How do we define Genre in D&D

[@haveswordwilltravel]

Epic Fantasy: “We need to get the McGuffin and do the thing so we can save the world!’ Sword & Sorcery: “We need to get enough money to pay our bar tab!”

[@BanditsKeep]

😂 yes!

[@sumdude4281]

That is an amazing comment. You might win the internet today.

[@SusCalvin]

I tell crews who will test my city crawl they need to pay rent, and they are as far as can be from a legal job.

[@fightingfortruth9806]

Not really. Conan is always saving a girl or a relic to save the world too.

[@vercingetorix721]

When I run Conan games I always say “In Howard’s Conan, there’s two types of wizards. The evil ones, and the really evil ones.” 😂

[@BanditsKeep]

😂 nice!

[@willmistretta]

D&D's enduring fascination for me is probably due in large part to how it defies easy categorization. You have chunks of pretty much all major fantasy works in circulation in the '70s, the wargamer's amateur medievalism, a dash of the mythic Wild West, and no end of random pop culture bits and bobs (the portable hole from Looney Tunes, A.E. van Vogt's coeurl, random Hong Kong monster toys, etc.) all dumped into a blender and pureed. It's simultaneously all these things and none of them. Conan, Elric, Bilbo Baggins, Abraham Van Helsing, Turjan of Miir, and Kwai Chang Caine can team up to go seek their fortunes together on Barsoom? Sure! It was never going to totally "gel" in a way that would satisfy anyone in search of a rigorously coherent fictional universe, but damn does it make for a cool game if you're content to simply embrace the madness as a feature rather than a bug.

[@BanditsKeep]

Yes!

[@benjaminalexander7028]

Love to see all of the “I love all Bandit’s Keep videos!” comments after Prof DM’s video haha. I also do!

[@BanditsKeep]

At first I thought it was some weird bot 😂 I had missed that video - watched this morning, thanks!

[@KyleMaxwell]

I think it's important to distinguish (especially in sword & sorcery) between "good guys" (possibly iffy, especially looking back at Howard's writing), "heroes" (more typical in heroic fantasy), and protagonists, which are just the people that the stories are really about: good, bad, or otherwise. This is where anti-heroes come in: they do "good guy" things, but not necessarily for "heroic" reasons, and it's not relevant per se whether they're the protagonists.

[@BanditsKeep]

True

[@Martinkasmer]

Kane series by Karl Wagner is my fav.

[@gebatron604]

I think in sword & sorcery there is a strong contrast between the cruel and licentious cities and their treacherous sorcerers, and the brutal yet honest wilderness and their savage swordsmen.

[@BanditsKeep]

True - especially in the Conan tales

[@gebatron604]

@@BanditsKeep i think it also applies in westerns

[@thrash2429]

That’s certainly true in Conan stories. Barbarian vs civilization is a major theme there.

[@bobsavage3317]

Yes, and one more thing about the 1-4 character level (section starting about 11:45) is that, in terms of Genre, it makes more sense to call the earliest D&D levels "Horror", rather than "Adventure". You say it isn't Sword & Sorcery, because the characters are not "heroic" enough, but I would use "Horror" versus "Adventure" (or even "Heroic Adventure") genres to describe the effect of Power (Character Level) in D&D.

[@BanditsKeep]

Good point

[@thrash2429]

I think it can still be sword and sorcery if the characters aren’t powerful and heroic. Even Conan had to start somewhere. We see Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser’s origin stories and they make plenty of mistakes early on and get those they care about killed.

[@bobbycrosby9765]

I like grimdark fantasy. It gives players a reason to adventure without requiring severe character flaws or continually escalating world-ending events: they adventure to survive in an ugly world where might makes right.

[@Alche_mist]

I like feelgood heroic fantasy, where the heroes have their reason to adventure, but it focuses more on the "nicer" parts of adventuring. That doesn't mean everything is sunshine and rainbows and fluffy unicorns - just that being an adventurer is often neither a necessity nor a reason of massive fatal flaws, but possibly a self-exploring journey or a "I just think it's neat" situation. Think Asterix comics, but also the mentioned Fafhrd and Grey Mouser Sword&Sorcery or even the new DnD movie (Honor among Thieves).

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool

[@zipperman1448]

I barely dipped my toe into Sword & Sorcery genre, but from the two Elric books I've read, the "larger than life protagonist" definitely checks out. Love All the Bandit's Keep videos!

[@BanditsKeep]

For sure

[@tomkerruish2982]

I LOVE ALL BANDITS KEEP VIDEOS!

[@BanditsKeep]

Thank You!

[@ericjome7284]

Sword and sorcery is a human scale genre; a person with a sword fights other people, and rarely a monster like an animal. Magic affects people; an illusion to change appearance, a lot of fire, or some basic levitation or telekineses. A high magic epic genre has greater threats like dragons, demons, or wicked wizards. Magic portals, flying, mind control,shape shifting. The stakes are high.

[@sumdude4281]

Good point

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool - though if we are talking Conan - demons and monsters are not all that rare (for him to fight) though in the world they are

[@justinblocker730]

"I'm not a hero, I'm just a man that does heroic things" -Dan No super humans, just adventurers looking to make coin and retire early and (hopefully) alive.

[@BanditsKeep]

Indeec

[@zubbworks]

The Conan books were really cool. A mysterious world, a cool protag, THEWS. He fed a cannible to the cannible's cannible friends once.

[@BanditsKeep]

Indeed

[@hoek14179]

Currently reading though the Conan the Cimmerian books. It really helps to plant firm the meaning of Sword & Sorcery

[@BanditsKeep]

Awesome, such great stories

[@Slit518]

I LOVE Bandit's Keep content! Sword & Sorcery invokes a bit of pulp fiction, mystery, and intrigue. The good guys usually can cut through swaths of enemies while surviving against crazy odds. Each game session is self contained, like a one-shot, with a few spanning into several. They probably rely more on player skill & ability more than what is written on a character sheet, where large groups of magical items don't make the character, and perhaps more consumable items for the players to keep the "action" going.

[@BanditsKeep]

For sure

[@FlintFireforge]

I love anti-heroes, mostly due to Clint Eastwood. Anti-heroes, to me, are characters who are trying to live their lives until someone tries to make living their lives complicated, ex. A guy at bar having a drink just wants to have a drink, until two guys start fighting and bump into him, making him spill his drink. The anti-hero didn't care that these guys were fighting until it affected him being able to drink his beer. This is also true as you zoom out. The anti-hero doesn't care that a dragon is out terrorizing towns, until it's his town and he must join the party to stop the dragon. Great vid as always.

[@BanditsKeep]

Good point, not my thing, but I definitely understand it’s a popular trope

[@quiteunpleasant6473]

Great points! I think another great distinction between the genres is how magic, the supernatural and the fantastical are used in relation to solving plot conflicts. In High Fantasy (ex: Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms) they are usually a tool freely wielded to resolve conflict in the narrative and plot points; in Low Fantasy (ex: Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones) it is often less practical or defined, more mysterious, Gandalf is more of a wise mentor than a practical wizard snapping his fingers to get the Fellowship out of every trouble, Sting can glow and warn Frodo of Orcs but the magic in the sword is never the solution to any conflict; and finally in Sword & Sorcery it can go both ways, but there is often a sinister cost to wielding the supernatural and fantastical, and that's why it is usually a thing of the villains - brawn is the more noble and earthly way of resolving conflict, but magic is available albeit at a cost.

[@quiteunpleasant6473]

A great example of Sword & Sorcery in D&D is Dark Sun, and the novels (The Prism Pentad) are actually an exception to a point you made, in that they are very much large in scope and involve world-changing events, but it absolutely has the S&S vibes and follows your other point to a teeth of everything magical and supernatural being feared, forbidden and/or generally disliked, also having a cost. One of the protagonists, the one wizard, is definitely not your typical "good" hero, and she even falls to corruption and defiling to be able to wield magical power to rival the Sorcerer Kings.

[@BanditsKeep]

Indeed

[@w.lewisblack2704]

I love Bandit’s Keep content! (Appeasing the KZbin gods to keep Bandit’s Keep content high in my feed…)

[@BanditsKeep]

Thank You!

[@iremainteague5653]

Lol, I keep seeing these comments on rpg videos.

[@ken.droid-the-unique]

As always, prodding me to think more about this game of "make-believe" I love so much.

[@BanditsKeep]

It’s always fun to think about these games - such a range of ideas and fun

[@andrewjacobyii2853]

I would says it's a bit of all you mentioned power level of character(s), scope, etc. But yeah those first 4 levels are a bit of an origins story about why your character is so fascinating.

[@BanditsKeep]

Origin story is a good description

[@SpiritWolf1966]

I enjoy all of Bandit’s Keep videos

[@BanditsKeep]

Thank You!

[@perkinsdearborn4693]

I love Bandit's keep content. This is a great topic. I tend to read a lot. My players typically do not read every genre or as much as I do. It is fun to pull ideas from fiction and drop them on my players with a new skin or twist. They are often amazed and my brilliance - doh! Not me, I sit on the shoulders of real giants.

[@BanditsKeep]

I do the same

[@vincentmiller9555]

Thanks for covering a thought evocative topic! As I delve deeper into the realm of DMing, I am learning how important defining a genre at the table is. Can be the hidden tension between players or game if not discussed.

[@BanditsKeep]

True

[@Starhag]

I love all bandit's keep videos. Seriously.. keep doing your thing.

[@BanditsKeep]

Thank You!

[@Sichuanbeef]

I guess I think of Sword and Sorcery as magic users are primarily the bad guys. They have a supernatural power, which the hero, usually the sword wielder, has to vanquish with less than supernatural powers. Of course this stereotypes magic users as chaotic, or evil, and of course there are those in our game worlds that use magic for good. I guess right now since pretty much all classes wield magic in D&D 5e now, low magic, or what I think of as Sword and Sorcery are the opposite of that.

[@BDTMack]

Great video! I love all Bandit's Keep videos!

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks

[@briant7134]

I’d say one of the defining aspects of Sword and Sorcery is that magic is deep and powerful, but not broadly available and is seen as bad/corrupting as a result. Chronicles of the Black Company really highlights this, where even hedge witches are super dangerous to your average medieval town or unit of soldiers, let alone the powers wielded by god-like sorcerer/ess rules of empires. Also that series really blends the local and big picture, where yes all the immediate stories and issues are local, and sometimes the protagonists have little control over how events play out, but it always impacts a much larger scale in the end.

[@BanditsKeep]

For sure

[@Dreamfox-df6bg]

It's worth mentioning that in Sword and Sorcery the powerful wizards often became powerful by sacrificing people, praying to evil deities or steal their power from beings that are more powerful than they were, but they found these beings in some weakened state. So it's natural that people fear magic. As for aliens in fantasy, a webcomic made an interesting point. What is the difference between an alien and an other-dimensional being? They are both not of this world and usually wield powers beyond those of normal people. Just turn it around and let's say you have a traveller from another dimension using technology to do so and another one from another planet using magic, they are both aliens. The writers didn't make a point on the difference, because when it came to the story it didn't make one. Of course the reader might see a difference, but that doesn't change the story. Of course the technology shown wasn't as easy to use like a blaster you could just pick up and use. A bit of a tangent: The line blurs further when you enter what some people have termed 'Clarketech', technology that is indistinguishable from magic. One comic had an other-dimenisonal world full of magic which turned out to be artificial. Not even the D&D-like Druids had noticed this since the world was settled. If you take a little care, the readers or players might notice the difference between magic and technology, but it would not influence the story or the adventure. Of course it might be interesting to what the players do with the information that Star Trek level of technology is possible. Given the right stimulus a dwarf or an elf could live long enough to develop such technology and magic might help along the way as it can help do discover some things faster than someone could have with technology alone. Not to mention what both together could achieve.

[@macoppy6571]

So, a neighboring colony of Gnomes has been cursed as wererats. They have magi-tech for cooking, cleaning, communicating, and construction. The curse also gives them the work ethics of Goblins. If the PCs want to eat this winter, they have to find who has been stealing all the food and get it back.

[@BanditsKeep]

Interesting

[@artistpoet5253]

I go with S&S being more like Conan and MOTU where it's an antagonist with sorcery deceit vs. the protagonist with steel and honor. Epic Fantasy is more a domain level of play but not where magic is necessarily a component. It might exist but is centered around an intimate gathering of individuals. You could say that Star Wars is Epic Fantasy in the scope of the Galactic Civil War (Empire's POV) but yeah, even LOTR is EF.

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool

[@jamesstern9578]

Regarding what genre the first 4 levels of old school DnD falls into, it depends on if the focus is on dungeon crawling, or on overland adventures. In the former case, I think it falls into the genre of Weird Fiction. The second half of "At the Mountains of Madness" is basically a dungeon crawl through an alien city. You have relatively helpless characters up against a potentially terrifying, but magical, unknown. In the case of overland adventures, I think the genre would be "War Stories". Think "The Iliad", but instead of the PCs being Achilles, Diomed, and Hector, they are one of the many characters that are only mentioned once as they either are slain by a major character, or otherwise slay another minor character.

[@BanditsKeep]

I like this!

[@heroeshomebrew]

You can see both epic fantasy and sword and sorcery in Star Wars. Epic Fantasy - Luke saving the princess and blowing up the Death Star. Sword and Sorcery - Han doing the job to get enough credits to pay of Jabba and save his own butt.

[@BanditsKeep]

For sure

[@TimeLapsePrints]

The sense of scope is a good way of differentiating s&s from epic tales. I think D&D has become its own genre that blurs the lines between the two. It’s given rise to so many other TTRPGs that put their emphasis at different points along the spectrum. All of them are immediately recognizable as being some where on the spectrum AND in the “genre that is D&D. And the shadow cast by D&D across electronic gaming can’t be underestimated. My favorite examples would be games like golden axe or gauntlet. They aren’t really playing in the s&s to epic spectrum, but you know the D&D archetypes immediately and you understand the story you are participating in through a game like gauntlet. Golden axe is a sugary candy. Sour patch kids. A good D&D game or similar set of rules is going to give you a home baked sweet. Mmmm… brownies.

[@BanditsKeep]

Good point about electronic games - there are many in the fantasy realm, I just have very little experience

[@carltonbauheimer]

I LOVE LAMP.

[@BanditsKeep]

Lamp?

[@carltonbauheimer]

@@BanditsKeep yeah it's a line from the movie Anchorman. A bunch of characters are listing things they love and then one of them shouts "I love lamp!"

[@AgranakStudios]

I love anti-heroes because I want to believe that even though I am a "less than" human, that I can still do the right thing in the end.

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool

[@TheGladGolem]

Bandit’s Keep videos are awesome!

[@BanditsKeep]

Thank You!

[@brentnorton1602]

I love all Bandit’s Keep videos.

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks!

[@NegativeHeadspace]

Here's another awesome video! Excellent job Daniel. I enjoyed hearing your thoughts here. Keep em coming!

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks

[@NegativeHeadspace]

@@BanditsKeep welcome

[@PMandrekar]

Hey. I saw you at the next table over and didn't want to disrupt your game, but I did recognize you from your channel. We were both at GaryCon this past week. Just wanted to relay to you how much I appreciate this channel, and I would have told you as much in person, but I was playing in one game (Classic Traveller) and you were running another this past Sunday Morning. Best of wishes!!

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks so much! Traveller is something I really want to try - perhaps next year we will share a table

[@YOOTOOBjase]

I mix quite a few. I've designed a fairly genre agnostic system, and our setting has horror, fantasy, swords and magic, technology, etc. It's fun to mix things up

[@BanditsKeep]

Nice!

[@malk4803]

I'd like to hear your thoughts on sci fi and science fantasy!

[@BanditsKeep]

Great topic. And a big one

[@cjerowe]

I think those first few levels are essentially survival horror. Characters are facing threats that are above their pay grade and doing what they need to survive. The best strategies are typically to avoid combat, be clever to get treasure, and 'level up' to actually be able to face threats head-on.

[@BanditsKeep]

Good point

[@AndyReichert0]

when i hear "epic fantasy", i think of anime or superhero type of powers/villains/trope-breaking, whereas "sword & sorcery" makes me think, ironically, of a more lord of the rings feel: low power, classic tropes. and i think you're right that it also often comes down to the local-ness vs epic-ness of a problem.

[@BanditsKeep]

For sure

[@AndyReichert0]

@@BanditsKeep i like the points you raised on who gets to use the magic being just as genre-shaping as the power level. never thought of that one, but that's true. i think the answer to your question of "what do we call the early levels where the characters aren't yet larger than life?" would be "dark fantasy" if we're still talking classic d&d style fantasy. even if it's not an overtly tragic and low-magic world, the fact that the characters could be cut down easily adds a seriousness to it.

[@mathewstoker2131]

The storytelling, in my sandbox. Of a homebrew world, which is nearly 30 years old. In it I strive for the feel of semi-grounded; High, Dark Fantasy. Informed by 80's through the 90's of Fantasy and Sci-Fi movies and T.V. Robert E Howard, and other pulp and fantasy novelists. Also; I was being sent pulp comics, from England until my early teens. Commando and some others, whose names escape me. Old school Gygaxian worldbuilding, coupled with the ability to think critically. Themes of travel and Exploration. That dwarfs the Remembered Realms. Overlaid with the backdrops of the North Americas, for climate and rough topography. Peopled with and exploring Native American, Celtic, English, Norse and Roman mythologies. That's been my last, 30 odd years as DM.

[@BanditsKeep]

Sounds amazing to me

[@BanjoSick]

masters of the universe is also Sword&Sorcery and has tons of tech.

[@BanditsKeep]

Heck yeah!

[@jimmybrook7119]

I love bandits keep videos.

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks

[@Akinohotarubi]

Nice. I had this conversation a while back and I struggled to define genres.

[@BanditsKeep]

It can be tough

[@timsanty3052]

Thanks Daniel! This is a great discussion. You produce awesome content!

[@BanditsKeep]

Thank You!

[@elfbait3774]

A very interesting question indeed. I have been running my first streamed game, a sword and sorcery game I call "By the Sword" and it has been an interesting endeavor to try to capture the essence of sword and sorcery in D&D, especially using OSE (B/X). I have modified the system a bit, using some rules found in the old TSR Conan and Red Sonja rules but the power gap at low levels is really something that is a challenge to run. As much as D&D was inspired by sword and sorcery fictions, I'm not sure it is really the best game for the true feeling of the genre. To do so with D&D and similar games does really call for starting play at a higher level so as to come close to the capabilities of a sword & sorcery hero. The lack of readily available magic and all that comes with it is also another obstacle to making D&D a proper fit. Even the concept of an adventuring party works against it. In the end, what i strive for is a world that feel sword & sorcery even if it may not portray the action in way that is loyal to the source material. It is an interesting challenge to conceive of low-level (in D&D terms) adventures that a group of heroes can go on that fits the flavor of the genre. So far, I feel it has been going pretty well and I have written several short adventures in the hopes that the campaign goes on for some time. When I am working on an adventure, I try to start with style and then work out the details to fit. I tend to make sword and sorcery adventures shorter and less involved as if they had to fit in the short page count of a Weird Tales story. I am careful to make the encounters manageable by the "low-magic" party as well as accounting for the lesser hP of low-level characters. I also try to remember that most of the powerful enemies face by sword and sorcery heroes tend to be defeated through craft, guile and wit rather than direct sword play and write encounters with this in mind. A powerful enemy may have a weakness that can be learned or might only have so much power to use. Some supernatural enemies might have only a tenuous hold on their place in reality and might slip out of the Material Plane if only they can be kept busy long enough. Also, always remember. If there is water, there is something in it and there is ALWAYS A snake.

[@BanditsKeep]

Great points, I tend to keep the adventures tight (like short stories) as well when going for this style

[@salgarellius7434]

Those 4 first lvls are probably dark fantasy. A gritty deadly version

[@BanditsKeep]

True

[@EpicoLirico]

I love your content, I hope it gets more attention.

[@BanditsKeep]

Thank You!

[@mekskraptrakkz5718]

I feel like reluctant hero is better for what you were trying to describe than antihero. One never wants to be a hero but is forced into it, the other will do the right thing but only if they benefit

[@BanditsKeep]

For sure

[@B42UC4]

In D&D5e, which is the one I have played and run the most, I would say the Tiers of Play define the genre, similar to what happens in BECMI: Tier 1 (Levels 1-4): Pulp and Sword & Sorcery. Tier 2 (Levels 5-10): Epic Fantasy. Tier 3 (Levels 11-16): I would say this falls into the realm of Star Wars in scope, where stories focus on the Politics of Nations and the Heroes are the chosen ones in the World. Tier 4 (Levels 17-20): I can't think of any Genre that goes so big as this one, where Heroes travel the Multiverse and shape Reality itself. I guess this is akin to the I in BECMI, where Heroes become Gods. Cheers!

[@BanditsKeep]

Nice breakdown!

[@Jeromy1986]

I think genre in D&D is about magic level mostly, some of it could also be additional rules that might need to be applied to the base system such as naval combat or mass combat or sanity.

[@BanditsKeep]

Interesting

[@tunin6844]

I'm not sure if it is just a part of the "scope" difference between the 2 genres, but I would also say that magic is usually a bit more constrained in sword & sorcery. That doesn't mean it isn't dangerous, of course. Often, it is (or has the reputation of being) dangerous to the wielder as well. Some game systems lean into that with skill checks to cast and some really nasty random effects on a fumble.

[@BanditsKeep]

Interesting- not sure roll to cast lines up with the fiction, but I guess it creates danger

[@markt2021]

Coming from rural place, you feel as if you may have known first and second level characters. It's more of a sword and sorcery situation, just not as gonzo. Some I knew were more like the Wood-elves in The Hobbit, who "dwelt most often by the edges of the woods, from which they could escape at times to hunt, or to ride and run over the open lands by moonlight or starlight..."

[@BanditsKeep]

Nice

[@christopherdecator9742]

Its interesting to think about game genre as it relates to literary genre. I'm not sure these things are 1 to1, though there is a large overlap as one thing informs the other. It's easier to talk about genre in terms of setting. D&D comes with the conceit that PCs start relatively humble and grow in ability, and failure and death is possible with a varying likelihood. While, As mentioned, heroes like Conan, or say, Ged from Earthsea, are prodigious characters who are either archetypal (conan) or dynamic (Ged). And scope is an interesting consideration, but again, scope in the traditional D&D context, changes as PCs attain greater levels and graduate to domain play, or adventure in new planes of existence. Genre, to me is a shorthand that sets the tone, and it's best used to describe the setting. Just saying "high fantasy" is going to evoke a set of ideas in one utterance and "Gothic Horror" others.

[@BanditsKeep]

Good points

[@taranthyll]

I completely agree that sword & sorcery fiction differs from epic fantasy in its scope, but I think we have to modify the definition slightly for gaming. I believe that characters in sword & sorcery campaigns differ from characters in epic fantasy campaigns in their motivation. Characters in sword & sorcery campaigns tend to be motivated less by heroism and doing good deeds, and more by personal gain. Let's say we conceive an adventure with a dragon that has been terrorizing the countryside. Characters in an epic campaign will be motivated to slay the dragon in order to save the townsfolk from the beast's ravages and become heroes of the land. Characters in a S & S campaign will be motivated by a desire to loot the dragon's treasure hoard. What is essentially the same set-up for an adventure will feel and play out very differently depending on the tone of the campaign. Not only are S & S characters less motivated by the desire to save the townsfolk and be hailed as heroes, killing the dragon may not be a priority for them. If they can distract the dragon, slip in and steal the treasure without fighting it, that might be even better as far as they are concerned. I do strongly disagree that sword & sorcery as a genre is dependent upon power level. While you've chosen as examples Conan and Fafhrd and Gray Mouser, not all sword & sorcery stories feature protagonists of epic ability. I regard Robert Asprin's Thieves' World series as a sword & sorcery anthology, but with often very ordinary protagonists. Furthermore, while Fafhrd and Gray Mouser became the greatest swordsmen of their time, they didn't start out that way. In The Snow Women, Fafhrd is just a youth, and is not even the greatest warrior in his village, let alone the world. Similarly, in The Unholy Grail, we are introduced to Gray Mouser as an unimposing sorcerer's apprentice. Conan, too, began his career as a youth of fifteen at the sack of Venarium, and his early exploits were filled with misadventure which he survived by luck and willpower more than prowess. Leiber's protagonists grow to power over the course of their stories, just as D&D characters do over the course of a campaign. Sword & sorcery is about tone and style, and a D&D campaign is either sword & sorcery or it isn't right from first level on.

[@BanditsKeep]

Good points - I’m not sure Conan and company could ever be killed by a single giant rat though 😊

[@sumdude4281]

Like all your videos! Great video. Tubes might be an intercom system...going back in the way back machine to my school days.

[@BanditsKeep]

Indeed

[@direden]

I think that's a great point. S&S isn't necessarily low magic... but magic is "not good" ...evil or chaotic. I've definitely used factions in the past to create a dark fantasy setting. Making magic illegal and Witch Hunter or Knightly factions that enforce the laws and persecute magic-users.

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool. I enjoy the “magic is illegal” thing especially when you’ve got some heroes who need to use magic to do good things

[@retu3510]

I defined sword & sorcery as "carnal sweaty bronze age" Works for me :)

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool

[@EnDungeoned]

Most accurate definition I've seen here.

[@thrash2429]

It’s not always Bronze Age though. In Conan, medieval, ancient and stone-age societies all exist, for instance. Most weapons are iron or steel.

[@LordCthulhu01]

I wish more games would stick to their genre if they publish it as part of the ad-copy. Thanks for the clarifications.

[@BanditsKeep]

Indeed

[@nutherefurlong]

I like a lot of these, although in my mind the amount of people tackling the goal can vary depending on the story. Like I can think of at least in epic fantasy where they rely on maybe one person who is special enough to save the world. And more rarely but still important to RPGs at least, a relatively minor goal still needing a lot of people working together to accomplish. It's more common in like heist movies maybe but you can port over some of that to like a fantasy RPG pretty easily, even if it's less a heist and more infiltrating a castle or raiding a well-guarded dungeon. Fun to think about, thanks Also: Great split on levels. I think the start would be Horror, then Expertise, then Epic, maybe. Horror would be the funnels in a lot of games, generating "final girls" etc that survive and become tough for the next challenge. Thinking Ash between Evil Dead 2 and Army of Darkness, where I think he has a few screws loose after experiencing all of that horror but he's also more willing to fight things head on

[@BanditsKeep]

Good points

[@AndyReichert0]

so many good points in the video! it makes me wonder... was the original Star Wars trilogy such an appealing fantasy story because it's right on the border of epic fantasy and sword & sorcery? it kind of has the coolest elements of both.

[@BanditsKeep]

True!

[@nathanaelthomas9243]

Thanks for the video, I really enjoyed it!

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks for watching

[@Sindhrohan]

Love the content. Love bandit's keep channel

[@BanditsKeep]

Thank You!

[@MuskyPickle]

In terms of TRPGs, do rule sets and playstyles constitute genres? Is B/X a genre? 5E? Is there a Grognard genre? Do dice mechanics count or are we strictly talking about themes and setting. Great thought provoking topic.

[@BanditsKeep]

Good question - I would think setting and play define it, but certainly rules can help us lean into certain tropes

[@Robert-bm2jr]

Love the videos. Keep 'em coming. You always make me think. To me, Sword and Sorcery is about attaining that larger than life status. Start humble but get more epic.

[@BanditsKeep]

Well said!

[@aproy42]

I would say that levels 1-4 are mostly the common man fighting to overcome something. Levels 5-10 are sword and sorcery 11-15 is a dispute between 2 or more kingdoms but not the world. Levels 16-20 is like Lord of the Rings and 20+ is god shenanigans or multiverse nonsense.

[@BanditsKeep]

Makes sense

[@darcyw156]

Love how your vids make me think

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks

[@killroy3367]

I love bandits keep videos⚔️

[@BanditsKeep]

Thank You!

[@kontrarien5721]

Levels 1-4 = survival horror. :)

[@BanditsKeep]

Perhaps!

[@Xplora213]

Yes. This. It’s also a serious reason that games usually finish by level 6, because that survival horror phase is done and dusted. I can see a reason for BX ending so soon as well if dragons only have 60hp.

[@thrash2429]

Another thing that’s common in sword and sorcery is that protagonists are usually human. If there are non-humans they’re usually antagonists (similar to magic-use being mostly confined to antagonists). Anyway, I think you’re right to an extent, but I think sword and sorcery is intrinsically tied to setting and that setting is usually low fantasy as well. Think about the Forgotten Realms. That’s a very very high-fantasy setting with all the different races and magic being so common people barely notice it. I don’t think you could run sword and sorcery in FR because the setting is working against it. Even if you keep scope very local, it’s not going to feel right. Lord of the Rings, on the other hand, is certainly epic fantasy, and I’d say high fantasy, but it’s not as high-magic as people think. Wizards are very rare and are immortal angel-like beings rather than being mortals who use magic. And even then, we see very little obvious spell-casting like we see in D&D or even Vance’s Dying Earth series.

[@BanditsKeep]

Indeed

[@andrewhaldenby4949]

Daniel thank you! Is there something to be said about experience points? Conan, Fafhrd, Gray Mouser wanted treasure! Gold for XP. Thorin, Frodo, Aragorn did have treasure but really they were on epic quests. Milestones for XP

[@BanditsKeep]

True!

[@adrianwebster6923]

For me, the magic in both sword and sorcery and epic fantasy is pervasive. Dael Kingsmill mentions this in one of her videos as her view of magic and I think it applies to both genres too. However, magic in S&S is more dangerous and less accessible. It is pervasive but there is a greater threshold to access it and sometimes greater personal sacrifice required. The bad guys as you note, are often more willing to make the sacrifices or they find unsavory ways to access it. Sacrificing others for the power etc.

[@BanditsKeep]

True

[@shamanspointofview8083]

0:00 how about the section in the dmg that describes fantasy and other type settings, I don’t know, maybe don’t reinvent the wheel 😂

[@BanditsKeep]

Not sure I agree with that section personally.

[@shamanspointofview8083]

@@BanditsKeep it’s probably the thing 5e got more right than most, they even list references to known media that is that setting, don’t have to agree, but they are the norms outside of ttrpgs even, including books and movies

[@jacknerdlord3244]

I love these videos.

[@BanditsKeep]

Thank You!

[@Nobleshield]

I actually hate how Sword & Sorcery means "low magic" to people. I only read the first book from Leiber but in Fahfrd and the Grey Mouser there is absolutely magic, and potentially strong magic too (Fahfrd's mother and her ice magic springs to mind). Compare to Conan's style where it's basically "magic is evil" which is why virtually every sorcerer in REH's stories are generally evil wizards or even if they're not "evil" consort with demons and other evil things. I like the tone idea a lot; in epic fantasy you're out to save the land (whether your kingdom or the whole world) from evil and be a "hero". S&S you're generally out to get fame/fortune or do something else for yourself, not the world at large. That doesn't mean you can't be a hero; Conan certainly is heroic, but he's not doing what he does to be a great hero, he's doing it because he wants to get rich or wants fame, not because he's fighting for truth, justice, and the Hyborean way.

[@BanditsKeep]

For sure

[@PearlJamaholic]

For me the difference is in feel and atmosphere. Sword and Sorcery is forbidden knowledge and secret cults Epic Fantasy is legends and history. A goblin in Epic Fantasy everyone is aware of the creatures, or at least heard stories of their existence. In Sword and Sorcery goblins are these unknown creatures the heroes stumble upon, and they live and hide in the shadows. A goblin raid is a rumor of some unknown horror, creatures that crawled out the the abyss and unleashed on the world. Epic Fantasy a goblin raid is like a pack of wolves, everyone knows they could damage a farm community if they came through, people know its a possibility living outside the city walls.

[@BanditsKeep]

Great points!

[@markhill3858]

The genres of DnD .. are actually a mix of everything the grognards had minis for that they could put on their table. Dinosaurs, robots, statues, plastic jungle animals .. you name it. Plus other original crap made from chinasaurs and such :) Gothic vampire stories, pseudo historical fantasy based on the 100 years war, pulps, myths from every culture, science fantasy like flash gordon, not just a little of LotR too .. Its a frankensteins monster kitchen sink of ALL genres .. and its become a unique genre of its own out of this crucible of bullsht :) All praise the DND GENRE! Imitated by many, usually unsuccessfully .. only DnD does the DnD genre well :)

[@BanditsKeep]

Indeed

[@ghosto3624]

I think 1-4 levels is mudcore!

[@BanditsKeep]

Indeed

[@f.a.santiago1053]

I miss Thundarr!!

[@BanditsKeep]

Me too!

[@DeadMarsh]

I honestly think all of Tolkiens works are not epic fantasy…if that’s the case-all other “Epic fantasy” really fails to measure up. I’m an avid fantasy/S&S reader and have read Tolkiens works every year for the last 15 years around Christmas. The lord of the rings has epic elements…but it also has Sword and sorcery elements.

[@BanditsKeep]

What Elements are sword and sorcery?

[@DeadMarsh]

Subtle sorcery or magic, maybe not as subtle as what’s in Leibers or Howard’s works. Bad guys being associated with sorcery. While there are powerful patrons in the books that work good magic-Sorcery and Necromancy are nearly always associated with Melkor, Saruman, The witch King, and Sauron. Low magic, After the fall of both Numenorian kingdoms and the events of Angmar-magic is practically superstition among common folk who are all in isolated communities far from other outsiders. There is thievery, adventure, treasure hunting, and dungeon delving. The Lord of the rings is special in the sense that it has elements of many things. Yet, I can not put it in a S&S box just as I can’t put it in an epic fantasy box. As many times as I’ve read it-to this day I still can’t find anywhere it truly fits despite how widely its influence reaches.

[@BJBoyd]

Great video. I am often left scratching my head at people who claim D&D needs to emulate the stories of Howard and Leiber, but then insist your characters need to start as pathetic weaklings.

[@BanditsKeep]

For sure, the greatest swordsmen in the world! But start with a rolling pin fighting rats 😊

[@dlmcnamara]

Levels 1-4 happen before anyone writes books about the characters....

[@BanditsKeep]

Yes!

[@caitlinangelette3751]

Conan is more like a hero in the Classical sense. One who does heroic (aka great) deeds. They may or may not be moral, but that’s not what heroes are. Conan and Odysseus are very similar.

[@BanditsKeep]

True

[@fightingfortruth9806]

Some Conan stories are localized, but just as many take place involving world changing wars. And characters and villains DO continue to show up in different stories. Other S&S books are even bigger in scope. Take the Gor series for example where every book has a huge, epic scale. So I don't think scope is truly the difference. Between S&S and Epic Fantasy. The true difference is maturity. S&S is more gritty and grim.

[@BanditsKeep]

True, there are wars, but few have the type of thing we see in LOTR.

[@FoxxTrick]

Mindset

[@BanditsKeep]

Indeed

[@clericcabingames]

I'm not sure terms like Genre help when it comes to tabletop RPGs. I personally prefer Appendix N and Touchstones, I find those far more valuable as a barometer for what a game brings to the table.

[@BanditsKeep]

How would you use appendix N? So many different styles of stories there

[@fwdrpg]

I'd use appendix N in a way similar to touchstones, as a list of fiction that I'm drawing from as I plan the campaign

[@BanditsKeep]

@@fwdrpg that makes sense - do you point the players towards specific works or just the general idea of appendix N being a mix of fantasy and science/ weird fiction?

[@clericcabingames]

@@BanditsKeep I'd point them towards specific works depending on the kind of campaign I'm shooting for, but I'd add a tableau of connection points that I'm ruminating as I'm thinking about my campaign (sorry for commenting on both accounts lol)

[@Doodle1776]

I love sword and sorcery. Though I hated the Grey Mouser series as I found the writing to be piss poor. Constantly talking about stuff that doesn't matter or important stuff just left out for you to just believe that it happened without explanation. Every time I got into it and thought, "now it's finally getting good" it would get bad again and kill it for me. But high fantasy can have a sword and sorcery feel. Tolkien's stories have a sword and sorcery feel because they're gritty and magic isn't as common as a household toaster. It's still practiced by few. Dennis L McKiernan follows this same style where magic exists but it's dangerous and practiced by few. Granted, these stories have more fantastical races than stuff like Howard wrote but they are still sword and sorcery-like themes in their tone.

[@BanditsKeep]

Hmm interesting take.

[@jimmybrook7119]

I enjoyed the Fafhrd and Grey Mouser stuff. Gygax lifted all the thieves tropes from his work - guilds and thieves cant etc. Judging Liebers novels by todays standards is like judging black and white films of old. Each to their own though.

[@Doodle1776]

@@jimmybrook7119 I tried so hard to like them but just gave up after a couple of stories. He placed massive details and explanations into little stuff that didn't matter, then hand waved more important details as simply having happened with no explanation at to how or why, we were just supposed to accept that they happened. Putting in massive details of characters that never really mattered and introducing other ones that were supposed to matter with no reason why we should care. And like the One Piece world, there was no consistency to what did or didn't exist or the understanding of stuff. I sat there scratching my head wondering why these were considered such good books.

[@intevolver]

A well written character may have the traits of an anti-hero, but an anti-hero is rarely well-written. It's starting from the wrong end of the character. An element of Sword and Sorcery I perceive is an antiquated sense of heroism - characters aren't heroes because of their alignments or aspirations, but because they keep surviving against unnatural and escalating odds while retaining their humanity.

[@BanditsKeep]

Indeed

[@mutantmoth]

I agree with you about Sword and Sorcery not necessarily meaning low magic. I mean, sorcery is right there in the title! Like you said, it really comes down to scope. Great video!

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks!

[@dantherpghero2885]

I despise all weavers of the black arts. Give me a good length of steel and a foe that can bleed.

[@BanditsKeep]

Yes!

[@colemcmullen3904]

I prefer smaller scale games. The players should know the people they're interacting with, or at least see them as people. Saving generic npcs provokes generic player responses.

[@BanditsKeep]

True - the more people you save the less each of them is “real”

[@negatron313]

I love all BANDIT'S KEEP videos

[@BanditsKeep]

Thank You!