How Blade Runner (1982) Treats Consent

[@henriquequadros5874]

Great video. In my point of view (and in yours as well) that scene is, above all, a question more than a statement. People approach it as if it was a statement, which is a massively superficial way of looking at the text. Films can present many questions and attacking specific moments of the narrative as if they represent something in and of themselves is poor form of film analysis, in my opinion. Great handling of the topic, congrats

[@red-qd2mn]

theres probably millions of video essays on this movie and im glad youve approached a key topic in it people still seem to not to be able to talk about well enough. youre always bringing out the freshest ideas out here and just get better & better at giving them!

[@PurpleHippoCinema]

I think you hit the nail of the head when talking about the stereotype originating in film noir especially because as Blade Runner was meant to be a sci fi futuristic film noir. Excellent observation

[@Glassandcandy]

“It could be read as forced acquiescence” That’s sounds like something an intellectual would say to desperately describe what they did as anything but rape by hiding behind learned semantics. I mean that phrase can be simplified as “forced consent” which, obviously, is an oxymoron. You can’t force consent, consent isn intransitive action, it can be given but by definition never taken. I respect the attempt at an alternative and more charitable reading, but if I’m being honest the scene in question is so blatantly a rape scene that it makes “straw dogs” look ambiguous by comparison. Deckard kisses her, she freezes, immediately tries to flee, he rebukes her with a display of violence, traps her and then forces her to kiss him, in effect forcing her into a situation that he could exploit later (ie “I didn’t rape you, you kissed ME. You admitted that you wanted it when you did that!”) I mean she’s visibly shaking and crying throughout the entire scene. Afterwards we don’t get her perspective on the scene. In fact she basically stops being a character one way or the other; once she is sexually “taken” her arc in the story is complete and she fades into the background as we follow the primary story which is about two men: deckard and batty. Her role in the story and it’s themes do not extend farther than her relationship to the men in her life; first tyrell and then deckard. Also pretty much everyone who worked on the movie recognized that it came out this way, regardless of Ridley’s original intention for the scene. It was so difficult to shoot for the both of them that the actress had a breakdown afterwards and Scott himself said he regretted how violent it came out. Whether intended to be one or not, what the film gives is a rape.

[@vicentebarahona4999]

Definetely the best analysis i have ever seen regarding this scene and this movie. Stunning work.

[@styleissubstance]

Thanks for watching!

[@astrosticks]

I think your analysis is helpful in understanding why the scene is important in a thematic sense to the film. However after looking at this I still don't feel any better about how the scene is framed. If the music chosen had been more intense/scary than the romantic jazzy sax used in the final cut (only one I've seen), I think the intentions of the filmmakers would be read differently by a lot of viewers. This applies, really, for most other elements of the scene, too. Framing is an artistic choice, but is also one of the most morally implicating artistic choices for a filmmaker to make.

[@Turtleproof]

I think Raechel's fear is from her complete inexperience with intimacy and being overwhelmed by budding emotions she has never felt. Whereas it would be demeaning to treat a human woman like a child, Raechel actually needs instructions because she has zero knowledge of how to do it.

[@styleissubstance]

That is what Sean Young was saying in the interview I sampled. However, I suppose that still doesn't rectify Deckard too much, considering he *could* be seen as something of a child predator... potentially. So many ways to look at it.

[@Turtleproof]

@@styleissubstance Right! I need to stop commenting before the video is over, I realized my words became redundant when that part of the video hit. I feel like Deckard's anger could be interpreted in a few ways: is he angry at himself for being attracted to a Replicant, that he didn't realize sooner that murdering them was wrong, for not recognizing their humanity? Then again, he still carries out the contract against Roy.

[@vincentdc211]

@@styleissubstance The most inaccurate observation of Deckard yet with that comment.

[@styleissubstance]

@@vincentdc211 Young is the one to compare her character to a child.

[@TheFifaBaouss]

great video the main thing that confuses me about this whole debate is how people perceive Deckard to be framed as a hero when previously in the film humans have been depicted under a very cynical light, also I feel it is an essential scene to convey the helplessness Rachael feels in the post-apocalyptic world - by holding onto Deckard she is guaranteed a way of escape from inevitable retirement

[@DutchKC9UOD]

Great Review of a once beautiful scene, the music in this movie sets the tone for everything!

[@samlerf]

Who's the Creep and Who's Not! (Star Wars edition) 2/2 In their first scene alone together, they both engage in a bit of emotional venting - Padmé, about being forced into hiding, and Anakin about the fact that he's advancing beyond his master's abilities. Having shared this sort of mutual frustration, Anakin ventures into a bit of flirtation. "Try not to grow up too fast," Padmé says, and he stands to his full height, gazing into her face. "But I am grown up." Is this a little too aggressive? You could argue that. But note Padmé's response, and more importantly Anakin's reaction. "Stop that. It makes me feel uncomfortable." Padmé, probably having suffered more than a few unwanted flirtations in her past, knows how to be direct and unequivocal. And Anakin responds, "Sorry, milady." One could say that the little smile on his face reveals he's not that sorry to find out he can get under Padmé's skin....but he backs off. On the transport, they share another heartfelt conversation, and Anakin tentatively tries some more flirting. This one is more subtle, speaking more generally of a Jedi having a relationship, though no one could doubt his meaning. "You might say that we are encouraged to love." Padmé responds this time somewhat vaguely. "You've changed so much." Somewhat emboldened, Anakin replies "You haven't changed a bit. You're exactly the way I remember you in my dreams." Whoops. He's gone too far, and Padmé doesn't even have to say anything. Her wary expression stops Anakin, and he backs off again. Would Anakin's behavior be more acceptable if he backed off entirely? Maybe. But let's keep in mind that most of his mild-mannered flirting comes along after they've shared a friendly moment and she's responded encouragingly. She shows every sign of enjoying his company, and even when she doesn't respond favorably to his overtures, she doesn't tell him to get lost. Would it have been more romantic if she replied with snarky insults and he shot back a few of his own, and then they fell on each other in unrestrained passion? Not for me. I guess I have different tastes. :P They have an interesting exchange in the capital, when they have a brief argument about who's in charge and who should make the decisions. Anakin, whose infamous anger problems will eventually contribute to his downfall, is actually able to swallow his irritation, nod and step back. Not a romantic context, but definitely a sign that he has self-control and a respect for Padmé's wishes. Following this I could mention the deleted scenes at Padmé's home, which I wish could have been included for the additional information they offer about Padmé's background, her family and her long-time devotion to helping others. There's also a few nudges in the direction of Anakin and Padmé's growing feelings for each other. But whether they can be considered canon or not, the next significant overture from Anakin happens with their first kiss. So let's move along there. The dialogue in this scene is almost irrelevant. I know Anakin's lines have been much maligned (and usually mis-quoted) but the main point is, Padmé is reliving a happy time from her youth, one that is fraught with sensory pleasures, and Anakin is contrasting it with his own rough childhood, leading into his deep admiration for Naboo and, by extension, Padmé. It's not very eloquent, but who cares. Look at their body language. They're walking side by side, close but not touching, comfortable in their space. They stop, look out over the water, look at each other. Anakin's gaze deepens, as a sort of non-verbal question. Padmé responds similarly. Anakin ventures a light touch, and again she responds favorably. With every step forward toward the kiss, he makes an overture, waits and only moves ahead when she shows her approval. He doesn't push her up against a wall and pin her there; he gives her every opportunity to escape, to resist, to refuse to go further. I suppose he could have outright asked, "Is it all right if I kiss you?" but maybe that would have burst most people's romantic bubbles. (True story - that's what happened with my first kiss, and it was romantic, and I married him, dear Reader.) Then Padmé has second thoughts. Totally understandable. She's been at war between her emotions and her logic for a while, and when she says, "No, I shouldn't have done that," Anakin steps back and apologizes, even though you couldn't quite blame him for getting mixed signals. He doesn't grin and say, "We don't have time for anything else" or "You're trembling; what are you afraid of?" Just says sorry and backs off. At the picnic, their conversation indicates they're still on friendly terms. They have an intriguing exchange about politics, but mostly they laugh, they tease each other, and engage in some pretty intense physical contact (rolling around in a field, ahem) that they clearly both enjoy. At dinner, they share another friendly conversation, this one just a little more flirty. Once more emboldened, Anakin shows off his levitation skills and even acknowledges that he's breaking a few rules that Obi-Wan has set. Padmé laughs and accepts the fruit he's floated over to her, something that could be fraught with all sorts of symbolism about accepting the forbidden fruit. On a basic, more literal level, however, it's enough that she's accepting his offer of having a little fun, rules be darned. They've been dancing back and forth for a while, and if nothing else it would appear that she enjoys the dance, and she likes him as her partner. But Anakin has grown tired of the dance. And it's the fireplace scene that probably ventures the closest to stalker territory; I fully acknowledge that. He lays his feelings bare, and he's a little brutal. "The kiss you never should have given me." Well, that wasn't a one-person deed, buddy. Fortunately, he doesn't really veer into blaming all his behavior on Padmé's irresistible allure. There's been a lot of talk about the dress Padmé is wearing in this scene and whether she was unconsciously or even fully consciously trying to send a message - but that's a little too close to the "what was she wearing when it happened?" line of questioning that happens to assault victims. Ugh. No thank you. Whatever Padmé's wearing, Anakin is still responsible for his own choices. And it's what happens after he's poured out his desperate, uncontrolled declaration that shows what choice he makes. Padmé says no. She even admits she has feelings, but she says no. He tries to suggest an alternative - "We could keep it a secret" - but she doesn't want that. And he accepts it. Unhappily, but he accepts it. So how many romantic overtures does Anakin make after Padmé definitely says no? NONE. Even when he's emotionally raw, when his nightmares drive him to desperation and Padmé insists on coming along, when he gives into the darkest side of himself and sinks into self-hating misery in the aftermath, when Padmé comforts him and tells him he's still human - at no point during any of these interactions does Anakin hint at romantic feelings or desires. They even have a somewhat playful exchange when they go to rescue Obi-Wan, but he doesn't press her into anything beyond that. Padmé has set a boundary, and he does not cross it. She crosses it instead, which it is within her right to do. Faced with death, she decides her objections don't matter and allows her emotions to guide her rather than logic. Is this a foolish choice? Does it ultimately lead to her death and Anakin's downfall? Those are really questions for another discussion. The point here is, Anakin's behavior does not constitute that of a stalker in any significant way, while Han's behavior does. And that's my mind-bending conclusion for the day.

[@akiramontecillo2420]

Humn..now I understand perfectly why I couldn't get on with the Leyla+Han thing people were raving about, and why I was Soo into Padme+Anakin romance hence people were criticising so much. I didn't understand myself then, I thought I was just being weird. Thanks for clearing things out for me...:3

[@peterharris38]

My take is that both Rachel and Dek are aware of who/what they are, as described by the police chief they have a built in lifespan because they will develop true emotions based on personal experience. Deckard is an immature boy whose libido is kicking in making him angry and confused by the situation as he doesn't have real life moments to give him guidance. And Rachel is the same even she has 'memories' there is no evidence of her sexuality prior to this scene.

[@youtuber5305]

If replicants are programmed to obey/please their masters/humans, then shouldn't Rachel have NOT resisted Deckard's advances?

[@MidwesternHooligans]

Wow, I hope "Smooth talk" 1985 shows up in one of your video!

[@culichi]

id love to see a video on that as well

[@DeathAlchemist]

Interesting take on this scene, that I did not view from this. Also, liked how you integrated video response into this essay, without directly stating this video was a response to a specific person, but rather the idea itself. I feel when a trope is called problematic it makes the discussion around such tropes troublesome because polarizes the discussion and makes it more heated. This is unfortunate because media criticism lives off of discussion and by extension disagreement. Side note, notice how the female replicants are kind of portrayed as dolls in death (with plastic on the first one and the second one wearing makeup with a skin-tight suit) compared raechel. Shows how Deckard views them compared to her.

[@asr9299]

awesome video 10/10

[@Каска-колбаска]

Wait, did anyone really complain about this scene? I agree that any piece of artwork should raise the questions, but for me it already looks like nitpicking without trying to understand what is happening on the screen. By the way, I remember that you mentioned directors who are subject to dishonest criticism based only on their own interests and desires, can you include Ridley Scott as well? Because I consider Prometheus on par with the original Alien and Covenant which in my opinion is not as bad as they say, at least only Ridley is interested in developing lore for the universe, unlike Cameron who reduced everything to the concept of a beehive with a queen, or the studio that drove the third part into production hell and the fourth is more like a comedy to me, not the worst movie for me but I don’t consider it anything related to the franchise

[@styleissubstance]

Hmm I'm not sure. I haven't really seen such an aggressive attack on Ridley Scott. I think people's reception to the movies have just been mixed. I think the Alien sequels may get too much unwarranted hate but I don't really see Scott get villainized like I do some other people. This scene has received some scrutiny in recent years for sure. I think people are becoming more cognizant of power dynamics.

[@Каска-колбаска]

@@styleissubstance Unfortunately Ridley Scott is very much disliked and even insulted in my country by people who make stupid claims that he is too old to be a director, calling him crazy and a fraud because of his last few films of the Alien franchise, all "criticism" is based on irrational behavior of the characters, while they do not pay attention to everything else in these films. What I find funny is that they like Aliens, which is the most uninteresting film and which in no way continues or develops the motives and ideas of the original film

[@nickletchford]

This is correct by all accounts … I would add that force he uses is present in the scene because he is treating her as a replicant. His action is saying angrily .. ok, so you don’t believe your ‘self’ exists anymore, you think you’re nothing now, that your feelings are false..well fck you, this is how it feels to be nothing…does that feel like you are nothing ..?! Or does what you feel right now feel very much real ….understand? You feel… you are YOU, now ‘YOU’ kiss me … YOU want me. This entire moment is as you assert about him saving by centring her and having her accept that she is as real as anyone Human, follows Deckard’s epiphany and metaphorical baptism where he dunks his head in water. He realises they are the same, they are both ‘the business’ . The idea that it is always wrong for a man to peruse a woman following nuanced rejection is very troubling . Or course violence, coercion, threats etc are morally wrong but the idea that Han Solo or Sam Spade are automatically classified as sexual harassers or rapists is ironically inhuman

[@steamboatwill3.367]

no, that's just gross.

[@Glassandcandy]

What you just described in your comment about him forcing himself on her to convince her essentially boils down to a man raping a woman “for her own good”. That’s pretty fucking disgusting and the fact that you thought this up in the way you did and didn’t think it was a problem is a big red flag honestly. I’m not trying to be snarky and rude, I genuinely mean this with compassion and empathy: please reevaluate your understanding of what healthy sexual boundaries are and where lines of consent are drawn. I’ve literally heard actual rapists convicted of rape try to justify themselves using logic scarily similar to what you wrote here. This is a moment to pause and self reflect, m8.

[@steamboatwill3.367]

- No, she objected and was FORCED to consent, sorry, your video did not change anything, i'll give you credit for not litteraly arguing FOR sexual assualt, but there should have been more objection. - I stand with Jon, "ambiguity" shouldn't cloud the obvious and it only becomes frustrating, another example with this is "Goodfellas", it tries too hard to make us root for violent mobsters and the narration only makes it worse, "Casino" is better with this and doesn't force sympathy on the characters, it's weird how Scorsese breaks his own rules "show, don't tell"/not "sentimental" ( whatever that means ), ok I went of the topic. - Deckard is still framed as the "good guy", mainly because he is the protagonist, Scott didn't do a good job of portraying him as ambiguous, Ford is also really misscast, someone like Robert Mitchum would've fit the role much better. - odd that Ford doesn't care as much for him cause Han really is more complex and really changed through out the films ( don't give me the "he didn't do anything in ROTJ" argument, cause that's were he had fully matured ) - it still reinforces sexist stereotypes by women not being allowed to wield power, still being abused and dominated by men and forced into "love" ( Wich it really isn't at this point, but it's always framed as a good thing ), it's always like her choice is already made for her or she has to do it, not for herself but FOR someone else ( Wich isn't selfless or brave in these examples ). EDIT: - have to add, the film answers the "question" by showing them running away TOGETHER. One thing to note about Han and Leia, There's a deleted shot where Leia says "Ok hotshot" wich would have remedy the scene, no idea why it was cut ( not even reinserted in a special edition ).

[@styleissubstance]

Well, I did say multiple times there is plenty room for objection, especially to Deckard's actions. It is likely to be reasonably read as forced acquiesce rather than organic consent. All the wiggle room offered in this video is offered by the film itself and I'm merely pointing that out. I do think the question is a bit more nuanced than you lead on. I guess the issue is that the context has little positive applicability to the real world. I really don't personally think that's the appropriate way to look at this film or Goodfellas, provided how much the films condemn their own protagonists. I value ambiguity in works for adults; I value the room for questions and objections offered through unreliable narration. No, the protagonists in these cases are not the heroes. But... as I state in the video, audiences can still naively take them as such, so maybe it could be an issue. I just don't think it's very productive. I think Ford simply grew tired of the role and how much he was associated with the franchise. I can sort of see that argument... sort of. I posit that the femme fatale trope can be seen as both feminist and sexist. Blade Runner runs with the notion that it's sexist, and subverts it accordingly. However, if we view it as feminist, the subversion could be seen as regressive, I assume. I think in the end, Rachael IS meant to be framed as liberating herself in this scene and confronting what she wants, but... That doesn't strip the context of objectionable associations.

[@nope5657]

Do yourself a favor. Stop watching movies. How you can even begin to think that's Goodfellas is doing is beyond me.

[@steamboatwill3.367]

@@nope5657 ) ? Could you please elaborate?

[@steamboatwill3.367]

@@styleissubstance ) late reply but I don't support your argument about "ambiguity in works for adults" and I don't understand what there is to "value". If anything "works for adults" tend to be extremely immature and idiotic because of that ( granted that's often with comedies but it still applies ). The fact that "kids films" are actually more intelligent and mature is surprising and welcoming. And there's isn't any actual ambiguity because the film still refrains to the status quo roles of having Ford be the "hero" ( the actions don't change the framing of the story, didn't you say that about this scene? )

[@styleissubstance]

@@steamboatwill3.367 basically I believe adults should strive for art literacy and be able to look at a story, internalize it, and interpret it for themselves. I think a filmmaker like Spike Lee for instance would agree in that he would rather have a film open up dialog in real life instead of simply telling you how to think. Although you are also right that adults can be pretty stupid and immature too, so it's not like I completely disagree. Kids films, in contrast, I think should be grounded to culturally accepted morals and narrative tropes as it's best for their development. For this reason, I think the aforementioned scene in Empire Strikes Back is deserving of criticism. No, I really, really don't view Deckard as the hero by any measure. Just as I don't view Travis Bickle as the hero in Taxi Driver- actually, I view Deckard as less of the hero in their respective stories. However, I do think this scene I discuss in my video is so vague that it is arguably a detriment to the film, although it makes for an interesting case study. My main goal here is looking at the sequence from different perspectives to parce out thematic/narrative purpose and confront objectionable real-world implications as there definitely is an incongruity in perspectives in popular discourse.

[@samlerf]

And now it's time to play.....Who's the Creep and Who's Not! (Star Wars edition) 1/2 It's been a while, hasn't it? I've started a Wordpress page for my writer persona, and post writing-related stuff there in the hopes that if anyone (literary agents, theoretically) Googles my name, they'll find something better than my Facebook profile. So my brain's kind of been occupied with that, not to mention our move to a new house (hooray!) I spent the last few days making about a thousand phone calls to several school departments to figure out why Luke's records seemed to have disappeared and he wasn't getting all the services he needed. Blech, blech, blech. Well, all that aside, I've had this idea for a post floating around my head for some time now, and though it's not strictly in the same category as other SAHF musings, it's still rather pertinent. Also, it's about my original and favorite fandom. What is appropriate behavior, and what is not, in the two romance stories from the Star Wars saga? All right; here's my big old preface before I get to the specific discussion. Appropriate behaviors in the relationships between genders. I've had this difficult topic on my mind a lot lately, because one of my favorite new authors I follow is also a staunch advocate of protecting people from assault and providing them with support if they've already been assaulted. There's frequent discussions on his blog about the furor that arises whenever someone behaves inappropriately at fan conventions, the victim speaks out, and consequences follow. All too often there's victim-blaming, excuses made for appalling behavior, and greater concern about hurting the feelings of the accused rather than protecting the innocent. It's a big old mess. We live in a peculiar culture. Judging from the average romantic comedy, a man who persists and persists in wooing his love against all her protests is swoon-worthy. In real life, most of his behaviors would fall firmly in the stalker category. But the romantic quality of the story, supposedly, comes from the assumption that the woman secretly does want him, and she just needs to be worn down or come out of denial or let go of her inhibitions or some such. Okay. But what if she genuinely doesn't want him? In real life, that's the case more often than not. Romance movies want to teach us otherwise, and if we buy into that, it can lead to misunderstandings, missed signals, aggressive unwanted advances, and straight-up assault. Just kind of sucks all the romance out of everything, doesn't it? Well.... I've always loved the Han and Leia relationship, really I have. Two intensely strong-willed people, drawn to each other but resisting it because they're used to being independent and not giving into anything. A couple that eventually forms a bond so strong, she descends into the depths, Orpheus-like, to rescue him from what is essentially death and brings him back to life. So strong, that he's willing to let her go off with the man he thinks she loves rather than selfishly keep her for himself. However. There's just no way around it. Han's pursuit of Leia, objectively, bears all the signs of creepy stalkerism. Most of it occurs in Episode V, but let's briefly consider his behavior in Episode IV. He's basically a misogynist, insulting her in sexist terms (even though she's contributed as much if not more to their successful escape than he has.) Of course this was in the Shameful Seventies - I doubt such lines as "if we just avoid any more female advice" would be put in the mouth of a hero nowadays - but it's somewhat troubling, at least. You could argue that Han outgrows some of his less than savory characteristics by the time he's spent a few years serving in the Rebellion. In Episode V, it does seem like some of his rougher edges have been smoothed. And you can't blame him too much for engaging in insult contests with Leia, because she dishes them out as readily as he does. Still, from the beginning of the movie he's making hints that she has feelings for him, and her responses are unequivocal. "I don't know what you're talking about." "You're imagining things." "I'd just as soon kiss a Wookiee." "I guess you don't know everything about women yet." Hmm. Does that mean "yes" or "no"? I just can't figure it out. :P Of course we as the audience know better. We know, from the hundreds of romantic pairings we've seen, that the lady doth protest too much. We can practically see the tension sizzling between the two of them, right? Okay, very true. But that doesn't give Han the right to keep pressing her. If she says no, he has to take that at face value. He can argue that she's in denial, and that may be true, but if he wants to be decent he's going to have to find a different, non-aggressive way to woo her. Treat her well. Respect her vocal wishes, even if he suspects she's lying. Give her space, physically and emotionally. Does this not sound nearly as romantic as what Han does instead? Sigh. That may be. We may have the notion ingrained in our minds that an aggressive, won't-take-no-for-an-answer kind of guy is the ideal lover. But in real life, he's not. Han engages in unrequested physical contact and teases her. "We don't have time for anything else." "My hands are dirty too; what are you afraid of?" Let me be clear - these are the lines I repeated all the time after frequent rewatches of the trilogy, the swoon-worthy, roguish lines that fed my crush on Han Solo/Harrison Ford in earlier times. (Now I have a crush on Luke, which is far healthier, I assure you.) But I have to squirm when I realize how really inappropriate he was being. If Leia had not, in fact, reciprocated his feelings, he would have been in big trouble. I suppose after she responds favorably to that first kiss, things shift, and his behavior afterwards isn't particularly stalkery. But only because Leia, like most sharp-tongued female characters who resist the initial wooing, actually does want to get close and personal with Han. Change that one element, switch out the sweeping romantic John Williams score with something sinister, and you've got a stalker movie. Actually, you can do that with almost every romantic comedy. That's telling. Let's contrast this with the other romance in Star Wars, the one that's been criticized for everything from wooden acting and lack of chemistry to, yes, stalker behavior on Anakin's part. Well, guess what? Next to Han, Anakin is a model gentleman. That's right. The heroic general could take lessons in wooing from the future Sith Lord. Anakin's behavior toward Padmé bears no trace of abuse until the third film, when his corruption to the Dark Side leads to emotional and eventually physical assault. But their courtship has none of this. Let's have a look. When they first meet as adults, Anakin's crush is painfully obvious to pretty much everyone. He doesn't take too much trouble to hide it from Obi-Wan. "I'd rather dream of Padmé. Just being around her is...intoxicating." So he's not doing so well with that controlling his emotions thing the Jedi keep pestering him about. And yet he does, in fact, curb his impulses when he's around her. (Let's not also forget that he's been harboring this crush for ten years, but he hasn't been trying to meet her, sending her creepy letters, or any of the usual behaviors of stalkers. Both for her own personal space, and in adherence to Jedi regulations, he hasn't sought her out, but waited until he was assigned to be her bodyguard.)

[@samlerf]

2/2 In their first scene alone together, they both engage in a bit of emotional venting - Padmé, about being forced into hiding, and Anakin about the fact that he's advancing beyond his master's abilities. Having shared this sort of mutual frustration, Anakin ventures into a bit of flirtation. "Try not to grow up too fast," Padmé says, and he stands to his full height, gazing into her face. "But I am grown up." Is this a little too aggressive? You could argue that. But note Padmé's response, and more importantly Anakin's reaction. "Stop that. It makes me feel uncomfortable." Padmé, probably having suffered more than a few unwanted flirtations in her past, knows how to be direct and unequivocal. And Anakin responds, "Sorry, milady." One could say that the little smile on his face reveals he's not that sorry to find out he can get under Padmé's skin....but he backs off. On the transport, they share another heartfelt conversation, and Anakin tentatively tries some more flirting. This one is more subtle, speaking more generally of a Jedi having a relationship, though no one could doubt his meaning. "You might say that we are encouraged to love." Padmé responds this time somewhat vaguely. "You've changed so much." Somewhat emboldened, Anakin replies "You haven't changed a bit. You're exactly the way I remember you in my dreams." Whoops. He's gone too far, and Padmé doesn't even have to say anything. Her wary expression stops Anakin, and he backs off again. Would Anakin's behavior be more acceptable if he backed off entirely? Maybe. But let's keep in mind that most of his mild-mannered flirting comes along after they've shared a friendly moment and she's responded encouragingly. She shows every sign of enjoying his company, and even when she doesn't respond favorably to his overtures, she doesn't tell him to get lost. Would it have been more romantic if she replied with snarky insults and he shot back a few of his own, and then they fell on each other in unrestrained passion? Not for me. I guess I have different tastes. :P They have an interesting exchange in the capital, when they have a brief argument about who's in charge and who should make the decisions. Anakin, whose infamous anger problems will eventually contribute to his downfall, is actually able to swallow his irritation, nod and step back. Not a romantic context, but definitely a sign that he has self-control and a respect for Padmé's wishes. Following this I could mention the deleted scenes at Padmé's home, which I wish could have been included for the additional information they offer about Padmé's background, her family and her long-time devotion to helping others. There's also a few nudges in the direction of Anakin and Padmé's growing feelings for each other. But whether they can be considered canon or not, the next significant overture from Anakin happens with their first kiss. So let's move along there. The dialogue in this scene is almost irrelevant. I know Anakin's lines have been much maligned (and usually mis-quoted) but the main point is, Padmé is reliving a happy time from her youth, one that is fraught with sensory pleasures, and Anakin is contrasting it with his own rough childhood, leading into his deep admiration for Naboo and, by extension, Padmé. It's not very eloquent, but who cares. Look at their body language. They're walking side by side, close but not touching, comfortable in their space. They stop, look out over the water, look at each other. Anakin's gaze deepens, as a sort of non-verbal question. Padmé responds similarly. Anakin ventures a light touch, and again she responds favorably. With every step forward toward the kiss, he makes an overture, waits and only moves ahead when she shows her approval. He doesn't push her up against a wall and pin her there; he gives her every opportunity to escape, to resist, to refuse to go further. I suppose he could have outright asked, "Is it all right if I kiss you?" but maybe that would have burst most people's romantic bubbles. (True story - that's what happened with my first kiss, and it was romantic, and I married him, dear Reader.) Then Padmé has second thoughts. Totally understandable. She's been at war between her emotions and her logic for a while, and when she says, "No, I shouldn't have done that," Anakin steps back and apologizes, even though you couldn't quite blame him for getting mixed signals. He doesn't grin and say, "We don't have time for anything else" or "You're trembling; what are you afraid of?" Just says sorry and backs off. At the picnic, their conversation indicates they're still on friendly terms. They have an intriguing exchange about politics, but mostly they laugh, they tease each other, and engage in some pretty intense physical contact (rolling around in a field, ahem) that they clearly both enjoy. At dinner, they share another friendly conversation, this one just a little more flirty. Once more emboldened, Anakin shows off his levitation skills and even acknowledges that he's breaking a few rules that Obi-Wan has set. Padmé laughs and accepts the fruit he's floated over to her, something that could be fraught with all sorts of symbolism about accepting the forbidden fruit. On a basic, more literal level, however, it's enough that she's accepting his offer of having a little fun, rules be darned. They've been dancing back and forth for a while, and if nothing else it would appear that she enjoys the dance, and she likes him as her partner. But Anakin has grown tired of the dance. And it's the fireplace scene that probably ventures the closest to stalker territory; I fully acknowledge that. He lays his feelings bare, and he's a little brutal. "The kiss you never should have given me." Well, that wasn't a one-person deed, buddy. Fortunately, he doesn't really veer into blaming all his behavior on Padmé's irresistible allure. There's been a lot of talk about the dress Padmé is wearing in this scene and whether she was unconsciously or even fully consciously trying to send a message - but that's a little too close to the "what was she wearing when it happened?" line of questioning that happens to assault victims. Ugh. No thank you. Whatever Padmé's wearing, Anakin is still responsible for his own choices. And it's what happens after he's poured out his desperate, uncontrolled declaration that shows what choice he makes. Padmé says no. She even admits she has feelings, but she says no. He tries to suggest an alternative - "We could keep it a secret" - but she doesn't want that. And he accepts it. Unhappily, but he accepts it. So how many romantic overtures does Anakin make after Padmé definitely says no? NONE. Even when he's emotionally raw, when his nightmares drive him to desperation and Padmé insists on coming along, when he gives into the darkest side of himself and sinks into self-hating misery in the aftermath, when Padmé comforts him and tells him he's still human - at no point during any of these interactions does Anakin hint at romantic feelings or desires. They even have a somewhat playful exchange when they go to rescue Obi-Wan, but he doesn't press her into anything beyond that. Padmé has set a boundary, and he does not cross it. She crosses it instead, which it is within her right to do. Faced with death, she decides her objections don't matter and allows her emotions to guide her rather than logic. Is this a foolish choice? Does it ultimately lead to her death and Anakin's downfall? Those are really questions for another discussion. The point here is, Anakin's behavior does not constitute that of a stalker in any significant way, while Han's behavior does. And that's my mind-bending conclusion for the day.

[@styleissubstance]

I'm going to have to read through all this again when I write my Attack of the Clones video. It seems that we are on the same page. I think both love stories in the series need a closer look. In this video, I just briefly touch on Han/Leia as a contrast to Deckard/Rachael.

[@samlerf]

@@styleissubstance Well, every romance in any piece of fiction deserves a closer look. It's not about Star Wars, SW is simply a useful tool for wider discussion, considering how well known the saga is. Writing's tricky. A good person with kind intention can create harmful implications without intention. I wrote there a lot about what I like about Han and Leia's relationship, yet I do see the argument that it has its problems, especially in regard to the "if she says no, she's really just playing hard to get/means yes" argument. In general I would have liked for their relationship to include more emotional dialogue, which I think Return of the Jedi was overall better at. When growing up it actually took me a while to even get that there's an emotional romance between Han and Leia in Empire. Too much of their dialogue seemed to send sexual instead of emotional vibes. I was never a huge fan of the "will they get together?" premise, as the answer to that question is often so damn obvious. I would be happy if we could have more fiction about people who already are in a romantic relationship, as I find the development from that point forward often more interesting. Perhaps that's just me. That isn't to say that I don't have problems with the prequel's romance - mostly in regard to the "she lost the will to live" line. I understand that this piece of dialogue was the hopeless response from a droid programmed on medical treatment instead of emotional care. But at best it seems to be a very unsubtle way to drive the "self fulfilling prophecies" point home. Perhaps it was meant to imply that Vader damaged Padmé spiritually? But then I would have wished more for clearity, especially considering that the attack of the clones novelization has Yoda declare that Padmé, too, was strong in the force. I'm also not a big fan of Padmé staying behind and doing nothing while Anakin goes after Shmi and the tusken raiders, considering that the Phantom menace novelization mentions specifically that Padmé completted a close combat training. I have no problem with Padmé getting injured, them being seperated, she guarding the seemingly deserted tusken-camp as a backup or her being knocked unconscious. But her not being there at all seems to go against them being a building up their unit. I mean... I like the oil-bath scene between Padmé and C3Po in the attack of the clones novel, as it created the rare comparison between Luke and his mother. But was that better than her joining Anakin? It's also sad that most of Padmé's involvement with the start of the rebel alliance was cut, even if that plot thankfully made it onto the dvd and the revenge of the sith novelization. I guess it comes down to Lucas' approach to film: "But in my films, the dialogue is not where the movie is. My films are basicly in the graphics. The emotional impact comes from the music - and from juxtaposing one image with the next." and: "the first script I wrote had stories for everybody... and I cut it down and we had a script. But when we cut it together, there were still problems. Finally, I said: okay, let's be even more hard-nosed here and take out every scene that doesn't have anything to do with Anakin. But that causes you to juxtapose certain scenes that you were never contemplating juxtaposing before. And these scenes take on different qualities than before, because the scenes were never meant to be next to each other. In one case, there was supposed to be a scene with Padmé and Bail Organa between two Anakin scenes, because we were following her story along with his. And when most of those scenes were cut out, suddenly all sorts of weird things started to happen that weren't intended in the script - but in some cases it worked much better. What happens then is that some of the themes grab hold of each other and really strengthen themselves in ways that are fascinating. You pull things together and suddenly a theme is drawn out becouse it's in three consecutive Scenes instead of just one. Suddely one theme is infinitely stronger than it was bevore, so we'll strengthen that theme because it seem poetic." So I guess the prequels are somewhat experimental. And to be fair: the deleted Padmé scenes from the film have the bad habit of not being very interesting visually. In many ways they seemed more fitting for a novel than a film, considering that most of them were people talking while sitting around. But woudn't it have been possible to write scenes that were more visually interesting? I could go on and on, especially about the connection between the prequels and human myths and mythology, yet I coudn't write anything that the book "The Star Wars Heresies: Interpreting the Themes, Symbols and Philosophies of Episodes I, II and III" hasn't already covered. Sorry, I guess this became longer than I wanted.

[@Tyrell_Corp2019]

“ The violent intention of the character Deckard?“ Totally off and misguided understanding of the script that she partook in. The fact is… Both of their characters are Replicants. The question burning inside of them is to know whether they are human and capable of love. At the center of Blade Runner is a longing and lust for life that these Republicans wish to experience. That is the big question of the film. Will AI in the future have true conscious experiences as humans do? Here we are in 2021 and we are beginning to see that some forms of AI may have legitimate consciousness. You cannot apply “feminism” or any kind of trendy morality onto this film. Absolutely ridiculous.

[@steamboatwill3.367]

be stupid somewhere else.

[@ralfigs]

Lol consensual. She stays after the fact. She could have left anytime. Rachael says touch me on her own. Lol If that's not consensual idk what is. Now talk about feminist toxicity. Weird

[@steamboatwill3.367]

B!llshit.

[@steamboatwill3.367]

He kept her from leaving. She said it because he told her to.

[@kostajovanovic3711]

Are you the person they talk about at 23:47 ?

[@johnbuggy9121]

This scene has been over analysed to bits. It's a love scene. Simple. Get over it snowflakes.

[@styleissubstance]

It's not that simple.

[@vicentebarahona4999]

No

[@steamboatwill3.367]

It isn't.

[@kostajovanovic3711]

Stop being so anti-intelectual

[@ruru7169]

If this is a 100% romantic scene for you, get help please