How do we fix the zoo?

[@Vox]

Have you always wanted to be in a Vox video? If you have a question like Gaurav’s, something that keeps you up at night, or confuses you about the news, share it with us! We’re excited to make a whole series of videos answering questions directly from you. Hit us up! Let’s get some answers 👉 forms.gle/ATu6kYgKNaEXSr3UA And please note, we’re only accepting video submissions right now! No text-only questions will be considered.

[@lovelylipbonesouwwwwwwwolv2198]

oh

[@haitiancreolewithluciano]

This is a great initiative! Love it!

[@learningformyreptiles1195]

I am a scientist out of st. Louis and I sent you guys a message on fb massager. I have been doing video studies on herpculture

[@sarakhan3734]

why do whiteners have that ozone safe formula written on them?

[@Hermes_Agoraeus]

I'm surprised the video didn't mention or attempt to distinguish human attitudes about conservation among age groups. I suspect young children's empathy for animals increases greatly from seeing them directly, but I wouldn't ask them to fill out a survey about it.

[@AnilSaulnier]

In my life, I've found the closest thing to a perfect compromise to be wildlife rehabilitation centers. The ones here in Maine have permanent enclosures for animals who are unable to return to the wild that work as a public zoo. It evokes the same feeling in me that seeing lions in Boston did as a child, but I feel less guilty and I know the animals are living the best life available to them. The rush of seeing exotic animals is replaced with the intimacy of getting to know the animals that live with you in your ecosystem. As a bonus, All of the money spent there goes to the care and protection of your community. If you still want exotic animals, you will experience them better in documentaries or by travelling, where they live closer to the lives they are meant for.

[@pyRoy6]

Theoretically, I think you're onto something. In practice, this just means that zoos rebrand themselves (as they already do) and seek out animals to "rescue," and put on display for profit. Granted, many zoos will respond by operating as non-profits, but you have to look at a budget breakdown (especially the executive salaries) to get a real picture of whether or not they are even remotely altruistic.

[@WellBattle6]

And then there are pandas, which by default are in a for profit breeding program because all of the pandas outside of China are on rent.

[@pyRoy6]

@@WellBattle6 I'm sure many animals of different species are loaned out from "non-profit" "conservation" facilities to for-profit facilities, often as breeding stock. I know for sure it happens with whales.

[@mrducky2550]

Gray Animal Park!!! I love that place!

[@AnilSaulnier]

@@pyRoy6 there are already places like this, with fully transparent books. No need to only focus on bad actors

[@toes3286]

I remeber seeing a polar bear doing that at the zoo when I was a kid. I thought it was funny at first but quickly got concerned when I noticed he just kept repeating over and over. I am now working towards a PhD to help better the lives of animals in captivity

[@GregHuffman1987]

Sounds like the zoo was a benefit to you

[@Antonh.]

I did see the same thing with a polar bear in Copenhagen. Made me wonder if it was a robot... It looked sad that it did the same thing the whole 4-6 hours (jumping down, turning around and going up on a rock and repeat).

[@magmitejadeexo2530]

Thank you so much i feel so bad for animals in zoo

[@pdxdonut]

Do you eat animals?

[@magmitejadeexo2530]

@@pdxdonut well i eat cooked version

[@hambatuhan3165]

I like that Vox actually listened to their subscribers and also included them in their video

[@Planetmango48]

Ok

[@Hanz_Otto]

well yeah but... its could be that Vox don't know what to upload as well lol

[@ahmedzain5720]

Its not as simple as it seems. They might have just found a good match and then asked them to subscribe or something idk lol

[@flaviolatino9038]

@@Hanz_Otto I don’t think so hahaha 😅 they’re just very good with content strategy, they have plenty of videos just waiting for the right time to be uploaded

[@PHlophe]

@@Hanz_Otto fred fan service is helpful. You'd be chuffed if you were a part of it too.

[@scottficklin6132]

"Do zoos help people want to learn how to protect animals?" "Well one survey one time shows that people gave a different answer when they exit than when they entered so no it doesn't help." What? I can't figure out how that leap was made. For all we know, it was statistically insignificant. Or they just wanted to list a different answer than earlier. This topic deserved a real effort at answering these questions and it was so superficial that Vox didn't need to involve any experts at all.

[@octaviusv]

Is there a reason why the boredom issue was dismissed as obvious? Like, yeah, zoos can create unstimulating and bad environments for animals, but are there zoos that have been successful at combating this? San Diego, for instance? The existence of wildlife sanctuaries tells me there's something possible here, but can zoos become more like that? Would have loved to see a slightly more in-depth examination of the assertion that zoos are necessarily bad for cognitively complex creatures.

[@T9Parker]

This was exactly what I was thinking during the whole video. Animal enrichment is not alien to us, some zoos provide sufficient stimulation to the animals. It really rubbed me the wrong way when it was stated as obvious that the animals suffer in all zoos.

[@renan6181]

Good point. In my opinion this segment was quite superficial and quick to draw conclusions or to dismiss hypotheses. This topic is surely more complex than that.

[@sevensongs]

Yes, so much of the boredom issue is about space, habitat design, and social stimulation for the animals. Many zoos have started the process over the past two decades expand and improve their habitats. Some haven't. But it is a slow process, and each habitat takes years. However, I'd love to see evaluations done to evaluate how effective these habitat changes have been. If they have been as effective as the designers hope for, then that is a path not even touched on in this video.

[@isaiahromero9861]

Yea this just seems very unprofessional and surface level, the only thing this video made "obvious" is the biases of the writer

[@octaviusv]

@@isaiahromero9861 Well it might be that boredom is inevitable but they couldn't get the researchers in! Or something! But It's just a little disappointing they didn't address one of the big questions. I do think the question they did answer was interesting.

[@claramaeb]

Due to the constraints of the video, I don't think your first point was investigated quite as thoroughly as it could be. Zoos do a lot of research using their captive animals which massively benefits wild populations. Things like testing equipment that would be attached to wild animals, studying social interactions, inventing and testing new medical treatments, and lots more that the public is not generally aware of. Zoos also use most of their profits to research and protect wild animals through population rehabilitation programs, habitat conservation, and much more. While I agree certain animals should only be kept in captivity if the zoos are incredibly dedicated to prioritising the happiness of their animals, I think it is unfair to say that captive animals do not do anything to actively benefit wild populations and I think many people underestimate the use zoos have as academic and scientific centres for zoologists.

[@EmmaVB82]

1000% agree. I work at a conservation charity that also happens to run two zoos, with a higher education institute as part of the same organisation that runs about 6 separate masters courses (in association with other universities and institutes), as well as supporting a number of PhDs. Wild animal health (and health of the environment) is an enormous focus of research for my org and in making an impact on the world, and the conservation part of the organisation operates a bunch of offices and projects all around the world, including a lot of programmes working with local communities to build sustainable solutions to problems they’re facing that can come into conflict with the needs of wildlife. A delegation from my org recently went to the UN Biodiversity COP 15, and lead a number of panels and sessions. The vast amount of research undertaken by both the science and conservation branches across a hugely varied set of disciplines related to animals (both animal husbandry and wildlife), habitats, and the interactions between both of those things and people, have a definite positive impact on wildlife conservation. Obviously a sizeable chunk of the zoos’ income will go to supporting the upkeep of the zoos and welfare of the animals, and on staff costs and central services like IT (this is where I work)/HR/finance (like any organisation), but conservation and the protection of wildlife is kind of the driving force underneath it all. I absolutely thought that zoos were a net negative for the world until I started working here (and was skeptical about even taking the interview because I felt like it went against my beliefs), but I did my research about the good they do and was comfortable taking the job, and I’m continually learning about all the myriad ways they’re very much a net positive. It’s important to note that there are plenty of zoos that *don’t* do a good job in either animal welfare or with conservation, but if a zoo is a member of an organization like BIAZA, EAZA, and so on, they have to uphold strong standards in what they do. I’m not an expert on any of this (I literally work in IT!), but I’ve learned a lot and become more interested from working there over the years. This video massively oversimplifies the arguments and only looks at this from a couple of narrow angles, which is a shame because I was looking forward to a properly researched and objective analysis of the topic, like many of Vox videos achieve! I don’t think the idea of having a “reserve population” of animals in zoos is even remotely about taking those animals bred in captivity and releasing them - that’s bonkers, and quite rightly explained as to why that wouldn’t work!

[@biosparkles9442]

As a conservation biologist who would not be able to do the work I do without the support of zoos, I completely agree.

[@madisonprice5677]

source?

[@KamikazeCarbine]

Exactly, and the point about captive populations completely ignores its purpose. Its not there so they can just be thrown back to the wild one day... it's there so that the animals don't go globally extinct.

[@tinooberle6972]

Show me just one piece of evidence that zoos use “most of their profits” to protect habitats and do research. That is just not happening and I get so sick of people defending zoos with that argument…

[@szymon3989]

As a zookeeper, I feel a bit bitter that you haven't mentioned that most animals who show signs of stress (stereotype) come from circuses. It's a psychological illness and we can't do much about it. Sadly, animals who suffer from that will never stop showing it. The years of abuse in circuses cannot be reversed even if they have the best care and plenty of enrichment. I think it's great that you talk about animal boredom in captivity but what's also worth saying, is that zoos do a lot of training and enrichment for animals under our care. Most zoos do a great job of improving the quality of life of our animals. Also, zoos can take part in breeding and conservation programs in other ways than reintroducing animals back into the wild. Many zoos lead programs in natural habitats or pay for those programs, so we can learn more about animals and natural habitats and do better. It's really difficult to discuss the zoo industry in general, because every zoo is different.

[@mark48430]

IMO most of the answers to these questions can be answered by the people who work with the animals every day, not the zoo owners or the general public.

[@kw7378a1]

I wish there had been more exploration of different zoos. Some are worse than others in terms of giving adequate space and enrichment.

[@kaitlyn__L]

@@kw7378a1 yeah I found it a little odd how all the illustrations and discussions are about places with lots of small enclosures. It is possible to make zoos that are built more like animal sanctuaries or huge parks with a few small clusters of buildings for toilets and refreshments. I honestly thought that was going to be their conclusion when they mentioned the sanctuaries - to merge the two, with small-medium meeting/crossover places for humans the animals can choose to be in or not. Though focusing on smaller species is often employed in those styles too I’ve noticed, from an outside perspective. Like a few acres for meerkats rather than a bunch of bigger mammals. So it’s not like I entirely disagree with the ending but it just felt very incomplete to me.

[@GearsOfCake]

"The years of abuse in circuses cannot be reversed even if they have the best care and plenty of enrichment". Wouldn't it be better to just put them down then and end their suffering?

[@belgianwizard6114]

@@GearsOfCake I suppose it's difficult to measure how bad they are suffering. We can not read their minds, and physically they are perfectly healthy. It's a tough choice for us humans to put them down because we THINK they must be miserable.

[@jeandanielodonnncada]

ECHO is a freshwater aquarium in Burlington, Vermont. I remember being suspicious of how much fun my kids and I would have looking at animals that live locally in a lake, hardly "exotic." But it was so well presented and then I learned how much I didn't see of what Lake Champlain had! I was blown away at how big fresh water fish could be. We had a great time. And when we did learn about habitat protection, it was local. I had very parallel experiences with Zoo Ecomuseum in Montréal, which is all injured and rescued local fauna.

[@pyrytoivonen3237]

As a biologist I think it was very unfair to cross out the "help wild populations" because of low amount of programmes. Genetic conservation was not discussed at all. The zoo network maintains good genetic diversity which in fact can be restored with help of zoos. Also the low amount of programmes is mainly caused by lack of funding.

[@macybon23]

I agree, I feel like this video was not very fair. Everyone is so quick to jump on the "zoos are evil" bandwagon without looking into this much further. And there is a difference between an accredited zoo and a non-accredited zoo in regards to research and conservation and animal welfare and educational outreach. To do this topic justice there should have been more investigation, and the answer quite simply is not simple. There isn't a yes or no, but we can make some distinctions between roadside attraction style "zoos" and institutions like the San Diego Zoo. To lump every zoo and every aquarium into one group like this was not fair.

[@thepinoz]

My main argument against zoos is that any pro I came across, including your I'm sure valid point, doesn't justify hurting the individuals themselves, the animals that clearly suffer. It truly is a "do ends justify the means" issue to me

[@cormoranoimperatore8413]

@@thepinoz the question is if we can have ethical types of zoos then, like where the animals are held captive but with all the sufficient care and attention and means to live a good and healthy life for them, or other types of animal based attractions which function as a zoo just as a collateral activity like a wildlife conservation and rehabilitation center or something

[@jackblack704]

As a human I think it's very unfair that we keep animals caged so that 5 year old kids can enjoy watching them suffer on their weekend. But what do I know I'm no biologist.

[@thepinoz]

@@cormoranoimperatore8413 sure, as a hypothetical I could agree, but there is no indication that can ever happen. Zoos are confined spaced in a non natural habitat by definition.. So an ethical zoo could be a walk in the wild?

[@anacarneiro3759]

Being a veterinary student that is deeply passionated and has worked with wild animals, more specifically at a rescue center that receives a huge variety of species, all the way from big mammals to small birds and reptiles, I think this video actually brings quite an out of touch view and honestly a little harmful approach. Of course zoos have their problems, but on recent years the backlash among the general public against zoos and aquariums has been way bigger than the actual comprehension and appreciation for the work that is done there. To summarise the point I am going to explain below, zoos and aquariums are our method of attending and atoning for the issues caused by human action and lifestyle, until we can not secure the wild future of animal species, let's care for those individuals that have already been affected by us beyond the point of living in the wild.

[@EastofVictoriaPark]

People are emotional and care about how others see them. As you and others will see in the comments, many focus on the personal, "I feel bad. I pity the animals". These are all well and good, but an animal facing extinction does not escape that being of someone feeling sad or guilty. It takes time and money. Time and money that is in competition with innumerable other causes and flavours of the week. Funding and care come from exposure to animals by humans. Without zoos people can not see animals and therefore the connection to animals is never more than through a screen.

[@conntomasobrien]

The study explored in the video of human beliefs before and after visiting a zoo is pretty damning, though. Is there a problem with people only experiencing elephants through a screen, if doing so sends a message that these animals do not exist 'for' us, and deserve to live in habitats with minimal human interference?

[@evongunnar]

@@conntomasobrien STUDY?! you mean a little paper survey where you can write anything before and after come on that's barely a study. Zoo biologist and wildlife interpreters work incredibly hard to educate people who walk in and often travel to schools with animals to teach kids of all kinds about them. These are AZA accredited zoos 1000s of very well educated biologists and conservationists work at them often underpaid at that, not some Joe Exotic petting zoo.

[@joshuabowman317]

do you eat animals?

[@anacarneiro3759]

@@EastofVictoriaPark I definitely agree with your point on how people see this issue. Most of the times, people are overly emotional, widely misunderstanding animal behaviour and imposing human interpretation into it, and waaaay too disconnected from reality. What this video and the comments that Vox has liked also show is the fact that often this conversation centers too much on the "moral" problems of the issue, without actually helping towards effective change in a scale that actually makes a difference. Of course you can build a couple of amazing sanctuaries and rehabilitation centers, but does that work as an effective measure on changing not only the quality of life of the animals and also human view on the issue around the world? However, I do disagree with you on the issue of the zoos being an exposure of humans to the animals. I think that is another problem in the way this conversation is handled, it should not be focused on the humans, but on the animals. Of course, zoos are an amazing way to teach people about wildlife, and that is how they should be, still it should never be the main reason behind them.

[@dahlx037]

While this story includes images of bored animals in zoos, what's missing are images of animals in the wild struggling to survive against poachers, loss of habitat, and climate change. Until we learn to protect animals in their wild habitats, zoos and conservation breeding programs (which use global databases to maintain genetic diversity), are an important piece of the puzzle of saving some species from extinction.

[@ecerulean]

A very cynical part of me can imagine a time when all of these animals live only in zoos, and are wholly extinct in the wild. There is certainly value in essentially being a repository for species to prevent their extinction. Zoos will continue to change to fit the values of the time period... after all, at one point zoos literally housed "primitive" humans, and were far more circus-like (apparently tug of war contests between elephants and the local football team used to be a thing).

[@Boss-lu5wk]

Exactly! A very large part of modern zoos are the facilities acting as sanctuaries for animals that cannot live in the wild anymore due to human activity - red wolves would literally be extinct without the work of zoos, because of how much habitat they've lost and how aggressive locals are to wild ones. There's less than forty in the wild, and that's not from a lack of trying by conservationists to reintroduce them to the area!

[@inotherwords-n7k]

In this very video a baby gazelle is maimed and used as training tool for a cheetah cub to learn to hunt, and yet the entire video seems predicated on animal boredom/understimulation being unforgivable...

[@MrWinning606]

I did my dissertation on this, and found that without zoos, people felt that they would generally care less about these big animals in the first place. Without seeing them as children, the empathy they now feel towards them as adults and belief in the importance of conservation would unlikely be as powerful. Whilst people generally feel that zoo animals do live a lesser life than their wild counterparts, they are ‘ambassadors’ for their species that compels us to have more compassion the animal world.

[@ChristenSapnas]

Now I want to read your dissertation! 🤓

[@elliepay3763]

Thing is now we have the most amazing technologies to create documentaries that truly capture wild animals life, I think David Attenboroughs ones have taught us more than zoos ever have and especially as they’ve learnt new things documenting them that we would never know from the habits of captured animals.

[@rahuldhargalkar]

​@@elliepay3763 you make a very good point! I feel the same!!!

[@macgen4152]

So we should imprison them because otherwise kids wouldn’t learn the empathy towards the animal?! Why would they have to pay with their freedom

[@barnacleboi2595]

Wild animals arent meant to be kept in cages. Nature documentaries made me care more about animals than zoos ever did since they teach me a lot more than just looking at an animal be bored in a cage. The documentaries actually show me what the animals do in their natural habitat.

[@juliaconnell]

like most questions, this is not a simple 'yes' or 'no' topic - depends significantly on the zoo - how much space the animals have, the quality of the environment, food, care including yes, mental health. when i think of 'zoo' i immediately think of a poor large cat alone in a small cage, with a concrete floor pacing, going slowly mad 🙀😾😿 (an actual image from my childhood I try not to remember) then remind myself of the last time i actually saw big cats at an actual zoo (same zoo - many many years later) - HUGE space, pool, trees, toys, company of other large cats. obviously *happy* cats, chillin out, (even got the typical happy cat back roll, exposing his tummy (I was telling him how gorgeous he was - just him, me & some other lions 😻🦁😻). then there are conservation considerations (esp for endangered species) - benefits of that, thinking of 🐼 international breeding. plus educational benefit - how else are we going to teach next generation how VITAL *all* of earth is 🌍🌎🌏

[@MarkMetEenC]

You have to think about what the goal of the zoo is. Is its main purpose to entertain humans? Or is it to care for animals in need?

[@Wolfsification]

@@MarkMetEenC Yeah, that's why my favorite zoos are all non-profit.

[@LutraLovegood]

Huge difference between the best zoos in the world and "zoos" that are basically old-school circus where the animals are beaten if they don't perform.

[@juliaconnell]

@@LutraLovegood exactly! not a simple question with such a range

[@Chickaqee]

You cited ONE survey as justification for saying zoos don't make people care about animals more. Maybe they do, maybe they don't, but a single study is not enough to make that judgment. (Also the study states that "86.4% of respondents had watched a nature TV show in the last 12 months, and 60% were repeat zoo visitors.") So it seems like they were all likely quite educated about animal conservation to some degree, I fail to see how a single zoo visit would sway their opinions very much.

[@noahgettle8978]

I love Vox's ability to simplify complex topics. However, this video falls short on so many levels to do journalistic justice to this topic especially as it attempts to provide an educated opinion on a truly challenging topic. One of the most important roles of zoos (and not surprisingly, one of the most overlooked, as it is here) is raising money for conservation elsewhere. This includes not only the donation bins at zoos themselves, but as non-profit conduits for larger donors and philanthropic trusts.

[@stuartsaint4581]

I swore off going to zoos after going to Prague zoo and seeing the elephants. I've no doubt the staff are tireless and dedicated to looking after the animals as best they possibly can, but it's just not a good place for them to be.

[@huginug]

this is a big problem in the whole of europe. I know zoos in america are massive compared to that. I've seen bears in cages smaller than my bedroom ~12 sqm... wolves trying to dig out under the fence. all of them depressed, pacing in circles, moving back and forth to soothe themselves and the lack of territory required to settle their instincts.. I will never step my foot into another zoo.

[@wolffan21]

Prague’s elephant enclosure is one of the biggest in Europe, what do you mean?

[@luuclucas]

@@wolffan21 Isn't that actually worse? He percieved the animals to be in a bad place even in the largest enclosure in europe.

[@emilysimoneau]

@@wolffan21 okay but elephants' natural range is hundreds of miles wide and they hav very tight matriarchal communities that reunite with solo males for cultural exchanges. I don't care how "big" an elephant enclosure is at a zoo. It's never going to be big enough to keep an animal in without them deeply feeling the loss of autonomy and access to natural resources.

[@Muhdah1972]

Yes because they belong in the wild not locked up in a zoo environment. It's not natural and they know it.

[@apsiedoodle]

I've often wondered this, too. After visiting the Alaska Wildlife Conservation Center in Anchorage, I became convinced all zoos should function in the way this Conservation Center does. Each animal group has an incredible amount of natural acreage to exist as they would in the wild. I saw bears bathing in a creek, yaks charging, and porcupines playing. It was such a different experience from any other viewing of captive animals because they were active, playful, and even happy!

[@bduddy55555]

Works great if you live in Alaska where there's space for all that. Most of the people that really need to see animals don't.

[@redrosewolfess8527]

I would like to see a follow up video on this topic - I am a zoo employee in an AZA facility and one of the focuses - in addition to the SSP (species survival programs, which are creating the backup population you spoke of) are improving local habitats. It does vary by the zoo as to which projects they are a part of, because each state varies, but for example at mine there are staff involved with horseshoe crab population counts/tagging for population monitoring, salamander projects, Monarch butterfly studies, and more. A lot of the mentality around zoos has evolved to that it is not just enough to create the SSP populations (though this is very important work), but to also work to improve habitats in our home states/countries as well. Many zoos also in our network spearhead legislative policy changes in favor of wildlife - such as the Smithsonian Zoo. From there they garner support for both local and national legislations through other zoos, who petition for the same supports or raise awareness for the legislation petition. We work also with organizations like Audubon and other large environmental organizations who also work to create legislation - its through these connections and networks that zoos advocate for the bigger changes. Its that connection that can help zoos raise awareness not just in one state or place, but many across the country and (by extension of WAZA) - the world. Please also look into the SAFE programs - those are the ones that have both local and international projects. Some of the local ones include Monarchs, songbirds, and coral reefs - of which many aquariums are safeguarding corals from stony tissue disease and others, which unfortunately is wiping out our Florida reef tract currently. Its a major coral breeding, research, and reintroduction project. Overall my TLDR takeaway on this is that there is a lot more then empathy building, breeding projects, and others to take into account when it comes to zoos. Its a big topic because there are a lot of moving parts.

[@EmmaVB82]

Excellent comment! I’m an employee of a BIAZA accredited organisation, and it’s exactly as you describe (in really good detail!). I work in IT rather than directly with any of the conservation and research departments so I only had the broad strokes ideas to hand in the comment I left in another thread, but those specific real-world examples are really useful to add to the conversation.

[@jacobwixom9275]

When I worked at my local zoo, every day the zookeepers would change a part of their exhibit or add a toy to encourage better mental health for the animal so it didn't get bored. As far as I know it worked because I never saw stereotypies. Another thing that they did was not cram exhibits close together, but expanded existing ones. The giraffes have more than 5 acres plus thier barn to roam free, separated by only a fence. It isn't as good as the wild, but it is definitely better.

[@huginug]

@Fazza unfortunately the majority of zoos are small and cramped, especially in Europe. I've seen bears in cages smaller than my own bedroom. And even in the larger nature reserves with the safari type car tours animals have to suffer from breathing exhaust fumes and people feeding them even if it's not allowed. I've even seen a couple of Germans get out of their car in front of a pack of lions to take pictures, sending the rangers into a panic and forcing them to chase the lions off with jeeps, making the animals stressed. Let's not forget that many investigations show that zoos have absolutely no positive impact on conservation and many animals have been illegally bought or even contrabanded, especially sea animals. Zoos are only there for human entertainment and there is absolutely no way to defend or refute that. They only exist for our entertainment. If we were really concerned about their welfare we would fun their conservation and let them live in peace without needing gawk at them. The real conservation organizations receive little to no support from us. Let's not pretend

[@joelschittenhelm5571]

@@huginug Why do you Copy your lies under every comment. Its proven that Zoos have impact? Dont be silly. The opposite is proven and we should rather Focus on advancing the positive aspects then lying about their existence

[@panzerbummbumm]

@@huginug Which Country?

[@christianaha9839]

@@huginug Bruh which zoo did you go to? Bears usually have a litttle forest and burrows where they can sleep.

[@huginug]

@@christianaha9839 a bunch of them in eastern europe and some wild parks in germany

[@cliff870123]

Talking about zoo issues without interviewing any single zoologist...what a balanced report Zoos have reformed a lot and put much more effort into conservation and education than before

[@cosmicsugarbunny1832]

I’ve visited a zoo in Texas last year and it was one of the saddest zoos I’ve ever seen. There were some animals that were obviously very stressed, while others seemed bored. A lot of the animals didn’t even have any companions. I was surprised it was still running for so long.

[@mehere8038]

no companions really is the worst imo! Animals will endure a lot if they have at least one other of their own species that they can interact with. Without that they REALLY suffer! Sometimes after years of abuse in captivity, animals will lose the ability to interact with their own kind & so cannot be housed together, but all captive animal holders should be doing everything possible to avoid that situation occurring & if it has occurred previously, with animals they have taken in as rescues, then at least 2 of the same species should be housed in adjoining enclosures, so they can interact with each other if they want to, while being safely separated by bars (and it should be bars, not glass, so they can get the physical contact with each other if they want it)

[@ellatignor3250]

Because they’re relaxed, imagine living with food 24/7 without having to get worried about being eaten by a lion. I’d wanna be a zebra if I had the chance to, I’m not getting eating by no lion 😂🎉

[@karamiddleton9973]

I think about this question a lot. I love animals and being able to see them so easily at zoos/aquariums is such a privilege. For me I’d like to see just a general, higher standard for zoos/aquariums with more actual focus on conversation. Having fewer animals so there is more space for each enclosure could be one big improvement at many zoos. I’ve left a lot of zoos with my heart aching for the animals. I’ve always wonder if rules could be put in place ie aquariums with sea animals exist next to the ocean, kinda like Monterrey Bay does, or there can only only be animals in climates that mimic their own, so no polar bears in Texas, or even further the idea of local ecosystem, so maybe you can’t see a giraffe in Michigan instead seeing local animals and if you want to see the ‘big’ animals you’d have to travel to where they actually live (which I understand is the beauty of zoos bc you see exotic animals) Lastly, in the future I’d love to see animatronic animals become a thing! In places, for example the cognitively complex animals, where keeping these animals confined shows obvious signs of boredom and unnatural behavior, we replace them with life like- I mean like swap them out in the night and tell no one- animatronics. The possibilities of there also being an animatronic zoo of extinct animals would be p cool as well.

[@huginug]

i agree with the animatronics wholeheartedly. In reality zoos with real animals aren't necessary.

[@KristenRowenPliske]

The travel thing is a big setback for a lot of people. Being able to see a giraffe or polar bear can be more meaningful than reading about them. But I understand what you’re getting at; I’d like for zoos/aquariums to rethink & redesign the animal habitats, too.

[@rzdexyz]

do you …. eat ….. animals? or just “love” them?

[@pengu82]

Travel emits a huge amount of greenhouse gases

[@Sierra-208]

Dude, animatronic dinosaurs... The possibilities are endless

[@AdaManny555]

03:58 ”Once you realize how much these cognitively complex animals have to learn to survive in the wild, it makes sense why the ones you see in zoos could never join their wild cousins”. Yeah, but maybe also the fact that the left one is a leopard or jaguar and the ones on the right are cheetas.

[@robbygaskins5426]

So why didn't y'all talk to any zoo staff for this video? Because every single person who works for a zoo has an answer to this question. There are LOTS of things that keepers do to keep animals from being bored and to stimulate natural behaviors. I would love to see you report more on the ways zoos are trying to care for their animals, instead of this somewhat one sided approach.

[@ChristenSapnas]

Yes! It was ridiculous to make this without any zoo staff’s input. Oversimplified and perpetuates the stereotypes of poorly run sanctuaries or zoos of old.

[@ellatignor3250]

Because vox wants to turn things into something negative remember they’re media why would you hear positive output from a zoo staff

[@juliandeleon6107]

and also the fact that a lot of them are for profit organizations really shows it's not about education or conservation in most cases

[@cameronhowe1110]

@@ChristenSapnasWhen animals have a choice they choose to live in the wild. The dswt let’s them choose and ever single adult ones has returned back into the wild.

[@sandroman_04]

@cameronhowe1110 How can you be sure of this? Look, we are animals and no longer live in the wild. they are not too different from us.​

[@juliocastro9563]

There wasn’t quite a lot of nuance in the arguments made here. It would’ve been good to speak to actual professionals in the field to see what they say or to counterpoint your questions. While yes not every species maintained in zoos are part of ex-situ conservation/reintroduction programs, it’s not just an easy thing to breed species and then release into the wild. The Condor was mentioned, a population that was down 22, now ranging about 400-500 birds that have been released as well as maintaining a population in captivity. Low genetic diversity can severely affect breeding programs, not necessarily genes you would want to introduce into the wild population if one exists for said specie. Some of the animals that are bred for ex-situ conservation programs may not even be seen by the public due to the delicate nature. It took the San Diego Zoo Safari Park(formally known as the Wild Animal Park) about 20 years to display a couple condors which would require authorization from the government. The Safari Park, the LA Zoo, and other NGOs were responsible for seeing the comeback of an iconic California native. As for the larger charismatic megafauna mentioned in the video, let’s take tigers for example. Tigers have been largely depleted from their natural habitat due to deforestation, human-animal conflicts, hunting, and harvesting for traditional medicines. Zoos didn’t cause this, humans for our selfish purposes have done this. We lost 4 of the 9 subspecies of tigers in the last 100 years, almost half. Their population trends seemed to have stabilized but far from out of the woods, habitat fragmentation and other aforementioned problems still exist. I remember a day 2 Sumatran tigers were caught in a trap in their native range just recently. That’s about 1% of their population lost in a single event. Many of these charismatic megafauna in accredited zoological parks drawn people in and we learn to appreciate them more. And as cold as it may seem, an Arabian Oryx or Przewalski’s Horse may not draw the crowds the same way as big cats or pachyderms may. Those two animals are also species that have seen reintroduction due to the work of good zoological parks. It’s a multi-faceted issue that no one by themselves can solve. Accredited zoos/aquariums/Safari parks in modern times have to build habitats that will help with mental stimulation and do their best to keep animals busy. They do this by enrichment items such as toys, scented perfumes, snacks, or their meals hidden throughout their habitat. I have worked in the vet field for more than a decade and have a love for conservation/animals due to visiting my local zoos and aquariums. I’ve learned about what species are threatened, the importance of biodiversity, and species that have seen reintroduction due to the combined collective of many zoological institutions. I don’t want the day we can only see big cats, elephants, apes in captivity. That’s not what I want. It would be truly sad to see that happen. We need to do our part as a society to be more sustainable in our practices. It’s not just about caring for the cure and cool animals like big cats and elephants, it’s about animals essential for keeping healthy ecosystems such as vultures and insects that many people forget about.

[@krombopulos_michael]

I think when people want to talk about the "cruelty of keeping animals in zoos" we should also weigh it against the cruelty of the natural world these animals exist in. Zoos are probably not ideal places for animals to be, but the wild isn't a picnic either. Animals live much shorter and more difficult lives out there in the wild. Even aside from the effects of man-made climate change, they have to contend with starvation, disease, critical injuries, and predators who do not have any concept of killing their prey "humanely". I also think we tend to overly anthropomorphise animals and put ourselves in their shoes, when they're just so cognitively different from us that it's impossible to actually do that accurately. And one other big problem I noticed in this video is that it writes off the idea of zoos doing anything for conservation with the results of one survey. Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that survey, but it's just one from one point in time. It shouldn't be the alpha and omega of how zoos affect the attitudes of humans toward animals.

[@PabloPerroPerro]

How about we lock you up in jail, where you're safe from getting run over by a car? Not an ideal place to be, but you'd potentially live longer.

[@KamiInValhalla]

Two things to keep in mind: size and funding. If the enclosures are small and the zoo is not properly funded, then it is useless. However, zoos are good for conservation and education.

[@jackblack704]

Go watch a documentary and donate to charities working where the animals are located. Stop funding prisons for animals

[@themotions5967]

@@jackblack704 again stop your nonsense in the comments, many of the in habitat conservation programs your talking about heavily rely on funding and staffing from properly accredited zoos. And aquariums. And many many wildlife documentaries also use footage gathered from captive bred and raised animals from many of these facilities to get glimpses at harder to document animals and behaviors. Again your spouting off about a topic you know very little bout but feel highly confident in injecting a ethical take on I implore you to stop it, it’s far more harmful to the animals on hover than any misguided hood you think your doing.

[@oberlexia]

Near where I grew up there was this place called Science North. It was this big science centre and they had a zoo but it was all smaller animals from the local area. I really learned a lot about all the local wildlife from that place when I was young and I can really see zoos that focus on all the local wildlife and education about them and how to protect the animals close to you where you can actually do something being really valuable.

[@WJWeber]

For anyone looking at animals being introduced back into the wild. There is a show called like orangutan jungle school (something like that). They literally have grades and teach them from nothing to more advanced life skills. It’s so adorable and amazing.

[@emmavedock]

The Living Museum in Virginia, the Ecotarium in Boston, and the Desert Museum in Tucson are great examples of “zoos” that showcase the local wildlife and ecology!

[@AdaManny555]

This video is very one-sided in focusing on the bad cases where animals are suffering from boredom in zoos. I think that there was footage of the famous case of Kavaan the elephant in a Pakistani zoo as well as mostly old clips from the 80s or something. Most zoos / animal parks in Western nations today do a great job giving the animals stimulation, enrichment and a good life. Something people rarely Think about is the fact that these animals would most likely have a worst existence out in the wild, where they are subject to predators, natural disasters, starvation, sicknesses and diseases and so forth. A life in a decent-sized enclosure with other members of the same species and free food every day along with the necessary intellectual stimulation is actually quite a good life.

[@agme8045]

I’ve had this exact same feeling before. I loved visiting the zoo when i was younger, I really had a great time, watching, feeding and learning about animals.

[@SpikeRosered]

I don't like the evidence of the results of a survey being used to dismiss the idea that zoos support empathy for animals. I have to imagine that a lot of conversationists had their first exposure to wild animals in a zoo.

[@efrenchen293]

This video raises some good points about zoos' responsibility to conservation efforts and education. Noncharismatic fauna deserve respect too! But I was bothered that they didn't differentiate between zoos when it came to animal welfare. Stereotypical behaviors happen due to lack of behavioral enrichment. Good zoos offer that to animals and provide more space (though you could certainly argue that it would never be enough for the animals to actually be happy). The welfare standards between different zoos can be night and day; lumping all of them together doesn’t represent that spectrum.

[@jellybeansi]

6:10 I wonder if the decrease is because zoos give people a false sense of security about how imperative habitat protection actually is; maybe they're thinking, like the video covered a bit earlier, "it can't be that bad, it looks like this and other zoos would have a decent 'backup supply' of animals if things did go south".

[@dragongirl89115]

Pretty much. I did a research paper on the subject of zoos in college and studies found that, seeing wild animals in captivity gave them the false ideas that they are safer. Or, at the very least, that protecting them in the wild isn't as pressing since the zoos could just "replenish" the wild populations with their captive animals.

[@mph2336]

I went to the Baltimore aquarium in July on acid, and I’ve never been more sad for animals in my life before. I was thinking those mfn animals need to be in the ocean, but this video is very good for perspective.

[@francookie9353]

... I'm kinda disappointed that you being on acid wasn't featured more in your story. :C

[@karenjacome7117]

The fact that you have to go there on acid is truly sad.

[@quantumblurrr]

So you threw the lions in the ocean

[@k.3004]

Not that the oceans are in a good state either...

[@mph2336]

@@karenjacome7117 I didn’t have to and i didn’t really want to but I chose to.

[@momoleeann]

You mentioned the AZA but didn't talk about their accreditation program that holds zoos and aquariums to very high standards for animal and guest experience. My zoo has a breeding program that helps to release Bongos back to a reserve in Africa. And yeah most of the larger animals can't be released back, but the AZA's species survival plans help to conserve genetic diversity that can be used to repopulate. There are truly awesome zoos that work hard to protect and give their animals a great life. My zoo has 2 orangutans that came from another "zoo" where they lived in a concrete cage. Now they hate going outside so we have an indoor habitat that they are comfortable with and try to give them outside time when they want it.

[@Cubehead27]

This is really interesting actually... I wonder if perhaps zoos are a symptom of a mode of urban design that makes the continued existence of local animal populations in that area impossible. Maybe the better idea would be to design our urban environments in a way that is a little more seamless with the natural world? (Way more and much wilder parks, dramatically more trees in areas of high population density, narrower streets and other design features that decrease dependence on personal vehicles in favour of public transportation to decrease roadkill, etc.) In my city (a car-dependent nightmare that also happens to have quite a few lovely parks), I've seen deer quite close to the downtown core on more than one occasion, and the river is home to all sorts of wildlife (blue herons, beavers, etc.) - the potential is certainly there.

[@jbro2108]

I totally agree, i think we should build urban environments so we could have freeroaming lions and giraffes around the place.

[@Cubehead27]

@@jbro2108 I'm not saying we can't exercise some level of control over what specific kinds of large animals can exist comfortably inside city limits, and neither am I talking about encouraging megafauna to walk around on main roads. I'm genuinely just talking about designing our cities in a way that is less hostile to local wildlife.

[@krinklesofmadness]

I think your intentions are good but zoos per their history are more about spectacle and a veneer of naturalism. Like I really do not think we’ve come too far from the days of traveling menageries that directly preceded zoos in America

[@Cubehead27]

@@krinklesofmadness Exactly. I'm suggesting we replace them with something more genuine.

[@JamesR1986]

zoo's first emerged as a status symbol for great powers to show off exotic creatures to their people. At that time it was the only way for people to ever see an elephant or a lion. Now, we carry phones around in our pocket that allow us to see these creatures when ever we want, so the mystique is gone and the pros and cons have changed.

[@KennM12]

I feel like this wasn't a wide enough discussion. only the idea that captive animals could be bred and released back into the wild to save a species from extinction was discussed. and it was decided based on that alone that zoos can't help wild animals. but conservation is about more than just having "backup animals" on hand...

[@hemantparmar4604]

so proud to find that i am living in a place which have lots of 'National Parks' and 'Wildlife Sanctuaries'. My State 'Madhya Pradesh (India)' has the most of them .

[@craigbaranowski5311]

After working in an AZA zoo for 16 years, I can tell you that the objection to focusing on species who could be easily reintroduced into nature is not coming from zoos. It's coming from the public. In general, people scoff at the notion of conserving snakes or insects or anything else that isn't a bird or mammal and are unwilling to have the cost of that (which is substantial) passed on to them. Accredited zoos are far from perfect, but do try to preserve captive populations of species as well as partnering with conservationists from within the native countries of those species. It wasn't even mentioned that already, some species of animals only exist in captivity. Instead of asking if what zoos are doing is enough to justify them, ask who else is doing anything at all. Public support of zoos' conservation efforts would improve them considerably. Instead, most people complain about the cost, offer no solutions, and criticize the people who are doing something because it's not perfect. This piece was definitely not a deep dive. Kind of disappointing.

[@hhk0698]

How would you explain barabary lions situation Though extinct in the wild they exist in zoos

[@tracievestalharris7297]

As a veterinary technician, I have thought a lot about animal welfare vs how my creature compassion was shaped/molded by my early experiences (such as visiting zoos). I can imagine the utility of virtual reality technology playing a role in expanding the education of young humans to better encapsulate habitat conservation/restoration

[@TheRealityofFake]

The question I was thinking of was do people actually need to see animals in real life for them to develop empathy towards them. Sea turtles are one of my favorite animals but I've never seen them in person. I've just learned about them through nature documentaries. In fact, I think nature documentaries that take place in the wild allow people to learn more about animals than they ever would just visiting a zoo.

[@madeleinepettigrew1033]

That’s so true. I grew up watching animal and nature documentaries and was never once brought to a zoo, yet I want to volunteer at wildlife rescues. I once did get to visit a bio dome with whole buildings just for creating a bubble of a habitat and it didn’t have many animals, at least no large ones. I found a lot of people not connect or show sympathy for animals by seeing them in person, everyone is different but I notice a lot of children scream at or from seeing an animal in person. I think teaching kids about animals and their behaviour, also how to behave before going to a zoo/sanctuary would make more responsable or caring children. Also growing up with pets definitely changes people, and can help a kid in a stressful family situation. I think “zoos” in Asia are what people should worry about, in quite a few countries there are animal rights, but in parts of Asia they still have ancient “medicinal” practices, that not only harm people but torture animals, like the use of pangolin scales, bear farm bear bile,preserved bear fetuses, and a lot of animal atrocities. Also, Asia has chained tiger photo areas where tigers that can’t move around have children climb on them and people laugh while taking photos. And circuses where malnourished orangutan’s are forced to box and collapsing elephants are whipped to do tricks. I can’t say all of Asia, or Asian people are terrible to animals, they just have some bad problems with animal’s rights I think the world needs to focus on instead of more on North America where a lot has been done.

[@ifuj]

Kids love dinosaurs. This answers that question well.

[@Muhdah1972]

@@madeleinepettigrew1033 I can agree with what you're saying but Asia isn't alone. It's worldwide and America isn't innocent. A lot of work needs to be done in N. America because even Canada has its shortcomings on the subject of wild animals & their rights as sentient creatures.

[@docilelikewintercatfish]

Same. Cheetahs are my favorite even though I've never seen them irl

[@madeleinepettigrew1033]

@@Muhdah1972 Very true. Everywhere can improve, I had just heard a lot of terrible things about whales that where finally out of endangered status being killed in the hundreds in Japan and preserved polar bear fetuses being smuggled into china for unproven cures. I focused a bit too much on Asia, but I just read and heard much more about endangered and animal rights problems there, than in other countries. North America does has its own problems to be improved yes.

[@rabbidsqwirl2]

Would love to see Gaurav again in a follow-up

[@elmotociclista9296]

I was about to cry... but then I realized that there's a growing number of these type of sanctuaries.

[@sanskarkhandelwal]

thx Gaurav for asking such an interesting question

[@jaywilson8607]

I would've love to see y'all look at the problem from the perspective of animals who couldn't live on their own in the wild because of injuries. I know some zoos have mostly, or even entirely disabled animals that couldn't survive in the wild even if they knew how.

[@Dredgehayt]

True. So many animals live in zoos that would have died otherwise. The medical care some of these animals require is huge.

[@jackblack704]

no one wants to see a three legged lion or a cancerous panda.

[@themotions5967]

@@jackblack704 and get many AZA non profit zoos keep injured and rescue animals frequently. You keep proving yourself ignorant.

[@LutraLovegood]

@@jackblack704 It's not like you can see the cancer from the outside, and I'd be fascinated to see a three legged lion!

[@ose5226]

I'm happy Vox is doing this series, especially with audience members. It's filling the ELT void in my life since Spotify cancelled that podcast :(

[@rhcp8390]

I think it's easy for us to dismiss zoos as an outdated concept, but they've come a long way from being exhibits with iron bars and concrete floors. I still see zoos as a means to connect people to nature and for them to care about species that are half a world away.

[@peterturtle2000]

Why wasn’t a single zoologist or zoo interviewed in this segment?

[@mattcleaves]

Blows me mind to image an animal spending 10-13 years with its mother, and then one day just up and leaving without a word. I’d love to know how the parent animal feels when this happens!

[@Hill.3669]

Feel free to approach any bear, cheetah, lion or leopard and ask them 🙃

[@francookie9353]

@@Hill.3669 Lol, I'm just imagining a cheetah sitting down at the kitchen table, looking pensively at a mug of tea and saying something like "well, at first it's kind of difficult, but you get used to it."

[@hipking23]

@@francookie9353 lol 😂

[@rabbit251]

Except for a few species, most are expected to leave.

[@superpixelated7354]

They are happy being single and ready to mingle again!

[@TheArmyDr1]

Agree with many of the comments, the video assumes the lives lead by Zoo animals are unfulfilled, while showing many reasons why Zoos and Zoo goers have reason to ensure they are quality lives. Appreciate the viewpoint and education about this subject; glad I clicked!

[@jlee4039]

100%. I don't need to see a highly intelligent mammal clearly suffering in captivity. It breaks my soul rather than uplift my spirit.

[@TheBeccabus]

Definitely agree with the majority of comments saying this video is too short and can't properly discuss the benefits and drawbacks of a zoo. They successfully created a backup population of Tasmanian devils in Australia in the last few decades. That project started in a zoo, it then moved to a large fenced reserve. Probably, getting your kid into nature is a better way of getting them conservation minded than going to a zoo. But there's also the issue of us barreling through wild habitat to spot animals, if we can't see them at zoos

[@mei-ke]

I think the biggest overlooked fact in this video is that many animals that are in zoos are there specifically because they have injuries that prevent them for being rehabilitated into the wild. In addition, there are many regulations for breeding of zoo animals across the globe to keep populations steady and sustainable. Individual wildlife recovery organizations often do not have the resources or knowledge base to understand all the impacts of their work to restore one specific animal.

[@gadizliberty9634]

I like this concept of Vox engaging with its audience!

[@TheReaderOnTheWall]

Would have been interesting to explore managed "safaris"' places where animals roam in an almost natural way, and where humans are in caged paths or vehicules. For example, a gazelle would be released at selected (but random) places, where the lions could try to stalk and hunt it, honing their hunting abilities, but still within a managed environment (but quite big).

[@jackblack704]

what is wrong with you

[@bjornmercado8058]

That idea might work

[@SkoolieBoyQue]

THANK YOU FOR ASKING THESE QUESTIONS!!! I've always wondered myself.

[@TheNoerdy]

Education is so important. And zoos are a great way to get educated.

[@rafisw160]

Yeah this was completely missed

[@jackblack704]

Go watch a documentary and leave the animals alone

[@TheNoerdy]

@@jackblack704 Are you really telling an 8 year old to watch a documentary instead of going to the Zoo? Good luck with that.

[@Shagolagal]

@@jackblack704 Dude go watch a documentary instead of pasting the same reply on everyone’s comments.

[@ortem000]

I enjoyed how this was an conversation. The young man made some great points. Kudos. ✨

[@ssartworks7396]

No, zoos are not bad because they are run by biologists and biologists love animals. To cancel zoos would be worse than to keep them in place. Circus for animals are bad

[@jacksonnesbit9571]

I'm currently a student at a university studying conservation biology with hopes of doing ecological work in the future. To speak on the educational aspect of zoos, I genuinely believe that I would not be where I am today without having grown up with the ability to visit zoos as a kid and learn to appreciate animals from them. As the late Steve Irwin once put it, "If you can’t excite people about wildlife, how can you convince them to love, cherish, and protect our wildlife and the environment they live in?”

[@ailo4x4]

While in university I worked for local (and very progressive) zoo. I did the 'zoo-mobile' to educate 6-18 year olds at schools. I found it to be extremely helpful to kids, especially kids from the inner city to the suburbs who did not have the access to wild animals that rural kids had. I think it certainly helped expand their circle of empathy because it made wild animals real to them. Are zoos, even progressive ones, perfect? No, of course not. But I think the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. Especially if the zoo experience is more in the model of a wildlife park where the animals are free and it is the people in the cages.

[@PabloPerroPerro]

Duh Of course you think the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. You're the one who gets the benefits. The animals have to put up with the "drawbacks". And their conservation efforts are negligible to non existent. Other gubernamental agencies already fill that role.

[@Desmende]

I went to this place called “Bearizona” in, you guessed it, Arizona, and this seemed like something more ideal than essentially locking the animals up in an artificial habitat. I’ve always wondered if we could change the concept of zoos to mimicking an animal’s natural habitat and us safely entering it to observe them.

[@nxt_tim]

Another VERY clear stereotypy is when you can see paths that animals keep running around. The last zoo I visited had heaps of it. It made me feel really uncomfortable.

[@keegancrilly8156]

Many wild animals also have paths that could either be in their territory or throughout the ecosystem that act as highways so it’s not uncommon

[@jortsin]

Cattle and deer make natural paths like this all the time. Sure it could be from an animal having too small of an area, but some animals also do this even when they are on thousands of acres.

[@ChristenSapnas]

There is a difference between pacing and patrolling their space. Keepers pay close attention to the welfare of their animals.

[@abhinavkumar7778]

Kudos to Vox and Gaurav both

[@bobfreds]

No mention of the actual purpose of the Species Survival Plan since anyone who knows it already knows the main purpose isn't regular re-introduction, or about AZA vs non AZA zoos since standards of care can be immensely better at AZA facilities with enrichment also given to animals, and no mention of other benefits including research done at zoos which directly helps biologists in the wild save the species still there. Very shallow video.

[@JohnJohn-pe5kr]

Thank you I did my best to tell people how many Zoos save near extinct species.

[@francookie9353]

@@JohnJohn-pe5kr no you didn't, you cited no numbers at all. Edit. And now you even deleted that comment! 😱

[@KOSTNOT]

@vox was there nobody who actually works/ has worked in a zoological setting that could have provided insight? Also reintroduction programs isn’t the end all be all for conservation . Also what about the large number of animals who are well adjusted and are thriving? Though this video didn’t provide a conclusive answer it certainly didn’t paid a broad picture of this industry. If you would like to discuss this topic more reach out! I actually work in the zoological industry.

[@annagulkova6203]

Loved the idea of learning more about city animals around us that we usually dismiss. Certainly there are cool facts about them that make them fascinating! We shouldn't get excited only by the biggest ones

[@brick1717]

Such a shame you didn't consult representatives from zoos who actively try to make their animals stimulated and engaged in their exhibits, that way you could show how to "fix" other zoos. It would be unrealistic to take out the so called 'blockbuster' species as those help get attendees and in other words, funding for the zoos. It's also a great opportunity to introduce children to animals from habitats they'd never seen before. Sure, there are bad zoos in the world who poorly manage their animals, but I don't think we can swear off zoos entirely when there's so many that put effort into the cause.

[@cartograp]

I was excited to watch this video because I've thought about this stuff before. But this is a really complex topic and 8 minutes felt way too short and unsatisfying.

[@PossiblyPro]

This was disappointing. I feel like Vox really missed the mark here on this one. Where are interviews with zookeepers and curators of zoos? Where are interviews with people doing field research with assistance from a zoo? Not a single one of those people would have told you zoos are supposed to hold a reserve of animals to dump back into the wild just in case. It’s really unfair that someone who doesn’t work in a zoo said “maybe it’s for this,” added it to the pro column, talked about how it wouldn’t work, and then crossed it off the pro column. As if it was some big lie being debunked or a major over-promise on the zoo’s part. As far as the release programs, not every zoo directly contributes straight from the zoo to the wild, but there are breeding conservation programs to diversify genetic population. They will breed animals with healthy genetic lines that would see success in the wild. Then they can work with a refuge to raise a healthier generation in an environment where they CAN be released back into the wild. I’m just a little disappointed on the sources they used/didn’t use to make a video about this.

[@JamesR1986]

I went to my local city zoo for my first time in several years recently, and it was a depressing experience, it was largely empty, the polar bear kept swimming in the same loop repeatedly it left me thinking we need to rethink the zoo experience from the ground up. There is a privately run safari park outside of Buffalo metro area where visitors feed the animals from their cars and I find that experience better for the animals then the public zoo, because at least there you have space. We need to either expand the foot print of these urban zoos dramatically or move the zoo in it's entirely to rural peripherally, where it is quieter and space is less of a premium.

[@sevensongs]

City zoos are, sadly, often the worst because they were designed (as another commenter pointed out above) for spectacle and not at all with the animals in mind. The first time I saw a city zoo I was shocked. It was nothing like the zoo I grew up visiting, and I am certain the animals suffered for it.

[@mehere8038]

We used to have one of those in Sydney - till a mentally ill person decided to get out of their car & go pat a lion! Insurance premiums after that caused the place to close to the public. The ones that operate now either allow driving only on roads in between enclosures, not into the enclosures themselves, or they have buses that they drive the people through the enclosures in. I'm really surprised anywhere in the US is able to allow people to drive through wild animal enclosures & not be sued out of existance

[@JamesR1986]

@@mehere8038 Our only had grazers, Bison, Water Buffalo, Zebra' et. cetra.

[@mehere8038]

@@JamesR1986 ah ok, makes sense then :) probably wouldn't work in Australia, cause you know what they say about the animals here I'm sure, so import animals like those & they'll join the locals & charge at cars or something, just for fun. I can easily imagine Bison & water buffalo destroying cars! Actually we have wild water buffalo here & they do just that! Only people that go into areas where they live are those on paid hunting safaris, trophy hunting the water buffalo & wild boars. Wild camels here destroy houses too, they try to get water out of air conditioners & literally break them & walls & the house in general with their determination to get those few drops of water. Australia's just nuts! Your safari place actually sounds really nice though :)

[@haitiancreolewithluciano]

*As always, great content! Love that you got the idea from a subscriber*

[@ewrock7635]

I just got a membership to my local zoo about a month ago, and it's become a routine part of every weekend for me. There's no doubt the animals are often understimulated, but you can't deny the educational and conservational benefits.

[@straighttothedisco]

Watching this episode made me miss listening to the Every Little Thing podcast 😭💔 I hope Vox media decided to pick it up it would fit great with this question format

[@bichovergara]

Such a complex question... sadly this video end up being very shallow.

[@TL4546b]

Honestly I hate the “ZOO BAD! WILD GOOD!” narrative. I like zoos and a long as -The enclosure is a good size -The enclosure is clean -The animals are happy Then it’s a good zoo. Obviously some creatures like whales sand polar bears should not be kept, but as long as it’s a good enclosure the animals will be happier than they ever could be in the wild.

[@nix2599]

I myself am pro-zoo. I have been obsessed with them my whole life and even volunteer at my local establishment. It's often a misconception that zoo animal are all snatched from freedom and forced to be human entertainers, when this is hardly ever the case, at least in the western zoo world. Programs run by Zoo organizations such as PAAZA, AZA, WAZA, or EAZA are known as SSP (Species Survival Plans), and these number in the hundreds, they function as a way to pair different captive specimens from around the world together so that a larger captive reservoir population can be formed. Other than that, Zoos like the Bronx, Prague, or Singapore often spend millions upon millions of dollars generated by the zoo to help animals in the wild, the zoo functionally acts as an ambassador for their wild counterparts. Though much evidence exists that larger more complex species to stereotype in captivity, these animals are usually born in captivity, and cannot be released, many larger, better zoos have started phasing out these animals, and *are* focusing to implement more simple species that are in just as much need as their larger cousins. An example of this is the Chinese pangolins that have been introduced to European Zoos in the last couple of years. Unfortunately due to human nature, it is often thought that these cognitively basic species also have complex emotions, causing people to falsely believe that they are unhappy, which is hardly the case. Zoos are safe havens for animals, and via education and conservation, we can thank them for the existence of Scimitar Oryx, Pink Pigeons, and the California Condors. The staff work tirelessly day and night to provide the best homes one can imagine, with stimulating enrichment and nutritional food. It's utterly saddening that a few money-wanting, greedy excuses of zoos, put them all in a bad light. All I'm saying is keep an open mind, they might not be as bad as you take them to be.

[@jackblack704]

zoos are bad and exotic animals as pets is bad both can be true at the same time. Go watch a documentary and get a cat

[@themotions5967]

@@jackblack704 if we can care for a wide range of species in human care, while raising funds to help conserve the species both in its natural habitat and by building g a sharia boa is and genetically diverse population in human care, and those same species have proven time and time again to do well in human care under veterinary and psychological assessment, why would we not utilize a facility that does so? Does your argument here have any real logic to it, or is it emotionally motivated on what makes you “feel better” I know this is the case as your not making this same argument against rescue centers, and captive animal sanctuaries, even though they also keep animals in the same type of setting (space and enrichment requirements are usually 1to1 for most species) And the simple matter of the fact is that many of these large accredited non profit zoos, are also doing rescue, and rehab work for animals as well. And no person “should” have any animal as a pet. It’s proof enough with how much domestic animal abuse we see. Even domestic animals require massive amounts of effort and time to properly keep happy and healthy. The determining factor for what type of animal a person should keep is a three factor solution. If the species is getting proper care is it healthy in human care? Most small exotic animals (reptiles, fish, birds, amphibians) far surpass their wild counterparts lifespans in human care, and have proven to show less sick s of long term chronic stress under vet examination. So we can provide a quality of life for these animals if they are taken care of properly. How much of their natural behaviors can we offer them? I know at least for reptiles and amphibians, you can offer habitats with live plants, living soil, natural light, heat, weather conditions, and a entire ecosystem of micro fauna species that make it all function. And how do we enrich the lives of domestic animals. Basic exorcise, toys, and new food items. The literal bare minimum of enrichment ideas. And then there is the statistics that prove that on average people who own exotic animals seriously invest more time, effort, and money into their animals welfare than almost 79 percent of domestic animal owners. The logic you spiting here is flawed and not reflective of reality. If you have any issues believe it what I’m saying you can look up these issues and get the same answers

[@LutraLovegood]

@@themotions5967 Oh boy, if I was loaded I'd get a mansion with a huge lake and lots of fishes just so I can have pet otters. Brb, gonna rob a bank.

[@SmilotortoliniYT]

Finally, someone with a brain

[@devduttsinh4704]

Nice one Gaurav!👍👍👏 My thoughts are the same

[@pa0mafeurtadott777]

I work for a wildlife film company. One of their shows is a children's show about a zoo, so I therefore spend hours and hours looking at footage shot in what is presented as gold standard of zoos. I noticed, especially the cats, are always pacing up and down the fences of their enclosures. In fact all the animals seem to gravitate towards the edges of their enclosures. Researched online and many places essentially said animals don't even comprehend their lack of freedom. I disagree

[@MedlifeCrisis]

Is Gaurav a zoologist or something? He made some great points!

[@themotions5967]

Not at all, a zoologist wouldn’t have needed to ask these questions as most people who work in the field would well know them

[@skyethebard]

When I was raising my eldest (now 27), I often took him to the Philly zoo. I had a couple of friends who thought zoos were inhumane and, over time, their stance prompted me to research the topic. Until this summer, I'd never taken my youngest two to a zoo or aquarium. We were on vaca with family and my sister wanted to take our boys to a "preserve" as a late birthday present. We all went. While there were parts that my boys enjoyed, they all (27, 16, 11 and 7) expressed their sadness about the animals being caged. We won't be doing that again!

[@PHlophe]

You've got lots of kids. the noise level at home is similar to that of a zoo IMO

[@skyethebard]

@@PHlophe Much of the time, yes! I'm sure I'll miss it someday 🥰

[@ChristenSapnas]

A preserve, reserve, or sanctuary is very different from an accredited zoo. There are some reserves that do help the conservation and protection of species, but so often those terms are complete misnomers for privately owned and profit driven places.

[@nussnougat5462]

It would have been important to mention that this is about the US and their zoos.

[@renan6181]

Not sure the study regarding human attitudes about conservation is enough to rule this out. The survey probably applied more for adults, and in my opinion the most positive impact of zoos is with kids. Not sure if the empathy (towards other species) of older generations, that had less contact with zoos, is the same as in the younger ones.

[@ChristenSapnas]

Exactly! Education with kids leads to more empathy towards wildlife, then in turn the hope/goal is for them to care about them and their conservation status.

[@metalinyourhead3604]

Went to the Washington Zoo in 2012, where I saw something that permanently turned me off Zoos. It was an indoor enclosure for meerkats and people were ignoring the signs saying “no flash” or “no tapping on the glass”. The Meerkats were also digging at the edge of the enclosures right by the glass as if trying to get away. I haven’t been to a Zoo since.

[@Redstoneprime316]

That’s not the zoo’s fault.

[@ojonasplima]

"If we educate them". Well said!

[@Dredgehayt]

Which is the point of zoos and aquariums. Education, compassion and conservation

[@feekalphabeet9217]

I've worked in a privately owned zoo which put the animals first but even there I've seen some things which was sad but that was because of lack of space and no other parties that would take in the elephants that were causing problems. They were behaving aggresively against other animals in the free-range area which meant they had to be secluded but there was a lack of space. Sadly we had to keep the animals there because they would not play nice with the other animals. That zoo did help immensely with projects to breed more animals for species conservation. I would say there are zoos that are bad but there are many that are undenyingly GOOD.

[@beapower7045]

I grew up going to zoos & aquaria/aquariums. I'm deeply committed to the protection of wild animals & their habitats, & I attribute my commitment to a childhood of family weekends with animals. In my own experience, the zoos & aquaria opened the world to me & spurred my desire to preserve it.

[@ChristenSapnas]

Yes! This is the goal for any properly run zoo/aquarium. Education -> Conservation

[@SaltySparrow]

I’ll never forget the Orca from Free Willy. It didn’t make it in the wild after various tries. It was super sad. Animals are complex.

[@vrohanrajan]

I can see a trend in vox's videos moving towards less animation and less laborious methods

[@maxonite]

It makes sense to show actual footage of animals in this video rather than animation. And since this is very much a moral question, it’s difficult to gather hard evidence

[@battleduck00]

This video answered basically no questions, I’m really not sure what the point of it is besides “Well there’s a lot to consider!”. The pieces by the experts feel incongruent and don’t tell a cohesive story. I usually like these vox pieces, and i like the host, but this really didn’t make me feel/think much about anything. I would have gotten the same information just from reading the title and moving on.

[@arthurgiles379]

How about research? Speaking to the keepers at London Zoo, they are constantly collecting data about literally every animal and sending it to universities and institutes.

[@arcticlion7794]

In response to your second argument about the ability zoos might have to encourage people to care more about the natural world. Maybe the one study you cited didn t prove much, but I can tell you as someone who is very much involved in the wildlife and conservation economy that almost all of the people working in conservation developed there love for wildlife through Zoo visits and wildlife exposure during there youth. Just imagine a world without all these conservation professionals. Who would work in those remote reserves around the world, do the scientific work or run fundraising campaigns to finance conservation ? If you aim to end Zoos you make the lasts remnants of wildlife of the planet invisible to the wider public and thus creating a situation in which greedy multinational companies can wipe out what is left of earths wilderness without much interference from average person.

[@LiaBee1993]

I'm disappointed that this video didn't talk to zookeepers and animal psychologists, etc. I'm far more interested in whether zoos are beneficial or detrimental for the zoo animals themselves than society at large... and no, showing videos of several animals in distress doesn't provide a definitive answer to that question.

[@petartodorov5615]

Wow Gaurav really reminds me of the youtuber econnect I watch. Great content by both!

[@terramater]

Seeing your panda background makes us also think about how animals end up in zoos. Recently our crew filmed pandas to shed light on how they land in zoos worldwide, spoiler alert, that's thanks to political reasons. Another interesting point is how long it takes for some species to be reintegrated into the wild. Our team also filmed a project that works on reintegrating orangutans in the wild after being kept captive. Sadly, it might take up to 14 years until they are ready to return to their natural habitat.

[@FilippoPBalbon]

The last point about "what animals should be in the zoo" sparked another question for me: what about farm animals? Would we change our relationship towards cows and pigs, if we see them in a similar context to elephants and giraffes? I've seen farm animals in zoos before, but in all cases, there was a conscious effort to create a separate context for them, like a "farm section", instead of mimicking the natural habitats of their wild counterparts as we do for other species.