How Data's Memory Works in TNG vs Star Trek Picard

[@MajorGrin]

an updated compilation with more clips here : kzbin.info/www/bejne/noWQfGOwqtyGgac

[@The_Mighty_Fiction]

I used to hate when they did this. Data was supposed to be as lifelike a representation of a human as Soong could possibly manage, pores, follicles, respiration, heartbeat,... and then someone casually walks up, twists his wig off and takes a panel off his skull to reveal a bunch of blinking lights underneath. They should at least have needed surgical or engineering tools.

[@ge2719]

datas entire code, even his memories could be reconstituted from a single line of lazy dialogue.

[@MacBreezyy]

Graeme Evans “JUST MAKE It SOUND SCIENTIFIC AND SMORT! These idiot people who watch this show will never know the difference!” -Writers of this show

[@KSmithwick1989]

@@MacBreezyy You do realize you just describe every Star Trek series. The majority of it is really disjointed "scientific-sounding" crap, from over 20 years ago. We all do respect at least fractal computing is an actual scientific field. The idea of positronic brain being constructed in self-contained cells, based on fractal geometry. Makes a hell of a lot more sense then say "Q", a metaphysical being that screws with Picard for no real reason. Other than the writers wanted to add in a filler episode, which is a well known fact.

[@onestepbelowgod]

@@KSmithwick1989 Q is in 8 episodes of TNG, including the pilot and finale, and he "messes with Picard" because he has a soft spot for humanity (despite his airs to the contrary) and sees Picard as a pet (as they say in one episode). He also teleports the enterprise to the Delta Quadrant, causing first contact with the Borg (incidentally the first canon appearance of the Borg on the show. So yeah. Not a filler character.

[@ajsknight]

@@KSmithwick1989 I do not want to be the devils advocate here but you need to keep in mind that even with fractal geometry it is plain unlogical to recreate a positronic brain from a machine that learned itself new algorithms and patterns within its neural net which undoubtly is a dynamic system that consists of billions or even trillions of LOC (lines of code) which can not be so simply reengineered even with star trek tech considering that data was not only an individual lifeform in and of itself but also an entire new species, hence the episode measure of a man from TNG. To recreate his brain that easily is far more far fetched even with fractal computing then having something like Q which is star treks answer to the christian god himself from a scientific viewpoint cause Q is nothing more but a near omnipotent being living in an own "continuum" of existence which has nothing to do with our universe or even our existence as a whole. I always see Q as someone who wants to challenge the humanity in getting better as he has a sweetspot for humanity as has been shown by the trials he did especially in the last episode where he argued with picard that they show explore other more interesting things then the universe itself ... .

[@cycleplumber]

@@KSmithwick1989 For all the flaws TNG had, it came in a nice package. Maybe its due to my age and level of knowledge at the time of exposure, but the material, both scientific and otherwise, in Picard is harder to accept. I just don't buy them as plot driving devices or quality writing in any sense. Maybe Dr. Jurati is being more scientifically accurate wrt real life. But Allison Pill doesn't sell intelligence and knowledgeability as well as the exposition in TNG. As for Q, "Encounter at Far Point" and "All Good Things" were great bookends for the series. No regrets for having been a fan.

[@qgamer2266]

I also can reconstruct a 100.000 Terabyte File from a single Byte, totally normal

[@professorbobbington5149]

Q GAMER not even a Terabyte, Petabyte Data’s memory is 100 Petabytes

[@qgamer2266]

@@professorbobbington5149 100.000 Terabyte = 100 Petabyte

[@rorschachsjournal2084]

Its actually over 100,000 terabytes ( >10 million gigabytes) OP is legit correct.

[@qgamer2266]

@@rorschachsjournal2084 no 100,000 terabytes are 100,000,000 gigabytes

[@stalechips7418]

You didn't actually buy WinRaR did you?

[@bajsbrev4651]

"Data's code" Isn't data's brain essentially an actual, physical neural network?

[@harizotoh7]

Yeah he has a physical brain stored in his head. Of course there's software too but the Picard show seems to think that he's just an AI program you can run on a laptop.

[@blinded6502]

Probably his brain consists both out of neurons and circuits. Some algorithms are easier to implement via classical electronics. Such as those, related to bodily control. But it's not canon.

[@karimblix4378]

They kind of forgot about that

[@Scylon1]

The idea of it rebuilding from one bit is stupid enough, but in order to even attempt it you would need a "brain" able to host him. In the books, he comes back by taking over B4's body. But he had done a total memory transfer to do that, and B4 mechanically would have been close enough.

[@bloody_albatross]

In reality we run neuronal networks just on regular computer hardware. Special purpose hardware with physical neurons would probably be much more efficient, but also much more difficult to build (and impractical at this point where we haven't made our minds up on how to exactly design neuronal networks anyway). In any case one can call the wiring of a neuronal network its code, no matter if its physical or if it runs on a von Neumann machine.

[@Wagoo]

I think they could have gotten away with it if they said something like: "Neurons of Data's positronic net were recovered, each was found to contain a blueprint and coding routines unique to Data. Combining this with the transfer made to the more primitive B4.. it may be possible to reconstitute Data as he was.. complete with his memories"

[@Sensorium19]

They aren't as intelligent you and they think their audience is less intelligent than they are. Put in laymans terms, (dumb X dumb) = Giga-dumb.

[@ge2719]

exactly, that would make more sense. tey even have a line about how the transfer failed znd was lost. like maybe maddox took it secretly. but then why add this crap about cloning his memories from one cell too...

[@MajorGrin]

they could have simply said his memories were stored in his emotion chip which he left on the Enterprise when he went over to the Scimitar

[@doppelhelixes]

or they could just say "he made a backup"

[@ge2719]

@@doppelhelixes and as we now know from std, robots regularly backup their memories and delete ones they dont need like work emails :P

[@MasterVycen]

That line from Picard is like saying I could recreate a video game using a single transistor in my HDD.

[@samuelbarber4154]

Patrick B they did say "theory" like a flat Earther's "theory" is that the Earth is flat.

[@BlazingOwnager]

It's actually worse than that. It's more like you could rebuild an entire full hard drive from 32 bytes.

[@hansellius]

It's like the idiots who wrote CSI, 'enhancing' pictures to see the reflections in people's sunglasses and stuff. The writers are as thick as lumpy pigshit, and because they don't understand what they're talking about, they assume no-one else will either.

[@TonkarzOfSolSystem]

@@hansellius Ironically very new GAN developed neural net algorithms could actually "zoom and enhance" the reflection in sunglasses and produce a convincing image - however it would consist of detail "hallucinated" by the machine which would not represent the actual thing that was being reflected.

[@hansellius]

@@TonkarzOfSolSystem That's fascinating! I think my point stands about the CSI writers, but I love learning about new tech, and especially about new stuff in neural nets, AI, or VR.

[@davincent98]

"I seem to be missing several memory engrams." (Geordi opens his hand to reveal the chips. Data sees them.) "There they are."

[@MajorGrin]

damn I knew I forgot something . I made this late at night and was in a hurry to go to bed

[@Dac85]

Alex Kurtzman, ladies and gentlegerms. The ability for people to fail upward in Hollywood never ceases to amaze.

[@hundwyn7530]

It helps if you’re Jewish

[@imafgc]

I think the only othe industry where it happens as often is the armed forces

[@Tranefine]

Ima - That is not an „I think” but a „for sure”. I have witnessed this far too often during my service! :-/

[@Sirax123]

Ah, the Homeopathic Data theory.

[@thebeetalls]

We have dismissed that claim.

[@saltblood]

lmao nice

Extremely underrated comment

[@kabob0077]

@@thebeetalls Sparatus, is that you?

[@rominetheband1]

lolol

[@ZeroB4NG]

what pissed me off to no end was that in Generations the chip was FUSED to his neural net, in First Contact he could just deactivate it, and then he doesn't take it with him in Insurrection. It is like they walked the character progression back step by step.

[@randomrazr]

he prob figured out how to fix that between the movies

[@MajorGrin]

in the end of Generations they said that he can remove it but chooses not to . so the "fused" part was a temporary malfunction. after the Borg used the emotion chip against him it made sense for him to not take the chip on certain missions . it's unknown if the chip was in him when he was destroyed in Nemesis . they should have said that's how his memories had a backup and gave that chip to B4 in the end , instead of copying the memories from the start which immediately let us know what they're planning

[@sargon6000]

I'd prefer if they revealed that Data's transfer to B4 actually worked, but Maddox or someone else decided to intervene and covered that fact, and instead a different official statement was created, that it was a failure, so that the android creation process could continue uninterrupted, hidden from the world.

[@antaresmaelstrom5365]

Always love reality outpacing fiction: "I have a total storage of 800 quadrillion bits" "Sooo, an average 2020 server farm."

[@ahumanbeingfromtheearth1502]

I headcannon it that the words used to refer to data storage changed over time, and that a "bit" in the tng era refers to a much larger amount of storage space than it does to us in the early 21st century. Obviously this wasn't the intention, but so long as nothing contradicts it then it helps to keep the universe more consistent to me

[@antaresmaelstrom5365]

@@ahumanbeingfromtheearth1502 That's why they later introduced the "quad" as information storage to no longer have that problem.

[@scottland8698]

I mean, a server farm in a dudes head still sounds pretty advanced

[@Nr15121]

Scott Land just from a perspective of size

[@Nr15121]

But then again we have 3 terabyte chips the size of a fingernail so we are catching up

[@StarfleetSohail]

the neck effect in TNG was really cool for its time! I'd argue it was cooler than the film presentation.

[@RoodeMenon]

That was why i clicked so fast.

[@ryancropper4784]

They already had the answer. He transferred his memories to B4 in Nemesis. Also Lore is presumably being held somewhere too who has a very similar brain to Data. Instead we get this nonsense

[@Grabthar191]

It would have made a much more logical conclusion that they used Lore's brain to copy as a basis for the synthetic uprising.

[@Wagoo]

Yes, as someone fond of both neuroscience and AI.. this line really pissed me off

[@braveintofuture]

I thought the same but we don't know how a positronic neuron works and how they are interconnected. Maybe if the neuron stores traces of every stimuli and/or response and you could replay them on new neurons (via "positronic cloning") it could be possible to restore more than just the state of that single neuron. I'm just making things up here ;)

[@Wagoo]

@@braveintofuture well neurons in humans are a bit like a highly specialised function that get excited when they see input patterns they recognise.. for example there's a single high level neuron in your brain that fires like crazy when you think or see/hear anything about Data the android. That neuron LOVES Data. But it's always implied that Data is modelled on human beings, but with technology.. and are these neurons physical nanotechnology rather than software neurons running inside his hardware? The human brain has around 20bn neurons in the neocortex and around 100bn overall.. if we can imagine they are physical nanotechnology in Data then every single one of them would need a redundant storage capacity of 100PB (102400TB) to redundantly store the state of the whole positronic net.. so they would need a lot of functions built into them above and beyond normal neural functions. I think there were a lot of ways to explain a full recovery of Data's physical and data state at death, but the whole "extrapolate from only a single neuron" as if there's some magical parity system by then that stores checksums to 99,999,999,999 lost neurons to 1 single working neuron is lazy writing.. and reminds me of Cell from Dragonball Z more than anything

[@braveintofuture]

@@Wagoo you're right with everything but since we don't know what a positronic neuron actually is and how if works, they can always say it's doing magical things

[@Yusuke_Denton]

I think they were likening it to all biological cells containing the programming for the entire human body, independent of a single cell's function as a neuron. So the writers took Biology 101 but that's about it. Certainly not Computer Science.

[@Exploder11]

I see it like an extrapolation of the techniques for constructing complete information from incomplete information, like what was done with the black hole photo. Rather than each neuron holding a discrete memory, if each holds enough mixed information then maybe it can work. Besides, they didn’t make a Data clone, they used the technique to make the twins. Either we will see they got his memories or that part of the theory won’t work, and it will show us use of the neuron is a shortcut to a stable positronic mind, nothing else.

[@Kit_Kat_Catastrophe]

The absolute laziest uncreative way they could "bring Data back" while not actually bringing him back.

[@rodney73991]

there not bring him back sorry.

[@Kit_Kat_Catastrophe]

@@rodney73991 I never expected them to, they brought him back so they could kill him again because they get off on killing

[@Nuihc88]

If every single one of Data's 'neurons' contained multiple checksums and other metadata for a full index of his neural net, then it would be possible to eventually recover all of his memories from it thanks to the inherent redundancies of such a data storage arrangement, but it would require roughly a space-station sized quantum-supercomputer and who knows how many years/decades/centuries to compute through all of the possibilities for 100 Petabytes or Yottabytes. That said, if Data's brain had a backup and restore utility specifically written for it, that could considerably speed up the restoration process by skipping various unnecessary intermediate steps. Even so, it would take at least several months. The only thing i could have any problem with is that they never explain what they mean by a 'positronic neuron' or whether that's the same as one of his 'memory cells' or how and if that relates to the various chips, ports and blinking lights in his head; however explaining it's technobabble has never been one of Star Trek's strong suits.

[@KSmithwick1989]

Well to be honest the visual design for Data's brain is primitive as hell. It's like asking Nintendo how the new Microsoft Xbox going to be? When they just designed the Super NES. Asking a make-up artist how to accurately design technology from 300+ years in the future. Is like expecting medieval monks to describe our world today. lol

[@InJeffable]

2:17 Looks like Data added a comparatively massive heatsink to his tiny emotion chip.

[@BlazingOwnager]

@Johnny Eclectic Audiences don't love STD or STP.

[@Zorro9129]

@Johnny Eclectic Consoomers

[@TheLemonymelony]

0:18 800,000,000,000,000,000 bits is 100Petabytes normally "wow thats huge" storage capacities dont age very well but this seems to have done alright

[@stovepip]

"Hey we found this back up on a USB stick, let's use this shall we?"

[@AndrewSmall963]

I'm trying to reconstruct the entire ST canon from one episode of Picard. Some cheeky feckers appear to have flooded the timelines with unironic interference.

[@knowur10sand18s]

Modern Trek: Use arbitrary words that sounds complex to explain things and hopefully people won't notice. Abrams/Kurtzman Trek fans: "Wow this is soo cool!"

[@SmilesObrien]

Star trek has literally done that since the 60s tho

[@Sydleywydley]

Quite literally no different than old Trek, did you think the science was real?

[@knowur10sand18s]

@@Sydleywydley based on theoretical science of it's time not magic. Sounds like a writer on Modern Trek who doesn't know the first thing about Treks history.

[@Sydleywydley]

@@knowur10sand18s as someone who’s watched all the shows it’s all techno-babble science keyword bullshit 90% of the time

[@ranchoth]

Well, I'll give them this: they said it was some kind of "fractal" recovery system they used, so at least the drunken rationale is that the single neuron served as the fractal seed to regenerate an entire brain, and at least several Petabytes of unique data. (Er, no pun intended.) That is at least the sickly germ of an actual idea. Kind of like precisely designing the fractal pattern that would generate the entire works of Shakespeare from a single letter. I think that might be a little difficult, even if you specify it ONLY has to be generated from the letter "e."

[@maxpower2377]

You could make the argument that a positronic neuron would have quadrillions of potential variations to it and so make it much more likely to reconstitute an entire brain. In addition to that perhaps Data's "memories" and 'personality" are formed by positronic neurons and the raw statistical and factual information he knows are stored in separate storage banks. This would reduce the amount needed to be reconstructed. Although they could have made things a lot more believable had they said "collection of neurons" instead.

[@drewlop]

The thing about fractals is they contain very little information; all the complexity of a fractal visualization boils down to a comparatively simple self-referencing equation. Memories, on the other hand, contain a lot of unexpected events that can’t be predicted just from simple starting information. The writers made a really poor choice of math topic to use as a hand-waving explanation here, unfortunately :/

[@viermidebutura]

@@maxpower2377 in that case Date would only need 1 positronic neuron and maybe few more for redundancy

[@maxpower2377]

@@viermidebutura Yeah I also thought of that after I posted. However, I think I have a solution. A brain, even a positronic brain, is more than an information storage device. It also evolves over time and governs actions and decisions. So while a single neuron could theoretically store the last state of the brain, it couldn't preform any of the functions. For that you would need to actually run the full system. I hope that makes sense.

[@viermidebutura]

@@maxpower2377 in that case a single neuron can at best be used to recreatem a blank brain and not a a brain full of memories

[@ceo1OO]

🌐 Data is a scientific work of art... created in the year 2338... that's about 315 years from today (2023) 🌐 Even as advanced as he is, he is still 100% machine *on the inside* 2:41 🌐 Imagine being able to construct a synthetic human being... that is 100% indistinguishable from a natural born one... both on the outside *AND on the inside* 🤔 🌐 When would science & technology be that advanced? What year? 2844 ? or 3041? or 4836 ? or ... ?

[@dinodrago00]

I can listen for ages Data's calm voice.

[@TheDeadMan79]

What I want to know is how did Berman screw up the look of the chip in Generations?

[@Wagoo]

I imagine it's like a microsd card.. very easy to lose so usually best to keep it inside a storage container/sd card adapter. Otherwise Spot may end up with teh emotion chip in feline supplement 127!

[@ClemensLode]

It was a conscious decision, for people who didn't watch TNG and who have no clue about how chips work. For those people, chips have to be bulky.

[@MajorGrin]

it's easy to assume Data repaired it but couldn't keep it as small as Soong originally made it , and that's why it had to be hooked up to a different port in his brain since the designated one didn't fit

[@histguy101]

He added a surge protector, so he doesn't short out the chip during moments of extreme passion.

[@darthimperious1594]

So... the explanation could definitely had been better. Recover remains of him from the Scimitar. But regardless, Data is one character that truly upset me when he died. If Picard had died, or Riker, or anyone else, I would have been sad, but understanding. Data? It made me enraged. There was so much more life yet to live for our android friend, and his death just seemed... wrong.

[@999benhonda]

TNG, believable sci-fi. ST Picard, so far fetched you can't buy into it.

[@wellesradio]

RCPro Driver So we’re just going to ignore the Q, candle ghosts, the Nexus and a dozen other things that put TNG squarely into a fantasy realm that would make sparkly Twilight vampires feel right at home?

[@Saddler1944]

So what you are telling me is I could rebuild my lost porn collection if I just had a piece of the laptop's hard drive with me.

[@gamerex9378]

Man writers aren't even trying anymore. Between this and Game of Thrones. At least make an attempt to look like you know what you are doing.

[@RogerValor]

note that if he has 100k TB capacity, and records everything, the audio and video data might already be almost full after 60 years... let alone thoughts...

[@623-x7b]

I didn't know data was also Cell from Dragon Ballz. . .

[@andrewhawes3134]

Obviously, Data was fundamentally changed at the point that he was turned into the werewolf from Thriller. You can see him at the beginning of this metamorphosis in Picard's dreams, which is probably triggered when he's excited, like when he's cheating at poker.

[@skyediann3399]

Data has a memory capacity of 100 Petabytes, pretty impressive.

[@senorpepper3405]

in the early 90s, a gig of memory was an extraordinary amount

[@barbanousse]

Your work is excellent as always, Major.

[@happyplaceforever101]

Shit..... I made a side joke with a comment months ago saying that Data would be back as transgender female, cuz they want less men on the show. Sounds like they are setting up just that; data will *back* inside his daughters... maybe even Lore too. One good sister and one evil one.

[@potentialsideeffects1085]

Funny how the chip grew by the time of Generations

[@MisterDax]

Windows updates ;)

[@Zorro9129]

It went through puberty.

[@Scaash]

The change in where the chip went was probably from having to make repairs to it from when it was damaged. Also explains its change. The littler pacman chip is probably in the square chip. also explains why it overloaded his positronic brain.

[@woodant1981]

People when TNG came out: neural nets, wow, they must be so hard to create and no one could ever make them Me now: 1920 CUDA cores, a few tensor cores, lets go, just need a few more!!

[@takerdust]

ILLOGICAL! ILLOGICAL! ILLOGICAL!

[@charlesgray6385]

1:37 Oh dear lord I forgot about that fuck me I can’t unsee that for another 10 years again.

[@dswynne]

A bigger concern is that with Data wanting to die, he essentially "doomed" all the records and recordings of the colonists to oblivion. Should have archived that first...

[@007REAPER007]

That could explain the difference between the show chip and the movie one, the original wasnt working so maybe DATA created one from what he learned of the broken one.

[@WizelBalan]

They could have just said we worked with B4 as Data had copied over his neural net to him. However because the network was less advanced and caused B4 to crash it took us years to decompile and reconstruct everything and even then we had issues. Eventually we used Lore as a template as he possessed a working positronic matrix. After that it just became a matter of time. Issue resolved in a way that makes sense with canon and that everybody would accept.

[@soniclore]

n) Data was built with an ultimate storage capacity of eight hundred quadrillion bits (100 petabytes) and a total linear computational speed rated at sixty trillion operations per second. (TNG: "The Measure Of A Man") However, he later augmented his computational speed by converting his interlink sequencer to an asynchronous mode of operation, removing the performance constraint created by virtue of having space between his positronic links. His computational speed became virtually instantaneous after this modification.

[@ShamrockParticle]

Didn't Data have the emotion chip fused in Generations and couldn't figure out how to turn if off and on until the next movie, where the Borg override it? That still isn't as flaky as "we can recover everything from one positron neuron!"

[@MajorGrin]

in the end of Generations it was stated that he chose not to remove it , and by the time of the next movie he could turn it off when he wanted . later he sometimes took it out completely . it's unknown if it was inside him when he died . this could have been the perfect plot device to restore his memories but they forgot about it

[@jj_b5400]

He turned it off before he met the Borg Queen in First Contact.

[@noizW]

My god TNG was so good...

[@Spekor]

that extended black screen at the end scared the crap out of me.. made me think my computer was bung'd up

[@OneofInfinity.]

Can't wait for the next season of Star Trek Orville.

[@dominikdobrotic8298]

This is similar to the debate with Cell in Dragonball, he came back to life with his memory and everything regenerating from a single cell.

[@DrakeLord213]

At least with Cell, it was in a Shonen Anime where logic is consistently thrown away for the sake of "Cool shit happening"; Star Trek has no such excuse. It's most fantastical elements were deep Sci-Fi, even the Q and the Wormhole shenanigans.

[@Bluechief6]

Those scenes of Lore were actually Data from the future who came back to pose as Lore. Not a big deal for TNG but a pretty big one for Picard.

[@dlclcn5021]

What episode was the second clip from where Data and Geordi are talking about accessing memories? I can't remember.

[@thumbwarriordx]

Data only has 1 Petabyte of storage? Man, this show really did start in the 80's didn't it?

[@BlazingOwnager]

They should have retcon'ed it to say that's just his RAM, but that'd been a smart retcon instead of a stupid one.

[@ryanm7263]

A petabyte is 8x10^15 (eight quadrillion) bits. Data says his capacity is 800 quadrillion bits. That would mean Data's capacity is 100 petabytes.

[@oldtwinsna8347]

@@ryanm7263 There's no reason of belief that any of this equates to the bits and bytes we know of today. In canon, the duotronic computer was a revolutionary different generational computing design that the previous era up to it (early 2200s) to which itself may have been a revolutionary different design (monotronic?) than the silicon based computing era of today. A lot of hypothesis of how quantum computing fits into this all, but safe to say that it was mastered and perhaps superseding technologies over it.

[@neophytealpha]

What they did to Data in Picard really doesn't make a lot of sense

[@TrindyForce]

Could have been better with something like : “Each positronic neuron contains a core that breaks certain fundamental symmetries. In essence, it’s a crystal that repeats regularly not in space, but in time. The quantum implications of this suggest data’s memory was stored holographically in each of these cores, and while information was lost its not impossible that one neuron could be used to reconstitute traces of every line of code and every memory he ever had. If those traces were compared against records Data reported to the Federation, we could rebuild his entire memory”

[@agonleed3841]

so...basically...a single positronic Neuron...the end. Cause this isn't science fiction class and the lady was just getting an idea across.

[@redmartian]

single bit compression! you can keep that bit in your head and recover anything.

[@klystron2010]

Even Asimov said he pulled the positron shit out of his ass.

[@archenema6792]

Marilu Henner from "Taxi" is one of only about a dozen people worldwide proven to have total recall of every moment of her waking life.

[@Sensorium19]

Thank you for that reference. That's a fascinating and remarkable ability.

[@archenema6792]

@@Sensorium19 She never needed to read a script a second time, and often offered queues to fellow cast members who forgot their lines.:)

[@Gisune]

1:35 nopenopenopenop..ohhhh hell nope, lore pulling up them nail always got me fucked up

[@NuAngelDotNet]

The key word was "theory."

[@ClemensLode]

Well, neural nets are actually resistant to damage, but you lose precision. In a way, a single positron could store everything. But that's like saying you need theoretically just a single motor neuron to move an arm. Sure, it's true, but don't expect to do anything with that arm except flailing it around.

[@tiefensucht]

Yeah, but a single neuron is no network. It only stores links to other neurons it is or was connected to.

[@aurona]

Pulling on the data thread is never a good idea as the were always quite fast and loose with how he worked. Even the multitude of ways they cracked his head open in different scenes never line up.

[@Andrew-np4nw]

First season he uses contractions, then later on he cannot.

[@samuelbarber4154]

Yeah, this more shows the difference between TNG and the movies. The neck thing was cooler than the head thing. In one scene he remembers everything he's told, in other he only has vague recollections of certain things, and that's just TNG. It's like ragging on something for not understanding StarDates, hell, even after, I don't know if even the shows even get them.

[@matiashelios5214]

Maybe "Soji?", she's actually Lore's daughter and he's still alive, fucking around.

[@mynameiskyleabent]

Haha wow 3 minutes of intense detail that was obviously well thought out compared to a brief less than 10 second randomly slurred sentence by an actress I've never seen before who obviously has no care for what shes saying. GREAT.

[@SmilesObrien]

Blaming the actress is so dumb, if you're gonna blame anyone then blame the writers

[@Norvo82]

Wha? No snarky comments on how the emotion chip grew from a tiny chip to hardware the size of an avocado pit between TNG and Generations?

[@jj_b5400]

These people don't care about inconsistencies unless they happen after 2005.

[@yalkn2073]

The second memory chip wasn't Soong's chip and was a prototype.

[@Lodatzor]

That always did irritate me.

[@Virtually_Char]

I'll always hate how the writers of Nemesis left the door open for Data to come back via B4, but then ST Picard just quite literally shelves that and comes up with this bs. Why?

[@yowut8075]

What could be so different about rodenberry and kurtzman

[@randomrazr]

the only reaon i loike what the doctor said about the neuron, is that plot wise, its possiblewecould see data back

[@tiefensucht]

Somehow, but then why not just saying you could clone his whole brain from a neuron and after that put in the memory from B4.

[@samuelbarber4154]

I don't think that's where they're headed. In the first ep, they did address Nemesis and how B4, even with his memories, could never truly replace Data.

[@SkyDarmos]

Human memory is not stored in the brain. If it was, our storage banks would be full in a matter of weeks.

[@georgepierson4920]

Where is it stored?

[@SkyDarmos]

@@georgepierson4920 In the nonlocal realm, also called the Akashic records. They consist of archetypes that are memories. Memories are immaterial objects that have causal power.

[@wateverkitty]

what episode is the second clip from?

[@4TheRecord]

It's so sad that they killed Data for a second time. There were plenty of ways to bring Data back instead of killing him off like that. I won't even waste time watching the second season but I will watch all your videos Major Grin, great work on every single one of them.

[@JoTheVeteran]

Producer : You there! Wanna make a star trek series? I have a ton of cash I want to just, throw away for no reason. Writer : I've never watched star trek before, but sure, as long as you pay. Can I take creative liberty with it? I was thinking a bit of cp and mutilations.. it's what I think mostly these days... mmmm.. Producer : Sure, whatever, just stay away from me you freak.

[@90lancaster]

Even with as dumb as constructing a vast data base from a tiny sample is I also think that any positronic neuron's surviving at all the explosion of the scimitar is rather statistically improbable all of it's own. Especially when B4, and Lore's bodies provide them much of what they need (also Lal had Data' Memories for most of his life too If I recall correctly - even if she didn't have access to them all) - I think I read a novel somewhere that Lal's choice of a young human female was some reference to someone Data knew in his mostly forgotten memories of the colonists... it's quite possible that Soji might be someone else he knew then - But I think they are implying there was a Human template for her. I don't think it's very likely the Father's face she saw was Soong's as his Wife wasn't Asian. Unless he adopted a child and we new knew about it. He might even have switched off Lore and Data because of his responsibilities. I can't see them tying Soong into the show though as that would be making to much good Use of Brent Spiner as well as explaining Data's past that TNG only partially explained. I'm sure there isn't to much more exciting to find out about the twins in relation to anything that isn't to do with the Synths - it's not like Flint is suddenly going to show up heading a robot army.

[@GROENAASMusic]

So, a storage capacity of 100 petabytes.

[@rkmugen]

There'd be one thing that could probably make all of what they said in ST:Picard possible................ file compression.

[@Rafe758]

Reconstructing a 100.000 terabyte file from one bit. Lossless compression, brought to you by Pied Piper.

[@cellulanus]

The real problem here is that they made a problem that didn't exist and then created a stupid solution. They HAD datas entire memory right there in B4. Just like in Discovery where they got rid of warp travel by making all the dilithium explode when they could have just used the subspace damage that normal warp engines were doing as established in TNG. When they talk about how maintaining continuity being impossible they really mean they don't even want to try.

[@ryanmarshall5407]

It's the total perspective vortex from hitchhikers guide

[@TheTattorack]

That line, where Data's memory can be reconstituted from a single positronic neuron, is based on the scientific hypothesis that a single atom in our universe can be used to recreate the universe. Well, I says "based on" but it's more a misunderstanding of the hypothesis and then applied to something totally different.

[@Yusuke_Denton]

Weird, I assumed it was just based on the how DNA in biological cells works. (not including the memory thing)

[@johanwittens7712]

@@Yusuke_Denton that's the dumb thing. Yes you could clone an entire body from DNA contained in a single cell. You could even recreate the entire brain. And with advanced enough tech you could potentially grow this body to adulthood in a matter of days. But it would still be an empty shell, dumb like a baby, having to learn everything from scratch, with no personality, only certain traits and "inclines". Just like identical twins can develop very differently into different unique persons, so would a 'clone' or a copy of data that was reconstituted or 'cloned' from a single positron. A clone is a blank slate ... Good example were the ''tanks'' from space above and beyond. Cloned or artificially inseminated, grown to maturity inside a tank, but when ''born'' at 16-18y old, they still have to learn everything. This learning could be accelerated somehow through technological means, but environmental influence differences would still create a unique ''person''. Recreating memory and/or experiences from a single positron/neuron is, as already mentioned in the comments, like trying to reconstruct a 1 petabyte file from 1bit of data: simply impossible...

[@cycleplumber]

​@@johanwittens7712 To be fair, the twin sisters are not hinted in any way as having Commander Data's memory or life experience. But on the other hand, it is far more implausible that someone like Maddox (or anyone) can just dump fully formed personality and memories of someone into empty vessels such that Dahj & Soji believe themselves to be real people. Its a little upsetting that while TNG, when it was on the air, was interested in exploring Data's android nature and his quest to be human with "The Measure of a Man", his emotion chip, and that episode where he actually *did* build an android daughter, the same concept/idea of androids in his legacy is just a token piece is a story about the intersection of Romulan spirituality, the Borg, and conspiracy within the Federation at the highest level. The Star Trek I loved that Gene envisioned and brought to life would never have gone this contrived route.

[@viermidebutura]

a single atom contains information about the laws of nature but no information about the macro structure it was part of

[@1293ST]

If you could compare the human brain to a computer I believe I've someone that we would possess 2.5 petabytes of storage. Data has 800 quadrillion bits which is about 12 petabytes (more like 11). His data though is probably more ordered and easily accessible. I hope he is not running anything windows based. So, for TNG this sounds rather realistic.

[@qgamer2266]

2:55 maybe there are multible ports for the chip on data's brain, that's why geordi put it on a different location

[@MajorGrin]

I assume Data repaired it but couldn't keep it as small as Soong originally made it , and that's why it had to be hooked up to a different port in his brain since the designated one didn't fit

[@ZeroB4NG]

my PC has multiple USB ports in different locations, i don't see why not.

[@jasonluong3862]

Yet, if Data had a wife, he wouldn't recall what she told him 2 minutes ago.

[@MageGrayWolf]

Data's brain given a larger figure for the stated 800 quadrillion bits, comes to about 88.8 petabytes. The estimated number of neurons in the human brain is about 86 billion. If we assume Data was built to mirror this and each neuron had the same capacity spread across his entire neural net. That would give us a figure of about 1.1 megabytes per neuron in Data's brain. So, STP is claiming you can reconstruct the entire code and memories of Data which clearly would take up petabytes from something that would hold only about 1.1 megabytes of information.

[@agonleed3841]

....do you all not see how stupid THIS topic of hate is? making an argument about the amount of data that Data could POSSIBLY....IMAGINATIVELY have had and a THEORY that the woman stated....which was made to ATTEMPT to bring us back something of that great character Data.. Like..why wouldn't you be all FOR them to bring back such a type of character? Why are we trying to all be magical mathemeticians to dissprove, on a SciFI....science FICTION show....? Data was a remarkable character. He attempted the whole time to be Human. He was OBVIOUSLY well advanced. Like WWWAAAAYYY advanced. It's forgivable to simply allow them to make up some contrived way to bring him or a similar character back.

[@MageGrayWolf]

@@agonleed3841 It's how they are doing it that's the issue.

[@agonleed3841]

@@MageGrayWolf that's the thing for me..I don't see what the issue is from how they're doing it. To me, it's a good enough drama story. Data is gone. The guy who created him basically wanted to do it again, against all of StarFleet's wishes..which is understandable seeing as how the less than stellar androids were compromised. There were many attempts to make others like data, but they all failed...leaving the universe wit ha LOT of less than Datas running around..that got compromised. And it just made safety sense to ban all of that research that put everyone at risk. At least for now. But the guy ran with the theory of being able to replicate other Datas, by using the information left behind by the original. So now we have these two replicas, one that's been destroyed and the other Piccard is trying to save. People want Star Trek, the journeying space crew that discovers and learn from other cultyures..but..we already got that. Places have been discovered. They'ed learned of other cultures, the captain is old as shit now. He's had to basically force retire. Now he's on his own personal journey to recapture that experience as well as save remnants of one of his best crew memebers. I honestly cannot see the problem.

[@MageGrayWolf]

​@@agonleed3841 Their explanation runs into the aforementioned problem of how memory storage even works and contradicts his stated capacity. It also raises the question of how they got a neuron from Data in the first place. Let's consider a possible alternative? How about instead they say after all that time researching Data's brain Maddox manages to replicate the technology successfully. He then downloads all that is left of Data from B4 into the new positronic brain, which unlike B4 is able to handle the information. Same result, less stupid. The personal journey could be good, but they seem to insist on making the world of Star Trek a dark and ugly one devoid of any hope or the view that humanity has improved from where we are now. They even go as far as to make the characters act and sound like they are in current times rather than in the late 24th century. As 7of9 put it, "wouldn't want to disillusion the old man they there is still room for mercy in this universe." That highlights the problem of the show's tone. But the writing itself is also bad. Two examples from the 7of9 episode. We have Raffi telling Rios about an alien that can smell lies, what you had for dinner, etc. Then a few minutes later Rios runs into this alien and we are told all this over again. When they finally got Maddox back all he did was give us an exposition dump of information the audience already knew. That also highlights the issue that we are being told the story then watching the characters go through the motions rather than taking the journey along with the characters. Another prime example of this poor storytelling is from the last episode. We have Rios suspecting Raffi of being the traitor, when even if you couldn't figure it out from the start, we have already been shown Dr. Jurati is the traitor. This makes the use of a red herring pointless and holds no intrigue. There is no suspense that maybe Raffi is the traitor. So the whole thing falls flat and removes the audience from the journey the characters are taking. Just imagine if they had kept it a secret as to who the traitor is. Maddox is killed like before, but in this version, we don't see who did it. The audience at this point still strongly suspects Not Tilly, but it's not confirmed. Now they throw us small hints and Rios' red herring that it's Raffi who's the traitor. Imagine how much more the audience would feel invested in the journey of finding out if done that way?

[@agonleed3841]

@@MageGrayWolf the dialogue, I agree with. Like that whole "smell what you had to eat" then he actually does it. BUT..I grew up in a time that t.v. shows, even the old Star trek was just that damn corny. So..I forgive it. Don't like it, but I forgive it. Cause..if I'm ONLY judging this show, then it's corny..but not that bad. If I'm judging it based on the past, i've seen a LOT more corny shit than this, and therefore this really isn't that bad. Either way, it gets a pass. I mean, I JUST finished rewatching Enterprise since I was a teen-adult getting out of military when it had it's run. That shit was so full of corny it was crazy I remember the next generation fondly, but looking at it now..FULL of 80s/90s....aura. you just ..lol. it's crazy. So...some corny shit in this show, which is linked to that, gets to pass to me. I don't necessarily like it, but I don't see the point of being angry about what has always been there. There are two ways to do drama..like when you bring up Maddox death. Audience seeing who did what, and simply watching as things play out with the characters. My wife likes that. Criminal Minds is one of her favorite shows, and they always show you who did what. You get to see who puts arted what and how things play out Then there's the "take the audience for a ride" version. Where we don't get to see. We have our expectations, that gets revealed as right or wrong later. Personally, I don't mind either way as long as what I see happening plays well. Most people LOVE John Wick movie and sequel. I. Each one, we know who did what. So..why can't this show do that too? You WANT it to be a red herring to you, but the show didn't want to do it that way. So..it becomes less about the show being good or bad and more about simply what you want. I'm willing tosee it through to see if the tension becomes some hard fall out or turns to violence or what. Maybe it'll instantly be resolved seeing as how the science officer lady...I don't remember names well...she put herself in a coma. MAYBE some auto recording device captured evidence. To me, I'm just as anxious as I would've been if I didn't know at all. As for "dark plot". It's THEIR life Just like some poor people in America are living in despair, there are middle class to high class people having the time of their lives. These stories are SPECIFICALLY dealing with a small group of people who we get to learn of their journey. Not a while crew embarking on a journey to just learn new things. So life for them is kinda dark, doesn't mean the whole universe is . We aren't focused on the whole universe. This is THEIR journey. I don't see it as dark as much as I see it as kinda realistic. Technically Piccard had a great life. As an old man, of course he regrets some things and wants to recapture that old life. Talk to many old people and that's a realistic thing. 7 of 9 was kinda destined to go this route..or at least it was very possible for this to be a route. She worked at trying to adjust to a group of people, who eventually became not a group. So...was she going to go through all that again or just do her thing? And would "her thing" possibly lead her to happy pastures like Piccard? Also..to me, these same stories would play out in the old shows back int he day, but without the movie style production. To me, that's the biggest difference I remember some "heavy" stories/messages in old star wars. But they were low budget made for t.v. shows in an era where certain words couldn't be said or certain issues had to be masked..but it played out on screen for us still. Today, words can be said and not much has to be masked. So we get FULL drama. So..because I understood the severity and implications back then, I don't see much of a difference now except HOW it plays out.

[@theduke7539]

STP and STD are both insults to anyone who paid attention in the older series

[@agonleed3841]

I don't think so. I can fully understand that the older series worked with old formula also. We have evolved the formula of drama on t.v. shows and the production is more in line with movies now. It's ok to accept a change to the formula. Also..it's a whole other story. He's not just Picard capt of the ship with a huge crew and populated ship. He's an old guy trying to recapture the spirit of those old days, in a "world" that has changed. Many things have changed since I was 8yr old in 1993.

[@theduke7539]

@@agonleed3841 what? I mean STD and STP pay no attention to established canon. They just stomp right passed established facts in the canon like it was never there. That's why I said they are an insult to anyone who paid attention. If you enjoy them that's okay, but they pay no respect to 5 decades of establish canon from TV to Movies to Comics to Novels, every bit of it just walked right passed.

[@theduke7539]

@@agonleed3841 like STD, they ignore established lore about Klingons. 1, throughout the 23rd century, klingons had smooth foreheads, this was established in the original show, the real reason was low budget constraints and technical limitations. The canon explanation for the smooth faces was given in Star Trek Enterprise season 4 over about 3 episodes. Worf also mentions it in DS9 as a dark time that is not talked about openly in the empire when the crew go back to the 23rd century on accident. And yet, STD just goes back to 10 years before the original show, dead in the middle of smooth face Klingon time and shows klingons that look more like Reamans from Nemesis. 2. In the same show, they say klingons respect aggression, no. Vulcans have had contact with the Klingon empire for several centuries by the time of STD, they know very well that Klingons have a very complicated sense of honor and it is that which they seek. And actually, during the 23rd century, the Klingon Empire was known for its love of culture and education. It was only in the late 24th century that the Klingon Empire began to decline through failing economics and poor education leading to blinded fools with an unsustainable blood lust. During the 23rd century, Klingons were skilled warriors, but they were imperialists, not tribalist. It was during this time that many of the best field commanders for the klingon empire existed. These commanders were well educated in both their own culture but also that of their opponents. In Star Trek 2, a klingon Admiral quotes Shakespeare and Kalous in one paragraph in an attempt to find common ground between himself and Kirk. Meanwhile, STD shows klingons as blood thirsty animals with no real higher thinking than a worship of chaos and violence. STP tramples over 3 series of established lore on AI rights. Data from TNG, Doctor from Voyager, and Vick Fontaine from DS9 were all given the same rights as individuals and citizens of the Federation, court cases were held, 2 separate court cases. The first established Data as a living being entitled to the basic rights of granted to sentient beings within the federation. And then in Voyager, the Doctor was granted rights over his creative works which granted him the right to own property as well as ownership of his creative works. That is 2 separate case laws made establishing AI rights. Case laws are important and grant a basis for future cases. Case law can be overturned, but few will challenge cases based on rights. Especially seeing how Data sacrificed himself for the most famous captain in the entire federation, there is no way Picard, O'Brian, Worf, Riker, Troy, Geordie or any other officer who served with Data would stand by and allow his legacy to be stomped on by letting AI rights be destroyed in a matter of years.

[@dna9838]

Ahh, the time before white LEDs

[@spruce1417]

Eight hundred quadrillion bits equals one hundred thousand terabytes of memory.

[@motomeistere4496]

just realize we're not that far off from data's capacity for storing data (800 quadrillion bits = 100 petabytes), whoever write that script probably didn't expect that

[@ZeroB4NG]

800 quadrillion bits? how much is that in gigabyte? //google says its 100.000 TB or 100 Peta Byte. OK, my unRAID server cant quite keep up with that :D

[@jackkennedy1931]

About the size of the Facebook servers

[@Cubsfan-hp1gw]

This was something I was hoping they would go into more detail on just a little, but of course not...

[@squee222]

well think of it like DNA... you can stuff a lot of information into a small space with the right structure. Perhaps he has a "genetic" instinct...

[@agonleed3841]

exactly

[@blueskies133]

No. DNA is a priori knowledge. Memories are posteriori. Now to dumb it down for Agon there who was so eager to say "exactly". Think of DNA as the building block that makes an apple. Experience/memories would be, for example, a cut from a knife that started to slice said apple.

[@campbellmaclure7386]

The way that large stupid chip span around suspended buy a thread pissed me off no end.... Such a cheap horrible affect. It even starts to spin back the other way when you watch the whole thing. That affect summed up the writting quite well 😂

[@mrbluesky853]

Putting these clips side by side. You can tell why the fans are pissed. Before Kurtsman Star Trek felt like an adventure. STD and Picard, it feels like a failed CW show. I mean the music, The dialogue, the acting. It's day and night. The same with the Orville.

[@CorneliusBogfrollupFitzgerald]

So they’re saying he’s like brainiac.

[@Andrew-np4nw]

I think it's a little unfair to pick on the technological inconsistencies in Picard. TNG was all over the place with how the Enterprise works, how the Federation was set up, how Data worked, how beaming through shields worked, how subspace communication worked. The list goes on and on. It's just a TV show, it doesn't really matter.

[@ahumanbeingfromtheearth1502]

I agree, star trek has always had inconsistencies since tos, unlike things like the portrayal of the federation and the incompatibility with it's portrayal of section 31 this is a relatively minor inconsistency that I honestly wouldn't have been surprised to see if tng had 5th movie soon after nemesis. That doesn't mean it's not an issue as I prefer it when the universe of a show is consistent, but this is nothing star trek hasn't already been doing for decades so it's unfair to pick on STD for this specific mistake to this extent.

[@samuelbarber4154]

I think this is genuinely symbolic of people trying to find things to dislike. Going out of their way to hate on it. Almost like a "Hey, let's all pick on the new kid." Scenario. People forget that even when TNG launched, the fan base didn't respond well, "Ugh! Where's Kirk? So our new Captain some old French Nerd? Lame! Why can't we go back to the days of Tribles!"

[@Lodatzor]

@@samuelbarber4154 And thankfully the studio actually LISTENED to those complaints, and made the show much better as series went on. Today, we live in the era of calling fans toxic for having standards.

[@DaedalEVE]

Data can store 100,000 TB of data (100 Petabytes)

[@jlalejos]

I think they "tried" to make it where data positrons worked kinda like quantum entangled storage of some kind where one would hold all storage of memories and experiences all would have that same memories and experiences as well. However it has been established in cannon that is not how datas neural net works, god cbs and the writers of the new trek should really have some lore masters on payroll and stop messing up continuity

[@sneakyking]

2:49 my hairline

[@LetBBB6345789]

The emotion chip is changing size and shape over time. Or maybe Data meddled with it

[@josephleisses3997]

He and LaForge did at several points. That's how he was able to deactivate it with a noise and a Tourette-esque spasm late in the series as opposed to having to rewire his brain everytime Data didn't want to be bogged down by emotions. Or a sliver that size keeps getting lost so a new metal prop was made whenever the TV crew needed it. One of those two.

[@Lodatzor]

@@josephleisses3997 I think it's that some genius in the prop production department figured it the original didn't look 'electronic' enough, so made it more of a cliche.

[@friedrichjunzt]

I miss Star Trek. 😔

[@samuelnathan312]

It is like reconstructing a guy and his memories from a single sperm cell.