How Can God Be Sovereign, but Not Responsible for Sin? | Is No One Without Excuse?

[@heartofalegend]

Reading through the entire testimony of Scripture, it seems rather hard (nigh impossible) to deny that, as a matter of course, the Lord directs the will of man to carry out His sovereign purpose. Whether we can understand it or not, that sovereign purpose involves sin and judgement. Without sin and judgment, there is no covenant of redemption, there is no glorying in God's grace and forgiveness. This has always been the "kind intention" of God's will, since before the world began. The effort of man to make all of this harmonize in our feeble, finite, broken human understanding, is a fool's errand. Just bow the knee and be thankful the Lord saw fit to reveal Himself to us as much as He did, and then recognize there is SO MUCH He has not revealed and that's as much to our benefit as that which he HAS. Humility is called for in this discussion.

[@danreich4320]

Hard to figure it out only if you are a Calvinist. Yes, then it’s hard to make sense of any of it.

[@heartofalegend]

@@danreich4320 Wow, if that's your response to what I said, then there's only one word to describe what you're even doing here, and most men have the decency to do it in private.

[@danreich4320]

@@heartofalegend you are sorely ignorant, and it seems, quite crass? Bad combination. Some day you will learn that the god of Calvinism is a terrible figment of your imagination. That day will be here soon.

[@HearGodsWord]

​@danreich4320 your comments here don't offer a better lens than Calvinism and your comments don't make you out to be a follower of Christ either.

[@danreich4320]

@@HearGodsWord what can I say? The god of Calvinism is not the God of the Bible. It’s as simple as that. Is it my fault so many people are duped into Calvinism? Answer: no.

[@BLynn]

So, another Bible scholar I follow, I do not recall now. Stated that Jesus used a Hebrew Rabbi tradition, at times, to state things not so you had an answer, but to wrestle with the information so that you could "chew" on it & in the process work it out for yourself. Which also seems to be inline with other ideas within the Bible. This maybe why you cannot paraphrase somethings in a neat package, is because we are meant to think it through & balance love versus the consequences of that love & if those consequences will also show love.

[@gregtyler4002]

Video-title answer: man was created in the likeness of God. Man has been given authority, dominion, autonomy…

[@MultiSky7]

4:23 ... With all due respect, I disagree in regards of John referring to himself "the beloved disciple", "the disciple whom Jesus loved", etc (i r. in the 3rd person) not in order to somehow amplfy "his status" or status of the 'inner circle' among others (John personally never elevated himself in anything), but on the contrary, to 'diminish himself' before Jesus' love. I've never seen Jesus showing more love for some over the others, He never elevated no one. Yes, he rebuked these who needed to be rebuked, but never elevated no one. I feel that John considered himself 'unworthy' of His love and, therefore, extremely blessed to be loved by Jesus. Jesus' love was everything to John. John was putting an emphasys on Jesus' love, not on himself

[@Galmozzi99]

Substituting "Sovereignty" with "Determinism" leads to the contradictions. An unnecessary mistake.

[@4jchan]

It is not a contradiction. Human responsibility is a secondary ( proximate) cause not an ultimate (remote) cause. There is always more than one cause for events that happen in a deterministic world view. Human responsibility (secondary cause) is based on desires or motives that determine our choices. This is essentially self determination as a secondary cause. It is a false dichotomy that it is either God or man is responsible for human behaviour.

[@Galmozzi99]

"This is essentially self dertimination". Who programs/determines their desires? Are they actually free to desire and act otherwise? Are you describing the dominos as self determining whether to fall? In your deterministic system, does God decree/determine all things? All events, including all mental events such as thoughts and beliefs?

[@4jchan]

​​​​@@Galmozzi99 Didn't you notice in my reply that I stated self determination **as a secondary cause** Libertarian free will ( the notion you can choose otherwise under the same circumstances) assumes **ultimate self determination** but it cannot be proven because there is no reason or explanation why people choose what they choose. It logically implies that LFW choices happen by random chance. You cannot control what is random by definition. Therefore self determination is false if LFW is true. Yes God decrees all things that come to pass but there are secondary causes that he decrees. Without secondary causes, creation itself would be in complete chaos with no order or predictability. Everything would be random. It is the heart of man that determines your thoughts and choices Mark 7:20-23 20 And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. 21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.” John 14:23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. These 2 passages of scripture prove that desires determine our choices

[@ProgressiveIncoherence]

Definitely contradictory.

[@Galmozzi99]

@4jchan I noticed, I just don't buy your system. Try answering the questions to find out why.

[@EmWarEl]

Any effort to ascribe the need for evil deeds or the instigation of evil deeds to God is severely disordered, and trying to sand the corners off of that fact by talking about his sovereignty is blasphemous. If God knows the future, and I believe that the Bible is clear that God does, then by creating, he ratified the choices of every human being in history. He did not need to create man. He said, "Let us make man", not "We must make man." Had he declined to make any people who sin and do not repent, he would have necessarily also declined to make people who sin and do repent, unless he creates puppets. This is simply a fact if God does not instigate evil in others, think evil himself, or do evil himself.

[@thomasfryxelius5526]

God has not decreed everything that happens. We pray for His will to be done because His will is not being done. And sovereignty does not mean controlling everything. Let us use correct words.

[@STRvideos]

We respectfully disagree. There is a difference between God's moral will and his sovereign will. Just because man does not always follow God's moral direction, does not mean that he is not sovereign over what we do choose.

[@thomasfryxelius5526]

@@STRvideos Thank you for the response, I appreciate the ministry! I don´t believe that distinction is in the Bible, it seems to be a made up one to cover for the fact that calvinists claim God has unconditionally decided not to save some while the Bible says He wants all to be saved. It is a way to disagree with the Bible and claim God has a secret will that is contrary to what God has openly said He wills. In the Bible it says it is God´s will we do not commit sexual immorality, while calvinists claim He has a sovereign will to decree these things to happen. "does not mean that he is not sovereign over what we do choose." Sovereign doesn´t mean to control everything. It´s not what the word means. God can be 100% soveriegn and still give us a lot of freedom, even to disagree with Him, to resist the Holy Spirit, as the Bible says.

[@STRvideos]

What do you mean by "control"? We are not saying God makes our choices for us or controls us like puppets. But we are saying he is in control. Nothing happens without his allowance. He works all things to bring about his purposes. We invite you to call in to the broadcast to discuss your thoughts with Greg. He'd love to hear from you.

[@thomasfryxelius5526]

@@STRvideos I would have loved to talk to Greg, I have learned a lot from him. I have problems with the call in show as I´m from Sweden and it is in the middle of the night for me. I think most christians would agree that God is in control and nothing happens that He could not have stopped. "We are not saying God makes our choices for us" don´t you, though? When someone says God is sovereign in salvation, does that not actually mean that He made the choice to believe for you? Some calvinists say that faith is a gift, and they mean that God makes you believe, which is making the choice for you. Let me know if I am mistaken, you may not be that kind of calvinist. And when you say He works all things, do you mean: 1) He takes bad things that others do against His will and still use them for good in the life of a believer. (I believe this) 2) He makes all things, good and evil, happen, but with a hidden purpose.

[@STRvideos]

"When someone says God is sovereign in salvation, does that not actually mean that He made the choice to believe for you?" >> Not necessarily. God chooses to exercise his irresistible grace, and we freely choose to respond. The irresistible nature of his grace does not remove man's agency. Please note, not everyone at Stand to Reason holds to Reformed Theology, although we do agree that the true believer cannot lose his salvation. Greg prefers the term "Reformed" over "Calvinist." We agree with your first point, but we would change the wording of your second point to "God ALLOWS all things, good, and evil, to happen, in order to accomplish his sovereign will." You can still (sort of) discuss these things with Greg! If you can't call in live because of the time difference, you can leave an Open Mic voice message on our website. We'll then answer the recorded question when we need to pre-record an episode.

[@mac8179]

Answer: middle knowledge. You’re welcome 😊

[@Galmozzi99]

@mac8179 Middle knowledge is a solution that actually works.

[@rocio8851]

Unfortunately, atheists like Doug Pinekcreek can easily demolish an apologist like Greg Koukl, just because Calvinism is irrational and false.

[@HearGodsWord]

Many would say the reverse.

[@Move_I_Got_This-b3v]

Everyone is going to heaven; this is Biblical.

[@HearGodsWord]

No, univseralism isn't Biblical. If everyone is going to heaven then the crusefixion was pointless abuse

[@Move_I_Got_This-b3v]

@@HearGodsWord 18Consequently, just as one trespass(Adam's Sin) resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act(Jesus on the cross) resulted in the justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. 20The Law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, - Romans 5:18-20

[@HearGodsWord]

@Move_I_Got_This-b3v thanks for proving my point!!

[@Move_I_Got_This-b3v]

@@HearGodsWord For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all. - Romans 11:32

[@HearGodsWord]

@Move_I_Got_This-b3v John 3:16 clearly does not teach universalism.