How big was Gondor's Army during the Lord of the Rings?

[@michaelrydberg86]

Seeing that Rohan in the book have 10 000 troops (after the two battles at Isen and Helms Deep) and send 6k to Gondor and leave 4k to guard to the east (in the book this is on purpose, Theoden was not expecting more spears than he brought - as in the movie) I do actually feel that roughly 20k is a good estimate, seeing Gondor is much larger and have a greater population than Rohan. Most troops from the outside regions, especially the coastal ones, had to stay behind and was not present at Minas Tirith though (which you do bring up). 900 Citadel Guards is probably too high though. But I would say that 20k + troops for Gondor is a valid assumption. Nice video.

[@lordsofarnor4128]

Thank you. Looking back I do fully agree 900 citadel guards is too many but we do only have the ithilen company of 300 or so to compare

[@ArchangelTyrael]

But where was Gondor when the West Fold fell?

[@TzarTzarevich777]

*points to Minas Tirith on the map*

[@danielward-smith9466]

It was in Gondor, I believe.

[@waylonjohnson1578]

With a bewitched Theoden and Sauron ruling by proxy through Grima, Rohan never requested aid from Gondor, as that would have only hindered Sauron's own plans.

[@Aldanil]

If rohan could muster 12 000 troops at maximum during the war of the ring, army size of gondor would be ~30 000 troops because gondor is more advanced and populated country than rohan. Sauron would have over hundred thousand orcs and other evil creatures plus tens of thousands of wicked men under his command during war of the ring. Men of dale had maximum of 10 000 troops and dwarves of erebor and iron hills would have 8000-9000 troops because dale is smaller than rohan and men are more populated than dwarves. Elves of mirkwood would have 6000-7000 troops because wood elves are the most populated of the elven factions but i would still imagine that there are more dwarves than wood elves during war of the ring. Lothlorien would have 4000 troops, lindon 2500-3000 and rivendell 500. Dwarves of the blue mountains would have 1500-2500 troops, shire would have 2000-3000 and breeland 6000 at maximum. The LotR is set on medieval times and in medieval times army sizes were not so large. We shall not forget the great plague and endless war that has severely weakened the nations of midde earth.

[@raidensergi2378]

The peak of gondor became 100.000 men. However, due to several internal problems, civil war, Mordor attacks, plague, the army was reduced to 30.000 men. However, they were distributed between Two parts of the Kingdom. Minas tirith and south of Gondor. At the city of minas tirith had a garrison of 3000 men. Lands near minas tirith had a garrison of 1500 men.

[@thegreatlarry9454]

Great video, I remember once doing the math myself years ago. However, as stated, that's just what the fiefs sent to Gondor, not necessarily their entire strength. Obviously, Minas Tiriith is a great fortress and bulwark, but just like Helm's Deep, you cannot afford to commit all your forces in one major spot. Theoden said it correctly when he left garrisons before marching to Gondor: what's the point of winning the war if you come back home and other enemies have destroyed everything? Then the victory would be hollow. So everyone sent what they could to defend Minas Tirith and hoped for the best, while also keeping enough strength to fight their own battles. Remembering from the books that at the same time, Sauron was attacking the lonely mountain, Rivendell, Lothlorien, as well as others that escape my memory. Because it was such a huge fortress, it also did not need huge numbers to defend it, as the walls and gates proved.

[@BigSkoomatv]

Great job! Keep up the good work!

[@lordsofarnor4128]

Thank you

[@AGS363]

The numbers seemed to fit. Nice insight.

[@lordsofarnor4128]

Thank you

[@bleekskaduwee6762]

Nice video , first time I have seen your content. I watched a similar video from DarthGandolf a few years back

[@collintrytsman3353]

you make the assumption that the armies which attended the muster to Minas Tirith are the absolute total, not every man would have been dispatched to reinforce the city. There would have been those left behind to garrison those regions Lossarnach, Lebenin etc. as they were being attacked by Corsairs throughout this same period of muster. Your 'guess' would be far more

[@lordsofarnor4128]

Yes you are right the total number of troops would be much larger indeed, but seeing how the only numbers we get are those that are sent to Minas Tirith that is why that is the “confirmed number” because that is the only number you can say without a doubt Gondor’s military had. Though I do admit I should probably have called it the absolute minimum rather than the confirmed number

[@legionarybooks13]

My big issue with how Gondorian soldiers were depicted in the films is every last one of them were pathetic chumps who couldn't fight! These are supposed to be professional soldiers, and they're all wearing full-plate. Newsflash, Peter: Armour works! Otherwise, why wear it? I can understand getting overwhelmed by sheer numbers, but if you watch Return of the King, in almost every one-on-one fight, the Gondorians get their asses handed to them in a matter of seconds by orcs half their size wielding rusted weapons. Honestly, you're hard pressed to find Gondorian soldiers killing any orcs at all. It was really frustrating to watch and kind of ruined what was otherwise an epic film...well, that and the Army of the Dead one-shotting Sauron's forces at Pelennor Fields (seriously, that was weak and terribly anticlimactic). Okay, and the Nazgul sweeping in and completely wrecking all the defenders on the ramparts was kind of ridiculous. Did all those archers not think to shoot up? Fell beasts were mortal, and a few volleys would have scattered or killed them. Seriously, as much as I loved the films, Peter Jackson really did dirty by the Gondorian soldiers, almost as badly as he caricatured Denethor.

[@lordsofarnor4128]

Oh I totally agree about the soldiers that is one of the only things I don’t like about Peter Jackson’s trilogy the armies are so Hollywood based by the bad guys having an insane amount of orcs well over a 100,000 and the Gondorians seem to have 300

[@georgesst-pierre6596]

That happens in every movie almost to be fair, the kills on screen are meant for the heroes for the most part - making the enemy look more dangerous and effective by killing off NPC's lol, makes the Hero's kill all the better. Though I agree, you should show some level of competance. The absolute worst part for me, is that Gandalf had to tell archers to not shoot arrows at inanimate objects - and an assault tower won't break or stop moving by shooting arrows into it. You gotta kill the trolls pushing them idiots 😂😂

[@lordsofarnor4128]

Oh I know right the archers trained for this all their lives and they don’t even know what to shoot at

[@waynepurcell6058]

Virtually everyone wore maille in the books, even Gimli who comes from a race of smiths just had a maille hauberk and iron cap.

[@kevenpinder7025]

I had a go at this many years ago, and I discovered that Tolkien had sprinkled some useful breadcrumbs that would make it possible to craft an algebraic formula to get a pretty solid answer. I don't remember this exact, but I think I can guide in pretty close. First, I agree that the start point must be the troops sent from the southern fiefs. I agree that the "tithe" reference means that only 10% of the available totals for the South were sent. The rest remained behind to protect against the Corsairs of Umbar. The tithes = X. I agree the Swan Knight company represented all of their strength. We know that Rohan arrived with 6000 horse. There is a reference that 1/3 of that total were casualties. We can infer that 30% of that total were killed, or about 10%, but the rest were hors de combat. Tolkien relates Aragorn's sortie was (IIRC) 4000 strong, yet left the city better garrisoned than before Rohan arrived. (Y + (6000 x .6 =3600) - 4000 > original garrison). The only confounding factor is the number of men who were brought by Aragon aboard the Black Dromunds. It should be noted that the Tower Guard were almost certainly a small part of the garrison. The majority would have been militia Men at Arms drawn from the city's residents. I know I've forgotten bits, but maybe you can use it for a start.

[@blakecoleman5627]

Great Video!

[@lordsofarnor4128]

Thank you

[@josepnebotrius872]

It is the lowest estimate as there is the list of forces that were detached to defend Minas Tirith. So are what Gondor in other places could spare. Even if it is the defence of the capital. Add other Garrisons. Forces in Osgiliath and Minas Tirith. Guarding the coasts, sailors or blocking delaying Haradrims and easterlings. Also those numbers can be difficult as not anyone in the retinues are not all combatants either of it considers only the combatants the number would be higher. As the knights will have servants and squires. Also cities should have any sort of militia or armed citizens good to help making the walls but not apt for offensive operations. So may be 30000 is a good estimate. As King Eleassar Gondorian expansion should have had some "muscle" to beat Haradrims, Dunledins, Corsairs and Black numenoreans. As they should not have had committed all their forces in the war of the Ring

[@vonbennett8670]

The number 7,900 seems like the better estimation of the size of Gondor's army. If I remember the movie correctly, Rohan departed for Minas Tirith with only 6,000 riders, half of what was expected to be available. Minas Tirith itself probably only had a few thousand defenders at best (probably much less) and that is why they were overwhelmed so easily. My take on it was that both Gondor and Rohan neglected their armies (for different reasons) to a point that when war actually came to their lands, they were totally unprepared and were totally out matched.

[@lordsofarnor4128]

Interesting thought, I will say that when I read appendix A in the Lord of the Rings I personally get the sense that Gondor was always prepared for war it’s just the kingdom’s strength of arms was gradually growing weaker and weaker to the point that by the Lord of the Rings they could gather several thousand to Minas Tirith

[@songogan]

In the book it says that the fiefs sent less than 3000 men, 10% of their capacity, so to join with the guards who were in minas tirith and in the garrisons of the river anduin, there must be around 30 thousand

[@josepnebotrius872]

Well both countries were not weak but Gondor had been worn for constant war. I don't think that the Palantir's influence on Denethor or Grima influence on Theoden could had been so important to left them unready for war.

[@tSp289]

Yes, but if you go by the movie, then Gondor also had no farmland and Mordor was a 20 minute walk away.

[@blackfalcon1324]

Are we talking about just at minas tirith or the entire kingdom? If it is the entire kindom they surely have way more than 8,000, much closer to 20 or 30000. Minas tirith wasnt the only battle gondor was fighting.

[@pst675]

Fucking loved your video man. Thanks!

[@lordsofarnor4128]

Thank you

[@MrSnapy1]

Middle age numbers sounds about right nice breakdown! In the movies looked like a tiny garrison was in the city always annoyed me.

[@Synthetic-Rabbit]

Nice video. One thing that always kind of bothered me a little bit about the movies (particularly Return of the King) is how normal Orcs will get onto the wall and fight and kill multiple Gondorians. Aren't men of Gondor supposed to be like 7' tall and much stronger than a "normal human in our world"? Orcs would definitely have the numbers but I feel like a single soldier from Gondor would be equal to at least 5 Orcs?

[@lordsofarnor4128]

You’re one hundred percent correct in the movies the orcs take the river, Osgiliath, and the fields of pelennor in what seems like 2 hours compared to the books where faramir who is still impossibly outnumbered holds them off for nearly 3 days. But that’s just Hollywood tension to make the ride of the rohirrim all the more grand which it’s already a very grand moment don’t think you need to add to it by making Gondorians just cannon fodder

[@Proph3t3N]

Wasn't numenorian blood in Gondorians severly weakened, due to mixing with non-numenorians that lived on middle earth and losing their ways? I vaguely recall that they slowly reclaimed their longevity and strenght with Aragorn becoming a king. Or was it only him, that lived long due to him being such a good king? Either way, they were still stronger than men, but nowhere near their prime. Might be wrong tho, read books 10 years+ ago :)

[@Synthetic-Rabbit]

Weakened but not completely gone. There's a passage in the book when they're going through the maintains and there's snow that's piled up above their heads and Aragorn and Boromir lead the group just plowing through the snow using their bodies. @@Proph3t3N

[@RJALEXANDER777]

Gondorians only had a fraction of Numenorean heritage as they'd intermingled with other humans over hundreds of generations, but they still would've been noticeably taller and more broadly built than typical medieval folk. Plus Gondor seems to have idealised agriculture for a Medieval civilisation, no one's suffering from childhood malnutrition issues or growing up weaker than they should. I wouldn't be surprised if the average height in Gondor was a little above six foot. And they'd be a little longer-lived and healthier than normal humans. So by real-life medieval standards Gondorian soldiers would've been very formidable, but not really out of place by modern standards.

[@RobiFM90]

Great video

[@VashTheStampede4K]

In my opinion, maybe 9,000 or 10,000 men in total when Boromir was alive, before he went to Rivendell (without counting Rohan's army). When Ecthelion II (the father of Denethor) was alive, I think 18,000 or 20,000 men in total. Gondor was weak compared to the ancient times: Elendil with maybe 40,000 or 50,000 men in total at the Battle of Dagorlad, and King Ar-Pharazôn of Númenor with a huge army of men. I'm not sure. Only Tolkien knew the numbers exactly.

[@lordsofarnor4128]

True but that won’t stop us fans and nerds from trying to find out

[@VashTheStampede4K]

@@fatalpies3896 I don't know. Only J. R. R. Tolkien knew the exact size of the armies. I can only hypothesize, like all the others.

[@theenragedklingon5099]

Hey, thanks for doing this. I’m going to say it takes some time to do this and I find your dedication impressive.. Did you go through Tolkiens Letters and the unfinished tales for hints? One final point regarding; I would like to point out that Tolkien served in the military during WWI and would have been very familiar with the size of a UK company. My opinion on the topic is that he likely used this as his model for 1his organization in the LOTR. A company is today what it was 109 years at the onset of the war in 1914, and that is 100 to 150; depending on the branch, designation, duty, etc.

[@lordsofarnor4128]

That was the thing I most struggled with was the company and I do think that Tolkien would’ve had the company be similar to the company size he served with.

[@ninthshade7375]

@@lordsofarnor4128 I imagine an in-lore company might vary depending on its purpose, just like IRL. A Ranger company intended to operate alone, far from supply, living off the land, conducting independent actions, etc might be over-strength - twice or more the size - relative to a line company fighting in pitched battle at Osgiliath or Minas Tirith. Similarly the Tower Guard might be over-strength since it's a prestigious formation with specific history & function.

[@lordsofarnor4128]

Good point definitely one I should have brought up in the video

[@robhenry4616]

My reading was not that those Lords providing what soldiers they could spare were all there was. Every single fighting-age farmer of Pelennor Fields would be now within the protective walls of Minas Tirith. Are we meant to imagine that they would be twiddling their thumbs waiting to die, or being trained for battle while the city blacksmiths work overtime? Or were you just examining the professional portion of the army?

[@lordsofarnor4128]

I was more looking at the direct numbers Tolkien gave us which is what I mention in the beginning of the video. As for my speculation at the end my number was determined more by what I considered soldiers before the war and not the farmers/villagers that were probably recruited into the army.

[@rebeccaorman1823]

Gondor is a large country encompassing more than just the land around Minis Tirith. The people in the general area were probably in the city and helped with the fighting. However, those who lived further away probably held back for attacks in their atea.

[@theindooroutdoorsman]

20-30k is about what sounds right for professional soldiers across the entire kingdom.

[@DutchGuyMike]

For Gondor!

[@ahrisss]

In the movies they said Osgiliath garnison was 500 men.

[@raidensergi2378]

No, they said that they moved 500 men to reinforce Cair Andros. Osgiliath concentrated the maximun of gondors army. Minas tirith was defended by 3000 men. Minas tirith also reinforced 1500 men when the beacons of lights that came from near south South of Gondor, has several thousands because denethor thaught that corsairs could attack them. Fort of ramas echor, situated between osgiliath and minas tirith had 200men, this men, were chosen in order to have an emergency troops for osgiliath. And osgiliath, can be said that concentrated the majority of troops. Because, the city was selected as strategic point. At the peak of troops Boromir expelled Mordor troops from the east part avoiding orcs to have a base and helped the ithilien Ranger to send supplies.

[@hariseldon3786]

How big? Most were only about 5'7" and about 80kgs...

[@bleekskaduwee6762]

I would revise your strength of a company numbers, a company is closer to 100 than 300. My company in the army was about 135.900 citadel guards is pushing it, didn't each one have a mithril helm,I don't think that they had 900 mithril helm just sitting around for these guys

[@lordsofarnor4128]

You probably are right and that’s what I debated on when writing out this video was whether or not 300 is too big, which it probably is but seeing how the Ithilien Rangers are frequently called a company I went with the 300 that Sam says to have seen in the Two Towers. But I do admit that every company most likely did not have 300 troops in it

[@rebeccaorman1823]

When a man went off duty he would have stored his equipment in army stores. Therefore, they only need helmets for the number of guards actually on duty at one time.

[@helvis7336]

Cleary not big enough.

[@lordsofarnor4128]

Haha

[@Powerhaus88]

But what about the droid attack on the wookies?!