How fandom erases LGBTQ+ idols & fans | Problematic K-pop opinions #3

[@moonbathingrite]

05:19 What do you think about the We Got Married rumour? I hate to say this, but IMO, it's possible as a part of companies' strategies to "bury the (suspected) gays.” Now, as BL gets more popular, expect more greedy queerbaiting in the future, and more shipping as a commodity. Anything goes. I recommend Trixie & Katya video for more unfiltered “gay education." It feels good to let out the things that have been bothering me for too long.

[@lunejin8125]

Heteronormativity together with gender stereotypes and South Korea’s conservative views towards the LGBTQIA+ community really affects not just the fans’ views but also the idols’ ideas towards the acceptance of their identities. Also, no matter how welcoming some fans are, there are still those who ignore or just completely erase the possibilities or literally the hints given by their idols about their sexuality. Up to this day I’m still confused about how so many fans would be shocked with Yoongi’s “pansexual” statement. Many would say he can’t be that since he gives off a bad boy aura or whatever they say or the time people would assume that Moonbyul is a lesbian or the top in a homo relationship just because she’s androgynous. Being a part of the community myself, stereotypes makes me question my own identity. Being under a spectrum that is not commonly represented, people would assume I’m just trying to be “unique” or whatever. So yeah, what I am saying is just because someone does not fit your stereotype that should not have existed in the first place, does not mean they are not a part of it. Just because they don’t out themselves, does not mean they are excluded from the community. Idols or people in general don’t owe you anything. Specially their gender identities and sexualities. If they decide to come out in the future then let’s support them. But if they decide to stay hidden because they feel safe in their closet, then all we can do is be understanding and wish them happiness, because to be honest, the open world is scary.

[@quintessence_9482]

Although I am not part of the spectrum, I totally agree to your statement about not expecting people to come out. Do we expect heterosexual people to "come out"? We don't right. I hope this coming out ceases to exist eventually and we create an environment where people come first and not how they identify themselves.

[@riley5142]

thank u so much for this. as a gay man and long time fan of kpop, I’ve often found the issue of “speculating ab sexualities” to be a very nuanced topic that fans never seem to grasp the complexity of. on the one hand, no, it is never right to stereotype and classify someone as queer or het based on preconceived societal notions of sexuality. this is where the “speculating ab sexualities” problem actually seems negative to me. however, a lot of fans take their opposition to speculation too far and insist that u can never say u think an idol might be queer bc it could negatively affect their career or bc u shouldn’t speculate at all. i take issue w this side as well bc it’s so debilitating as a queer fan to have so little representation in kpop and know that idols have to stay in the closet to please the fans and their companies. this is where I think “speculation” comes in for a lot of queer ppl, bc fans r just trying to find outward queer representation in a world where it is silenced and covered. also, I find that a lot of fans who r against talking ab idols’ sexualities r often just very homophobic and view all idols as straight, which is another problem in itself.

[@fierte]

"We'll take any breadcrumbs of acceptance out there".. yea you broke my heart there because i've thought that before.. I feel for the idols.. They can't be straight.. they can't be lgbt+.. they have to exclude a personal life for success to be sustainable and that's just depressing to think about. I hope all of them are able to fight back against toxic culture and live free someday.

[@moonbathingrite]

And yet people say that we always exaggerate whenever idols show their allyship like taking the LGBT flag (Sunmi, Yeri) or smiling at it (many idols, I believe). It's because we're so starved those breadcrumbs mean a lot to us. I don't understand why celebrating that and being happy can be considered as inappropriate or "harmful" for the idols.

[@fierte]

@@moonbathingrite everytime someone uses a genderless question, your eyes kind of brighten and first you think "wow.. will they accept?" and then the fear strikes "wow.. wait.. do they know about me?" having to assume your fave's support until they show otherwise but always worrying in the back of your mind that maybe they don't accept you. So we nitpick every action hoping to convince ourselves that we are supported. It's not a fun existence. On the flip side, sometimes you identify with someone and then you start to project onto them and the real worry begins. "are they really ok? it must be so tough". This parasocial existence is so strange.

[@098Lena]

You're doing very very important thing. I hope many people can see this video

[@RogueSpace]

First of all, kudos to this video. I'm sure this took a lot (blood, sweat and tears?) from you. The topic is daunting. Your video essay is sure to break minds of your viewers. Secondly, I was quite surprised that an actual BL cafe exists in SK coz as you mentioned, cultural values vs. cultural consumption. Finally, I want to applaud your voice and your channel for this topic because it taught me how I can be a better and kinder person with anyone I know or meet in the future who is part of the LGBTQ+ community. At least now i know that there are things some people do without knowing that they are hurting someone else (like the gay jokes and the assumption of one's sexuality based on appearances or hobbies). I do hope more people can view your video and may you continue to share other valuable lessons through your channel and your stories. I really liked what you made! Thank you for this!

[@moonbathingrite]

I'm confused about the whole BL culture, too, because of the contrast. Kelsey said in the video, she also doesn't think that this whole situation will be helpful for the LGBT community in Korea. It's just capitalistic, or, at the very least, performative. Still, there must be some people who change their perspectives because of the "gay content" and I hope that's what happened with so many people who support Jinkook 💜

[@RogueSpace]

@@moonbathingrite i'm definitely one of them. I learned to appreciate gays more after reading BL manga. Mainly because the narrative of such stories were so pure and yet the struggles were quite real. I also realized that although it was through fiction, i felt empathy and sympathized with the plight of love and hate. I actually encouraged my gay friends and family to aspire to having a true love that will stick by your side especially when the whole world seems to be against you. I mean to say that love is love whether your straight or gay, and an honest and true love should be a priority in a relationship. Coz yes, some fics may portray them as fickle or promiscuous but that should not be the endgame. Companionship that brings emotional maturity and stability is essential. In the end, we all live in the same world so it's up to all of us to find a way to live with each other peacefully. Things have to change and hopefully for the better, especially for those whom society "erases" or ignores.

[@georginaharroll365]

If people could understand that we all have our own kind of problem, no matter who we are, where we are, how we are etc, and that through this simple knowledge, we shouldn't make one another's lives living hell (this statement of mine doesn't have anything to do with accepting matters or not), the world would be a much more beautiful and comfortable place for all of us to live in. As always kudos to you, luv.

[@silverplim]

thank you for speaking up! this video mentioned a lot of good points. realistically, every kpop group probably has a member of the lgbt community. just because they're closeted doesn't mean the groups are 100% straight.

[@agagreen2733]

Dear Q, thank you for guiding us to the complexities of the K-pop industry. As expected, perfect research and summary. 1. Fans' love towards idols should BE unconditional, cos as the human- they do not belong to us. 2. Idols owes us nothing, especially an explanation about their orientation or coming out. Much water will flow in the Han River before the people with the spectrum can express themselves freely, but let us not lose hope that it will eventually happen.💜

[@moonbathingrite]

True, "coming out isn't mandatory" is so important because many shippers see coming out as the end of their shipping journey, hence pushing the idols to do so. But it's a choice that we all should respect. They might already come out, just not to us, fans. We hear a lot of "The company keeps them apart and stop them from coming out" but what if they're the ones who choose to keep the relationship in secret? It's certainly possible. The previous argument is yet another heteronormative way to see a multilayered issue.

[@beanie4815]

Thank you so much for another amazing (and beautiful) essay. LOVE the inclusion of Trixie and Katya and I noticed that you subscribe to Contrapoints whom I also adore. Her video on comphet was so heartbreaking and raw?? It was the first time I'd heard of the term and really opened my eyes to how fluid and averse to labelling gender and sexuality can be. Language can be so inexact and the fact that society expects us to designate proper names to these human identities can be so frustrating. The BL webtoons and manhwa are disappointing on a whole due to their perpetuation of heteronormative stereotype of 'cute, innocent boy'= the bottom/'girl' stand-in and the 'manly, muscular guy' = the top. For all their r*pe-adjacent scenes and supposed taboo aspect of 'forbidden love', it's all very vanilla and boring. Looking forward to a webtoon that explores a healthy, fun, gay relationship (smth like Jinkook's dynamics!). To ask about one of your points, is it really true that people cannot queerbait? Not speaking about Jimin in particular because he is genuinely touchy and affectionate. I was thinking more of a situation where an idol uses queerbait to draw attention away from a straight dating rumour. Is this possible too? By my logic idols are still made to do stuff by the company as even a whiff of 'scandal' in their personal lives can affect income. Idk just wanted to put forth that point. Sad that the entire culture of showbiz and dating is so infantilising, like these people really are viewed as products to be sold, hence the term 'idol' and not 'artist'. I truly admire your vision, Q, of a better fan culture. Let's hope more people can get aboard this mission.

[@moonbathingrite]

I LOVE the biological women so much ❤️ Contrapoints is undeniably great; contributes a lot to my self-acceptance especially after watching "Shame." She introduces me to the worldview of a transperson, and I have a trans friend, so I can support him better. But surprisingly, Katya's old Periscope stream is also a golden mine of wisdom (someone uploaded it on KZbin). On queerbaiting: For this question, it's time to separate the person with the persona. When companies encourage idols to do "gay stuffs" for whatever reasons, it's not them as individuals, but them as idols. They might not have any say on that. The MV on 0:42 is from Onlyoneof and they kind of have a "gay concept" so it's expected for the members to do those things. The leader has already left though he didn't state the reason. But the problem with Jimin is people often criticise him for himself. On BL: My introduction to BL, as usual, is started from video essays by James Somerton. Then I started to explore it by myself, and I see why people are so obsessed with uke/seme since it's just the way it is on the BL. It's so RARE to find someone who's a switch, or a more dominant bottom. And the size difference between the couple only makes it resemble a man-woman relationship, instead of a man-man relationship. If you want a good story that portrays a natural relationship between the characters, usually it's under "shounen ai" instead of "yaoi."

[@Alex-mo9og]

That was a beautiful ending to a great video! :')

[@rixts6]

Thanks for the amazing video as always you talk about major issues in k-pop that no one really points out ,it's an eye opener for everyone in the fandom. 👍🏻💜

[@jenovella70]

I had to come back to watch this again. Such a well done and thoughtful presentation. Thank you.

[@quintessence_9482]

I was waiting for Wednesday eagerly and refreshing your channel for the video to come up and finally it's here. Ever since I came across your channel, I wait for your thought provoking emphathetic contents as they make my heart full. This is brilliant just like your past creations. Just as you mentioned through the love for our idols we can hope to broaden the mindset of the closeted society where the act of coming out is no longer needed. With content such as yours we can surely hope to achieve that someday. Atleast we can dream. Complete eradication is too much of a daydream but we can surely try to establish a safe and accepting environment for all people regardless of the gender identity. I mean why would it matter to a third person as to whom one should/shouldn't like. The thought itself baffles me now as I continue to try to broaden my mindset too because I may still be lacking and not emphathetic enough. Like you mentioned what we perceive as harmless may not actually be to the person it is pointed too. So we must stop, think, try to understand and support each other. I really love how you put such beautiful thoughts into words and then spin them into these enamouring videos. I will continue to support you while you keep educating us and share your understanding on this. ❤️

[@Kathleen19960212]

Thank you for this in-depth analysis :"( even if I might not be able to understand fully of your hardships, I will continue to learn and stand by you. My country has legalized same-sex marraige approximately a year ago. While it is a huge milestone, I feel like we still have a long way to go and need to constantly educate ourselves... heteronormativity is everywhere, sigh. For the points you highlighted, there are some that resonate with me too: the "traits" of being a certain gender identity can be over-generalizing and based upon heuristics or stereotypes. When I first got into BTS I was so intrigued by the choreography of Spring Day. I adore the contemporary dance-inspired choreo and their portrayal of the storyline in the music. I was also really mesmerized by the fluidity in Jimin's dance. I later learned that he gradually got to show how loving and caring of a person he was over the years, and I love him for that. Moonbyul from Mamamoo showcases clean and powerful dance moves especially in her solo works, has a strong stage presence when she performs, prefers pants over dresses or skirts, and is goofy and tomboy-ish. And that's the way she is, our amazing Moonstar who refuses to be addressed as cute (lol) but is truly a gem nevertheless. After getting to know more about them I find no problem addressing biological males as beautiful and biological females as handsome (as long as they are comfortable with the terms of course). Yet their disposition or aura should not lead to assumptions of their sexualities or gender identities. Those are totally private and up to them to decide whether or not to share with anyone. Apart from that I am so happy you mentioned the Solarsido episode where NANA came on the show! Watching their interactions made me feel so warm inside, as they really showed genuine love and respect for each other. Thank you for this analysis and please rest well during your break! Wish you all the best, and stay safe and healthy please :)

[@moonbathingrite]

While making this video, I realised that my biggest enemy isn't homophobia, but heteronormativity. It's much harder to change it, but well, at least I do something about it even if it's just a tiny contribution. Thank you for your kind wishes. Have a nice end of the year as well.

[@moora5341]

What to say about the video, informative as always. As the video is about 100% straight so I think I will like to share my own situation with you because somehow it is similar as you mention. I live in country lies somewhere in south Asia. From the very beginning, I had learn about marriage can only happen between two same religion, same caste and opposite sex people. Inter religion marriage and Inter caste are also not fully accepted by people in my country. So same sex marriage is beyond imagination. (but not according to the law) As when I was 15 yrs old, I had fully accept myself as being part of LGBTQ+ community. It been yrs but still I am not able to reveal it to my own family. Or to those friends who have very positive attitude toward the LGBTQ+ people. And somehow it is similar to those closet idols. As a fan we can't say about anything because it is much more difficult to come out then we think even to their family members and groupmate. Even to accept ourselves being part of LGBTQ+ community is so hard. Another thing, even though in future South Korea may legalize homosexual relationship or LGBTQ+ people will get full rights from the law. The important think I see in this is that nothing can change if the people will not be aware or their thinking will not change then there is less chance of people acceptance towards queer people . Because law can't change the thinking of people, if the law would have change then I don't think I have to hide my sexuality from my own family and friends. Because the country where I live have given full rights to LGBTQ+ people. Homosexual people are not criminalize and homosexual marries are also legal. But due to lack of awareness that some people of my country even don't know what is homosexual which includes people of my society. So the first step in it is to create the awareness and positive attitude among other people towards us( which you have been doing now moonbathingrite). In my opinion, we should be the one to be part of those awareness program rather then wait to other people to talk about it. As those people can't understand the things we have been suffering. Thankyou MBR and lots of love.

[@moonbathingrite]

Hello, thank you for sharing. I agree with your point. We often see the US as a forward-thinking, progressive country in terms of human rights, and yet homophobia is still there. So, law alone isn't enough-won't be enough. It's more about the people. I notice we, as fans, spend a lot of energy blaming the companies, the K-pop industry, etc but not enough spend of spreading the awareness or discussing the situations thoroughly. Sometimes we forget that we're also responsible for what happens inside the fandom, and the industry won't make such decisions if there's no demand from the consumers.

[@moora5341]

​@@moonbathingrite I think rather than thinking about what the country law has. Just before it we should think twice about what's the matter. For example South Korea is a democratic country so their law will write what the majority of their citizen will want in that. Maybe the citizen don't want homosexual couple to wander around their country. Maybe thats why the country has illegalized homosexual relationship and vice verse. So that's why law is not important as the thinking of people matter. As like you say, I completely agree with your point about blaming third person when it is somehow directly or indirectly is also our responsibility for something to happen within us. And in this point, I will like to link it to some LGBTQ+ community people thinking. Like we will not even try to create awareness by ourselves but will sometime question other person for not speaking about it. We will depend upon other person to come forward and speak for us. In this type of situation I have always think that - don't we have ability to fight for our own identity. Even if I haven't reveal my sexuality to anyone but I have actually change the attitude of some of my friends toward the queer people. So slowly we should try to create the awareness within our family, friends society, maybe one day we will be successful and we don't have to be afraid of talking about our sexuality (if needed only) with other person.

[@deliana.8430]

Ngl.. I was once that certain people that have narrow-minded or even queerbaiting some idols, and I'm sorry for that. It's quite shocking when a straight girl like me who was born and raised in a very religious family to find and come to some kpop fandom in late 2017 and find this interesting thing called "shipping" and the more shocking was they shipping the same sex idol. I was drowning in the euphoria of shipping and quite lost. Your videos save me btw, you educate me, you make me more understand what is happening and open my eyes. Hope good things always happen to you, take care and see you in your next video. And yeah, never give up with hate comments ok... Keep making videos like this or jinkook videos hehehe.. Keep educating us.. Love you.

[@lesliemonroy7038]

I love your videos and i really admire the way you think, so mature. Thanks for the video and keep going.

[@gettingbold1203]

Very and informative, thank you, I hope it reaches to many more people. How badly I wish I can support in a more meaningful way to each every bold❤️ soul out there. Love, Respect, Pride, Joy, Empathy etc what we feel about an celebrity or any person should not be ruined by as trivial thing as their gender. Hope young kids/children’s at least don’t have to face this, our society should be more open and inclusive by then🤞🌈🤞.

[@emptysky5026]

The main problem is, Korea is very narrow minded on this topic as well as the majority of the Asian countries. So, even there are several of LGBTQ idols, they won't come out for their own safety or career. Eventually, they may get married according to social norm. And one thing for sure just like this generation, there were may be LGBTQ idols in older generation too. But, they hadn't come out. Many of them are happily married even have their children. So, chances of current idols being come out or being in public, is a rare chance. But with the changes in society, it may bring a safe place for them to be open in public. We can hope for that. But we are happy if they are happy with their partners regardless of their sexuality.

[@moonbathingrite]

Yes, even if the gay idol engages in a lavender marriage or lies to the world that they're straight, they have the right to do so. It's a personal thing and we can't force them.

[@emptysky5026]

@@moonbathingrite I haven't completed watching the video, but what about the 'We got married' rumor? I haven't heard about it?

[@emptysky5026]

@@moonbathingrite yeah, that's right. They can have whatever they want to have. We as fan have to respect their decision.

[@moonbathingrite]

It's on the small blue box on 05:20

[@Deerangler0604]

Thank you for making another exceptional educational video. Ever since I got into Kpop about 21 months ago, I got exposed to terms such as shipping and fan service. Before that those two words were not part of my vocabulary and that doesn’t mean I am ignorant, just that it never crossed my mind. What I also found surprised me was the surge of BL everything in countries such as SK where it’s lgbtq+ not prevalent as we (outsiders) are led to believe. To me it seems BL is great for business but it’s frowned upon if it was reality. Like you cannot expect an outsider to believe there are “zero to no” lgbtq+ people in any public or private sectors in SK for example. Are there any change for inclusion laws expected in the near future or will life just go on in the closet for the many?

[@moonbathingrite]

There has been a long discussion for the anti-discrimination bill that was proposed in 2017, but as of Nov 2021, it never goes to the finalisation stage, though it's also about race, disability, etc.

[@moonchild-kk8lt]

Had a really strong sense of gaydar till i realized I was gay. It was very enlightening. Also your videos are amazing and for the hiatus, im gonna miss you on youtube. Take care on your endeavors.

[@moonbathingrite]

Lol, that's relatable. But for me, I'm very much invested in learning about LGBTQ+ and advocating for it. Why do I care so much? Am I this protective of my friends? Then one day I had an epiphany, and everything makes sense haha.

[@snowshadow1066]

Thank you for your very important video. You are so sincere in your approach. Would it be possible to have french sustitles as well please? Thank you!

[@moonbathingrite]

You can use the auto-translate feature available on the CC. It can be translated into all languages available.

[@silverplim]

also your voice is really soft and pretty ❤️

[@Phaze_360]

Good point

[@dee98]

This is a great video!

[@fergieesmirelda8952]

Hi, it's been a long time. we miss your analysis about jinkook a lot. please come back 😌

[@dianamunoz4296]

Kpop stans obsession with their fave artists being queer is so weird because when they end up actually possibly being queer, they get offended

[@97rookie5]

Thanks for the wonderful video, I really liked the content 😳 This is a question from a very clueless person in the realms of gender and sexuality, and I’d like anyone to teach me, but is it okay to just believe and talk based on what the idols say until they actually say something different? Just as an example, in an old Vlog, Jin from BTS talks about his dream of cooking with his future wife and how he burnt the food he was cooking while daydreaming about it (I found that really cute by the way 😂), but is it like okay to think or talk in the pretense he wants a wife…? 🤔 Regardless of what the truth is, I genuinely thought it was better to go along with what they say towards their fans because it’s what they want us to believe. Now I’m a little confused 😵‍💫 Anyway, it was a really good video for a clueless person like me to ponder over, so thank you!! Will be looking forward to your next videos too!!

[@moonbathingrite]

I agree that we should stick to what he says, but keep in mind that no idols in Korea can say otherwise. Most gay people in conservative country use heteronormative answers all the time, including me. In another case, a person can say that he's not gay but only because he's in denial or pressured. And don't forget that he can also be bi/pan, so technically, he can have a wife and is still attracted to men. So, the possibilities are endless, but we don't have to think too much about it since it's his private business. All we can do is be open to those possibilities (and also that he is, indeed, straight). Besides that bit on Bangtan Log, Jin also mentioned that he wants to visit the beach with a girlfriend in BTS Go. Then, there's also a fansign when he answered, "I'm not gay," though the question isn't about that. It's "What's Jin Hyosang to you?" So, he spoke about it several times. These are old clips, though.

[@moonbathingrite]

If only people would just accept LGBTQ+ it won't be this confusing 😅

[@97rookie5]

@@moonbathingrite Thank you for your kind answer, and I’m sorry if my ignorance offended you in any way 😢 I’m from a very conservative country just across the sea from South Korea and trying to learn. Thanks to you, I’ve learned the stance of not assuming and accepting all, so again, thanks for the great video!

[@moonbathingrite]

No worries, I'm happy that more people want to learn about this topic. Thank you for being an ally!

[@alexb4310]

Well said 👏👏👏

[@ZulkaGbr]

Please comback your new video 😭

[@moonbathingrite8123]

I'm just here to boost the algorithm lol

[@moonbathingrite]

Thank you. I use the auto-translate feature for all non-English subtitles so it won't be perfect, but I hope it's helpful enough 😊