How can eBay Pre-built PCs be THIS bad?

Today I turned to eBay, for some good laughs at the terrible pre-built "gaming" PCs that people sell over there.
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[@helljester8097]

This reminds me of a 1 star review I saw for a 9900k. The guy said the so called “king of gaming CPU’s” was a scam because the integrated graphics was useless in all his games 🤣

[@ajemajh]

what

[@JuanM254]

lol

[@jimmynich4791]

I seen a review on Amazon of a case a guy gave it one star because he thought there would a bay for an optical drive when you can clearly see in the photos there isn't. Must've looked at the first photo and decided to buy it.

[@213SmokeyBadazz]

How dumb people can be, that's insane fr

[@MrBaronCabron]

I've seen this type of crap so much. People giving 1 star reviews for things which clearly specify what is in it, yet they still buy it anyway then write a scathing review about how it isn't as advertised, as if they've been incredibly wronged and they're not the asshat. It's your own fault for buying something with your hard earned money and not even doing a Google search.

[@jeffreypaul9428]

Ebay - "Radioactive swamp with toilet alligators." - valid.

[@chenming91]

totally agree with that statement .

[@Durbanite2010]

I don't think that analogy is strong enough tbh. Vault 87's Outside Entrance is actually more appropriate. Immediate death.

[@S28426]

what would wish be

[@DawidDoesTechStuff]

Hahaha!! Yeah I was a bit mean to eBay in this video. 😂

[@freddan6fly]

@@DawidDoesTechStuff " I was a bit mean to eBay in this video." Still an accurate description.

[@SirNickyT]

Oh man... Toilet alligators is THE MOST appropriate comparison for EBay. You've done it again sir. Kudos.

[@jere309]

Lol

[@DawidDoesTechStuff]

Haha!! It really is lousy with toilet alligators. 😂

[@Shojikitsune1]

@@DawidDoesTechStuff Radioactive toilet alligators. ☢🚽🐊

[@BrianBBBB]

So toilet alligators means Dawid is talking about Florida

[@aborted4196]

@@BrianBBBB don't stop with Florida the entire South is full of toilet alligators

[@itscampception554]

The two ads for $1300, the first one was a “buy it now” and the second one (with the 2060 super) was a auction, with a starting bid of $1300.

[@Steiny5843]

it wasnt a 2060 super tho. the card itself says GTX

[@itscampception554]

Steiny5843 If you actually watched the video, the ad said that the photos were for “illustrative purposes only” so the photos aren’t of the pc they are selling, it was a photo of his main rig. It does have a 2060 super.

[@Steiny5843]

@@itscampception554 yea i seen that after i posted the comment lol my bad

[@DawidDoesTechStuff]

Oh I missed that. Damn. In my defense, you can totally build a system for $1300 with the parts he listed in it.

[@itscampception554]

Dawid Does Tech Stuff Yeah for sure, but then that’s new for $1300, and not “used” which it most likely will be. I don’t care if someone just ran benchmarks on it, it’s still used in my eyes. It’s worth $900 to me lol.

[@kevinmorrice]

i bought a prebuilt gaming pc once, ikea was closed and i needed a coffee table

[@Lucian00311]

Savage. Here's an upvote.

[@stabgan]

Went over my head

[@leo-co8ky]

Lucian this ain’t reddit but I guess it works

[@DawidDoesTechStuff]

Sounds like a decent coffee table. 😁

[@linkthehero1234]

deren Stree prebuilts are bad in case you didn’t know from the video and since the furniture store is closed he got a prebuilt pc to use as a coffee table

[@OhTylerB]

The second add, the guy will no doubt have wanted closer to $2000 for it seeing as $1300 was his auction starting price.

[@DeepFakeLofi]

No kidding. And you'd get a better bang for your buck with a mid 2000's optiplex lol.

[@DjVortex-w]

I always love it when they just say "SSD" without specifying which kind. There's a world of difference between a SATA SSD and an NVMe SSD. (Also, if it's an NVMe one, they should always tell the speeds, because they vary _a lot._ Some NVMe SSDs may have like 500 MB/s read speeds while others may have over 4000 MB/s.)

[@doobasaurus]

1:33 It's a 5600 XT, not a bad card but for that price it's terrible

[@joeMAMAAA88]

was about to comment that

[@Panper]

I can still understand I guess but that i3 it's ridiculous

[@cupcakethesabertooth6802]

A bit off topic, but I'm thinking of buying an RX 5700 XT paired with a Ryzen 7 3700k is that a good choice?

[@Panper]

@@cupcakethesabertooth6802 a ryzen 7 is a bit overkill, I would say a ryzen 5 is enough or maybe get a better gpu

[@cupcakethesabertooth6802]

@@Panper Ok

[@the-real-sachin]

I will definitely argue that the guy who built the system with i3 9100F and selling it for 1300$ should go to hell... Edit: the guy who sells i9 iGPU build for 4K$ should go to prison...

[@RonaldMedia]

Maybe the prices are in Zimbabwean Dollars..

[@whiterabbit75]

It's in Weimar Republic Marks.

[@mtaufiqn5040]

it's in Hungarian Forint

[@cetheral1881]

I still remember when i used an ebay prebuilt that was around $40 and had a E8400 with 2 GB of RAM. All I did was upgrade the RAM to 8GB for $20 and put a Q6600 in it for $10, along with a GT 710. $100 "Gaming" PC was pretty dookie but it played what I wanted to play.

[@xvegeta13]

Cable management is the easy nitpick of every pc based KZbin lol.

[@donextmedonextme4351]

Indeed... If he Saw my PC he would have a stroke 😆. I dont care about that at all, as long as it works well

[@szymonkowalski1059]

@@donextmedonextme4351 Wait till you have to swap something, or repair it...

[@donextmedonextme4351]

@@szymonkowalski1059 i have done that several Times. Its no problem at all 🙂. But i agree, its better to have a cleaner system, i just couldnt BE bothered

[@corocsat8469]

Its because cable management is easy.. it also makes the system safer... you remember inside that lil box is about 30 - 50 degrees while running and if you have cables everywhere you basically ruin your airflow and if its bad enough you're making a fire risk...

[@thetruestar6348]

Built my first PC this month and cable management is EASY there is almost no excuse to have cables everywhere with modern day cases.

[@lucienmaranber]

"Yeah dude it's worst than Amazon I swear!" Dawid: "Worst like..."Worst" worst? Or like... "Jeffrey Epstein" worst ?"

[@DawidDoesTechStuff]

Hahaha!! 😂

[@silure9502]

Accurate: both are (or were) directed toward innocent children.

[@iCrackr]

Sodomaniac oh my...

[@elfedorausado]

That killed me.... You have to be really bad, to earn an Epstein avatar

[@user-qw4a223]

Sodomaniac damn!!!

[@0Forest]

Actually the 9000$ system was in one of greg salazars vid

[@holycownonames]

Except we got to see it here, and not hear the migraine inducing voice. I'm not hating on Greg, he does good videos but his voice gets to me.

[@whyers4782]

@@holycownonames then lower the volume then m8 easy as that.

[@jeffreygladu2716]

"that's like a $14 fan kit, so that's nothing particularly FANcy" -missed dad joke opportunity

[@fish_h]

Darn it! You beat me to it by a year! I wanted to make that joke!

[@josejuanandrade4439]

4:30 guy obviously built that pc using a swiss army knife and twizers.

[@TheMegatron673]

when sellers don't actually take quality photos of what they're selling and list the brand of each components, i don't think it will sell.

[@DJdoppIer]

It's for reasons like this that I self-taught myself how to repair and build computers. _So that I don't get ripped off by sellers like this._

[@nodak81]

Exactly. Basically the same reason I taught myself how to do my own automotive work. Tired of scumbag mechanics.

[@SeraphinaPZ]

These videos give me heartburn, and yet I watch them anyway.

[@shaneeslick]

Yeah, The ads make my eyes feel dirty & my Stomach turn like I'm watching something I really shouldn't

[@DawidDoesTechStuff]

Yeah sifting through these listings is not easy on your stomach. 😢

[@BludwichHorrors]

You don't "Buy" a PC off eBay, are you crazy, you summon it up from the pits of Hell

[@xXx_Oshino_xXx]

4:32 clearly he watched the verge's pc building tutorial.

[@jacquie286]

VGA on motherboards isn't rare, even on newest motherboards, unless you're buying top of the class stuff.

[@memyselfandi6422]

Who came up with the term "pre-built" if you think about it pre-built means before it's built, "post-built" on the other hand means after it's built. So pre-built really means a bunch of computer parts which haven't been assembled to make a working computer yet, post-built means a bunch of computer parts that have been assembled to make a working computer.

[@KentBurgess]

In reference to the $4950 PC. I thought your reaction was a little over the top based on the parts the seller had listed, so I did some research. The listed parts for that PC would bring the total cost of the hardware to around $4000 (give or take $100 dollars for price fluctuations). Ebay takes 10% of the price paid ($495), the seller is offering free shipping (a minimum of $75 in the continental US on a PC). Credit card companies and Paypal are also going to charge the seller about 3% or more of the final total. That would mean that the seller is making around $235. Yes, it would be cheaper to buy the parts and build it yourself, and in most of the listings you evaluated today, I would agree with you on the on the prices. I just feel that you should have done the math on the listings instead of just going "reaction". I've built a ton of PC's in my life and I can honestly say that I wouldn't begin to work on one for someone other than friends or family for less than $150. I certainly wouldn't be willing to take a loss on parts because of ebay and paypal fees. With all that said, if someone has that kind of money to spend on a PC, and doesn't either want to, or have the time to build it themselves, they would be better off by going to one of the boutique builders like Falcon Northwest, Digital Storm, or Origin, and get the warranty and support that such a builder provides.

[@aborted4196]

Ok Boomer

[@thegamerfe8751]

Even if you're right the seller is calling it a gaming PC even though it doesn't even have a dedicated GPU.

[@nodak81]

I just had a Dell tower shipped from Texas to Boston for $22, so I'm not sure where you're getting a $75 minimum shipping cost from.

[@patrickkilduff5272]

you are exactly right...he doesnt seem to get how bad the GPU and CPU market is right now...he gets too many free promos I guess...

[@jogaming55555]

@@thegamerfe8751 he’s talking about the one before that lmao

[@slaxyy3307]

Bruh he dissed vga ports on the back while my 9th gen i5-9400F is chillin in a MSU z390 a pro with a vga port and is fine

[@holycownonames]

Cool story bro, I built a windows 98 machine that can pump out a higher refresh rate than that VGA port on your 9th gen, and it was a GPU from 2004.

[@slaxyy3307]

@@holycownonames you acting like im using the vga port lol,im using a display port from my rtx 2060

[@yntjamari]

Slaxyy 9400f doesn’t even have integrated graphics😂 this guy has no idea what he’s saying.

[@slaxyy3307]

ItzGraVe I know it doesn’t

[@Mildly_Dead]

@@slaxyy3307 Same thing with my Asrock z370 extreme4 and it's a 250$ board.

[@dubblo7905]

0:09 My man's said "toilet alligator" while I'm sitting on the toilet like 👁️👄👁️

[@ulunkwulunk]

Alligator wanna gobble it up 😏

[@gavin758]

I want Nvidia to release an RTX 3030 so we can hear Dawid say "Thiddy-Thiddy"

[@aaronvictor8176]

Your videos are more relatable by prospective

[@Whiterin]

There are a good few "companies" I've seen advertising or selling on Facebook lately that essentially take old office PCs, throw the cheapest GPU they can get into it, and try to sell them as gaming PCs. I've seen some with first gen i5s for thousands, or one I saw earlier was an $800 "gaming" computer with an RX 550 GPU.

[@glopstuous8744]

5:00 that is the same specs that i have and i got it for 700 that price and cable mangement is doo doo

[@iEliYT]

That’s my friends listing. First of all he also got it for 700 but was just putting up to see if anyone would buy it. Second of all stop acting like cable management even matters like tf

[@sunnyliu9820]

@@iEliYT Tell your friend that he's a moron if he thinks cable management doesn't matter lol

[@RTXFE]

Seller at 4:12 follows the verge pc build tutorial

[@iEliYT]

Bruh this is my friends pc and I told him what parts to get. Didn’t even base it off the verge

[@RGD-Audio-Repairs]

oh boy, you havent seen the best ones.. the "ultra fast quad core" listings... Usually a Core 2 Quad system.. With fortnite picture on the stock photo :D

[@cortezbaldur413]

Lol yeah that's a rip off. But core 2 quads aren't as bad as people think. There probably the longest living still somewhat viable gaming cpu out there. Like no kidding iv seen some videos showing that ancient cpu line still playing some bran new triple a 2021 games. Not all of them of course and at a barely playable frame rate but damn if someone bought a good core 2 quads back in the day and was still using it to this day just new gpu that'd be legendary.

[@petmey5281]

That's funny I was just looking at your old video on the Amazon pre-built and this new video popped up. We're on the same level man, or communicating through space and time, I purposely looked for your Amazon pre-built video because I thought it was funny and wanted to watch it again. And lo and behold you have a new one

[@dashanyuan2403]

Spent four years of college struggling with eBay (selling and buying). All I can say is that it's a platform full of madness.

[@carsplitter97]

4:45 David: That motherboard is not great. Me with that motherboard: *crying in corner*

[@Galiant2010]

I feel like tech youtubers get out of touch with the average PC builder because they're so used to getting to build and test with high end stuff. LTT, Greg Salazar, and Dawid are all guilty of this. Forgetting that parts they call "okay" or "it works well enough" are some of the better bang/buck items out there for the casual self-build enthusiasts.

[@alexlexo59]

4:50 the verge build guide😂

[@iEliYT]

That’s my friends pc I told him what parts to get. I didn’t base the parts on the verge and i had no idea they were the same and even though they are the same why does it matter lmao

[@syndi3916]

"This swarm is radioactive and filled with toilet alligators. That's right, we're heading over to eBay!" This is the reason I'm still watching his videos ngl

[@dohnuts4405]

Going by these prices I should list my PC for like $6,000

[@aero5016]

"How can E-Bay PC's be THIS BAD?" ah yes, the floor here is made of floor

[@frankdiehl8749]

4:56... Aaaaand, a Swiss-army knife was most likely used there...(That hopefully had a Phillips-head screwdriver in it.)

[@shannonrhoads7099]

Was it on a table, though?

[@luisgottwald1382]

Well this is what makes online shopping here in Germany more fun - If you're shopping from a commercial seller you are allowed to return your ordered product within 14 days without giving a reason amd claim your money back

[@GreyWolfTowers]

Looks like the builder of the $900 system watched the verge video...

[@Buggest]

The most down to earth, friendly and knowledgeable tech KZbinr that I love watching. Keep it up Dawid! Your channel is going to explode in popularity!

[@ahmedst290]

I think Greg Salazar made a video about this one 7:58 but the ad was on Facebook.

[@skooks3]

He did, I live near this guy and its posted on offer up and craigslist too. It wont ever sell anywhere near this price.

[@DawidDoesTechStuff]

It is pretty crazy. I really hope people don't buy these PC's.

[@azimy9388]

The thing is. eBay has very high fees to maintain listings. They take about 15-20% off the bat right when the listing sells, and another 5-10% if you’d like advertising. That’s why the deals aren’t so great.

[@RandomRider570]

How can there be so many i3 9100F's? Would it be the same story as the GTS 450? And a RX 5600XT is a bit better then a RTX 2060, but not the super. And that CPU cooler in that first PC, it looks like a RGB cooler from Wish (that LTT bought). And I think it was a 9400F. And I thought that second hand PC's where overpriced in my country... But clearly not.

[@patrickkilduff5272]

nope...a GTX 2060 beats out a RX 5600XT in almost ever measurable way other then age.

[@xKynOx]

I built my new rig for about £520 (3600,5600 XT, B450, 16GB 3000) you have to be a total numpty to buy a pre-build

[@mar9248]

The thing in the thumbnail deadass looks like a tape drive

[@rodrigofilho1996]

There is no such thing as bad product, only bad prices...

[@NhanTran-sx8vx]

“Gtx 2060”

[@NJPurling]

Dawid roasts pre-builds - again! When there are no decent pictures of the motherboard itself you know the vendor has something to hide.

[@candjnutrition2752]

"You can't sell pcs like this".... That's capitalism functioning as intended.

[@gkato]

Where I live people don't even post the full specs. They just say "hey it's a I7 so it's good, right?" and then you realize it's a 3rg gen or something. I imagine a lot of people buy old PC parts and sell them for a premium too.

[@CarlosQ24]

2:02 That's what she said

[@uwauw1311]

5:00 *THE VERGE PC BUILD VIBES INTENSIFIES*

[@stinkord7503]

When I heard the term toilet alligators I thought we were going to Australia

[@AnnaDoes]

Fair game 😂

[@rodneyk6913]

I am in Australia and we solved the toilet alligator nibbles by not using toilets anymore. 🇦🇺😜💩

[@GabrielTobing]

3:04 Wow, actually VR Ready no joke XD I'm shocked at the honesty tbh, no misleading advertising XD

[@tonycrabtree3416]

"toilet alligators" WTF?!?!?! LOLOLOLOL!

[@musikSkool]

1/3 of the budget on the cpu. 1/3 of the budget on the videocard. 1/3 of the budget on everything else combined. Keep the monitor, keyboard, mouse, speakers that you already have.

[@mariastevens6406]

Buying a "new prebuilt gaming pc" on eBay shows your masochism. Sincerely, a regular eBay shopper.

[@mineclanz]

cant believe i bought one of these... ah well im rocking a entire new build now

[@cortezbaldur413]

It's ok u can buy some good builds or atleast half decent builds on eBay there not all bad. Especially before the crypto crap there used to be plenty of fairly good priced used builds.

[@Gortok1]

You didn't mention shipping costs...those can be high as well.

[@AnnaDoes]

That’s a really good point!

[@richardcollings371]

😂 this was hilarious, although I couldn't hear the last part as your voice had gotten so high-pitched by the end you'd gone beyond my hearing range 🤪

[@thatpacho]

gpu prices were so bad a year ago though that you could save around $600 form buying a pre-built. my friend got one and the AIO cooler immediately went out, turns out it wasn't even screwed into the motherboard. amazon sent a replacement cooler for free that was way better than the one it came stock with. pc is alive and well now, no issues since

[@mindedrobin6856]

6:44 VGA comes on some good b450 motherboards

[@React2Quick]

I was going to say, a lot of boards include VGA ports. So I'm not sure what he's freaking out about?

[@Mildly_Dead]

for real alot of good boards have a vga/15 pin d-sub port. Example, my board:www.amazon.com/ASRock-Motherboard-Motherboards-Z370-EXTREME4/dp/B0763BS899

[@React2Quick]

@@Mildly_Dead i have the Strix B450-f Gaming and it has VGA.

[@khalidimdadruposh]

A friend of mine bought a “gaming pc” off amazon once for 800 bucks. Intel core i5 7200u and intel hd 620. Also 8gb of ram

[@avinadadmendez4019]

Scam

[@Ghostxx]

3:15 gtx 2060 super?

[@kolsumn]

the one in the picture seems to be a evga 1080 ti sc black edition (2:45) although that is highly unlikely to be the card you'd get if you bought it

[@martymcfly88mph35]

RTX: OFF

[@TheCymbalProject]

"Pascal Generation!" Dude.... I'm dying over here.

[@Kundalini12]

I've got a computer with a 14 core xeon and two 1080tis and 32GB RAM inside a cougar case, think I'll list it for $10000.

[@fish_h]

“That’s a $14 fan set, so nothing particularly FAN-cy” I’ll see myself out

[@VRavTech]

Notification squad

[@bigmango202]

A local guy tried to sell an I3 system with a gt1030 on a local online marketplace naming it "the gaming beast" and selling it for 2000 USD

[@turle8645]

next look at the really cheap ones

[@Blaze8304]

Yeah, EBay is horrible. That's how my story with building PC's and selling them on EBay started when I lost my job to the COVID lockdown last year. Looked around and found it was all crap. Decided to build and list and done quite well. 100% customer and 100% my own satisfaction for helping grow the PC gaming community. I also met so many fantastic people thanks to it. Still going strong 9 months and many happy customers later.

[@Yizz44]

Notif squad!

[@ZacharyEntenman]

That 5000 dollar PC is honestly fine. Titan rtx for 2500, 400 dollars of ram, a 750 dollar cpu... with shipping and taxes depending on where they live they're getting close to paying 5000.

[@techdegenerate286]

DISCORD SQUAD

[@notchildish]

Well, if people can sell these then I’m sure I can sell something that actually is worth it. Thanks for this. Gonna start my prebuilt eBay career rn

[@giannhs8449]

If you see this YOU BETTER NOT SIMP IN NO SIMP SEPTEMBER

[@northernleigonare]

4:00 its still there. Though for £700 its honestly not a bad deal (cable managment tho yeah) since I swear PCs from PC world / Currys in the UK cost more.

[@EnhantedSaber]

"That's like a $14 fan kit. So that's nothing particularly FAN-cy."

[@kylematlock7499]

I'm Sorry but if you drop 4 Thousand on a PC and can't read the specs and understand it doesn't have discrete GPU, you kinda got what's coming to you. Like do a LITTLE research.

[@luckgrip252]

4:34 As i have a NZXT S340 Black/Red case and when i built the PC, it was my first experience building one and then i did do the cable management almost spotlessly like i've been building PCs for a while... (Admittedly my back didn't look that apealing, but i redid the whole thing down the road... Was little little tricky because of non-modular PSU, but i did it wonderfully)

[@therealturtlenecktech]

haha love from singapore

[@igamer6629]

At 7:09 Nappa:Vegeta what s the price of it? Vegeta:Its over 9 thousand Nappa: 9 thousaaaand

[@Sapphire-by2rq]

i would bet money on that build at 6:25 the guy was buying pc's from a store that put them together and he just ordered them and shipped them when they arrived, it says the build was a previous build so he's going out of his way to build them for this price.

[@Floridarollin]

Don't sleep on T force RAM. Good for the money. Got my 32GB CL 18 clocked at 3600 for $90. Not bad at all.

[@DTG4844]

5:00 the verge is back!

[@iEliYT]

Bruh this is my friends pc I told him what parts to get. Wasn’t based off the verge at all but ight

[@DTG4844]

@@iEliYT i was talking about how the ram isn't in the right slots lmao

[@OneLegendo]

prebuilts:pc yours,kidney mine.

[@Fainthen]

Sadly there's listings like that everywhere, and there's even worse kind, where the seller would intentionally try to mislead parents of young children to buy overpriced and terribly configured systems with rgb puke pcs.

[@NightcoreSkies]

exactly why I NEVER buy stuff from Japan on Ebay, they're WAYYY overpriced from the original sale price on Mercari, PayPay Yahoo, etc.

[@brettstout-rojas5833]

Gotta love those front intake fans on a case with a tempered glass front panel.

[@nodak81]

You have to remember that "looking cool" brings down the temps inside the case just as much as actual air flow.

[@dotech4128]

Man, I live in Detroit. You should see the Craigslist listings around here for prebuilts. There’s a Microcenter in Madison Heights (suburb like 10 miles away). I saw one the other day the guy was asking $5,300 for his “professionally built by an IT supervisor of 16 years” (it did look good), he listed the parts. I parted it out on Microcenter’s website, where he said he got it all a month prior, and screenshotted the cart total, which was $1,968. The only thing I couldn’t see and he didn’t list was the motherboard. I asked him if the motherboard cost several thousand dollars, and he asked why, and I told him that unless that was the case because it was made out of unobtanium and unicorn hair, I would offer him $1800 for it, and explained why. He told me don’t bother making an offer if I don’t know what I’m talking about. Pretty standard around here. And yeah, people buy them.

[@EthyrielY]

These PC’s look like they were built following The Verge’s guide...

[@ligate7830]

The 3rd PC's owner probably followed The Verge's tutorial

[@datmanbrooksiehd875]

1:56 I shit you not, that cooler is ALWAYS in the super-messy clearance bin at the MicroCenter near my house in the US. It’s being sold for literally $7.00 USD on clearance haha my brothers friend wanted me to help him buy/build a pc at microcenter and he picked that cooler up like “this looks sick”.. thank god I was there lol it went back into the jungle of a clearance bin where it’s been for the last year at least

[@timbo303official9]

Ebay is such a terrible website now because of scalping and Ebay does NOTHING NADA to stop it.

[@joshb6470]

the $900 system with 3 audio connectors in the rear IO tells me this is an old system with some hard core ali express trash in it

[@AxisCorpsRep]

ebay is the site where you can find listings as: ryzen 5 3600 16gigs of ram gtx 1650 msi b550 600w psu etc etc and other listings at twice the price as: "GAMING PC FOR GAMERS TO GAME FORTNITE AND LAST CALL OF DUTY AT 200FPS ULTRA SETTINGS WITH GAMER RGB AND GAMING VR-READY GRAPHICS CARD"

[@conman3609theoriginal]

4:50 Man the dogs are Barkin Cus that is RUFF!