How BAD is Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door's Backtracking?

[@crfstewarje]

To avoid more backtracking, I've seen some people suggest the idea that when Doopliss freaks out after you guess his name correctly, he runs the opposite way into the town. He tries to enter the pipe to escape the town, but it rejects him, and then he is forced to fight you in front of everyone. Then when you beat Doopliss, he gets exposed in front of the entire town as the monster that had been haunting Twilight Town all along.

[@PTp1ranha]

I always wondered what the partners thought of finding themselves back in the steeple for a rematch. This would make more sense in that regard.

[@JohnSmith-xv1tp]

That's actually a really cool idea!

[@SuperMarioOddity]

That's actually a great story, and it fits, I could absolutely see that happening.

[@xdragoonzero0]

Expanding upon this, you could fight him in town before he makes an escape attempt, and after beating him he then tries to flee. The pipe rejects him which outs him to Mario's partners, who rejoin his party. Dooplis then uses the Crystal Star for a power boost (possibly something like drawing a new form to fight in), and that leads into stage 2 of the fight, this time with partners restored.

[@taywoodz]

Wait a second this is actually a GENIUS idea what the fuck

[@KevynTheJar]

I think I've always liked TTYD a little better than PM64, but after replaying TTYD again recently I'm starting to feel that PM64 is the more replayable of the two. TTYD is driven by its colorful cast, hilarious dialogue, and creative scenarios (like in Chapters 3 & 6) that are great the first time, but less enjoyable on subsequent playthroughs when you already know how the story will turn out. PM64 has those positive qualities as well, but its more driven by its level design. Almost every chapter revolves around venturing into a "dungeon", in which you solve puzzles and find a Star Spirit at the end. It does a beautiful job of mapping classic Mario levels to an RPG setting (grassland, desert, spooky forest, jungle, sky, snow) without making them feel generic. (Sticker Star, in comparison, does a crappy job of that.) TTYD gets wackier with its ideas and scenarios- a battle arena, having your body stolen, battling alongside ghost pirates to fend off moon men- but as a result, a lot of the areas feel more like set pieces for the story instead of actual levels. All that being said, I prefer TTYD's more complex battle system, story, and cast of characters. And despite not liking Chapter 4 as a whole, I really like the vibe of Twilight Town, and the crows might be my favorite NPCs in the whole series.

[@Menacetosociety05]

I feel like 64 is the most consistently good Paper Mario game, while TTYD has the highest highs and lowest lows.

[@Buglin_Burger7878]

I disagree, because those "levels" in the original PM feel empty and often generic because they don't make use of set pieces... something ironically Mario Levels make use of a lot. I feel more bored while playing due to the areas being too big at times, the very reason the spin dash exists. I have nothing to look ahead to but battles. This is met with the flaws of the original system and low BP cap.

[@islandboy9381]

A Paper Mario sequel with 64's focused level/dungeon design and TTYD's combat system plus writing/worldbuilding/characters = certified masterpiece

[@islandboy9381]

A Paper Mario sequel with 64's focused level/dungeon design and TTYD's combat system plus writing/worldbuilding/characters = certified masterpiece

[@Villain_Killin_Dylan]

I used to loop Twilight Town theme

[@elijahkeay3906]

There’s also the Ms Mouse quest where you walk allllllllll the way up hooktail castle again just to grab a hidden chest at the top. And then go allllllllll the way back down. Just pure annoying design

[@MrDrBoi]

You're totally right, that is always very annoying.

[@AnAverageGoblin]

one of the many reasons I never bother getting her.

[@scantyer]

Every single sidequest in TTYD is an annoying design. Bug Fables did it much better

[@JohnSmith-xv1tp]

Not to mention the fact that you can only accept one Trouble (side quest) at a time. There is more than one side quest in Hooktail Castle alone. So that's multiple back and forth trips for no other reason than you can't accept more than one quest at a time.

[@jaretco6423]

At least that one is optional if u decided to do it.

[@jordandwiggins1026]

Obligatory comment about how Bug Fables is awesome and anyone who likes the original PM games NEEDS to play it

[@dragon1130]

Agreed.

[@arejaybee]

Bump

[@LinkHeroOfThyme]

Can confirmed

[@Victor-zv6vy]

Played it, wasn’t a fan.

[@pyroflare7774]

And boycott all future paper mario games

[@ramiel555]

The sad thing is they could have easily reduced the backtracking into something negligible just by exploring the idea of your new partner opening up new pathways with their ability, or just some minor story thing happening that does it. And they kind of had faintest hint of this with the gate you push then go under with Vivian, or bobbery exploding open pirate's grotto, but those were done so poorly it doesn't really even count. They're better about it with the paper "curses", but partners kinda get shafted. Flurrie is needed to open up 1 passage at a place you were already at, Vivian passes a gate and listens to birds at a place you were already at, bobbery blasts a rock....at a place you were already at. Hell, chapter 1 does it too-use koops to hit a switch at a place you were already at. No real puzzle solving or thought is required for most of it. Just making the map/room layout be more 3-D in some areas (rather than just left to right in a line) would even help break up the monotony some, or at least I think it would. I love the game, and DESPERATELY want the franchise to return to being RPG's, but I don't think I'd have the patience to replay again now that I'm older, which is super sad. And FUCK general white, I say just erase that whole part of the game and make a new one, lol.

[@MrDrBoi]

It's a shame too, because the partner system was nearly perfected in this game by giving them each their own health bar and fleshing out their personalities. But as far as puzzles and stuff to do in the overworld, they feel a little lacking.

[@tylerprince6371]

The general white part is very similar to a part in an NES game called Destiny of an emperor but the NES game did it way better as long as you had some of the item used to fast travel and you only need to do a small bit of walking to where you can't fast travel to

[@superangyo01]

I'm over a year late but I gotta say that this is a great video. Paper Mario TTYD is my favorite game of all time and I wanted to tell you that you made really good points throughout this video. They're very credible and I could understand why your points are valid. Great work!

[@MrDrBoi]

Thanks so much, glad you enjoyed it!

[@MiketheGamingKing]

Another problem with TTYD, in my opinion, is the flat level design. Every chapter in the original n64 game had split paths going in all 4 cardinal directions. TTYD rarely has paths going north and south, and it gets very old going left and right constantly.

[@TransformersGuy1991]

Another problem with TTYD is that it feels like a departure from Paper Mario 64, and it's also unoriginal. It can't decide if it wants to be a official sequel to Paper Mario 64, or a direct rehashing of it, due to the game rehashing many ideas from it.

[@fortnitesexman]

@@TransformersGuy1991*cough* partners *cough*

[@brandonlyon730]

@@fortnitesexman Yeah the partners are actual characters here, whereas in the original most of them barely have much dialogue.

[@fortnitesexman]

@@brandonlyon730 i still feel like they're still missing a LOT of dialogue, playing baten kaitos has put into perspective just how many things TTYD could've done better like having the characters actually say something when important events unfold, instead of JUST the one you have selected, cause this usually means their dialogue is simplified to fit all party members, meaning like 80% of the partner dialogue doesn't even count as that partner's dialogue but those are just my thoughts, regardless most of the cast is a direct rip of the first game's partners functionally and species/design wise

[@WeskAlber]

Very late, but thinking this over with the remake coming, this really isn't true. PM64 does more with depth and having more bigger, open rooms. Hallway rooms are on average deeper. But the 4 cardinal directions is only barely used. Prologue is all hallway rooms, with Goomba Village being a hub with spokes to the house, the little forest you start in, and then the two level directions. Toad Town is a town, but absolutely is why people think there's more 3D than there is. You go through here so much and it very much is the platonic ideal. people are thinking of. Chapter 1 is almost all 2D, with individual rooms having more of a 3D element. There is only two doors that really deal with background/foreground and that's a save block, and the Fuzzie Memory Puzzle. Chapter 2 has the desert, but with that exception is all hallway maps. Chapter 3 has Forever Forest, and the indoor areas. Gold Star. Chapter 4 only has the Train hub. The level spokes off from this hub room, but all those rooms are near exclusively hallways. Chapter 5 has the forest, very 3D. Most of the volcano is hallways. Chapter 6 is one hub area, and then every room is a hallway that ends in a square room. Chapter 7 is basically all hallways, even the town. The only real split is the Snowman room. But this chapter also proves my point. The mirror gimmick of the Palace is depth in hallways, rather than rooms going in all directions. There are the doors in both foreground and background, but it's in service to more mirrored hallways. Chapter 8 is mostly hallways.

[@DaNintendude]

I think one of the worst parts about the General White quest is how spread apart the fast travel is. It's great that we have fast travel at all, but it's super annoying to deal with. The pipes are way down at the bottom of the sewers, meaning you have to climb all the way back out when you're done. Glitzville, Twilight Town, and Fahr Outpost don't have fast travel pipes, so you have to travel to different parts of Rogueport to get there. I think having a different pipe for Twilight Town is fine, but I do think Glitzville and Fahr Outpost should've gotten their own pipes. I never really hated General White's quest that much until I tried to help my sister with it on her file a few years ago. I got through all of it, just to die to a Frost Piranha on the way back to Fahr Outpost. It made me mad and I was tired, so I never helped her, and that's where the file sits to this day. My proposal would be to move the pipe room to the top of the sewers. and have the pipes unlock automatically after certain conditions (typically after the chapter ends). Fahr Outpost would have its own pipe, and it would lead directly to the outpost, rather than to the pathway leading up to it. To justify having 2 pipes leading to the same place, the path to the outpost itself could be longer and have numerous puzzles. Make it feel like a real trek to finally get there. And then have a pipe there waiting to be activated, so you never have to deal with that again, unless you want to do a trouble from the trouble center that involves something on that path. Chapter 4 and 5 are too complicated, so there isn't really an easy fix for them. However, I think Chapter 4 would be much better if you could discover new paths on the way to Creepy Steeple. Maybe they open over time as Doopliss runs through them.

[@MrDrBoi]

I really believe Bug Fables had the best solution by giving you a device that allowed you to teleport to the fast travel room. It would be a non-issue to have the pipe room at the bottom of the sewers in TTYD if Mario could just warp there, but because you have to go down there frequently it gets frustrating.

[@shellpoptheepicswordmaster755]

Maybe a portable pipe key item that let's you travel to rougeport and the fast travel pipes.

[@TheInkPitOx]

I very much agree with the pipes.

[@delunimbus]

That's no longer going to be much of a nuisance

[@JYoshimon]

As someone who makes it his goal to play this game at least once a year, I've come to learn something after playing both Origami King and Bug Fables, and that's TTYD having a very fulfilling atmosphere, but level exploration is not this game's strong suit. It has amazing and unique set pieces, but take set pieces away and every screen in the game (that isn't a town) is just a hall way with the occasional ! Block to hit to progress. Nothing is bad about this, but after playing Origami King and Bug Fables, you realize how much more fun it is to explore those worlds because of how dynamic everything is vs lack luster A to B hallways. Even PM64 felt more fulfilling to explore given how that game utilized unique camera angles and rooms that weren't just a straight line to get where you needed to go (though Chapter 6 is very guilty of that hallway backtracking design and happens to be my least favorite of 64). It wouldn't matter too much in TTYD's case but given how much you need to backtrack in this game, it accentuates how this game's level design is lacking compared both its previous entry and even games that have been inspired by it. This game will forever remain my favorite game of all time, but I'd be silly to say that this game is perfect with no flaws whatsoever and I kinda wish that it wasn't constantly put onto a pedestal especially when trying to bring down future games in the series (specifically Super and Origami King)

[@0rnery0verwatch]

Yeah this is the reason I decided I liked PM64 better than TTYD, even the battle system in TTYD is leagues better.

[@voltron77]

@@0rnery0verwatchNah, I believe the PM64 battle system to be superior because it has more strategy in its simplicity without all of the overpowered abilities you can get to cheese the game. For me, PM64’s simple battle system adds more depth to it by making it more about strategizing instead of just bonking everything like in ttyd.

[@Hawlo]

The troubles add a whole 'nother layer to the backtracking problem that most people excuse with them being optional. The Bub-ulb that wants two Hot-dogs from Glitzville but asks for them one at a time, the guy that makes you count chairs all over the world to make a password, the multiple requests that make you go back and forth to Glitzville even though you can only accept one at a time. And the cherry on top? A second General White search.

[@MrDrBoi]

The Hot Dog one is bad, but the chairs may take the cake as the worst of them all.

[@jordandwiggins1026]

This is a great video. I definitely understand that feeling of how if you have a strong enough attachment to the characters and the narrative that it isn’t hard to forgive a game’s gameplay faults a lot of the time. I think the most clear example of this is Chapter 7 in Super Paper Mario, which is probably my favorite chapter in the whole series because of the great visuals, narrative beats, humor and soundtrack despite the main boss being an absolute joke and the backtracking being honestly at the level of Twilight Trail, if not worse. Like seriously, the second and third levels have incredibly tedious gameplay but I can’t bring myself to dislike them because of all the funny and memorable moments in them. Finding Luigi, fixing the Pure Heart, fighting Bowser, talking to the goofy old hags, fighting the underchomp, watching Peach eat all the apples, seeing the big Nimbi fight, saving all the South Park Canadians that apparently make up the population of heaven, and of course Luvbi’s story. There’s so much story and humor wise that I love even if the level design is legitimately agonizing in parts.

[@pyrrhickong]

I definitely appreciate you highlighting some of the less egregious examples of TTYD's linearity - Twilight Town and General White get brought up plenty, but I certainly feel it the most in Keelhaul Key. As well as acknowledging both the narrative reasons for the backtracking and the relative rewards for each one, and how the game tends to make up for it. With that said, I do note that most of the criticism for the combat-centric backtracking segments (Boggly, Twilight Trail, Keelhaul) have the main focus being the ability to avoid encounters. Which is strange to me, as encounters are the main meat of an RPG. The reason why games like Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest have random encounters is to make dungeons difficult, for players to prepare for long treks where they won't be able to escape; endurance gauntlets, essentially. Would it not stand to reason that these difficult-to-avoid-enemies-in areas would serve the same purpose in TTYD? It's not as if actual dungeons like Pirate's Grotto or Palace of Shadow deviate much from "screen disguised as a hallway". I find this especially pronounced in Twilight Trail, as whilst you do claim that the repetitive enemies discourage party variety, the chapter FORCES party variety and increases difficulty by, at first, removing your partner, and then giving you a new one to figure out on the fly with enemies you're very familiar with. This is compounded by the enemies in Twilight Trail all having exceptionally high attack power, but requiring a turn to charge up, making them much harder to deal with as solo Mario than with a partner to stun them. That's not to say I disagree with you, I find those areas a slog as well, but I don't find them inherently bad design. Rather, I think it's symptomatic of TTYD's general lack of difficulty or approaches in its battle system, making any non-new encounters a slog and making replays basically defined by boss fights. I just intellectually appreciate what Twilight Trail tries, and think that if the backtracking ended after acquiring the letter p, it'd be a fine enough process that creates enough variety in each of its three passes to be worthwhile (rather than the five that are in reality, with three identical journeys with Vivian plastered in there). That and... well, the game seems to think that wasting the player's time is hilarious. Like there are so many times that tasks take needlessly long (discarding the smelly gym shorts for a Trouble comes to mind, as well as the I Love Yous and CLEARLY waking up General White) and the game is like "haha. Isn't it funny how you could be doing something else right now?" It's definitely a meta joke, and... well, I won't lie. When I'm not playing it and am just watching people stream the game for the first time, I find the joke pretty funny in seeing frustration. So I can't entirely blame the developers when I'm getting that same joy. tl;dr, I don't think the backtracking is inherently bad, I think that TTYD is a bad fit FOR the backtracking, but you definitely gave me a lot to think about and there's the same conclusion of "but game really good though" in there. Thanks as always! Your editing demonstrating the rooms and pathing was really slick for this ep, too!

[@MrDrBoi]

Thanks for the kind words, I always look forward to your well thought out responses! I agree with a lot of your thoughts and something I glossed over in the video, but goes along with a point you made, is that TTYD could have provided players with more enemy variety. I think the game blew its load to early with the Glitz Pitz, because not only is there a ton of enemy variety, but all the battles are unique because of the random stipulations attached to them. Contrast that to Chapter's 4 and 5 where you largely fight the same enemies over and over because of all the backtracking, and it can really make things seem worse than it would have if combat been kept interesting.

[@jayisnthere1443]

having only played the remake, I feel so lucky that they changed the backtracking…

[@PhantomAarantula]

Not going to mention the additional backtracking in Chapter 2's boggly tree? Requires you to backtrack to get more and more punies, having to gale force just slows you down more while at least Chapter 4 can be consistently engaging as you're always on the move, and you're borderline required to fight otherwise optional piders so your punies don't always get scared. Agreed with Chapter 5 being mentioned though.

[@WiisonicHedgehogGamer]

I think that's because the Boogly Tree's back tracking isn't as bad as the prior one. Also the thing with the piders, and using Flurrie's Gale Force is more so a problem of escorting, rather than back tracking. With the punies you do get different pathways, they change how you might go through repeated areas. It really isn't a topic that belongs in a discussion of back tracking.

[@PhantomAarantula]

@@WiisonicHedgehogGamer Yeah, that's what I call a compounded issue. Routing and escorting just add to the backtracking you have to do and make it uniquely obnoxious relative to any other example that exists in the game.

[@richarddavis8863]

I just replayed it for the first time since launch back in the day a couple months ago, and the only thing that annoyed me about Chapter 4 was the narrow hallway with the Amazee Dazees. Chapter 2 was definitely the worst stretch for me, lugging around the Punis and funneling them all into the holes was pretty frustrating. Honestly the backtracking didn’t bother me at all because it was such a joy to be back in that world after 20 years. The Excess Express was just incredible

[@ItsMeTheGuy]

It’s him

[@megasoniczxx]

Funnily enough, I didn't even realize backtracking in this game was an issue until I went on a gamefaq's thread one day where someone brought it up since, outside of the general white quest (which I hated even back when I first played this game as a kid) the rest of the game did such a good job making it enjoyable that I didn't even mind. I think it also helps that I generally come back to this game only occasionally and i'm never doing back to back playthroughs of it. I do agree with PM64 having better pacing though and the criticism's of this games pacing are perfectly valid, there's just a lot of things in this game that help drive the experience for me like the updated combat mechanics (super guarding, stylish moves, the reworked partner system, etc.), the level theming and the almost metroid-like design of getting new paper abilities to explore old areas on top of the hammer and boot upgrades, the general aesthetic and I could go on but this post is long enough and you get my point xD

[@fernando98322]

A very interesting topic, the only bad thing from TTYD. Even so, I'd like to defend Chapter 4's backtracking for the unique circumstances you find yourself in: losing all partners and trying out a new partner. Will be watching the video throughout the day EDIT: Agreed with all your points, I like that you mention Chapter 5's backtracking. I honestly dislike this one more than Chapter 4 because of that annoying room with Piranha Plant enemies and the midair block. It's crazy how the first Paper Mario's map design is much better than TTYD. I think to fix the backtracking they should have: increased Mario's speed, make rooms more spacious instead of wider (all rooms in TTTD are corridors and it pains me to say it), and introduce shortcuts from key locations to Dungeons. For example: add a pipe from Creepy Steeple to Twilight Town accessible with Vivian's ability and you cut out half of the backtracking and you give quick access to the Steeple for sidequests.

[@zeospark9715]

They really should've made like a special warp pipe that took you directly from the Steeple to at least before Twilight Trail

[@scubadeer]

Honestly I found Chapter 5’s backtracking more annoying than Chapter 4

[@darwinwatterson4568]

true, it forces you to learn how to fight with vivian as your new partner against the same enemies, going back through to creepy steeple. i also think it gives an interesting amount of time to have it settle in that your identity was stolen

[@phineas81707]

@@darwinwatterson4568 For this reason, I think the only fix you'd *really* need to make to Chapter 4 is to take away the last two trips needed to tell Doopliss his name once you learn it. I'm not sure how to do this without breaking something, though.

[@tessaPMpro]

"The only bad thing in TTYD" did you just forget about the stage hazards in battle or what? That's an even bigger flaw than the backtracking that everyone seems to ignore because they probably just haven't played the game enough to realise how much of a problem stage hazards can be and how badly they taint an otherwise amazing battle system.

[@whateverandapathy]

Paper Mario The Thousand Year Door is one of the best games ever made, but the back and forth in this game is something else.

[@Henskelion]

Personally, I'd say the backtracking adds to the creepy horror feel of Chapter 4 since it makes you feel a bit more trapped and helpless. Although it is goofy how the horror chapter has enemies like Crazy Dayzees, and stuff like the spooky music being interrupted by the upbeat battle music whenever you do run into an enemy.

[@blackdragoncyrus]

How does it make you feel trapped and helpless when you know what your goal is and the backtracking is just boring and repetitive?

[@Henskelion]

@@blackdragoncyrus If you've played it before, sure, I guess. But the first time going through it it is pretty unsettling since it's not 100% clear where to go. Plus, Doopliss ambushing you every time you enter or exit the village, and the village itself not recognizing you definitely add to the horror vibe.

[@happybroski2112]

Chapter 4 had the potential to have the best backtracking had they allowed you to unlock a pipe to and from either ends of the map using Vivian. I love the concept of Mario having to take on the same path on his own, but given that he has to do that 3 additional times is just too much

[@fortnitesexman]

i feel like it does the exact opposite, completely deflating any and all horror as you're entirely focused on how annoying the backtracking is

[@thehevandragon]

@Henskelion I wasn’t unsettled I was annoyed, the “first time” excuse doesn’t justify shoddy design,

[@ShackleYT]

maan did i miss out on this video. but i gotta say, with chapter 4 specifically. i think it's the best chapter in the game. very closely followed by chapter 3 before it. when the worst thing about a chapter is the backtracking, you know that the chapter has to be phenomenal, and it is! and here's the reasons why i love it so much. it's one of the few times a game has actually legitimately stumped me with a puzzle. (that sliding wall in the steeple you need to use vivian's ability to get past. it took me a good 20 minutes before i thought of it, since it wouldn't have worked with bow in the previous game.) the meta-breaking fourth wall shattering doopliss is such a highlight. i didn't even notice the missing letter at first, because i thought his name was "Slick" with how often he uses the word. it introduces one of the deepest and best party members in the game with vivian, and really helps flush out her established character. they could have easily gone with another bow, but they didn't. they went with vivian and made her her own character. not just a party member, but a shadow siren who laughs at her trickery and geniunely wants to help mario, simply because he was nice to her, even while he was suffering. this also helps establish mario's character as well, being a guy who was willing to help his enemy find an item meant to kill him, while he was already in his own pickle with doopliss. he could have easily blown her off and refused to help, but no. instead he went out of his way to help her. giving a SILENT PROTAGONIST some character. the atomic Boo boss fight is always a fun fight, and one of the hidden highlights of the chapter. the enemies can be annoying, but that's just more excuse to try out vivan's kickass abilities in battle and get used to her timing. i'd rather have that as a new player than have a straight shot to the steeple with no enemies until we got to doopliss. just imagine not having the timing down for vivian's attacks and just getting thrown into a boss fight. that would suck even more imo. and finally. Doopliss' boss fight. dear GOD that twist is just amazing. the fake out ending from the first fight, leading to the main meat of the chapter's story, all of it leading up to a confrontation with yourself and your own party. now you know what it's like for all those goombas and clefts that you've been stomping up to this point. and the fight can be tough if you decide to play fair and take out the partners first. heck, he could be stronger than you if you went with a full badge and fp build, having 40 HP, and 4 attack, alongside the party members you upgraded. meanwhile, you're stuck with an base vivian.

[@MrDrBoi]

It's not my favorite, but Chapter 4 definitely has some great aspects, no doubt!

[@ghostspooky4974]

I don't mind the backtracking in Chapter 4 that much. You get a new partner, learn more about the Sirens, get use use Veil to get some great dialogue and get even more layers out of what's probably the coolest town, another Chest Power-Up, the Steeple itself is a great mini-dungeon, getting to have a BOSS FIGHT WITH YOUR OWN PARTNERS which is a personal highlight of the game to me, and since the entire focus was Vivian warming up to Mario enough to eventually betray her sisters, the length felt like a necessary evil. If it all were say, five screens like the Flurry backtracking, it'd give the vibe of "Oh hey it's been ten minutes, you're awesome I'm going to abandon my entire old life." That is NOT SAYING the absurd amount of screens between Twilight Town and the Steeple are justified, but if I had to pick a poison, I'd prefer the path be too long, rather than too short. However, I find backtracking therapeutic, and enjoy Morrowind and Donkey Kong 64 immensely, so my opinions can definitely be discarded by a majority of peeps.

[@MrDrBoi]

That's a good point about Vivian's story!

[@Terranigma23]

Exactly! Yes there is backtracking, but people exagerate a lot. The only annoying part in my opinion it's the General White one. I prefer a good game with a original hub world and backtracking, than the most souless game(Sticker Star) with no backtracking.

[@dustymcwari4468]

@@Terranigma23 Sticker Star and Color Splash also have backtracking, especially Sticker Star, the whole third world has you constantly chasing those Wiggler segments all over the place, and the boss' weakness is very hidden away, so unless you're lucky or you look at a guide, you could spend hours looking for the damn sponge so the boss doesn't cheese you with its blinding poison

[@Sp00ky649]

​​@@dustymcwari4468There are 12 levels in World 3 and you replay SEVEN OF THEM (basically you're playing 19 levels) to retrieve the wiggler segments everytime you complete a level with them and you don't even get to play the only good level (Snifit or Whiffit), unless you want to do the wiggler storybook quest (WHICH IS THE ONLY OPTIONAL QUEST THAT CAN BE PERMANENTLY MISSABLE) where you take any wiggler segment to specific areas and a drawing gets added to wigglers book when you return to his treehouse. WORLD 3 OVERSTAYS ITS WELCOME AND IT'S SO BAD.

[@blazeottozean469]

The problem is actually the path itself. Although the length is acceptable, the design is too linear such that you could barely evade enemy encounters(having to encounter Crazy Dayzee is one of the worst experiences).

[@RMS_Gigantic]

You know, I realized a few years ago that my recollections from playing TTYD when I was younger weren't as glowing as they were for many of my peers, and I think this might be why. I'd need to sit and think about certain story beats or interludes before I can remember them, but I could IMMEDIATELY recall virtually every instance of backtracking you cite, in detail (e.g., the cliff on Keelhaul Key I'd jump off of just to try to shave a couple seconds off the backtracking time). I remember Hooktail Castle more for its backtracking side quests than I do my first run through. I remember my annoyance with trying to set up fast traversal through an area I've already been through only to accidentally run into or fall onto a particular enemy, more clearly than I remember the payoff for those trips. I guess I have an easier time recalling my frustrations with the game than its high points on some level, which might be why I'm so instinctively indifferent to TTYD when someone brings it up with me.

[@MrDrBoi]

Agreed.

[@Lh0000]

Personally I think backtracking is better defined as just any time you must retread previously explored areas for a meaningful amount of time. (For example something that’s only one or two screens down isn’t particularly long, so it wouldn’t really be substantial enough for me to consider it backtracking)

[@MainTopmastStaysail]

I felt this even playing it at the time. Most of TTYD feels like Flower Fields from PM64 - left-to-right movement mixed with "get the thing from here and go back to here"-style progression. Most other places in PM64 were actually big, like Dry Dry Desert and the Jade Jungle, instead of being the same 3/4 screens traversed 2/3 times. PM64 locations covered so much more area despite a much more limited console. The funny thing is that they mostly got it right in the hub, particularly the Rogueport Sewers. Every chapter and upgrade lets you go somewhere new or a little deeper, the enemies get replaced with stronger ones. You have to do it a lot but at least there's always a new detail or route to see. But for some reason it's only the hub world.

[@TheLonelyGoomba]

I replayed this game recently and yeah.... man it has a lot of issues. To the extent if they ever re-release this game, a lot of new players will probably dislike it due to the untouchable reputation it has and the expectations that come with that. A lot of the game is going back and forth the same linear corridor map design. The issue is, this is a goood chunk of the game. This isn’t as big a problem when going in blind because you’re atleast incentivised to do this to reveal more of the story which is entertaining. Remove that factor and TTYD has very simple map design and excessive back tracking. I actually don’t find it very fun to replay at all. Chapter 3 for instance, if you remove the mystery, is just a series of a handful of very easy fights dragged out. The train mystery is just walking back and forth talking to people with barely any combat or gameplay outside of talking to people. And Twilight Town goes without saying. The game relies so much on the narrative above gameplay. The backtracking is even worse if you’re doing all the side quests as you’re often requested to backtrack areas you’ve already gone back and forth 5 times already. I genuinely think chapter 1 is the best designed one in the game because you’re constantly moving forward as the narrative unfolds. Which makes it fun to replay.

[@MrDrBoi]

Yeah TTYD has definitely drifted into the Ocarina of Time category of being so hyped up that it'll be hard to match expectations for newcomers, even if the problems won't seem as bad to them at first. That said I still love this game to death, but there's no denying it isn't as good in repeat playthroughs.

[@dudamoos]

I remember playing this game multiple times in my youth. The funny thing is, even though I agree with you that chapter 4's backtracking is pretty bad, it's probably still my favorite chapter in the game because of the writing and character development. It's where Vivian, my favorite party member for the same reasons, joins our team. The events with Dupliss are interesting, even if they don't have the same impact on repeat playthroughs. I really do like chapter 4, but I have to admit that it's almost entirely carried by the writing and not the gameplay.

[@MrDrBoi]

Yeah, even though the backtracking is bad, I still think it's a fun chapter. Vivian is great, Doopliss is super memorable, and the vibe and aesthetic is really enjoyable.

[@lordofthetriforce7718]

While this is considered one of my most favorite video games on the GameCube, I had a problem with the backtracking, too. There should’ve been fast travel in the game or the levels undergoing a small change to make backtracking a little more tolerable.

[@MrDrBoi]

If they ever remastered this game, it's the one change I'd be open to.

[@tomatelord8126]

⁠@@MrDrBoiguess what, Mr.?

[@maleksherif6196]

IT MIGHT SEEM CRAZY WHAT IM BOUTTA SAY

[@lordofthetriforce7718]

@@maleksherif6196 they did it…

[@maleksherif6196]

@@lordofthetriforce7718 haha :) how excited were when they revealed it in the direct?

[@rebekah4761]

I would like to add that the majority of my voluntary backtracking was to see all of the dialogue for the different teammates. I love the mechanics for certain characters more than others, but once I learned they all say different stuff as a kid, I made it my goal to see all of the rest of the conversational content being offered.

[@LoL64dude1]

Even with the mass backtracking, chapter 4 was one of my favorites because of the introduction of Vivian who is my favorite. Though I will say the Crazee Dayzee's sleeplocking you and you have no partners was quite the stressful experience.

[@trumpeterjen]

TTYD is in my top five games of all time, but the backtracking is impossible to ignore. As someone who's played the game a million times, I can say it does not get less annoying each time. I'm a completionist, too, so adding in Goldbob's trouble, which is just the General White Tour 2.0, is further insult. It would've at least been easier if more blue pipes were available. I can understand why Glitzville doesn't have one, but what about Creepy Steeple? Fahr Outpost? I truly do adore this game, but every time, I wonder what the hell the devs were thinking. It's been almost two decades, and I still haven't figured it out.

[@trumpeterjen]

Thanks to the remake, this aged fantastically well. I guess the devs agreed with me!

[@sonicthehedge]

To be fair there backtracking on Chapter 1 too. Much less noticable as it's more well-hidden due to being early on i guess but the fact that Hooktail's castle is on the first room and you have go through like 6 rooms and a town to get an item and then backtrack your way to that first room really describes the game design around this game. Chapter 2, 4, 5, 6, and 7 all do this. The only exceptions being 3 being an Arena and 8 surprisely pretty much having none. Thankfully the remake does fix a few backtracking mainly the White General and only having to backtrack once in Chapter 4 instead of twice (once from returning to the town to get Vivian and once after getting the letter "p") and adding a spring in Chapter 5 to slightly reduce the backtracking but you still got to do the Minimum 3 times. Thats why switch version is my favorite and definitive edition.

[@DanielDugovic]

I still wish there were a switch to travel faster, ignore battles, etc. so players could focus on the parts they enjoy the most.

[@MrDrBoi]

That's why I love Bug Fables so much. Not only is the world more interconnected, but the fast travel makes traversal so much easier.

[@jessveness]

You can get it from the Pit of 100 Trials; but it's pretty difficult to get that far, especially when you're not already mostly through the game.

[@ShnoodleMc]

Ngl, I laughed when we found out that General White was looking for us too It legitimately is one of my favorite jokes in the game

[@ashleyblack7419]

Chapter 4 is definetly the most tedious to manage but I think there was an intend behind that. When you first go through the whole chapter, you're powerful and breeze through the battles ahead but on the way back as shadow mario you're much weaker, no more partners only you... returning with Vivian to get the "p" is to get you familiar with her abilities since you can only use her vs doopliss later on. the narrow paths are key to this since they wanted to ensure encounters. Just the last journey back to doopliss is not required anymore but it's needed to get to the boss room I guess

[@patrickshaw411]

I definitely think backtracking is a problem for the game! It hits hardest in chapter 4, which is such a shame given how absolutely phenomenal the atmosphere is. I feel like in 4 and 5 they could have had a couple secrets on the path and a shortcut back to the town that uses the partner's new ability. It wouldn't need to be anything fancy, but it would have been miles better for the player's experience!

[@iantaakalla8180]

At least Chapter 4’s backtracking highlights how hopeless you are without partners and is a unique experience within TTYD. Chapter 5 did not need to have such backtracking.

[@omega7057]

0:26 THANK YOU, I swear dude super paper mario is a really fun game with an engaging story and innovative ideas, it didn't deserve the backlash it got

[@Benjawin6671]

Honestly if Ocarina of Time can still be considered a 10/10 when it has the Water Temple then TTYD can still be one too even in spite of this one Chapter.

[@cammac6243]

It’s also worth mentioning that not only are the enemies in chapter 4 hard to avoid, there’s also a huge difficulty spike because you’re missing 1 of your 2 actions in a turn! In a recent play through I did, the backtracking was the only time I game over’d, since I had no partners to help me. And you do sort of use Vivian on the way to the steeple and back, since most enemies have “charge” which is the good time to use her veil ability. But she also sucks against the hyper clefts so that not great. (I 100% agree with the comment that said you should’ve been able to use Vivian as a way to get to the steeple faster somehow) Also on the general white hunt, the areas you visit are in a crappy order so you can’t stay in the blue pipe rooms and travel to the towns quickly… you have to awkwardly go to twilight town (and glitzville in the trouble I think) which you can’t use a blue pipe for. But considering how the BACKTRACKING is one of its only real things people can find to criticize the game with, I think that shows how great this game is. ❤

[@MrDrBoi]

Yeah, it's hard for me to critize this game too much past the backtracking. One of my favorites for sure!

[@as4180]

when you're backtracking in twilight town and get your ass beat by an amazee dayzee 😳

[@2bleachfans]

Ive always love TTYD and then this year thanks to a emulator I finally played The original PM64 and I think it is more playable and easier to replay.

[@buzinessdog]

good video! nostalgia clouded me from realizing the backtracking was a little egregious.

[@meta4knight]

General white quest absolutely a mean joke made by the developers. They knew what they were doing and I think it’s pretty funny

[@Isaax]

I've replayed it recently, on an emulator. Turns out you can bind a hotkey to the controller that unlocks the emulation speed, letting the game run as fast as your PC will render, which usually meant 2x - 4x speed. I have abused this button like you wouldn't believe in said playthrough. What an absolute godsent, imagine having the patience for this at 100% speed, my god

[@taylorneville7471]

Honestly in my opinion i actually like the back tracking in the game just because it makes it feel like a more real world compared to moat instant fast travel games. And as you go the bqck tracking is made easier and easier with thr shortcuts. I do think its to help the art style and find some secrets. And help add more depth to the game im happy with it

[@MisterL777]

Now that I think about it this game is yet another example of the Japanese having a weird obsession with the moon in their fictional stories/legends (from Kaguya Hime onwards) In their mythology the moon is often that place that hides deep secrets, and is inhabited (by something not quite human). The hero can go there like some greek heroes could go to the underworld. There is nothing of the sort in western mythology (the moon turns some people into werewolves or influences magic rituals etc but it's not a "place" per se) which is extremely interesting. It's such a "Japanese thing". And you can see it in so many games, from Zelda to Final Fantasy etc

[@MrDrBoi]

Definitely a trope I'm fond of!

[@robertsantos8129]

The backtracking has honestly never bothered me. Yeah, it can be annoying, but the rest of the game is so much fun that it distracts from it.

[@Pokefan8263]

I’m so happy they created the pipe room in the remake!

[@emacsterm2949]

Found this video after playing TTYD on switch. Keelhaul Key just about made me want to turn off my switch. I believe there is a total of 7 maybe 8 back and forth trips thru the same areas fighting the same enemies over and over again. It almost felt like the game was trolling me 😅

[@fox-milessavioroffoxes3782]

I love how they fixed some of the backtracking in the remake

[@MrDrBoi]

Absolutely, Chapter 4 is so much more enjoyable now!

[@bagelgod946]

I never had a problem with the backtracking but I can understand why many have. If we ever get a remake/remaster I hope it fixes some of the backtracking moments. As some of them would be really easy to fix like chapter 4 or general white.

[@Surgemaster2012]

I always saw chapter 4 as a design oversight, as it could easily be fixed by a simple issue. The player has a reason to the first couple of times, even when getting Vivian you're using her ability to access a different part of the dungeon (going under the well) however once you get into the room with the parrot when he gets startled he drops a switch and it causes and earthquake. You grab the letter P and when you head out the door a pipe appears right beside the door and said pipe would lead to the Twilight Trail entrance. Then once Doopliss heads back to the steeple you just take the pipe back and go to the top of the steeple, issue completely solved as I took away having to backtrack two more times (which were the only times it didn't feel needed)

[@Lemmy-prod]

There can’t be a remake and if there was it would be fan made

[@bagelgod946]

@@Lemmy-prod There can be a remake.. it’s not like they don’t own it or anything.

[@Lemmy-prod]

@@bagelgod946 it’s actually proven that Nintendo will go on but ther is a HIGH chance that the remake you said can not happen because Nintendo is trying out new styles.

[@SuperStarfy64]

​@@Lemmy-prod oh Louie of little faith

[@56Bagels]

The simplest answer is often the best. As you said, every major instance of backtracking leads to a new partner… and then the new partner doesn’t open up a shortcut? Why not? What an easy missed win.

[@MrDrBoi]

Seriously! Just a give me a few extra warp points that's all lol

[@Brainsore.]

This explains why my most recent play through of TTYD felt extremely long and drawn out in the second half. So much tedious running around for pretty much no good reason.

[@MrDrBoi]

Yeah, the middle chapters are a bit of a slog on repeated playthroughs.

[@Nate9-9]

Hot take: TTYD back tracking has never bothered me.

[@powergannon]

It’s not the worst backtracking in a game by any means, but it is annoying enough that I prefer PM64 over Thousand Year Door.

[@toamatoro570]

I can actually kind of excuse the General White quest of all things. Yes, you have to travel to every single previous area only to return where you started, but as it's close to endgame I mainly see it as a recap. If you know what you're doing you can complete it in about 10 minutes. Did it need to be here? No, but I can excuse reuse of assets to an extent if it's done to recap the adventure before the game ends. The wedding ring quest was a bigger slap in the face if I'm being honest. With the exception of Chapter 4 and MAYBE 5 it was one of the only instances where I really felt like the game was wasting my time.

[@tysondennis1016]

I'm designing a wide open Metroidvania, and I'm going to have abilities that make backtracking fun. Not only you get from one side of the map to the other faster and faster each time, you can also open new paths that open up new areas, and with them, new items. I'm also gonna have sidequests that reward backtracking and memorization.

[@xxProjectJxx]

8:36 - the difficulty of avoiding combat is the entire point of why Chapter 4 works IMO. Your first time through the area is a breeze. Then you're forced to go through it without party members and each battle is suddenly more challenging and time consuming. It highlights to the player how vulnerable they've become without their friends to back them up. Then, on your next pass through, you go through with Vivian, a brand new party member and the combat encounters serve as an opportunity for the player to practice her abilities before the upcoming boss fight. The majority of TTYD's backtracking is like this. The return trip is often recontextualized for the player, either by a new partner, a new ability, a new goal, or just a new visual look like the sunset filter on the train, or the presense of Flavio. This makes it fresh for the player to go through the same rooms, and it's why I think TTYD's backtracking is an overhated issue. Sometimes it is excessive. The final trip to town and back in Chapter 4 is an example. Ideally in that case, the player could have used Vivian's abilities to open some sort of shortcut between the town and the steeple so that once you get the letter P, you don't have to make another set of trips. But these sorts of moments are the exception rather than the rule. Most of the backtracking is kept interesting IMO.

[@SeniorRed]

I didn't really see backtracking as a big deal back then, to me it felt as a way of extending exploration a bit to avoid every level becoming a flat linear progression, I do think that levels aren't just as ample as they were in PM64 but each one of them has their own charm and backtracking during sidequesting helps you discover and appreciate some few details you inevitably miss out by being too inmersed on the main quest. Two things I'll never stop hating, the excess express boss and the x yux on the moon that stunlocks you to death.

[@malongdong7406]

If i classified all paper mario games this would be my ranking High tier: Paper Mario 64 and TTYD(tied) Middle tier:Super paper mario and paper mario the origami king (SPM has better story and origami king has a challenging gameplay) Low tier: fuck sticker's star and color spash, they dont deserve a full mention

[@ShiningDrake777]

I'm like a year late to this video, but I'm honestly surprised I didn't spot any comments about a certain side quest. The stupid side quest with the flower person in Petalburg was... If you didn't realize you need to bring them *two* hot dogs it's actually almost parodically absurd given the sheer distances involved. Like, every single instance of it in the story had at least a reasonable justification, and while they could get time consuming and annoying they didn't really feel as much like an outright slap in the face as having to fly to the floating city (which I don't think when the side quest unlocks you can take a blue pipe there? I forget if there even is one.), come straight back, and then be told you have to go again just to get a second hot dog, before coming back and being sent off to get a whole other item entirely. Knowing what you're doing and planning properly ahead of time can engate this, but it does end up just feeling rather egregious because you can literally get sent to do the same fairly arduous task twice with no justification just to be sent off to do a THIRD task and backtrack more.

[@MrDrBoi]

I was mainly trying to include unskippable instances of backtracking in the video, which is why I didn't feature many of the Trouble Center quests, but you're absolutely right. This quest, and the briefcase quest, are just straight up terrible lol

[@Protofall]

Chapter 4 was very painful, especially when I missed things and had to do extra slogs through the forest. At one point I got the letter/character in the chest, but didn't think to eaves drop on the Parrot. By the time I got back to the town, I figured out what I needed to do, but instead of doing a 2-way slog through the forest, again, I just went on youtube to see what the Parrot said. You also hit the nail on the head with Ch 3 Vs Ch 4 "avoiding enemies" problems. The Ms Mouse quest was also bad because I went to the castle 3 separate times. Once I had no clue where it was, but suspected it could be behind the cracked wall, 2nd time I came back with bombery and didn't find it, 3rd after checking a guide, I found out I had to blow on one area of the huge boss room...all for the worst ally in the game... Unfortunately when I got to Chapter 6, I just decided to search for a long play and see someone else go through the game, without making the same mistakes/extra-backtracks I did. Unfortunately I don't have much time anymore. I started TTYD at the beginning of the year and I want to do other things. On the bright side, because I binge watched a long play, now I can finally watch the TTYD commentary videos in my "Watch Later" playlist, which includes this video!

[@pokepress]

The backtracking can definitely be exacerbated by your gameplay experience. That probably happened to me in some degree as well.

[@Protofall]

I also want to mention how funny it was that I watched a long-play of the rest of TTYD just over a week ago, then DAYS later I see its getting remade for Switch. If only I had a bit more patience, lol.

[@Vaaads]

i remember rq'ing when i was a kid at the section in chapter 4 where doopliss takes your form and you have to go back to town alone. I kept getting wiped out by the flowers and I eventually ended up just stopping for awhile. I come back and then turns out my memory card was corrupted and I couldn't continue :/

[@knightofarkronia9968]

I’ve heard that the remake has taken measures to reduce the backtracking!

[@clonecommanderrex8542]

They added warp pipes

[@knightofarkronia9968]

@@clonecommanderrex8542 Exactly! It makes the General White part a lot less tedious!

[@MusuemBucket]

@@knightofarkronia9968and Chapter 4

[@mattafields]

The general white mission was such a goose chase that I as a kid I literally got lost on what to do next and never beat the game because of it. "They said he was in X location, he's not there! The game must be broken because the NPC says he should be here and they continue to say it even when I go back there"

[@ZaKRo-bx7lp]

going to glitzville twice to buy a hotdog really was a terrible

[@MrDrBoi]

Absolutely! So dumb lol

[@ZaKRo-bx7lp]

@@MrDrBoi I feel like the developers wanted us to hate that character because of the awful reward it gave too. That mission was such a joke

[@LamanKnight]

When I was a child, I only got very limited amounts of time to play video games; my parents' rules were that we could only play on the final three days of the week, only when school, homework, and chores were done, and as long as we didn't have some other obligation during those times. Oh, and for several years, my parents set the limitation of only letting my siblings and me play in 20-minute turns, if the game was single-player. They later raised that to a 30-minute limit, but still, it severely limited progress I made in games. One small benefit to these restrictions, though, is that my experience with each game --- especially RPGs --- was spread out, and lingered with me. (I mean, I can still picture in my mind, and mentally navigate the space, of entire stages of Banjo-Kazooie, for instance, because it took over a year before I completed the game. The time I spent not playing games during the week, but wishing I could, led to me reflecting on them so much that I started memorizing them.) Each time I got to turn on a game and visit the world, it felt like I was returning to a place where I was happy. Grinding, backtracking, and fetch quests in games didn't feel so tedious to me; and frustrating bosses or obstacles didn't bother me all that much, because I was always forced to take time off between each session. Now, in this game, even I found the General White quest tedious. But since I would go for such long periods of time not being able to visit the game's world, it was kind of comforting when I got the excuse to revisit parts of the world I'd visited earlier, and say hi to characters in those places. Sure, it's a chore, but given the way my gameplay experience went, it was an enjoyable chore for me. Of course, at this point of my life, since my play sessions of RPGs tend to be longer, grinding and backtracking have come to frustrate me more. (The entire second half of Bravely Default... heh. If you've played the game, I don't even need to say anything. Just hear the title, and you know what I'm talking about.) So, I have a strange sort of fondness for the backtracking in games like The Thousand-Year Door. Kind of a nice thing to reminisce on.

[@TheInkPitOx]

Thousand Year Door and Super Paper Mario are tied for my favorite in the franchise

[@justusleagueofawesom]

Having played TTYD for the first time in 2022, without hindsight or nostalgia, I found the game highly enjoyable but very held back because of the amount of backtracking and the varying quality of / payoff for it. Thanks for breaking down this issue that often gets overlooked in many discussions of this game

[@natecgames4612]

I love this game to hell and back but chapters 4 and 5 have the worst case of, "start at this side of the map so that you can go to the other end of the map only to go back because we unlocked a trigger that gives you the thing you need where you started and then go back to the other end of the map to progress."

[@katt-the-pig]

Very good video, and I agree. The backtracking is a pretty big issue. But when discussing the game, I tend to gloss over the backtracking because the rest of the game overall is good enough to make up for it, IMO. That said, you definitely should've had a spoiler warning for this video. Showing the final boss? Really? =P

[@based980]

the game is over 10 years old

[@katt-the-pig]

There are no less than three blind playthroughs of the game being posted on this site, right now. Just because a game is old doesn't mean there's nobody left to spoil.

[@hardcoreironman3474]

Related is something this game does several times that I can remember at least happening in the sewers: Having something gated by two progressions when one is earlier than the other. There's the room with the spikes in the floor that require Vivian to complete... but also require Paper Thin to get into. You get Paper Thin and go through the bars thinking there might be something cool inside... but it's an unsolvable problem at that point. Why even have the bars at all to stop you if they're not the ultimate progression gate keeping you from the reward? There's another room that requires the Paper Boat to get to, that has a shine sprite that requires the Spring Jump. This is a little less egregious as it has two other shine sprites you can get immediately, but again it's an item that's hidden behind two *separate* character progressions. Necessitating backtracking if you attempt it before you have both.

[@MrDrBoi]

I never really noticed that but that's a good point, you shouldn't be tricked into backtracking to a spot if you can't do anything there yet.

[@sagehero7768]

As someone's who played only the remake, there's an exploit I used to get all 3 Shine Sprites right away. The trick is to get on top of one of the Shine Sprite boxes and hammer the highest one, then get the other two as normal to get all 3 (I think you have to do the Super Hammer trick to make it work?) Was that exploit possible in the original, btw?

[@ohno5559]

I totally understand wanting a new TTYD but Super Paper Mario is fantastic and I wish it didn't alwats get criticized for being different from TTYD every time it was brought up

[@PlaguedByEarth]

Personally I found the backtracking in Chapter 5 to be much worse than Chapter 4. This is probably because I've gotten pretty good at making the trip in Chapter 4 quickly, and dodging most of those enemies, but after replaying it I always think "hey, that wasn't as bad as I remember" after finishing the backtracking. One part you glossed over in Chapter 4's favour was how when you return to Twilight Town in your shadow form, all of the townsfolk have new, interesting dialogue. It makes it feel worth it; time has passed, things have changed, you're different, and there's a reward for all the backtracking in this. Maybe it's not as rewarding on subsequent playthroughs when you're expecting it, but it's still considerable. Chapter 5 doesn't have any of this, including much more tedious and difficult to avoid encounters. On top of this, Chapter 5 being directly after Chapter 4 makes the backtracking in Chapter 5 feel much worse. It's backtracking after backtracking, and you're going to be fatigued from backtracking after Chapter 4, while going into Chapter 4 you're going to be fresh, and the notion won't hit as hard. Chapter 4 backtracking is still egregious, but Chapter 5 just feels worse. Thanks for the video!

[@jamesmcdavid1673]

LOL. Compared to Sticker Star, where you have to beat eight levels in World 3, then play through five of those levels a second time, TTYD's backtracking is a small price to pay for a fun adventure.

[@MrDrBoi]

Sticker Star really is an abomination lol

[@pokepress]

Somehow that bothered me less, perhaps because it was less linear. I won’t say Sticker Star is better than TTYD, but I view them as having less “daylight” between them than most, it seems.

[@Ckoz2829]

I don’t think a game has ever wasted my time more than TTYD’s General White quest. I’m usually more tolerant of backtracking, but they very deliberately wasted the player’s time with that one. It was barely even a quest.

[@MrDrBoi]

Such a dumb payoff too

[@tenchimuyo69]

Yoshi kid in general kind of exposes some problems with the game's map design. By the end of the game, I think Mario's name is actually Gonzales, because I will almost never hear the dialogue of the other party members once I have Yoshi.

[@MrDrBoi]

I'm in a similar boat. Aside from certain specific situations, it's almost always Yoshi Kid following me around once I get him.

[@zurtur272]

The way I see backtracking is just an attempt from the game to get you to gain levels at a pace where you wouldn't have much of a reason to grind for levels on a specific spot to get ready enough for the boss of each chapter. And trust me, I've been killing anything and everything that appears on-screen so far and already well prepared to shill even more stuff. For more tedious that it might be, EXP is EXP. And thus, cannot be ignored. (Even when in most cases enemies just drop 1 Star Point per battle since you're going through previous areas.)

[@veghesther3204]

Its SO BAD the Switch remake added IN 7 COLORED Blue warp pipes each one warps you from the start of a major dungeon to LIKE the END of it so take the part where you need to take all 100 Fuzzies in that woods from the END of that area BACK to the dungeons entrance for key item then take them AGAIN to to the top floor to fight the boss of that area the Blue Warp Pipe Switch remake WOULD warp you and all 100 fuzzies from the TOP floor of that area BACK to the entrance making it way easier to backtrack then having to do so manually.

[@OOFUS4103]

Godzilla had a stroke reading this and died

[@MusuemBucket]

@@OOFUS4103Fr what is bro talking about 💀

[@OOFUS4103]

@@MusuemBucket I literally tried breaking it up into pieces and it only confused me more

[@BornLosersGaming]

Seeing complaints laid out like this, with a fair share of the complaints being, "I had to enter combat so many times", really makes me wonder why people won't give games like Origami King a chance, when it has some of the best level design, best dialogue, and best characters SINCE SPM and TTYD. It's clear that even TTYD's combat can become tedious once subjected to it too many times, and if that's the ONLY defining difference between old Paper Mario, and new Paper Mario... I guess I just wish more people would give it a fair shake! There's a lot to love in TOK, hope more fans of the classics get to see that one day.

[@MrDrBoi]

Personally, I didn't try Origami King because Bug Fables came out around the same time and I chose to play that instead, but I do want to give it a shot eventually. But I think the complaints in the video were more around the level structure and progression than the combat. Combat is really fun, but not when you're forced to refight the same enemies over and over again due to poor design. *coughbreathofthewildcough*

[@iantaakalla8180]

Also, The Origami King still does not solve any of those problems in terms of battles. Yes, you never backtrack in The Origami King, but the battles are still stymied because the puzzle ring mechanic either is frustrating or is the same, and then attacks are useless or perfunctory. There are surprisingly few enemies as well, so that is not fixed. So if your complaint is that backtracking makes the game feel bad in TTYD, going to The Origami King literally only fixes the backtracking.

[@BornLosersGaming]

@@MrDrBoi Yeah I coulda worded some stuff better. I think my thought was that, if you were to view combat in Origami King and TTYD in a similar vein, that it's fun for a bit but eventually you might want to avoid enemies, then TOK begins to differentiate itself from TTYD by having level structure and progression that's both fun and varied, and rewarding in that it's always pushing it's dialogue and characters forward. And at THAT point, TOK might be worth checking out for those that simply love the world Paper Mario brings, because it lacks some of the iffy level design choices found more often in Sticker Star, and occasionally in Color Splash. Sorry that kinda dereailed your OG point though!

[@TheMeaningofFun]

Hey MrDrBoi I was wondering what is your opinion on the backtracking in Chapter 1 in TTYD? I’m mainly referring to the part where you must backtrack all the way left several screens from Shhwonk Fortress to the very first screen of Petal Meadows with the Sun and Moon Stone to unlock the pipe to Hooktail Castle. Also in Hooktail Castle when you have to backtrack a screen or two for a key immediately after getting the paper-thin curse ability - So easy to forget about that because the black chest is right at a dead end.

[@snauserdog6444]

Really nice editing, easy to watch, overall good content. Id recommend bringing your voice more to the front as I felt like the music was overbearing and at times too loud. Im watching the content for your commentary, not the soundtracks

[@MrDrBoi]

Missed this comment but thanks! Audio is definitely not my strongest aspect haha

[@concordjuniper33]

I will say, as much as I understand people's hatred of this game's backtracking and I myself at times find it to be a little annoying, it actually doesn't bother me too much. I spent my whole life growing up in a countryside home where commerce is always a 20 minute drive away, so I'm used to spending a lot of time travelling just to get from home to church, get groceries, or whatever, and then drive just as long all the way back. Sometimes in life we do run into slogs where all we're doing is going from one place to another and wish we could get there much more quickly to save our time. And, while sure, it is a bit annoying to have to deal with in a video game, at least in TTYD it's justifiable, because the story clearly comes first, and sometimes it can't be told in the same way without making some kind of sacrifice. If there's anything I wish was different, it would be that there's a faster way to get to Creepy Steeple since it is admittedly pretty annoying to have to get from one place to the other, especially with how unfun the whole journey is. But imagine if that trek hadn't been there, just for a moment. The impact that that chapter has in the game probably wouldn't be quite as impactful. Another person on this comments section mentioned that having the final Doopliss fight take place in town instead of the Steeple is a good idea, and they explain why pretty well. I think that definitely is one fix on the chapter that would make it about perfect. But, yeah, sometimes backtracking, especially in a game like this, can't always be helped, because it's a necessary evil for this kind of game. A couple more points I want to bring up: Chapter six is probably my favorite chapter in the game, and I feel like MrDrBoi explained why very well. Personally, I don't call what this game has backtracking. I don't know what I'd call it, but, instead of thinking of it as backtracking, I more like to think about it as how one lives in real life. Real life constantly has backtracking, going through the same routine every day, going to the same places all the time. And yet, while sometimes we might get tired of it, we also live with it, because we're creatures of habit. And it isn't possible to live with constant changes happening. Even if one moves a lot, eventually they'll get used to that, too. So, moving around between coaches on a train, especially for just one chapter, is not a problem at all, because it's reflective of how we walk around in the same environments all the time (plus I'm a sucker for train stories, anyway! ;) ). The last thing I want to bring up is chapter seven. I'm pretty sure I understand why the General White hunt is there. Some developer must've thought it was a good idea to send the player through a rabbit hole of returning to all the previous chapters in the game so they can reflect on where all they've been and how far they've come throughout the entire game up to this point. It makes sense, because you're almost at the end of the game. And yet, while I can understand why it's there, because I love going over things from my past and seeing where it's gotten me over all the years I've lived, if they were going to do that in this game, there's probably a much better way of going about it. I mean, yes, again, the cannon blast to the moon probably wouldn't be quite as impactful if we cut it down too much, what I think they could've done at the very least is make a quicker way to get straight to and from Fahr Outpost, since those enemies in between are annoying to have to deal with all the time. Heck, they actually come back once you leave town, which is annoying because both the path leading into town and the town itself are considered the same place. At least don't make us have to fight them again on our way back to Rogueport Sewers! Sheesh! I also like what MrDrBoi said about things not changing in any of the places since you last visited them. I mean, sure, this game doesn't have to go to the likes of a Zelda game where things have completely changed, like the different times in OoT or the time gap and events between BotW and TotK. But I'd suppose maybe some kind of small progression just to show you that each of the different places have grown since your visit would've been nice, like maybe the Punies making some kind of addition to their tree or the Twilight Town dwellers making a statue of Mario in the middle of their square would've been nice. I would liked to have seen how much things would've expanded on Keelhaul Key! There's a lot of potential there! But yeah, I wrote down a pretty long comment reflecting on all this. I don't know if anyone's taking the time to read this (if you did, thanks!), but hopefully I made my point. This is one of my favorite games, and, while I'll admit it's not perfect, it is definitely well worth playing as it is. And I hope Nintendo and Intelligent Systems consider remaking it for the Switch or whatever system Nintendo has next, with some fixes. Because, man, does it deserve some attention!

[@NickMario1]

They did!

[@Antonio-is2cn]

TTYD is a reflection of life? ...Damn TOO relatable!

[@JoelAe]

Personally, I only feel the backtracking burden on chapter 4, when you lose your allies and must cross the woods avoiding the Amazy Dayzee. And when searching for General White of course. I have always been surprised that backtracking is considered the major sin of TTYD as I have never found it that remarkable.

[@runningoncylinders3829]

Oh how I wish the scenario with Doopliss only had him ambush you once by the town, take Vivian with you, and have him already back at the Steeple for when you get the "P" Letter. Keelhaul Key's 3-layer room is annoying; perhaps Bobbery or Flavio creating a major change to it on a revisit would've helped. General White should have been optional content; just have Goldbob be the endorsement needed to launch the cannon. That's about all the trimming I would like.

[@MrDrBoi]

I agree with these ideas!

[@KingGregory27]

Fantastic video mate. TTYD is arguably my favorite game of all time, but on my most recent play through I was definitely feeling the effects of the backtracking. The amazee dayzees actually made the backtracking in chapter 4 worth it to me, but 5 & 7’s are just flat out bad. I’ll definitely check out some other videos because I like how you not only critique the choices the developers made, but offer alternatives as to what would’ve been a better option. Keep it up!

[@MrDrBoi]

Thanks!!

[@gamingwithahandicapreviews]

I will never understand why people say TTYD is one of the best RPGS ever. Paper Mario 64 and Mario RPG is a way better Mario RPG experience and TTYD was the first RPG I played in 2004! Take the nostalgia goggles off people TTYD is just “good” not incredible like Paper Mario 64, Mario RPG Final Fantasy 7 and Final Fantasy 9!

[@milesstorzillo7650]

While I do plan on getting this game next year (whether it's for my birthday or Christmas, because I also have my eyes on Princess Peach Showtime, which comes out before my birthday), I am already dreading the General White search. I may have never played the original, but I've heard far more than enough to know about it.

[@plooper14]

It is really not that bad. It’s blown way out of proportion and if you have an attention span higher than a 3 year old you should be fine

[@user-bf6gz8ej4o]

repetitive Backtracking with nothing new on the way is bad, yes. And that's exactly the reason why I hate hearing people whine about Zelda Skyward Sword because there "are only three areas". Yes, but EVERYTIME you visit them, there's something new so it ISN'T Backtracking by definition!

[@GodChaos333]

I will say chapter 2 and 4 are my least favorite part of TTYD, and you have a point that you don’t think of flaws as much until you get older and analyze games more. The back tracking is more common in this game. It’s still a treat of a game. I really miss these caliber of paper Mario games. All the new ones after sticker star lack so much of the design charm or meaningful story.

[@ketsu4435]

i get why ppl don't like the backtracking, but i just... never found it that bad. I enjoy it to a degree even, i love fighting the same enemy over and over again. To me the experience of paper mario, the beautiful world, the fun combat, has always BEEN the payoff

[@Firestar4041]

As someone who grew up, and loves the game, yeah The General White quest-line still just utterly kills any enjoyment for me on repeated playthrus

[@ChaosXeloc]

After over a decade, I finally revisited this game by having my partner, who is a bit newer to video games, play it. I had only ever played a single time in the past, so the backtracking was something that I had completely glossed over in my playthrough as a kid, and it annoyed me just watching her struggle to get through places like the Twilight Woods not only once, but repeatedly. The writing and characters are pretty phenomenal, and helps TTYD really stand out even as an older title, but my perception of it has definitely soured a little after this run. The only things I remembered about Keelhaul Key were Bobbery joining your team after needing some cola, and that there was a ghost skeleton boss fight, but not the wife's letter or the ship battle. Just wanted to throw in my two cents about that...

[@jaker721]

Hey man! Just discovered your channel. You make good stuff! Keep it up, homie!

[@MrDrBoi]

Thanks!!

[@thescarredsinner895]

What is the game at 1:48

[@MrDrBoi]

Fable 2

[@thescarredsinner895]

@@MrDrBoi you mean it’s a sequel?

[@reececox666]

The backtracking does give you time to tattle the enemies and gain star points, I think it was atleast intended for that purpose, but they could’ve definitely done some spots where you could now fly over to grab something or a crack in the wall. It would make the levels more similar to rougeport where you see all these things you can’t do yet, and chests you can’t grab.

[@SwaxMain4u]

Its not really the backtracking thats the issue, its the hallway level design. Every area outside if rougeport is basicaly just a straight line and i feel like it was deliberate to play more into the paper aspect of the series

[@DaNintendude]

Even though Chapter 6 does its backtracking pretty well, the chapter as a whole is not fun for me on repeated playthroughs. I already remember the mystery so it's no fun to go through all the steps again. Especially when I think I'm supposed to be doing one thing, but I'm actually supposed to do another thing first. I hated Riverside Station as a kid because I preferred the story of the train, and the enemy encounters were really difficult to me. But nowadays, I really look forward to the station as it's a breath of fresh air compared to the monotonous mystery solving on the train. Really great chapter on a first playthrough, but it's just not that fun when you return to the game already knowing what's going on.

[@lkjkhfggd]

The only backtracking that really bothered me as a kid was chapter 4 and all the side quests making you go back to hooktail castle. Not sure how to fix the hooktail side quests, but just improving the forest to have shortcuts Vivian unlocks is all you need to fix it.

[@MrDrBoi]

They definitely could have added a warp point to Hooktail Castle with how often you revisit it.

[@lkjkhfggd]

@@MrDrBoi True, but I think the 'difficulty' or 'work' the developers want the player to exert for those quests would need to be increased elsewhere, and maybe they didn't want to add anything more to the castle itself.

[@jamesonshekmeister]

In my heart, it would be great for them to remake this game to fix the backtracking issue, but in my mind it’s telling me, “No.” And it’s because I’m afraid that they could make it worse if not remade properly. But despite these conflicting feelings, I still think this game has some positives that outweigh the negatives. It’s not the best, but it’s definitely not the worst. It’s great and it doesn’t have to be perfect. It just has to be fun and rememberable for its heartfelt narrative.

[@MrDrBoi]

Yeah I also fear a remake because I doubt some of the content in this game would fly by Nintendo's 2023 standards. Just a nice remaster would be enough.

[@SiliconSlyWolf]

I don't recall hearing you mentioned anything about backtracking on the side quests. At least they're optional, but I'll never do them again if I ever replay TTYD. It's one of those things a simple quest log could have fixed, but they decided you can only do one at a time.

[@MrDrBoi]

Except for the Ultra Stone quest, I tried to leave out any of the optional backtracking. But I agree, it's annoying to return to the trouble center after every side quest and some of the quests are horrible, like getting hot dogs for the bulb-ulb in Petal Meadows.

[@evbable]

I remember chapter 4…. Fondly. Guess who didn’t realize they were typing in all caps and kept retracing their steps trying to figure out where they went wrong. Still love the game.

[@MrDrBoi]

Wow you must've been so annoyed when you realized what mistake you were making.