Wood.

[@Orion40000]

The narration, the dry humour, the interesting (to me at least) topics... Just perfect. Maybe - as you insist - you're not a historian in the traditional sense. But I wish I'd had history teachers that were half as entertaining and *clearly interested in their subject* as you are. Instead I had to wait until my late 30s before I started looking around and asking, "Who can teach me about this thing without inducing narcolepsy?" Excellent work, Jago. Really appreciated.

[@SamLowryDZ-015]

Although you mentioned 'throwing up' buildings, you missed an open goal that the trams provided a 'Croydon facelift'

[@Wasserfeld.]

You are an historian! Learn more about the history of London from you than anyone else! And linking all that together is a great little history lesson! I worked in Croydon for a few years until the pandemic. Got a soft spot for it, but the state of North End is shocking atm. Hopefully, if the [scaled down] rebuild of the Whitgift happens, it'll bring a new lease of life back into it. The new tall buildings around do show there's absolutly demand for residential in Croydon and of course, more people mean more retail/lesuire footfall - also it's transport links are pretty damn good. Thameslink, Southern, buses and the trams make East Croydon especially, a great transport hub. As for the trams, the proposed extension to Sutton needs doing, as does evenutally to Bromley and Biggin Hill. Paris sees the merit of outer suburban orbital trams and Superloop should be a stopgap at most.

[@MrSloika]

The father or brutalist architecture was Ernő Goldfinger. Born in the Austro-Hungarian Empire he married an English heiress and moved to the UK. Goldfinger was a polarizing figure engendering hatred from some and admiration from others. One of the people who was not a fan of Ernő Goldfinger was Ian Fleming. Fleming's Bond villain Auric Goldfinger was inspired by Ernő. Interestingly. while brutalist architecture originated in the reactionary West, it was enthusiastically embraced by the revolutionary East. When people think of brutalism today they imagine drab Stalin era apartment blocks and Stasi headquarters in East Berlin.

[@tankmicr00man]

I remember when the RAC building went up, looming over my grandmother's house in Lansdowne Road .I used to use East Croydon station which had its own goods yard.

[@andrewdolinskiatcarpathian]

Fascinating that people were encouraged to “throw up” in Croydon 🥴 Thank you for yet another scholarly episode. 👏👏👍😀

[@DukeofEarl1961]

Anyone old enough to remember James Burke's Connections series? Jago gives a modern rework...

[@RogersRamblings]

The said Connections videos are on KZbin.

[@nicksmith4507]

Just what I was thinking

[@IlfordRetro]

What a great summary of tall building matters. Easy to digest and easy on the ear, thank you.

[@mdhazeldine]

So, the building in the thumbnail (No.1 Croydon, a.k.a "the 50p building") used to be my office! I worked on the 16th floor about about 6 months back in 2009. I used to get the tram most days from Wimbledon to East Croydon and sometimes take it to the east on my lunch break. Many people hate Croydon but I thought it had nice parts, especially to the east and south. You say it wasn't well connected before the tram, and while you might be right in the east-west direction, don't overlook the fact that it's on the Brighton Main Line and has fast and frequent access to Victoria, Clapham Junction and London Bridge. It also now has the London Overground. So it wasn't that bad before, but it's definitely better now.

[@Macilmoyle]

You're showing your (lack of) age there. 😀 I always knew it as the thrupenny bit building. I worked in there as well for a few years when the company I worked for rented floors out as overflow space while they refurbished their offices.

[@garryyoung8945]

We used to call it the thruppenny bit building when it was first built, we used to walk past it when we got off the bus to go and see my Nan who lived in Fairfield road at the time. There was a small house right in front of it for many years that used to be a solicitors office, the business had long since closed down but the lady that lived there refused to move so they almost literally built it in her back garden, when she died they knocked the house down and redeveloped the site.

[@mdhazeldine]

@@Macilmoyle Haha. At 41, I'm happy to be showing my lack of age. :D

[@MaliciousDiscontent]

I work in the 50p building right now! I’ve never actually been to the top floor, might have to do it one day 😅

[@stephengallagher8002]

50p. Showing your age. 'ti's the threepeny bit building. Apologies, already done. 😊

[@nutsnproud6932]

Jago I lived in New Addington and there were notions of trams getting there in the 1970s. We all got a newsletter to get opinion on where the trams should go. In the end they cheapened out and went direct up Lodge Lane cycle path via Parkway to Central Parade.

[@Zeppflyer]

I was very confused for a second as I mostly follow naval history. There, Queen Anne's Mansion lent its name to the large, angular superstructure retrofitted to older British battleships and built onto new one in the interwar years. These large, more lightly-armored structures dispensed with the heavy command citadels which were cramped, hard to see from, and probably wouldn't have survived direct hits anyways. When it was found that British commanders were just standing outside anyways during battle, they decided to roll with it.

[@thomaszinser8714]

Well, the irony there is that the naval Queen Anne's Mansion is named after the building, which was also very large and angular.

[@JagoHazzard]

Those structures are named after the block of flats, interestingly.

[@Zeppflyer]

Indeed! I'd meant to say that, so I edited my comment to make that clearer. @@JagoHazzard

[@chrisfox6445]

Probably the best examples of those battleships were HMS Nelson and HMS Rodney. Described as ugly by more than a few, I thought they were rather handsome looking ships.

[@Sol_Calibre]

Jago, i don't know if this means anything but you are definitely too modest; you're definitely a historian. I'm a 33 year old man who's primary interest is gaming and lives in Croydon and yet you are teaching me so much more about rhe network i use and the history surrounding it all, which i don't even think about. And i love the dry humour. To me, you're like the David Attenborough of transport. I appreciate your videos!

[@CJonestheSteam72]

Nice work, trams aren't mentioned nearly enough and would have improved traffic in London if they had been kept, now mostly heavy rail and buses apart from the DLR and Croydon

[@RMProjects785]

We need more trams. I think some Superloop routes should eventually be upgraded to light rail.

[@oskarz]

@@RMProjects785 absolutely. in fact, in 2006 one of the (now) superloop routes was proposed to be a tram line

[@RMProjects785]

@@oskarz Also a tramlink on the Uxbridge Road in West London would be amazing.

[@christopherandrews9294]

Having lived in Croydon for thirty years, I remember the hassle of all the roads being dug up to move the utilities for the new tram tracks. Now nearly last 20 years living in Soviet Melbourne I can tell you trams are very slow way of getting around slower than the 119b bus and are only in place where no one can afford to live.

[@LeafHuntress]

@@christopherandrews9294 Both of those aren't reasons, they're personal dislikes. I'm not familiar with the Oz way of doing things, but i imagine they're the same illogical ways as in the rest of the anglosphere. The comment above you praised the Dutch trams. 1. Look up Dutch roadworks, you can find sped up footage on utube of cameras on building sites, they regularly have only 72 hours to install something. That it took that long in London is on the English, not on the building of a tram network. 2. Dutch trams have right of way most of the times. It's amazing how fast trams can be when they aren't stuck in traffic or have to wait needlessly for red lights. So that's a black mark against Melbourne, not against trams. Trams are great, especially when they ride on green trails. TRAMS ON GRASS!

[@andrewweitzman4006]

"Occasionally mistaken for a historian" sounds very much like Sir Terry Pratchett's line about him "occasionally being accused of literature." And that last bit reminds of that classic series "Connections".

[@LeoStarrenburg]

Gooch Ware "G" Travelstead, quite amazing I never heard of this man before, but thanks to Jago Hazard I now have ! Seems to me that whenever transport in London needs a little nudge in a new and hopefully right direction an American pops up. Did anyone say Charles Yerkes ?

[@andrewhotston983]

Crazy names, crazy guys!

[@dpsdps01]

Pity that the tram idea is not extended all over the city. Could empty a lot of streets from traffic, help ease congestion on the Underground and provide a good alternative to overcrowded bus lines. They'd need need to develop double-decker trams in red, though.

[@RogersRamblings]

There was a suggestion to reinstate the No7 tram along the Uxbridge Road from Shepherd's Bush to Uxbridge. Car drivers squealed and cried so a much needed improvement to public transport through multiple shopping centres was abandoned.

[@RendererEP]

In outer east london they've been talking about trams for years as north-south connections are difficult without a car between places that are historically and culturally linked together. And potentially crossing into essex, kent and south east london. I think London's suburbs could really be helped with trams instead of the superloop (which doesn't go that far east anyway)

[@wclifton968gameplaystutorials]

The original plan for the "East London Transit" branded bus services in Barking were originally meant to be Trams, then it was scaled back to Trolleybuses before being scaled back further to just using specially branded diesel-hybrid buses first with a fleet of Wright Gemni II buses and then a fleet of Wright New Bus For London's (NBFLs aka New Routemaster). London should get more tramways but this nation is financially bankrupt so that will probably never happen in the coming years.

[@crhct]

agreed, there are many parts of london you can only travel between by going into central and then back out, circumferential tram or even DLR-style systems would link them up

[@cooperised]

​@@RogersRamblingsCar drivers squealing and crying about public transport projects is so common and yet completely illogical. I cycled home yesterday (not in London) past a stationary two-lane queue of cars ¾ of a mile long. The vast majority of the cars had only one occupant, and I estimated that there were fewer than 500 people in the queue. If just half of those could have completed their journeys by public transport, the remaining motorists would have benefitted enormously.

[@roberthuron9160]

10:32 To Jago,there was an advertisement put out by the Baltimore Transit Company in 1926,describing the fact that the streetcars,were to high rise buildings,were horizontal elevavators! If Croydon,and London in general hadn't abandoned the trams,the tall buildings would have been handled quite handily! Politicians and bankers are,in general,really short sighted,as they want instantaneous wealth,and long term income,isn't on their radar! Thanks for another side excursion into London history! Thank you 😇 😊!

[@ZachRBLX42]

U are a historian! Not mistaken to be one u have amazing videos about transport and more!

[@darmtb]

Thanks for a great story and now I finally seen a picture of the Queen Anne’s mansion’s that Drachinifel mentions from time to time 😉

[@dl4608]

Nothing mistaken about it! Your research is thorough, your narratives are entertaining and informative, and your work helps ensure this information is both shared and preserved. You (maybe?) might not have formal academic qualifications, but speaking as someone you does, you absolutely tick every box that actually matters for thoroughly deserving the title. I appreciate and enjoy your efforts, and wish for more historians just like you.

[@Whiskey2shots]

You absolutely are a historian and a very good one at that!

[@buzzukfiftythree]

It’s a great shame that London didn’t retain and expand its tram network in the central area. It must be one of the few European capitals to have no trams in the city centre.

[@PhillipBicknell]

Canary Wharf wasn't built to modern enough standards - it was built on the cheap. I worked on the Halon systems for the computer rooms for 1 Cabot Sq - they had very little room for all the cabling required, plus were having to plate the beams to reinforce for floor loadings. The small slab-to-slab height and minimal structure definitely created headaches for all concerned. We lost count of the number of fire alarm activations caused by the plate welding - my office was on the 10th floor - long walk down the stairs every time. Of course now, 30 years later, Halon is long gone and computers are way more powerful yet much smaller. So maybe the development has a few more years in it yet.

[@RogersRamblings]

All tall buildings can trace their origins to Ditherington Flax Mill in Shrewsbury. It was the first iron framed building. A subject worthy of closer examination I suggest.

[@Quasihamster]

But then, all iron framed buildings can trace their origins to wood framed buildings.

[@paullestrange]

Might be worth looking at Adelaide house on King William street: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelaide_House

[@simonh6371]

I'm a Shropshire lad and didn't know that. So the first iron framed building, as well as the first iron bridge. However it's not going to make it onto this Londoncentric channel I fear.

[@simonh6371]

@@paullestrange King William Street in Shrewsbury or Ironbridge? Oh it's in London so no need to mention the city because everyone on the planet knows the streets of London, because it's the best place in the world.

[@RogersRamblings]

@@simonh6371 Are you aware that the industrial revolution started in Coalbrookdale in 1709?

[@AFCManUk]

I remember as a kid, being really interested in watching the development of the Docklands. For me, it all seemed to start with that famous Jean Michel Jarré 'Destination Docklands' concert. After that, new office blocks, houses and railways seemed to just grow exponentially within the area. In my early days of exploring London, I also remember back then, being gutted after going to Bank one Saturday, only to find that the DLR didn't run on weekends.

[@lucaorangedragon9492]

Must have been quite interesting seeing the area grow, when I was born it was already a comercial hub

[@AtheistOrphan]

I (along with many others) was at that concert, 35 years ago! (I still have the souvenir programme).

[@jamesaitken5653]

I thought you were going to mention the other connection to the Docklands that drove the need for Tramlink: New Addington, the new town built on the outskirts of Croydon borough, built to house those displaced from the docklands in the Blitz. But nowhere near a train line. I grew up near there, my dad had to get a bus to East Croydon every day, but they were subject to ever worsening traffic. The trams finally gave New Addington a reliable fast link to East Croydon

[@kaitlyn__L]

At least they said “let’s build a tram” instead of “let’s build 3 more lanes”!

[@kgbgb3663]

"This is the only footage I have of an old computer." [Picture of Babbage's analytical engine.] That's the most historian-like thing to do that I can imagine.

[@richardmorrissey4289]

I'm probably not the first to ask this, but how many people pause the video near the end and try to guess what the patreon subscribers are going to be called? I've got one so far, "You are the transformer to my voltage drop". This one, I went for "You are the public transport investment to my poorly planned urban centre". Miles away... I enjoy the videos, thanks for your efforts.

[@flobbertop4278]

Worked and lived in Croydon late 80s for 20 years, I actually thought train service into London was pretty good. Loved the trams too. I’ve heard it called the wedding cake building.

[@SynchroScore]

Since a number of people are mentioning James Burke in the comments, I thought I'd leave a nice chain of Connections here, also. The term "Queen Anne's Mansions" can be found in an area of study quite far from urban planning and architecture: Naval history. Starting with the construction of the _Nelson_ class battleships and continuing with the reconstruction of the _Queen Elizabeth_ class and others, a number of British warships were distinguished by their big blocky superstructures, which quickly gained the name "Queen Anne's Mansions", I suppose for their resemblance to the tower block. I learned about this from another chap who, like you, resides in London and makes videos full of delightful nerdery, narrated with properly dry British humor. He goes by Drachinifel, if you want to look him up. And what was his day job, before he took up producing videos full time? He was a civil engineer...for Croydon Council.

[@isashax]

Another fab video! I haven't used those trams, but they look like a great choice of transport for that area.

[@frglee]

Something had to be done with the Wimbledon-West Croydon line, I suppose. Passenger numbers haemorrhaged after the 60s and the railways must have been wondering for a while how they could close it, as it had been pared to the bone to reflect lack of use. Amazing to think with the crowds using it as the Tramlink these days, that even an hourly service out of the rush hours only ever had a few passengers - I have memories of being quite alone in the elderly two-carriage EMUs that took me down on a regular trip down to the dismal and dreary industrial wasteland that was Waddon Marsh in the 1970s. I also remember walking to my student digs from Wimbledon station to Merton Park as it was often quicker than waiting for the infrequent connecting train service.

[@highpath4776]

Wimbledon West Croydon was really built for frieght and just managed to miss useful places, like Mitcham or Morden town centre. IF it had been run with at least 20min frequency and a couple of extra halts it could have been more useful

[@iankemp1131]

Even now I don't get the impression that it is really heavily used because it misses the main areas of population. Which begs an interesting question on what would happen on the lines out the Carshalton and Sutton etc if they had a tram-frequency service (which would need trams or tram-priced trains; could the Sheffield tram-train idea work?)

[@frglee]

@@iankemp1131 An alternative idea might be an extension of the Northern Line from Morden to Sutton (the Wimbledon-Sutton track being just beyond the Northern Line Morden depot just west of the tube station). This might have been the intention for the deep level second so-called 'Northern Line Express' tunnels partially constructed during WW2 under Clapham South, Clapham Common, Clapham North and Stockwell used as bomb shelters and later as temporary accomodation. Or it might not. No-one seems sure. Another cunning plan for the Sutton Line had been an extension of the District Line south of Wimbledon, presumably involving hideously expensive tunnelling under Wimbledon station.

[@iankemp1131]

@@frglee Yes, the Northern Line extension would have made a lot of sense and be reasonably easy and cheap to achieve using existing tracks (platform height differences would have been a drawback). It's a pity that it was blocked initially by the Southern Railway and that the will was never there afterwards to bring it through.

[@vespelian]

Jago Hazzard is truly a marvel. Not only a historian but manages to solves a mystery of naval history without even realising it.

[@afaulconbridge]

Loved the "throw up they did" line. It reminded me of being drunk. What's so bad about being drunk? Ask a glass of water.

[@grahamwhitworth9454]

These Tales from the Trams are now coming thick and fast. Keep 'em coming, Jago!

[@Andrewjg_89]

The Croydon Tramlink that was first introduced in service over 20 years ago changed the way how people in South London wanted to commute across South London and not relying on buses and have connections with trains and tube. Plus South London has never had London Underground extended apart from the Northern Line which was extended to Morden. And the District Line extended to Wimbledon and Richmond and Elephant and Castle on the Bakerloo Line.

[@simonadams71]

Another top video. Croydon feels very 28 Days Later, very baron and windswept with a lot of empty retail units and bars. Sainsbury's just closed their large store in The Whitgift Centre and even 'Spoons have pressed eject on 2 large pubs. A shame as the tram system is excellent, a great example of how transport could be in many British cities. Very well planned, utilising moribund railway lines and providing great transport hub connections. Shame the Sutton extension looks doomed thanks to the governments infantile withdrawal of TfL funding, and don't get me started on the dropped Crystal Palace extension, sad times.

[@eattherich9215]

'Croydon feels very 28 Days Later ...' Central Lewisham is beginning to feel the same with it's blight of tall residential towers, horrible road layout and a lot of poorly maintained shopfronts. Lewisham doesn't even have the consolations of the tram and the DLR starts and ends there.

[@avflashback8913]

You're 100% spot-on. I didn't know the Whitgift Sainsbury's had already closed. The last time I was in town it was open. That Sainsbury's was there forever. I remember when the checkouts were in the top left corner and you exited via the side doors next to the ATM. I don't know how WHsmith is still open. There are 10 people in the shop and half of them are staff. The Security men are stealing a living Seriously. When I was a teenager & young adult you could barely move in that shop it was Packed. I would be one of 20 or 30 people standing in the magazine section reading. Now the place is Dead. Every time I go into town a shop has closed. During Covid it was Debenhams then it was GAME then it was H&M and list keeps growing.

[@highpath4776]

I presume Sainsburys at Purley Way solves most needs (plus it has two ? three? locals very close ) , and Lidl has taken much of the basic buy trade.

[@simonadams71]

@@highpath4776Have checked and there are 4 Locals in the town centre, of course they are more expensive than supermarkets.

[@avflashback8913]

@@highpath4776 Purley Way Sainsbury's does solves most issues providing you live relatively close to it. But if you live in East, West or South Croydon and you want to do a big trolley sized shop then losing Whitgift Sainsbury's is a pain. Even though there are a lot of Sainsbury's and Tesco locals in the centre of Croydon they don't stock everything and they jack-up the price compared to the bigger supermarkets. East Croydon Waitrose's has already bit the dust a couple of months ago and that had 2 Sainsbury's locals less than 100 meters from it on the same road. But you still have to go the a big supermarkets to get the best deals. The small local supermarkets are only King when you're coming home from work using public transport. It's really late, and you're too tired to cook. They have saved me many times.

[@andrewrevans8496]

I can just about remember Queen Anne’s Mansions before they were demolished. I’m a huge fan of late Victorian and Edwardian mansion blocks; the ones round the Albert Hall and along Elgin Avenue are among my favourites. Peabody Estates might be a bit grim, but they likewise have a certain style. Queen Anne’s Mansions made no attempt to accompany their vast bulk with any sort of slick design or architectural bravado; they just looked utilitarian in a cheap and nasty way. I’m not sure that the Home Office building that replaced them is a lot better. It doesn’t fit the site particularly well.

[@iankemp1131]

Thanks, one of the unanswered questions I had from this video was what had happened to Queen Anne's mansions that started off the whole kerfuffle. So has the Queen (or King) got their view from Buck House back?

[@kgbgb3663]

The area directly around the main entrance to the Home Office buildings is pretty successful, imho. Back in the days when I still thought British TV worth watching occasionally, I saw news reports from there and thought it was really attractive. I must admit that when you step back and look at the whole thing, it's not so successful.

[@IndaloMan]

Your comment re IT becoming prevalent reminded me of the many trips I did in the 80s between The City and Poole which became a popular IT disaster recovery location only because it had a direct rail link to London. #goodolddays

[@marthaanderson2656]

I love learning about the historic and social history of the train lines and what gave rise, or fall, to a station or system

[@LeafLeafy]

Bust out laughing at your old computer footage. What a fascinating video! Glad to read the outpouring of love and support for your historian's credentials in the comments.

[@PupRiku]

I love London transport and I love Brutalist architecture...perfect video!

[@billsinkins361]

Very James Burke-esque... well done!

[@General_Confusion]

I will never mistakenly refer to you as a Historian Jago, good lord no.

[@wilsonlaidlaw]

After commuting via East Croydon for thirty five years, I used to have nightmares that I had died and gone to East Croydon, which was a third class purgatory.

[@peterjohncooper]

I was making tea so I heard it as "Doctor Tilbury." A gentle, white haired Dickensian old gentleman given to helping orphans and other waifs and strays.

[@iankemp1131]

One of the many examples of the Law of Unintended Consequences - here more beneficial than usual. I had an interview at the British Steel building in 1979 and was surprised that an organisation largely based in the north had its HQ in a tower block near East Croydon station. On connectivity, I was also surprised that nothing was ever done to have some sort of hub interchange at Gloucester Road (not Kensington, but the tangle of junctions between East Croydon and Norwood Junction). Even today it is ridiculously hard to get from the East London line to East Croydon to connect for the plethora of southward destinations - West Croydon is no use at all.

[@Olleetheowl]

Love,y story.I love these “Conections” type of stories.(A la James Burke).. informative, interesting and well up to your normal standard…

[@esmeephillips5888]

The architect (villain?) of 'Croydonization' was Sir James Marshall, the head of the borough council planning committee. He was determined to create Manhattan in south London: dual carriageways slicing through the old town center with glass-slab skyscrapers looming over them. He handed out planning permissions like royal favors and helped turn several developers into multi-millionaires. See Oliver Marriott's 'The Property Boom'. There had been pent-up demand for modern office space since the Blitz, while the motoring masses were seeking faster routes for their cheap new cars. So Croydon came to symbolize what the 1950s and 1960s thought was the future. The downsides were poor public transit and pedestrians dodging traffic in fume-filled streets. The old double-deck trams and trolleybuses were regarded as museum pieces. Marshall would have been horrified at the notion of trams gliding down main roads, pedestrianized shopping precincts and cars having to know their place.

[@robertbutlin3708]

And there are certainly suggestions that the Whitgift Foundation, who own much of Croydon were complicit in the wholesale redevelopment. Also I don’t think the timings are right for the 1960s office blocks. There was a deliberate move to get jobs out of Central London in the 60s; Croydon was not central London. In reality what happened was that Croydon got the lower end White Collar jobs and the high earning ones stayed in London. The Threepenny Bit or 50p building was Noble Lownes Associates an insurance company. Back in the day there will have been a huge paper based claims and policy processing system and Croydon was where it was done. Same for Commercial Union. So in the end Croydon mortgaged its Victorian heritage for shops and white collar processing jobs; both of which were killed by the Internet.

[@seanbonella]

Trams are very good for today. Never should have gone out.... Great again Jago on a Sunday

[@ianthomson9363]

I was in Croydon on Friday, testing the new Superloopy buses (a reasonably good idea, except they get caught in traffic just like normal buses- an underground train would have been better but nobody has the required amount of money for that). It's not a nice place, and all the tall buildings mean your satnav won't be able to find you. PS I got the 200th 'Like' of this video, more than 150 more 'Likes' have been added in the twenty minutes since then. Jago's definitely doing something right!

[@heptanesykes]

You may only claim to be cosplaying a historian, Jago, but I thoroughly enjoyed your tale of connections. More of the same please. "🎶Cause and effect, chain of events, All of the chaos makes perfect sense🎶" - Joe Diffle

[@princecharon]

A much more 'Connections'-esque episode than I was expecting, but a good one. Also, I agree, an amateur historian who puts this much effort into researching his subjects is certainly a real historian.

[@neilbain8736]

Ah. Connections. Indeed. James Burke's Connections was a popular tv prog which has got to over 40 or even not far off 50 yrs ago now. Some of us will remember it well.

[@eddisstreet]

When I first started work in 1971 my office was in Queen Anne's Chambers, just across the road from Queen Anne's Mansions which was being demolished at the time to make way for a new home for the Home Office.

[@cinemaipswich4636]

London, Paris and New York had a 5 story limit for a while. This is because the fire tender's ladder could reach that high. Bigger ladders were contemplated, but they settled on 5 stories.

[@9x9gaming85]

finally! im sick and i binged your channel, so i needed a new video

[@simonwinter8839]

Get well soon !!

[@jgodfrey546]

Wishing you a speedy recovery!

[@grahambaker7563]

Just watched this video of yours , Jago! As always, I found it both entertaining and enjoyable. And it's good to know that you don't just cover the Underground!! Keep up the great work!!

[@roderickmain9697]

As others have noted, the term "Historian" fits you rather well. This is nicely researched and put together to make the case. As you will have noticed before, I am not a fan of the Brutalist style of architecture. Apart from being ugly (OK, tastes change) they never seem to last that long. 40 years on and some of them need replacing (I'm really questioning the building materials and construction here otherwise I'd say ALL of them need replacing). These buildings made no apology for not fitting in and with Croydon you could say there was little left to fit in with. IMHO, these buildings are soulless concrete blocks. I've seen Croydon described as a subtopian city state. Maybe if they had continued with the airport it might have given it more reason to be connected to the centre. Maybe there were plans ...."I have in my hand a piece of paper...."

[@31Elie]

Very interesting. I live in proximity to the southern areas in your video and work in the northern part. Nice to know how they connect up in this context. Also like the little humorous quips you mix in :).

[@dodgydruid]

Being Croydon born I always am up for some Croydon videoing :D Its funny that the oddly shaped tower block built in the roundabout near E Croydon station seems to have been always there. Still I did my growing up not in Croydon but Gravesend and Bromley both thankfully clear skylines at least.

[@ZGryphon]

Whenever I hear this particular place name, all I can think of is Ford Prefect demanding, "What do you mean you've met? This is Zaphod Beeblebrox from Betelgeuse Five, you know, not bloody Martin Smith from Croydon."

[@davidsummer8631]

No. 1 Croydon was designed by Richard Seifert who designed some iconic and tall buildings in London area one of which is Tower 42 a.k.a NatWest Tower

[@julianellis8200]

What a fascinating approach to development! Thanks, Jago.

[@ShedTV]

I expect, Mr Hazzard, you've read Concretopia by John Grindrod. For anybody else interested in postwar architecture, it's a very interesting and amusing read.

[@JagoHazzard]

I have! Very worth a read.

[@jumpingjeffflash9946]

i just spent a week there in London, 3-9 Dec. I was thinking of you as I was in the train/tube stations. The rail strike wasn't too much of an inconvenience, thankfully the tube and national rail apps and a kind man on the DLR helped. I told the man of my plight and he told me to skip my plan and get to London Bridge station for the train to Gatwick, it worked out great. You have an awesome city there, I enjoy it.

[@thomasburke2683]

You are the big bang to my rolling stock exchange. Hard to believe that it was in 1986.

[@geoffbarry9540]

I grew up in this period - my Gran lived five minutes slow walk from East Croydon station in Oval Road and travelled up to London daily, for at least 20 years that I know of, to practise as a clairvoyant from rooms in Oxford Street (strange but true!). I commuted from New Addington for four years - 63-67 - to first school and then work. I'd love to have been able to take the tram...

[@highpath4776]

The years of the XA class of buses on the 130 series of Bus Routes ?

[@rick11960]

So she didn't need the TFL/SWR Live Times App ?

[@geoffbarry9540]

No, she always allowed herself an hour for the full journey from EC to Vic and then across town; and the fast services then were advertised as 10 minutes to London, which I often experienced as a small child when taken by her to the newsreel and cartoon theatre that used to exist at Victoria...I even managed the journey behind steam on occasions, courtesy of the Oxted line services which were fast from EC to town.

[@StLouis-yu9iz]

Great video as usual! I love all forms of rail travel, however trams (or trolleys as we say here in the U.S.) are my favorite. I just wish EVERY major city in the English speaking world would continue rebuilding our lost streetcar networks!

[@TfL1901]

I learnt about some of this in a documentary called Masters of The Universe, on the BBC, manny years ago. A great doc. This is a great video

[@TfL1901]

But it didn’t include the Croydon link

[@sockstarnik]

Yeah your historical insights are excellent. I’ve only visited Croydon once, primarily to ride of the tram. Tram was great, Croydon though 😦

[@markellis6413]

Interesting take that Croydon is poorly connected with transport links, considering it became so big because of its easy transport links for commuters to both the city & west end. East Croydon has also become so busy, they've spent the past 40-50 years talking about expanding East Croydon station & untying the Selhurst knot..

[@MrSmith1984]

The fact that 40-50 years pass by and nothing is still done about Transport/Infrastructure issues says a lot about Britain. A country that doesn't invest in it's Transport, Infrastructure & Housing and thus is in Economic Decline.

[@iankemp1131]

What always struck me about the Croydon area was the lcak of interchange and connectivity so that sepearte traisn ran to East and West Croydon and it halved the frequency on each. Always wondered whether the SGloucester Road (Selhutrs) junctions could have been remodelled more effectively to allow some interchange platforms. Felt like an opportunity missed. Even now I found that to get from the East London line to East Croydon it was quicker to change to the Jubilee at Canada Water and go via London Bridge.

[@markellis6413]

​@@iankemp1131I didn't even mention the BML2 proposal which would have reused the line from Sanderstead to Elmers End with a new Croydon Interchange station at the site of the former Selsdon station. Fascinating proposal even though it was impractical as it gave no plan on what to do with the Tramlink..

[@iankemp1131]

@@markellis6413 I may be missing something, but it sounds a bit odd as the lesson of the last 150 years seems to have been that very few passengers want to travel from Elmers End to Sanderstead. Tramlink has been successful because it connected both branches directly to Croydon, where people actually wanted to go. It is tempting though to think of possible uses for the Coombe Road to Selsdon section.

[@dambrooks7578]

I remember iBig Bang all too well 🎉my brother was born just after my sister and the growth of Docklands and some musician that used lasers to play beyond that it was typical 80s tripe... I have only worked briefly in Croydon and would like it if tram lines could be on at least the High Road as it begins in London Bridge and keeps going to Norwich, even if they are rather people I don't know.

[@1234j]

Ah, the law of unexpected consequences. Great video. Thank you.

[@PS-pp7kn]

The structure at 3:15 looks like a steam boat. Great!

[@KaitlynnUK]

I'm too intrigued by the cause and effect of history. For example, I wouldnt be here if wasnt for WW2 Luftwaffe pilot dropping on a bomb on my paternal grandparents house, in central Birmingham in 1940. My grandparents where then rehoused out at Ward End, where my maternal grandparents lived, and where years later my parents would meet at a local cinema. My father would never have frequented that particular cinema if he had continued to live in central Brum.

[@highpath4776]

In London one could argue it was the 1960s blocks along London Wall that had become (Economic) Life expired for modern trading Canary Whaft/Docklands had tax advantages so the Corporation had to go big to overcome the competitive edge Docklands had. Croydon's 1960s office buildings the two main tenants were Nestles in their building (what was it) ( we competed at our much missed Thames Ditton office of Dairy Crest for their food technologists ). and Brook Bond (was that Unilever ?) at Lyon House (was that Lyon House built by (slightly dodgy) Richard Lyon developer ?) Didnt the RAC have the 50p bit building ? Thankfully the earlier and lower Electra house appears saved as part of one of the Collegeversities that have appeared all over suburban London (presumably with all the Migrant Students in them, if they cut down such migration we will end up with some empty buildings and lack of academics)

[@iankemp1131]

Which building did British Steel occupy in the late 70s and early 80s? It was near Est Croydon station. I had an interview there once, so it has always intrigued me.

[@mr51406]

James Burke would love this video. ⭐️ Who else remembers his great “Connections” series?

[@kidmohair8151]

I did enjoy this video, and I am therefore leaving a comment as well. if I may say though I really liked your video from 2 days ago but by the time I got to watching it, comments had been (ahem) "paused" in the tube-y'all parlance... you are a brave man to point out the illogical fallacies of the various nutjobs who find a conspiracy under every leaf in their fantasy gardens, and I applaud you for it!

[@LastofAvari]

One of the best historians on the web!🌍🎓🚂

[@keith800]

Yes another interesting video , Croydon was looked apon as another " Manhattan " at one time , where it gained was cheaper rent than central London plus saving on London waiting allowance on staffing costs which encouraged company's to move outwards , and now with the slow demise of the office block they are becoming white elephants such as Delta point that has now been converted into apartments .

[@bunbunzeri1990]

I like to watch/listen to the end of your videos just to know what I am to your whatever that is yours. Great video again, as always!

[@ayindestevens6152]

As a tour guide the weird cause and effects I’ve observed are definitely very interesting

[@carlmichael5592]

Loving the accountant gag..

[@bob_the_bomb4508]

You forget the other major disadvantage of Croydon: it hosts the Whitgift Centre, the world’s largest pissoir…