How Does Damage Work? | Making A Build - Chapter 10 | Elden Ring

[@dimKiriyenko]

If anyone is wondering about when split damage is better/worse than pure damage: Let's say your heavy infusion is 500, while fire infusion is 300 physical + 300 fire =600. I take numbers from imagination, because it's simpler. 600 is more than 500, but now we apply defence. Let's say target's defence for everything is like 150, a realistic number. If you hit a target with no special vulnerabilities/negations, in pure physical you compare 500 with 150 falling into [2.5, 8] section, while in fire option you compare 300 with 150 and 300 with 150 falling both times into [1, 2.5] section, which obviously gives you worse multiplier, and we all know that. Now, when will split damage be better? Imagine you're dealing crit strike, especially with a weapons with higher crit multi. This will give you a tremendous motion values, bringing both 300s into above 1200, which brings both parts in >=8, and so the only fact that matters will again become that 600 is more that 500. In short, 1. If your motion value brings the parts of your damage way above target's individual defences, split damage is better (because it's total is higher) 2. The most obvious thing with higher motion values is critical strike, hence, split damage is better for your misericorde, just check target's negation and don't hit Mogh with fire. 3. However, things like charged heavy or lion claw may also fall into this category if you're capitalising on that special move with talismans and a flask. 4. But for all other cases non-split with even lower numbers will be better that split.

[@FrownyGaming]

This was well explained. Thank you for your contribution.

[@Woadie757]

This literally answered my question, thank you!

[@fruitsalad2035]

i think this is my all time favorite non-lore elden ring video omg! you are a fantastic teacher, the production and quality of this video is amazing, and it is literally exactly what i wanted to find when i opened youtube. props to you, this is actually such a masterclass in explaining one of the most convoluted and hard to grasp mechanics in these games. only as complicated as it needed to be, very easy to digest, everything is so neat and well organized. even my absolute mess of an adhd-riddled brain processed this, even while cleaning and only listening, not looking at every formula on screen. very well done!!!

[@FrownyGaming]

Your comment means a lot to me. This is exactly the point of the channel, to spread knowledge with as much accuracy as possible. If you want more, there are many guides like this one in the channel. Not only, but this video is only one chapter of a whole series that I made which culminates in the steps that I follow when I make all of my builds. Do not hesitate to check it out. In any case, I really appreciate your kinds words. Thank you.

[@luccadosgames8776]

this video is so good, so well explained from start to finish!

[@FrownyGaming]

I appreciate your comment and kind words. Thank you for your comment.

[@professor7269]

I really love how this guy explains everything This videos should be watched by all Elden Ring players.

[@FrownyGaming]

I am really happy that you enjoyed the video. I hope that more viewers can find the content in the future. Thank you for your comment.

[@xxcodernationxx7876]

i agree with professor7269

[@biggleazy]

Probably your deepest dive yet, Frowny. It's certainly heavy information, but you did a great job of giving the detailed calculations and breakdown, then streamlining it as well. That's not easy to do, but you're shown to be very good at that. Thanks for all the hard work in putting this together and taking the time to share.

[@FrownyGaming]

Damage is definitely the most complicated topic that I have dealt with so far. There were a lot more hidden mechanics that I expected and it required more research that I would have hoped for. Nevertheless, I think that the video came out pretty well. Thank you for your comment.

[@BluePoo52]

Wow excellent work in teaching this topic. It felt like a college lecture with how well you presented topics and went through examples in a step-by-step fashion. Thank you

[@FrownyGaming]

I am very happy that you enjoyed the video. Thank you for your comment and kind words.

[@KillerMoustache]

You absolute madman.

[@FrownyGaming]

This is definitely an obsession. Thank you for your comment.

[@Bruh54025]

This video needs more views and like. I appreciate this info greatly

[@FrownyGaming]

Little by little, the views will come. It is good information, but it's not as useful to all players. I am happy that you found it useful. Thank you for your comment.

[@BlueDragonGaming357]

Good to see you back, Frowny. Hope your mom is doing well.

[@FrownyGaming]

Thank you for asking about my mother. This week we have received news that she 100% cancer free so we are very happy. I appreciate your comment.

[@Galaka100]

Another interesting and comprehensive analysis. Well done.

[@FrownyGaming]

Thank you! I appreciate your comment.

[@madmansprinkles]

I really appreciate stuff like this, because at one point I did a bunch of tests with sacred flame across different stats with different flames and talismans, just to confirm one thing for myself and it was tedious af, just to confirm something I already knew (: Wish I knew the formulae like you do for AR here though, could've made an excel spreadsheet to save so many hours of my life 😅 tbh with this info you could find the builds that do the most damage to each boss and make an average of the build (once you have the boss info) hecc, if you did a survey of each person you encounter in pvp, you could see what is the ideal damage type against the most frequently used armor .-. that would be uber meta tho Super useful info to have ngl (:

[@FrownyGaming]

Oh yeah. This information can be used for some super try-hard theoretical work. There is A LOT we can do with this. That said, it would take a huge amount of time. I prefer to do the research and explanation and let the viewers figure out what they want to do with the tools. Thank you for your comment.

[@vengerofthelight]

Looking at Defense alone, Lightning is far and away the clear winner in PvP. Obviously Negation can throw a wrench in that, though nearly every build trying to push Poise is going to use heavier armor (the bottom two categories, more often than not), which tend to have relatively poor Lightning Negation. Those are only anecdotal observations on my part, though, and have not been subjected to rigorous study.

[@SweartoSpivak]

Omg, this is just perfect. Its always something i wanted to know but nobody talked about it. The damage of what you see in status, the ar, is not the damage you get for a attack. Like you see more ar from cold infused than heavy infused but the final attack comes the other way around. I never found a answer for that. Thank you so much!!!

[@FrownyGaming]

I am happy that you enjoyed the video. Damage is probably the most complicated topic that I have researched so far. There are so many internal mechanics that I was not aware of. At the same time, it is important to know a lot of this information if you are looking to optimize damage output. Thank you for your comment.

[@LeGreech]

i wish that i had teachers like you ^^ ty so much

[@AegisKHAOS]

If I understood you correctly regarding the saturation scaling, that goes a long way in explaining certain arcane scaling weapons and why the letter grade is not always so reliable. That is the biggest takeaway I got from this vid. Much like hardness, saturation scaling exists. Thank you for your findings and the info.

[@FrownyGaming]

Saturation and Letter Scaling work hand in hand. The Letter is something that comes from the weapon, while Saturation is just a fixed number that the game uses based on the Level of the Stat. Together, we get the final number using Base AR. Like you say, sometimes the calculations is misleading and we get more AR than expected. For this reason, it is always a good idea to experiment. There are exceptions and we do not know what we will get. Thank you for your comment.

[@simhae1775]

This is masterpeice of guide!

[@FrownyGaming]

Thank you! I really appreciate your comment and kind words.

[@JeffNyman]

This is a great video with lots of good information. I do think it would help to actually take things the player starts with to learn this. For example, consider the Vagabond's longsword. This is 110 + 22. Starting stats for the Vagabond are STR: 14, DEX: 13. The scaling for STR and DEX are D. You say 0.51 in the video for D scaling but as we've seen, D scaling is a range. So why pick 0.51? That's not clear. If it's based on the weapon, where could I look that up? Then you list STR and DEX saturation values but we really have no idea where those come from either. Are those the only values or, like your D scaling, were those chosen based on something? Without knowing how to find that information, it's hard to plug values into a calculator. (I realize there may be calculators out there that do this already but I'm trying to learn to craft it on my own.)

[@FrownyGaming]

My dear viewer, I mention this in the video. A Longsword has a D-Scaling of 0.51 because the game says it does. Elden Ring decided that this is the scaling of this weapon within the Letter Grade Range. As for Saturation values, they are also predetermined by the game. Elden Ring sets a Saturation for each scaling type of each weapon in the game. In regards to where to find this information, I establish multiple times that this is something that we need to look within the game files with some sort of program that allows us to see the internal measurements. That said, a lot of fantastic members of the Souls community have done a lot of work mining this information and there are some Google doc documents that present it. It is a lot of raw data, but it can be understood with some patience. Hope this helps, thank you for your comment.

[@rocketman3770]

You are amazing, thanks for this boss

[@FrownyGaming]

Thank you! I appreciate your comment and kind words.

[@rickrice8660]

This is awesome information! Thank you! I was really interested in this type of data, for comparing how bows look on paper, but with split damage. Specifically, why the Longbow does more damage than the Horn Bow, versus Godrick type soldiers (Gatefront site of grace). For both bows, without leveling up, using standard arrows, "on paper" with my scaling, I see Longbow = 80 Phys + 27 scaling for 107 and Horn bow = 65 Phys + 22 scaling + 30 Magic + 0 scaling for 117 ... so Horn Bow is 10 points better. Arrows are 45 either way. So, I was really shocked to see actual damage come out as : Longbow = 148 and Horn Bow = 127, making the Horn Bow 21 points worse. ?? Thankfully your example used a Godrick Soldier, so gave me their defense numbers, mostly. My assumption for the arrow's 45 worth of damage is that is just "straight" damage ... no calculation, just added to the result of the bow calculation. So, doing that math, I came up with (roughly) 48 for the Longbow + 45 for the arrow = 93. And for the Horn bow, 9 Physical + 27 magic (note, for the A/D calculation, I thought D would be zero, but that would give a divide by zero error, so used 1 ... the important part is I think they have "no" magic resistance, so the best formula is used) and 45 for the arrow = 81. Now, neither of these numbers match the actuals, so there is either a) something else going on with bow/arrow calculations or b) I have it all jacked up. I am assuming option "a", since both numbers I came up with, when multiplied by (roughly) 1.6, equal the actual numbers I am seeing: Longbow calculation + arrow = 93.14 * 1.588 = 148 Horn Bow calculation + arrow = 80.7 * 1.57 = 127 So, even without knowing the mysterious 1.58 or 1.57 factor going on here, knowing the mechanics of the Attack Rating, Defense Rating, Split damage and Order of application, it does seem to make sense why the "better" looking bow is doing worse. And just for "fun", if both bows were leveled up to the max, ... it still seems the Longbow is better. My numbers come out (without scaling, since I have not leveled them up yet): Long Bow = at 196 rating + arrow = 323 total attack, where the Horn Bow at 159 + 73 Magic + arrow = 260 total attack. I guess I will have to go level them up and retest them on Godrick Soldiers and report back ...

[@rickrice8660]

Yeah, my math on the leveled up bows was off (using the wrong formula tier). I ended up leveling both bows to Level 21*. So, using the math as before, my expected results were: Long bow = 177 + 87 scaling giving total damage of 229, multiplied by my mystery factor of 1.58 from before gives an expected damage of 361 (actual was 346, so close). Horn bow = 142 + 72 scaling and 66 + 1 Magic scaling* giving total damage of about 253, multiplied by my mystery factor of 1.58 from before gives an expected damage of 400 (actual was 307, so not very close) So, the Long Bow started off 16.5 % better performing than the Horn Bow (148 vs 127) and at this point is still 12.7% better (346 vs 307). * Although I leveled up the bows, I have put no INT into my character, so that is really neglecting all scaling (only got 1 point bonus) in Magic damage. So, I assume if I put enough INT into the character stats, the Horn Bow would surpass the Long Bow. But, since I planning on a Bow only run, I had not been planning on spending a lot of INT.

[@FrownyGaming]

I am not in a position to run two full calculations right now, but let me give you a few things to double check. 1. For bows, total AR is Base AR + Damage Scaling + Arrow AR. 2. The physical part of a bow's damage is Piercing-type, governed by the arrow. Make sure that you are using the correct enemy defense/negation 3. For the Horn Bow, remember that you have to do TWO separate calculations: one for the physical AR and one for the Magic AR. Then, you add them together. This is the reason why the Horn Bow would most likely deal less damage. It has to go through 2 Defenses/Negations. Generally speaking, I believe that the Longbow should come out on top due to the pure physical damage. The Horn Bow will lose total damage to the split damage calculations. Thank you for your comment.

[@rickrice8660]

@@FrownyGaming Yes, you are correct. I (and my son) were surprised by this, thinking that opponents like Godrick Soldiers, with little to no magic resistance, should logically take more damage from a split attack, rather than pure physical. That and other videos ranking the Horn Bow higher than the Long Bow. I'll be starting a Bow Only run soon and trying to do "my homework" first, as much as I can ;-)

[@darkl1nx]

You mention in the video (twice I think) about getting some of the numbers like enemy defense from the game files. Is there a list of them somewhere or a tutorial on how to get the info from the game?

[@FrownyGaming]

I will be honest. I am not the appropriate person to ask this question. There is some basic information that can be found on some enemies in the usual wikis. As for actually reading the game files, I am not good at it. It takes me forever to understand what it all actually means. I wish I could be of more help in this case, and I appreciate your comment.

[@darkl1nx]

@@FrownyGaming Thanks! after your comment I looked and found some Google docs with relevant info. Thanks so much for all your work with the formulas!

[@АлШт]

Very interesting, thank you.

[@FrownyGaming]

I am glad that you enjoyed it. Thank you for your comment.

[@АлШт]

@@FrownyGaming Your videos on stance and poise are too, very informative. They are overall well structured. I especially appreciate little video fragments demonstrating concepts like stance break in the game while you explain the numbers. I hope you enjoy analysing the upcoming DLS.

[@Heren-Heart]

Amazing video.

[@FrownyGaming]

Thank you. I appreciate your comment and kind words.

[@krobi26]

thank you!

[@FrownyGaming]

Thank you for your comment.

[@memphis4075]

Hi Frowny, I've made this far in the Making a build series as I'm interested in creating my own builds, so far all the details are on point and even tho I'm more than a thousand hours into the game and watched other tutorials, I've learned some interesting details on these videos, great job. I just have on doubt for this one. For the test a longsword was used while also considering standard defense/negation of the target, but that weapon also does piercing damage, my question is: Does the game equally distribute the physical damage into the weapon types of damage? Makes sense assuming godrick soldier also has 100 defense and 0% negation for piercing damage, or the piercing damage is only considered for the piercing looking attacks of the weapon? Like the crouching R1

[@FrownyGaming]

First of all, I appreciate you watching this series. I am very proud of it and it means the world to me that it is helping another viewer learn. As for your question, it is a good one. The answer is that each specific weapon attack has its own damage type; and then... the weapon stats show all of the damage types that the weapon deals together. So, for the Longsword. I use the enemy's Standard defense/negation because I attack it with an R1. The Longsword's R1 deals Standard-type damage. That said, if I were to have used the R2, which is a poke, I would have had to use the enemy's Pierce defense/negation because this attack deals pierce-type damage. In the stats of the Longsword, you see "standard/pierce" because some attacks deal standard-type damage and other deal pierce-type damage. It is a summary. Every attack deals its own specific damage types. Generally speaking, it is obvious to see: spears deal piercing-type damage, hammers deal strike-type damage, curved swords deal slashing-type damage. That said, there are some exceptions. For example, the Pickaxe is a Great Hammer weapon that deals all piercing-type damage. Hope this clears it up. Thank you for your comment.

[@memphis4075]

@@FrownyGaming Thanks a lot for your answer, and just to add to your appreciation I wanna say that I have 3 over leveled characters (ng+5), each one focused on faith, int and arc respectively while also maximizing str and dex so even tho I have limitations like no incants with the mage, this video made me realize I don't have builds but over leveled characters. This awaken a strong motive to try options out of my comfort zone (which is str) and try full dex builds, or fully commit to spell casting builds rather than only using support spells, so I wanna thank you for being the source for my motivation to try different approaches to the game c: As to the actual question, yes, that does clear it up, I had to read it a couple of times cx but I did get the answer I was lookimg for, thank you very much and again thank you a lot for the impact these videos are having and will have in my elden ring experience as my current goal was to get to ng+7 with each of my 3 characters, it started to feel like a chore until dlc came out, but with the build approach now I am sure I'll be having a lot of fun and for that I really thank you 🙌

[@memphis4075]

Btw regarding the builds, I have it very clear on one idea but it requires a dlc drop that is on the dlc late-game, if you have ever face this kind of situation for a build, what is your approach? Do you have a character ready for ng+1 and respect? Or maybe use the cheat table to get the late-game tools at the beginning of the game? I'm not sure which is best, and I'm thinking ng+ maybe is not that different than fresh ng in terms of challenge

[@spookycafe]

Great video! I'm trying to understang all the proccess. Why Claymore +25 saturation for 55 strenght equals 71.11102799% What formula is used to find this result? Thanks for all the information! Damage calculation really is a complex topic to dive into

[@FrownyGaming]

Scaling Saturation does not have a formula. Or, at least, not one that I was able to see. The game just predetermines these values. To find them, I had to look at the information that was datamined by other Tarnished (bless their work) or I had to look at it myself through Cheat Engines. In order to know that Scaling Saturation of a weapon at specific levels, we have to look it up. It is annoying, but at least the information is out there. Thank you for your comment.

[@Bioguy5]

@@FrownyGaming Do you know of any repository that has all the scaling saturations? I am attempting to make an arsenal build optimizer, but I found that the numbers were off when I calculated based on the raw weapon scaling. It also didn't make sense to me how some weapons could have lower total damage than others even though they has higher scalings. I didn't know about scaling saturation; now it makes sense. I feel like the saturations are a key component of calculating damage that many online aren't aware of. Having that info would really help when crafting builds and arsenals.

[@Anthropropos]

like the way you explain this facts nobody else shows. when you give me the numbers i make you an Excel sheet for that.

[@FrownyGaming]

I try to bring my viewers those hidden bits of information that I am interested in. My obsession with Elden Ring is great, so I like to share the things that I use to make my videos. Thank you for your comment.

[@Bioguy5]

I heard somewhere that elemental split damage does not apply to counter-attacks. So enemies that are in recovery frames/ attack animations will not receive the same amount of damage from split damage as from purely physical damage. Is this true or just misinformation? Or is there something I misinterpreted?

[@FrownyGaming]

I should do a video on Counter Damage. It seems to confuse many players. To answer your question: Correct. Counter Damage does not apply to Elemental damage. In fact, Counter Damage only applies to Pierce Damage. It does not help with Strike or Slash Damage either. This is because when a character is in the middle of an attack (and thus, vulnerable to counter damage) the Piercing Defense is reduced by 30% I believe. I have to double check the number. In any case, I have to sit down and do some tests to verify all of this information. I am working off the top of my head. Hope this helps. Thank you for your comment.

[@katanamaru1]

Lots of info here. Never heard of the saturation stat on weapons before.

[@FrownyGaming]

Me too. I had no idea about Saturation Scaling until I began researching this topic. And honestly, Damage is probably the most complicated thing that I have dealt with so far. There is SO much that goes into. Sometimes I wonder if too much. In any case, thank you for your comment.

[@joelalexis7664]

Build video coming next? 👀

[@FrownyGaming]

Absolutely. Next upload is the Toolbox Strength Build. I have already begun gathering all of the assets to produce the video. Thank you for your comment.

[@joelalexis7664]

@@FrownyGaming Can't wait! Your build videos are going to be my go to for building my first and second characters. I've already watched all of them before even making a proper build haha.

[@Ralagathenovel]

They Elden ring doesn’t tell you anything about motion values is absurd. It’s part of the reason the twin blades become so powerful in like NG+ 5-7 when compared against things like colossal swords, which outperform them in NG+ 1-4 because enemy negation gets higher, but status are based on health percentages and bypass negation bonking something over the head with a big stick is really fun, but it just doesn’t work at a certain point getting as many hits as possible also progressively reduces poise other things as well I don’t understand why they couldn’t do this I play war frame and they tell you the motion values on the attacks and explain to you how much damage you’re going to do end of what elemental type and what you’re guaranteed to prank on a specific attack why couldn’t they do that here? Just put it in a little section at the bottom of the weapon because the game would have you think that big colossal weapon hit harder than twin blade and it does but two light attack rotations of Eleanore’s poleblade does a massive amount of poise damage and makes most bosses perishable if you connect them twice

[@FrownyGaming]

I mean this is how Souls games work. FromSoft made a deliberate decision to not be open about the internal game mechanics. Fortunately, the community is filled with capable scholars that can test and experiment in order to have this information presented. Thank you for your comment.

[@815TypeSirius]

I am 3 months late but here I am.

[@FrownyGaming]

Glad to have you. Thank you for your comment.

[@ChatGBTChats]

Fuuudge i wanted to get sweaty and learn to min max on elden ring but i think i might just stick to themed builds with semi efficient stats 🤣

[@FrownyGaming]

My favorite thing to do is be super sweaty with my themed builds. The priority is fun, but it’s optimized, efficient fun. Don’t be intimidated by the damage calculations. For the most part the are not needed. The important part is to just know how AR works to be able to plan top damage. Thank you for your comment.

[@lampshade6579]

I used your guides for my first ever Elden Ring/Souls like playthrough. And I know everyone ever thinks you should experience the game first, without making a statistically perfect build, and know all the equipment you'll get. But I couldn't disagree more.

[@FrownyGaming]

I believe that your first playthrough should always be completely clean with no help from guides. That is how I did it. That said, I respect the players that do like to have the extra information. I am happy to hear that you found my guides useful. I appreciate your comment.

[@Stretch213]

Still listening

[@stephencornelius3396]

You say at the start that we can calculate stuff. Then you say that some of the stuff is hidden. Most people would never open the files. If you want to post those files or better, create an app, great, but this is just meaningless chatter.

[@FrownyGaming]

Interesting comment. You judged the full video as "meaningless chatter" because you seem to be incapable of doing simple research. You know? This is a learning opportunity for other viewers, so let's solve your problem. Let's get started. 1. Go to google.com 2. Search for "Elden Ring Scaling Data" 3. Browse results - Find a Reddit post named "Elden Ring Datamined Resource Collection" (It's the 11th result) 4. Click link - Find "Scaling Data" section 5. Click spreadsheet link - Find raw data This took a total of 2 minutes of time. There is a possibility that you took longer to write your comment than it would have taken to find the information that you need. And yet, for whatever reason, you believe that it is a better use of your time to complain about your issue rather than finding a solution for it. But that's not all. I am going to paste the link in this comment in case that you are unable to follow directions. Here it is: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zoJIRmr-00XC1Rd-SwIpeNoHNpehY2kRHoh-4WeACxc/edit#gid=507492505 (Credit: CryptidTracker) Now, with that out of the way, let's go back to the "meaningless chatter". Let's assume that you choose to remain ignorant. Let's assume that you refuse to spend two minutes of your time finding the information that you seek. Even in these conditions, the video has very useful information that can be applied to general Elden Ring build-making. For example, the system that is used to calculate the way that an attack is affected by a character's defense and negation. Furthermore, you can find information about how split damage is treated in the game. And finally, we have visual representations of an actual calculation that evidences the accuracy of the system. I don't know what your opinion is on the matter, but I believe that this is extremely meaningful. I hope that this has helped you understand the content of the video. I appreciate your comment. Thank you.

[@stephencornelius3396]

You call that “simple” research.@@FrownyGaming