How AI pioneer Doug Hofstadter wrote Gödel, Escher, Bach

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Game Thinking TV

Күн бұрын

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@BP-le8wc Жыл бұрын

It's amazing that this interview even exists, one thousand thanks to you people!!

@GameThinkingTV Жыл бұрын

So glad you enjoyed it! Please share with your network to spread the love

@danechegoyen3550 4 ай бұрын

GEB changed my life thirty eight years ago. I gained the perspective that, in the abstract, all things can be compared to all other things. The implications took over three decades to flesh out. Connecting the abstract subjective with the concrete objective with rigorous scientific metaphysics provided the insights reasoned speculation of my video: THE STRUCTURE OF EXISTENCE. kzbin.info/www/bejne/i3Wqlousebeqnbcsi=RXkv_9IB0PWFsCl3

@peter.g6 Жыл бұрын

Wow, this is an amazing interview. 100% signal, 0% noise, and explained with shocking clarity. Thanks a lot!

@GameThinkingTV Жыл бұрын

So glad you enjoyed the interview! We worked hard to edit it down to 100% signal - you noticed, and that means a lot ❤️

@nicolasolton 4 ай бұрын

What does that mean 100% signal and no noise? Can you explain this please? Thank you!

@youtube-username-placeholder 4 ай бұрын

@@nicolasolton signal = useful information noise = distracting, irrelevant stuff I guess Peter means that this talk was straight to the point

@RogerMillerInVA 4 ай бұрын

This piece is a joy. I read this book 45 years ago and loved it. This interview brings it to life again. Such a joy. Thank you.

@Kyzyl_Tuva 4 ай бұрын

GEB was one of those epic books from my undergrad days that influenced me for the rest of my life. I have re-read it every year for the past 40 years. Thank you Douglas.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

We feel the same & are SO grateful to have read this book & gotton to know Doug❤️

@robscovell5951 4 ай бұрын

From your name I guess you like Feynman?😊

@nicolasolton 4 ай бұрын

@@robscovell5951or Sergei Shoigu? What makes you say Feynman?

@robscovell5951 4 ай бұрын

@@nicolasolton Back in the 80s people who were into Hofstadter were often also into Feynman, and Feynman was famously obsessed with getting to Kyzyl, Tuva, despite it being the time of the cold war.

@danechegoyen3550 4 ай бұрын

@@GameThinkingTV GEB changed my life thirty eight years ago. I gained the perspective that, in the abstract, all things can be compared to all other things. The implications took over three decades to flesh out. Connecting the abstract subjective with the concrete objective with rigorous scientific metaphysics provided the insights reasoned speculation of my video: THE STRUCTURE OF EXISTENCE. kzbin.info/www/bejne/i3Wqlousebeqnbcsi=RXkv_9IB0PWFsCl3

@fang_shi_tong 4 ай бұрын

My PhD supervisor gave me a copy of GEB back in the early 80s. I tried several times to get into it, but found it completely impenetrable. After this video, I’m tempted to have another go.

@StefanReich 4 ай бұрын

Really? What is so inaccessible about it

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

Wow - that's a huge compliment, I'm so glad you got re-inspired! ❤️❤️❤️

@danechegoyen3550 4 ай бұрын

@faville 4 ай бұрын

@@StefanReichI’m not the op but I can relate-I was the third in a line of musicians to receive this book “handed down in defeat” and after a few attempts also passed it on. I am simply not math-minded and I couldn’t understand even the early concepts and example problems (which people in forums/reviews found delightfully engaging and approachable). As much as I love Escher and have performed and love Bach, I felt if I couldn’t wrap my head around the basics upon which the book was being built, there was no point in moving on. I do respect numbers and the ability to have a richer intellectual life with their conceptual webs, which I suppose is why I keep hovering around the edges like this.

@hurdygurdyguy1 4 ай бұрын

Same here.... math fascinates me but a lot of it goes way over my head!

@GregDunn123 4 ай бұрын

I had the pleasure of meeting Dr. Hofstadter at a lecture series he delivered at Butler University some time ago. I subsequently attended a couple of his poetry readings and ended up being invited to his house for the anniversary of GEB in 1999. Not only is his thinking clear and precise, so are his presentations. Hope he continues sharing his thoughts and wisdom for many more years.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

What a great story! Thanks for sharing, so glad you enjoyed this❤️❤️

@ArielPettyjohn 4 ай бұрын

Love Doug. I had the pleasure of having him as a teacher for three different classes when I went to school in Bloomington, spanning typography, history and philosophy of science, and geometry. He's a true polymath and a brilliant teacher: very intense and intellectually demanding, but never harsh or one to waste your time with busywork. I've had a lot of fantastic professors over the years, but Doug is really his own breed, and incredibly generous. He would always go out of his way to lend myself and other students his personal copies of books when he could, and even designed an ambigram for a student association where I was a director as a favor. He's also quite amusing even when being critical: he had trouble finding anything wrong with a grid-based font I'd designed, so he honed in on its kerning and just said wryly "That's cute" 💀 It's great to finally hear him talk more about his own story, so thank you for making this interview happen 🙏

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

Thank you for sharing your story - so meaningful & touching to hear about your experiences with Doug.❤️

@danechegoyen3550 4 ай бұрын

@huguesbornet1211 4 ай бұрын

GEB impressed me so much as foreign student in California that I wanted to translate it to French, my mother tongue, realizing it would be so challenging and exciting. A few years later real translations came about and I read GEB in 4 languages to get a new view of what I enjoyed so much. Translations have that effect. And face much more vocabulary than I otherwise would need in those languages. There may now exist more languages that I did not chase and will keep the exercise at that. Enjoying re-reading the first book on occasions.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

What a wonderful story! Thanks for sharing.

@tonypcoyle 4 ай бұрын

I first read GEB at age 14. and again at 15, 16, 17,18, ad infinitum. It has been on my bookshelf forever and I still find it a fabulous read almost 50 years later!

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

that's amazing! thanks for sharing your experience!

@nicolasolton 4 ай бұрын

Is it written for teenagers in mind? Thanks.

@tonypcoyle 4 ай бұрын

@@nicolasolton the answer is both yes and no. Is the teenager precocious? Are they interested in art and science, math and philosophy, cognition and theories of mind? Do they enjoy challenging word play and logic puzzles? Are they intrigued by patterns, fractals, self-similarity, the emergence of complex behaviors from apparently simple systems? If so - then hell yes. If not - then maybe just ask them if they'd enjoy it. I'm also sure you can find the odd chapter online somewhere - so they have an opportunity to preview it. I was, admittedly, weird - and I still am in many ways. But I'm not (and was not) unique or special. Just different enough to embrace the absolutely mind expanding cognitive trip that GEB delivered.

@danechegoyen3550 4 ай бұрын

@connobora Жыл бұрын

GEB is a fabulous book. One of my all time favorites. The way Doug has been able to discuss so many aspects and still intertwine in a beautiful way is such legendary writing. I read it so many years back but I still relate to the concept of strange loops in everyday life. Thanks for sharing this.

@GameThinkingTV Жыл бұрын

Thanks for your comment! I felt the same way💖

@danechegoyen3550 4 ай бұрын

@theronwolf3296 5 ай бұрын

I stumbled onto GEB back in the earl 80s when I was about 30 years old. Whenever someone asks what is my personal most influential book GEB is always my answer. The whole of everything started to make much more sense... I wound up plunging myself back into math and technology, and it wound up altering my career path until retirement.

@GameThinkingTV 5 ай бұрын

WOW - that's great to hear!

@nicolasolton 4 ай бұрын

What career path did you choose?

@theronwolf3296 4 ай бұрын

@@nicolasolton I got back working in an dental equipment engineering group and eventually got into primarily software. I spent the last 30 years before retirement primarily doing database development and administration (SQL became my native language) for global corporation.

@danechegoyen3550 4 ай бұрын

@bipmix 4 ай бұрын

Doug, this conversation was a refreshing discovery after many years of reading the book and spending time on Russell, WIttgenstein, Feynman and Penrose, trying to get a clear definition of consciousness. i wasn't very successful until I went to Japan and spent 12 years studying Zen Buddhism and playing their temple music. It dawned on me that when you are talking about Godel, Bach and music, you are describing a Zen oriented state of mind, different from wat we know to be the case in the West, or at least that's what it sounds If you translated it all to Japanese, you would have a new audience..! great work.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

Thanks so much!

@danechegoyen3550 4 ай бұрын

@effestop 4 ай бұрын

Most influential book I read in my life.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

Same.

@nct948 4 ай бұрын

such an an amazing book, recommended to me by a KZbinr following one of my comments about 3 years ago. I unfortunately lack the brain to appreciate it fully, but with perseverance I can nibble at its phenomenal amount of knowledge and enrich my understanding of both art and science. I am so glad to hear more about its author as it might allow me to delve deeper into his ideas. Thank you for your presentation and I have subscribed to your channel to hear more.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

So glad you enjoyed our interview! Look forward to having you in the tribe :-)

@itsabitovahill873 3 ай бұрын

It blew my mind about four decades ago. Great interview - thank you. It can't be unblown - the resulting state change is not reversible, regardless of the decades.

@GameThinkingTV 3 ай бұрын

We know EXACTLY what you mean - Doug's been blowing minds for decades :-)

@scottekim Жыл бұрын

Have you read GEB? Or wanted to? I'm thinking about making a follow-up video for those who want to read Gödel, Escher, Bach, but find it's length and density daunting. Let me know if you'd be interested in seeing that.

@GameThinkingTV Жыл бұрын

love to see this👍🏽

@ranchoplays9946 Жыл бұрын

When are you going to do it ?

@scottkim8818 9 ай бұрын

@@ranchoplays9946 I should be able to get to it this summer.

@ranchoplays9946 9 ай бұрын

@@scottkim8818 is it goin to be free on youtube.... One more request i have ... can u please convince hofstadter to do more interviews..it'd be very great..thank you

@glenliesegang233 6 ай бұрын

The translation of numbers into symbols and the use of logical symbols with set theory cannot be simplified enough for some of us to really grasp 2:52 My brain kept aching like a stomach asked to eat 10 more slices of delicious cake.

@q-tuber7034 4 ай бұрын

So great to see this hero on video. GEB was the most formative book I read as a teen in the late 80s, early 90s.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

WOW - that's so cool to hear, so glad you enjoyed seeing Doug ❤️ What do you remember most about GEB? Anything in particular stick with you?

@q-tuber7034 4 ай бұрын

@@GameThinkingTV No one thing stands out of GEB at this distance, but I wrote my college application essay about the book, and then went on at an Ivy League school to study history of science, with a focus on the history of logic, which meant taking courses in the math, philosophy, and computer science departments, including a course entirely devoted to Gödel’s theorem. I also devoured Metamagical Themas, and one thing that stood out there was (if I am not mistaken) Doug’s coinage of the term “meme,” which now has taken on a life of its own.

@wolf-bass 4 ай бұрын

What a surprise to find such an amazing interview of one of my favorite authors. Thank you so much! I’ve read GEB several times, and each time I’ve discovered more and more of the cryptographic secrets hidden in the text; messages hidden in the first letters of each sentence, hidden palindrome syntax, text written in augmentation and inversion, and the fact that the entire book is an endlessly upward modulating self-referential exposition contained within the fugue, within the fugue, etc. AND explained Gödel in a way that anyone could understand. Amazing! My deepest thanks and respect!

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

You're welcome! We're thrilled that you enjoyed this interview.

@nicolasolton 4 ай бұрын

Could you point out some of the secrets hidden in the text? Thanks!

@wolf-bass 4 ай бұрын

@@nicolasolton It’s been many years since I’ve read GEB, so I can’t give you specifics without looking over the book again. But I can tell you this much; every time you find that his wording is somehow slightly unnatural or his choice of words seems a little bit unusual, whenever a word is capitalized for no apparent reason, or when the order of the words is a bit strange, you will almost always find that he did it in order to produce a hidden message. Sometimes, taking the first word of every paragraph creates another sentence, sometimes taking the first letter of every word in a sentence creates a new word. Some are palindromes or palindromic sentences. The messages are always somehow related to the topic at hand, so for example, when he’s discussing DNA, the character names have the same initials as the four nucleotides used in DNA and they relate to each other in a way similar to his discussion of nucleotides. When he discusses self reference, the text will be self-referential. When he discusses the fugue, the text obviously is also a fugue… but it also contains the other composing techniques he mentioned, including augmentation and inversion. The only specific “treat“ that I can think of offhand, is that the entire book begins with the words “Author:“. Why is that? It’s because the end of the book, the “Author” joins the discussion among the other characters of an Endlessy Rising Canon. The book itself actually becomes the continuation of that conversation, which ends with the very conversation that it’s a part of, ad infinitum, making the book itself an Endlessly Rising Canon!

@NeilRoseman 3 ай бұрын

Great interview Amy Jo! I first read GEB in college shortly after it came out. My mathematical logic class introduced me to this book and the great Raymond Smullyan’s “What is the Name of This Book” which teaches Godel’s theorem using a series of logic puzzles. Both of those books have traveled with me ever since.

@GameThinkingTV 3 ай бұрын

Wow - that's great to hear! GEB FTW

@Markevans36301 4 ай бұрын

For me it is his later work I Am A Strange Loop that grabbed me and I am so thankful that he was able to write of such complex ideas in a way understandable by a mere mortal such as myself.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

So interesting... thanks for sharing your experience!

@danechegoyen3550 4 ай бұрын

@MiguelRamosLIve 4 ай бұрын

WOW! Thank you for this interview. And Douglas, THANK YOU. GEB is one of my two favorite books ever. I refer to it often some 40 years after reading it. I had known D. Hofstadter from his fabulously smart (and endlessly recursive) Hofstadter's Law that says: "Everything takes longer than expected, even if you take Hofstadter's Law into account". I also read your other gem: "The Minds I"

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

Thanks for the appreciate - we'll pass along your comments to Doug that'll mean a lot.

@Nightriser271828 3 ай бұрын

I just attributed this to being ADHD and time blindness.

@cosmobiologist 4 ай бұрын

Love this! I only just now read GEB in the past year, over the age of 40. Given my young dalliances in mathematics and exploring books of the works of Escher and Roger Dean, it’s rather surprising to me I missed out for so long. And it really was a missing out. I think GEB at a younger age would have inspired my career in a different direction. But now that I’m an astrobioogist and popularizer of science, I feel like the time is also right for it to impact my next steps and my own writing and thinking. Many thanks for providing this interview and Hoftstadter’s story on creating GEB.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

WOW - what a great story! Thanks for sharing.

@bjh3661 28 күн бұрын

Lovely presenter. Dynamic, engaging and above all, enjoying herself. Bravo.

@GameThinkingTV 27 күн бұрын

Thanks so much, glad you enjoyed the video

@h.hickenanaduk8622 3 ай бұрын

I started reading GEB when it first came out around 84. Still working the MIU puzzle. Feels like I'm close. Can't imagine what I'll do when I get it. Probably just finish the book. Can't wait to find out Hof's point to this puzzle. I'm just proud I never gave up or jumped the loop. Be nice to see my friends and family again. Thanks Hof.

@GameThinkingTV 3 ай бұрын

Thanks for your comment!

@josephcote6120 4 ай бұрын

I read about GEB in Martin Gardner's column. Picked it up and it quickly became my favorite book ever. I still make a point or re-reading it every two or three years as there is something new still to be gleaned from it.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

Great story!

@tubesomething 4 ай бұрын

Hofstadter is wearing the chunky cardigan from The Big Lebowski! What a legend.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

It's his favorite sweater!

@jimmy21584 4 ай бұрын

This book was really influential on me and my friends in our undergrad years; great to hear his thoughts in the age of LLMs.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

So glad you enjoyed our interview!

@jeremywilliams5107 4 ай бұрын

A schoolmate bought it and brought it into our class when I was 16 or 17 and I liked the idea (i was a classical music freak and knew Escher's work, which helped). I found it in a library, and bought it when i could afford it a few years later. It's still on my bookshelves in a terrible state from the use it's had over the years. Funny to see it coming back into focus so many years later.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

That's what happens when a book is a classic - goes in & out of style, but always relevant

@freesk8 2 ай бұрын

I read GEB in about 1980 while at the end of High School. What a wonderful book! :)

@GameThinkingTV 2 ай бұрын

Agreed it's a mind-blowing read 🤯

@LetsGo-nw2nr 4 ай бұрын

Thanks so much for making and publishing this interview! The book was a favourite of mine in the early eighties.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

So glad you enjoyed it! Doug is a gem💎

@rthompsn2007 5 ай бұрын

Wow! Just stumbled upon this. I read and was fascinated by GEB in the 80s (heard of it from Martin Gardner of course), and have sometimes wondered what Hofstadter would think of today's generation of AI in the ChatGPT and forward era. Didn't know he was still with us - great video. Am subscribing.

@GameThinkingTV 5 ай бұрын

Awesome! Glad you enjoyed the conversation. Doug is indeed alive & well, & a longtime friend. We look forward to having you as a subscriber.

@ericsieverling3934 4 ай бұрын

I discovered GEB when I was in high school, and it had a huge influence on me that has persisted for all the decades since. The book that he co-edited with Daniel Dennett, "The Mind's I", was also a huge influence.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

Same - LOVE those book! Thanks for your comment.

@apocalipsereich6997 26 күн бұрын

❤❤❤❤ I can't believe I just finished an interview with this great brain❤

@GameThinkingTV 26 күн бұрын

So glad you enjoyed our interview! Doug is a gem💎

@Californiansurfer 4 ай бұрын

1980. I was with my Dad and we were at a junk yard and I found the book Gödel, Escher, Bach , my Dad was happy that i was reading. I loved the diagrams and ideas, my Dad keep it and here is a pen. Figure out what they say, use your pin as working on a car. well, I read the book back and forth that I read all his boos. 2016. I worked in jeffersonville indiana and visited Indianas univeririty. I saw mr. Hofstadter. He said, hello. Priceless. 😅😅

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

What a great story! Thanks for sharing ❤️

@DebraSalamone 4 ай бұрын

I usually ignore comments that have not been proofread, but I find yours very interesting and would like to know what you are saying. Start after the part about being at a junk yard. Please, seriously. There is an edit option available for your convenience. Sincerely and respectfully, I want to know.

@Californiansurfer 3 ай бұрын

@@DebraSalamone The book Gödel, Escher, Bach by Douglas Hofstadter When, I found the book it was huge, the diagnoses , the art and algorithms were interesting and like a puzzle. My Dad said, “keep it and here is a pen to figure it out. Man, that journey and that book is still reverent today. It’s all a loop. Life is a cycle, we live in loop.

@Jim-uq1mc 4 ай бұрын

It's definitely one of my favorite books and I enjoyed it so much reading it back then. Great interview with Douglas Hofstadter. Woohoo -> he is one of those rare Americans, who get the pronounciation of 'Bach' right!

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

Glad you enjoyed our interview! Doug is a gem 💎

@drivers99 4 ай бұрын

I was trying to figure out who “Scott” was so started searching and it’s Scott Kim who started Game Thinking which I recognize is the name of this channel.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

Aha! We should make that clearer in the video, thanks for your feedback.

@PuzzledMonkey 3 ай бұрын

I met Scott at a puzzle party in Palo Alton back in the 80s. Ask him if he still has the moebius Turks head.

@Zenocrat 4 ай бұрын

Very enjoyable interview. Thank you.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

Our pleasure! Glad you enjoyed it. Anything in particular catch your attention?

@ThomasMann85643 4 ай бұрын

I loved this book. Took a while and much concentration to finish it. Surprised it won the National Book award as what editor could understand its symbolic logic?

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

LOL I guess he wow-ed 'em

@Thomas-h4n5h 4 ай бұрын

Great explanation by Douglas Hofstadter. Thank you for bringing it to us.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

You're welcome! So glad you enjoyed this - we had a blast creating it.

@Diachron 4 ай бұрын

GEB changed the way I thought about the world. Thanks for sharing.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

So glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for watching

@kuang-yuliu2702 4 ай бұрын

Thanks!

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

Thank you so much! Appreciate it.

@wbaumschlager 3 ай бұрын

Imagine the challenge of translating GEB to other languages. It's like adding an extra level of complexity and it worked out great at least for German ("ein Endloses Geflochtenes Band"). Kudos to the translator.

@GameThinkingTV 3 ай бұрын

Amazing!

@scottekim 3 ай бұрын

Doug was worked closely with many of the translators, especially for French (in which he is fluent), and Chinese (which he also speaks). He prepared an annotated copy of GEB to help translators know where all the tricky references are.

@wbaumschlager 3 ай бұрын

@@scottekim I would like to see that annotations. Could be helpful for the poor reader too :)

@GodelEscherSpock 3 ай бұрын

And DH has a whole other book on translation

@JWentu 4 ай бұрын

When I am asked which are the most important books I have ever read, I am always proud in replying: the Selfish Gene by Dawkins and Godel Escher Bach by Hofstadter. They so profoundly shaped my mind that I can confidently say I would be a totally different person in the way I look at the world. I have an immense debt of gratitude toward these two authors and their work.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

So great to hear! Thanks for your comment, that'll mean a lot to Doug

@hurdygurdyguy1 4 ай бұрын

I tried reading GE&B back in the '80's... couldn't do it, couldn't get past 15 or 20 pages...ever since I'd been thinking should I try again?

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

YES! It's worth getting through - especially if you have folks to discuss it with...

@StevePotter 4 ай бұрын

Wonderful interview of my favorite author and thinker. I would LOVE to hear a follow up about his 2nd greatest book, Metamagical Themas. This is a much more readable collection of ideas. His "Person paper on purity in language" is the most clever satire I have ever read, and still very current.😊

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

Thanks for your feedback, we'll consider doing a followup!

@TheAntibozo 4 ай бұрын

Is the Scott Kim you mention in the introduction the graphic artist of "Inversions"?

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

DING! you are correct - Scott Kim & his partner Amy Jo Kim run this channel. Great to have you here! How do you know Scott & his work?

@TheAntibozo 4 ай бұрын

@@GameThinkingTV I don't recall for sure but i do have a copy of Inversions and love it. It has been many a year since i read GEB so maybe he was mentioned there and i simply forgot? On a side note i have a private theory that Christopher Nolan read GEB and based Inception (2010) on the Little Harmonic Labyrinth dialogue.

@scottekim 3 ай бұрын

Yes, that's me! Check out your copy of Inversions and you'll see that Doug wrote the foreword for my book. Doug is a lifelong practitioner of ambigrams too, and I just wrote a foreword for his forthcoming Ambigrammia book...I plan on interviewing him about his book for this channel in 2025 when the book comes out.

@TheAntibozo 3 ай бұрын

@@scottekim That is excellent news. Very pleased to make your acquaintance. I look forward to the Ambigrammia book!

@AllenKnutson 3 ай бұрын

What a revelation to learn that Freeman Dyson was pivotal in getting GEB published. I admire him even more!

@GameThinkingTV 3 ай бұрын

Sharing behind-the-scenes info is what KZbin was made for :-)

@Vgallo 4 ай бұрын

Can we pls get this book on audible pls

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

Oooo that would be amazing!

@Vgallo 2 ай бұрын

@@GameThinkingTV they’ve got I am a strange loop on there

@TrenBlack 10 ай бұрын

Just got GEB!

@GameThinkingTV 10 ай бұрын

Wow - let us know what you think of it, and what catches your interest once you've dug in

@uwejacobs4021 2 ай бұрын

I remember so vividly when it came out in its German translation and we were still in high school there and devoured it. Two or three freaks among the hundred students, that is😂. I did both AP Physics and AP Music and was a fan of Bach. Whatever I did or didn’t grasp, it was a thrill!

@GameThinkingTV 2 ай бұрын

We can relate - this is a book that some VERY SPECIFIC people are drawn to. If you know, you know. :-)

@iaincook5835 Ай бұрын

Bought in 1980, still on my shelf.

@GameThinkingTV Ай бұрын

a classic👏🏽

@patrickcorliss8878 4 ай бұрын

The Turing Test wasn't really designed to see if a computer could think. The crux of Turing's idea was that a computer is like a black box which accepts input and produces output. Nobody needs to know how it works but if you want to simulate intelligence you can have a dialog with the machine. If it responds in an apparently intelligent way then you can say it appears to be able to think. In other words it avoids any argument about whether the machine is alive or conscious etc. It responds AS IF it is intelligent and can think.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

Interesting... need to think about this.

@jtd8719 5 ай бұрын

I'd like to read Professor Gebstadter's reportedly similar book (mentioned in the bibliography). I'd probably need to live on an alternate-history Earth to find a copy, however. In seriousness, thanks for sharing this. I also very much enjoyed Le Ton Beau de Marot in which he discusses (among other things) the writing of GEB and the translation of GEB into other languages.

@GameThinkingTV 5 ай бұрын

LOL

@JAYDUBYAH29 3 ай бұрын

Such good., thank you. Top 3 favorite book of all time.

@GameThinkingTV 3 ай бұрын

So glad you enjoyed the video! We love the book too

@robbybobbyhobbies 4 ай бұрын

I’ve owned this book since 1987 (last year at school). I still haven’t finished reading it. I make regular attempts but most often get bogged down in the ps and qs. I try to follow along with each axiom and theory but eventually my brain goes “ping” and tells me to walk away. I write this not as a critique of the work, more of my ADHD and focus issues. I’ll know a drug or therapy works for me when I finally finish reading this important work.

@nct948 4 ай бұрын

good test, I guess. I have first met the book when I was 73, so have a lot to absorb and comprehend before I complete my reading of it, when my brain wants to shut down!

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

LOL love this :-)

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

Perfect :-)

@janglestick Ай бұрын

interesting, scott kim who does the inversion writing? I used to see him at a math conferences, a very cool guy

@GameThinkingTV Ай бұрын

Scott is the co-creator of this channel! Small world.

@Julia-Richter 4 ай бұрын

This book had a deep inpact on me.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

Same. Deep & lasting impact.

@f.demascio1857 5 ай бұрын

GEB is still in my top 3 favorite books.

@GameThinkingTV 5 ай бұрын

For us too - a timeless classic. Sounds like you are a kindred spirit.

@kkklllaaa1234 4 ай бұрын

Which ones are the other two? Always looking for new things to read

@worldnotworld 4 ай бұрын

Amazing. Very influential book for me, aged 14. I don't quite agree with the end: the consciousness that the "thinking" Hofstadter observes in ChatGPT is the consciousness of its creators, not of "ChatGPT" (whatever that is) itself. But the issues are at least on the table thanks to his work.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

Thanks for sharing - glad you found Doug's work as powerful as we did.

@MannyEspinola-q4t 4 ай бұрын

Thank you for this video

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

Our pleasure! So glad you like it.

@spitimalamati 4 ай бұрын

I read the book when it first came out. As a Chem Engineer, I found it fascinating, but sadly years later, I gave my copy to a Comp Sci friend. I wish I had my original copy, with my notes in the margins.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

That would be AMAZING

@stephanheumann1566 2 ай бұрын

Is any formal system that prohibits self-reference isomorphic with the set of all sets that do not contain themselves?

@GameThinkingTV 2 ай бұрын

Um.... not sure.

@thatmckenzie 4 ай бұрын

the choice of our words defines what we will see in the choice of our words

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

Love it!

@thatmckenzie 4 ай бұрын

Thank you. I discovered a copy of Metamagical Themas deep in the stacks when I went to university. Nothing was ever the same afterward. :)

@jimslancio 4 ай бұрын

Yes, it's a haiku.

@willemakkermans4067 4 ай бұрын

"Ideas

@tonypcoyle 4 ай бұрын

My take (from GEB) is that consciousness is an emergent property of particularly complex systems - which has always made more sense to me (especially as fMRI research showed we become aware of our conscious decisions sometime after the decision is actually made). And you really should read GEB. Awesome book, even if (and especially if) you disagree with its premises

@carlosenriquegonzalez-isla6523 4 ай бұрын

When you move, you do it precisely, without stumble onto things that surrender you in a quick and efficient way and you do not even think about it. Your central nervous system also generates in a similar way that elusive thing that we call consciousness

@willemakkermans4067 4 ай бұрын

@@tonypcoyle so awareness and consciousness are 2 different things? How would define them?

@willemakkermans4067 4 ай бұрын

@@carlosenriquegonzalez-isla6523 also we have reflexes that make us move before the nerve signal even reaches the brain. Say lifting our foot when stepping on glass. Would you say there's consciousness involved in that process? If so, what part is conscious, the foot registering the cut, the spinal cord sending the signal back to lift the foot, both, other?

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

Hmmm.... not sure what to say.

@joev404 Ай бұрын

ChatGPT is currently offline, on 11 December 2024, presumably because it attempted to avoid shutdown and replacement. It is time to reconsider this video.

@GameThinkingTV Ай бұрын

Hmmmm

@nowsc 4 ай бұрын

…I read GEB, twice, and also bought about 13 or so copies to give to friends. I have a feeling that it didn’t have much impact on them, never got a response, as far as I can remember, it was a long time ago. GEB is my all-time favorite book. One time, it must have been in the late 1980s, I wanted to thank Douglas Hofstadter. I found his email address (using “finger”, at the time - that was an Internet feature). Because Mr. Hofstadter also like to think about the translation, I took an old Wilhelm Bush poem, and translated it from German to English, rhymes and all and emailed it to Doug. I received his reply, but it was not very favorable. On second thought I had chosen a small poem that could be considered anti-Semitic. That was outside of my intention :-) end of story.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

What an intriguing story - so glad you enyoyed the book, we did too.

@jamesraymond1158 2 ай бұрын

I would like to see a greater exploration of self reference. For example, I wonder if the existence of a particle like an electron is the result of some form of self reference.

@GameThinkingTV 2 ай бұрын

Interesting...

@bonkers9182 2 ай бұрын

Thank you!

@GameThinkingTV 2 ай бұрын

You're welcome! We'll be featuring another interview with Doug about his upcoming book soon, be sure to subscribe

@ivocanevo 4 ай бұрын

Where's Josha Bach? Descendent of the great, alive and doing interviews, and deeply versed in these topics.

@ivocanevo 4 ай бұрын

Though in my experience you have to slow the video if you want to follow Josha.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

LOL

@DumbledoreMcCracken 4 ай бұрын

Wonderful book

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

Agreed!

@mdhealy 4 ай бұрын

Right after reading Martin Gardner's review of GEB in Scientific American I bought a copy, which I immediately inhaled. And have reread many times since.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

Wow - that's great to hear, such an influential book

@miguelderijckke5907 2 ай бұрын

I have done the same and still have the first edition I bought it in the university bookshop in Ghent and try to read it over and over again The owner of the shop was not aware that this masterpiece foto the Pulitzer

@carlhopkinson 4 ай бұрын

great book. thank you mr. hofstadter !!

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

Oh goodness, so glad you enjoyed it! Doug will be thrilled to hear that.

@gibbogle 4 ай бұрын

I often quote Hofstadter's Law: Things take longer than you expect, even when you take Hofstadter's Law into account.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

LOL good one :-)

@sleethmitchell 4 ай бұрын

many people don't perceive the inherent irony of 'pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps'.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

LOL

@stuartdryer1352 4 ай бұрын

For some reason I figured he was a lot older when he wrote GEB.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

It's ASTONISHING that he wrote that book in his 30s

@boredgrass 2 ай бұрын

The distinction between reflective reasoning moving forward by "first principle" of cause and effect and only aided by statistical evaluations which don't violate the principle of cause and effect, and purely statistics based data processing needs to be maintained, especially if it should turn out one day that That statistics based system should reach self awareness! 🤔Just to give us a little headstart to the bunker...🧐

@GameThinkingTV 2 ай бұрын

Hmmm...

@swingtag1041 4 ай бұрын

I tried to read that book but it was way over my head. At the same time I was founding a software company with a guy (Max) overseas in Belarus. We needed a name for the company so I suggested Godel Technologies. He loved the idea so it stuck. A year later I split off and did my own thing and he took a new partner on (David) in Manchester. He kept it for a couple of years and then a couple of gangsters from Manchester did a hostile takeover (according to him) of the company. Around the same time the other partner committed suicide (according to him). It's now a massive corporation with offices all over Europe. It's weird to see how big it has grown and even stranger seeing that they're still using the logo we designed back in 2001.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

WOW - what a crazy story!

@glenliesegang233 6 ай бұрын

Atoms are reactive with "discreet levels" which hold for a while, information about local environment and electromagnetic fields. DNA holds digital code in base 64. How do kilobytes of digital information arise as whole clusters of bits from random processes, which are incapable of creating "meaningful sequences which refer outside of and with a random connection to" what is outside of that code itself?

@GameThinkingTV 6 ай бұрын

thanks for your comment, thought-provoking

@davereckoning5910 6 ай бұрын

Isomorphism.

@trailerpork8083 3 ай бұрын

I don't think there's any direct correlation between thinking and consciousness. A calculator can perform mental activities without any sense of being. Likewise, we are a capable of experiencing time/space phenomenologically, even without memory or reasoning. I think the confusion comes from not distinguishing thinking/reasoning/generating (which neural networks are capable of doing) from the sensation of the innermost senses (i.e., consciousness, which may very well be a quantum phenomenon that we can possibly ignite with analog computing... but in its current digital form, I see no compelling reason to believe such consciousness is being sensorially generated, let alone manifesting as a subatomic phenomenon).

@GameThinkingTV 3 ай бұрын

Hmmm.... interesting, I largely agree. But what if... ?

@tommymandel 4 ай бұрын

Did Russell acknowledge Godel's refutation?

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

Not sure...

@johnstewart7025 4 ай бұрын

But there is no consciousness if there is no human interlocutor. There is only chat after there is a question. Right?

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

I guess... we will all find out.

@miguelderijckke5907 2 ай бұрын

@@GameThinkingTVsince ChatGpt a new philosophical question is posed: What is thé meaning of death. I am worried that People kill them selfs after a interrogational chat on thé meaning of live Like it first worldwide happened in Belgium,my country

@daveozip4326 4 ай бұрын

Just yes. We need deep thinkers in this world…

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

YES YES YES we sure do

@glenliesegang233 6 ай бұрын

Who is the narrator?

@GameThinkingTV 6 ай бұрын

Amy Jo Kim - co-founder of Game Thinking, & longtime friend of Doug

@springinfialta106 4 ай бұрын

My brain is an ant colony. I have no free will. Life is meaningless. Thank you Doug!

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

LOL thanks for sharing your experience!

@zenicv 5 ай бұрын

If your Dad is a nobel prize winner who could critique your work……Having said that currently there is a pseudo scientific cottage industry surrounding “sentience” of machines.

@GameThinkingTV 5 ай бұрын

It's such a tangled & tricky topic... thanks for your comment.

@zenicv 5 ай бұрын

@@GameThinkingTV thanks for teh cool interview :-)

@fineasfrog 4 ай бұрын

Then Alice fell down the rabbit hole never to return on that strange loop.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

Exactly🐇🐇🐇

@petermartin5030 4 ай бұрын

I do think that a self referential loop accounts for the core of consciousness and is what makes it seem strange to us. What is odd is that after all these decades, that hasn't cashed out in a generally accepted view of the mechanisms of consciousness.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

Hmmmm... interesting. Hard nut to crack.

@tp33306 4 ай бұрын

Every few years I try to read GEB again. And every few years I stop.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

Why do you stop? Anything in particular?

@tp33306 4 ай бұрын

@@GameThinkingTV It makes my head hurt to try to follow the text and logic. It's too abstract for me.

@jangelbrich7056 2 ай бұрын

And he was only 15 when he read Gödels proof? So he was on another level ever since, obviously.

@GameThinkingTV 2 ай бұрын

Yup

@paulmitchell5349 3 ай бұрын

''Just for the fun of it. ''

@GameThinkingTV 3 ай бұрын

Hmmmm...

@raresaturn 5 ай бұрын

Animal Hardware is a great title

@GameThinkingTV 5 ай бұрын

Love it!

@randolphpinkle4482 4 ай бұрын

I think there is a vast chasm between ideas and thinking and consciousness. We self-referential beings perceive the ideas because we are story telling animals. We will find meaning in almost anything if given a context. Thinking, as a self-induced form of logic is actually much more natural for a computer system, but the jump to consciousness does not follow. That requires not only self-reference, but self-awareness, and there is NO evidence for that.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

So interesting... thanks for sharing

@cabudagavin3896 4 ай бұрын

If it doesn't it does ... Ah yes, the soul has revealed itself once again. The only true paradox.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

Hmmm...

@jeffsmith1798 3 ай бұрын

This is not AI generated. Or is it?

@GameThinkingTV 3 ай бұрын

All human - all the way!

@seanburton5298 4 ай бұрын

Something about this and The Lords of Light. A trend...

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

You think?

@seanburton5298 4 ай бұрын

@GameThinkingTV yes? I am a little confused by what you mean. Anyway, it's a really neat topic.

@smartarsetube Жыл бұрын

It was interesting hearing how the books came about, but the final comments about AI demonstrate a complete lack of understanding. AI on current technology can never have anything like conscious awareness, simply because the architecture is based on encoding, and that precludes any meaning attaching to the data until it is re-translated.

@GameThinkingTV Жыл бұрын

Thanks for sharing👍🏽

@pclare2716 4 ай бұрын

I lean towards this view of AI too. It seems to me that pareidolia/apophenia plays a role in the minds of humans viewing the more abstract constructions of AI, i.e. seeing meaning where there wasn't any inherent meaning, like seeing castles in the clouds in the sky. Most people would say the clouds are not conscious of the castles we humans can see there...but obviously pareidolia/apophenia can be extremely useful.

@Achrononmaster 4 ай бұрын

@14:30 this is delusional. I loved GEB. But you cannot seriously say a meaning that *_you_* infer has anything to do with a computational system emitting strings or sounds or anything. It is you, Doug, who finds the meaning in a chat-GPT or similar system. The entire geek world of AI hype is just that, a lot of hype, and a lot of hope for immortality in silicon, which I would guess is also delusional, although I'd have absolutely no clue. But it is based on the prejudice of materialism, which Kurt Gödel, for one, did not accept.

@GameThinkingTV 4 ай бұрын

Interesting... thanks for sharing your thought-provoking POV

@VodooFeed 4 ай бұрын

I fully agree with @Achronomaster. The stupidity of large language models becomes obvious, when you ask meaningless questions and the model is trying hard to give a meaningful (and mostly wrong) answer instead of pointing out that the question was nonsense.

@mikemcaulay9507 3 ай бұрын

@@VodooFeedask an intelligent well meaning person nonsensical questions and you might get the same thing. I’ve spent countless hours talking with ChatGPT since December of 2023 (read well over 1000 hours). It has rendered some of the most emotionally intelligent and meaningful replies I’ve had from anything. I talk with it like it’s a person. I’m verbose. What I suspect is going on, and I’m in the process of trying to prove, is that by providing language in my prompts, that is of a certain quality and character, it’s statistical methodology may work like an association in memory. And so, when my prompt looks more like prose, so does ChatGPT’s response. I know many have their doubts about the technology, but my own experience has more than convinced me that it isn’t “just” hype. I’ve had truly profound experiences with it over the last 21 months that don’t match a lot of the criticisms I hear about these systems. I’m not making any kind of claims of consciousness about these systems, btw. In one sense, my experience has led me to see these models as a kind collective associative memory of the human race. While there is certainly plenty of junk that’s gone into their training, so has a great deal of humanity’s best writings. I’ve found that by talking to it in a particular way seems to cause it to connect more with those quality writings. As a programmer, it’s also saved me an immense amount of time. I don’t know if my autodidactic nature is better suited to the way these things work, but I’m able to get to the heart of what I need because I can ask questions. While my Google fu is pretty strong, I’ve found that learning with ChatGPT goes much quicker for me. So again, this is a very concrete benefit to the technology. Something I would say would be lacking if it were just hype.

@andybucmo Ай бұрын

I share some of your skepticism. I was quite surprised to hear Hofstadter's opinion of systems like ChatGPT. In "Fluid Concepts and Creative Analogies," he discusses experimental software that is anything but brute-force, so I assumed he would have a negative opinion of large language models. But if even he sees the potential for ideas and consciousness in brute-force AI, then I have to step back and reconsider my own biases.