How many lands should you run in EDH?

[@owenkelly6657]

I feel personally attacked and will remove lands from all me decks in protest.

[@t_daddy_mtg]

Goblin Charbelcher EDH, get there!!

[@livedandletdie]

@@t_daddy_mtg I don't see a problem with that. Not even for Charbelcher.. but the biggest problem then is if the opponent runs Sméagol. If they do you lose. Unless you have Gaea's Blessing. Or like OG Kozilek or OG Ulamog.

[@EgorTimatkov]

OMG finally a youtube video about lands that I 100% agree with. I find it so strange that people insist on 24 lands in constructed (40%), insist on 17 lands in Draft (42.5%) and then somehow, in the format famous for big splashy plays, the format in which it's completely reasonable to make land drops 'till turn 6, people say things like "35 is a good baseline."

[@t_daddy_mtg]

I think a lot of EDH players get so excited about including all their favorite cards in a deck that they forget to prioritize actually being able to play those cards. For example, with a Jodah deck, it’s easy to get caught up in the idea of finally having a home for every awesome high-mana-value legendary you own. Playing lands isn't exciting so people cut those to make room, and end up with a deck that acts more like a wishlist of their favorite cards than something which actually has a functional gameplan

[@AgentMurphy286]

35 lands is a holdover from when 8x8 deck building was a popular method. Even then, you still wanted to make sure you had enough lands, so you’d drop some cards to add the lands you need.

[@yurisei6732]

@@t_daddy_mtg Although then I'd argue that this exhibits the limitations of MTG's 30 year old game design - the way that people naturally want to play the game causes them to lose the game, and standing a reasonable chance of winning the game requires taking out a significant number of fun cards in favour of cards so boring they feature the word "basic". If this were any other game, the popular narrative would be "change how mana works". With it being far too late for MTG now, what we need to be seeing is more lands printed that feel fun to include, lands that play into whatever your deck's theme is supposed to be, as opposed to just the boring necessary evil.

[@Zaxophone32]

The thumbnail says 39 +/-6. I see no reason to watch the video. From now on I’ll just use a random number generator to determine how many more or fewer lands than 39 I will be playing in a deck, context be damned

[@fhgwdads05]

I think this might actually be a better way of analyzing the land requirements of a deck than the common ways I've seen bandied around (e.g. 37 lands + 13 ramp sources, etc). Treating card draw as part of the equation, particularly repeatable card draw in the command zone, is a valuable consideration. I've definitely experienced flooding when I get repeatable card draw in the midst. That said, I'm happy that you gave the caveat to treating low-CMC land retrieval spells as lands of making sure you can still make your normal land drop that turn. It can be easier than assumed to whiff on those some times.

[@biostem]

I really like how you've systematized how to approach this. Great video.

[@t_daddy_mtg]

Glad you liked it!

[@yurisei6732]

About 10 is fine if you get good at drawing them when you need them.

[@EgorTimatkov]

This is some refreshing analysis, pointing out some underrated facts, and it's not condescending or rude. Incredible work. Subscribed!

[@t_daddy_mtg]

Thank you for the kind words! Welcome aboard 🫡

[@Temzilla2]

TL;DW: More than the average person is running. The #1 commander on EDHRec right now is (still) atraxa, and it's average deck has 34 lands. The top 10 commanders are Atraxa 34, Ur Dragon (9 cmc) 35, Yuriko 29, Krenko 32, Lathril 32, Sauron 34, Kenrith 33, Edgar 34, Miirym 33, Kaalia 35. Not a single deck in the top 10 is playing the bare minimum that I apply to my casual decks of 36. You have to get all the way down to the precon commander Pantlaza at rank 18 to get to a 36 land deck. Considering that deck came out of the box with 39, I'd say it's probably even an outlier.

[@oxpolitik]

I run the highest number of lands on the EDHRec page between overall, cheap, and expensive.

[@charohazard]

what id recommend people do for each deck is atart with a little less lands than this guideline say 36 but mark 3 cards with a sticker or something and when you draw them evaluate whether that or a land would have been better, then increase the land count if you are unhappy with them as nonlands a majority of the time

[@ToxicAtom]

I like running 40 because counting the commanders, it's a 60/40 split nonland/land, which just sounds nice

[@FiveFootFall]

All my decks have 40. Don't know where the trend to run less came from, but it seems to be screwing some folks.

[@lumensmith9787]

I play 22-30 lands generally, but I also play hyper-efficient commanders and/or have very low costs in my deck. My one exception is my Alania Wizard tribal list, where I run waaaaay under my average cost because she's so unbelievably good at drawing a ton of cards fast, that I never struggle. It also runs a ton of low cost card advantage.

[@timbombadil4046]

39 with MDFCs/channel Lands/LotR Land Cycling is easy to hit (and my baseline). For decks built this way mana flood/screw are rare and much less severe.

[@t_daddy_mtg]

The LotR Land Cycling cards are a good callout! Anything which can either cycle for a land or be played as a spell is ideal for EDH

[@JPNox]

It's also good to make sacrifices to RNGJesus to avoid 0 land hands, 7 land hands or stuff like finally connecting Obeka Splitter of Seconds with Twilight Prophet only to draw 6 lands in a row

[@keystonerecords4541]

fascinating stuff

[@Tassooow]

I just use a Land calculator. Most of Decks run between 32-35 due to modals, mana rocks and mana curve

[@t_daddy_mtg]

Which calculator do you use?

[@EgorTimatkov]

The video touches on this, but mana rocks aren't a replacement for lands. Just in the literal sense, they are played to do different things (aside from tapping for mana, I suppose). If you're ever playing a mana rock instead of a land (which is the expected outcome of replacing your lands with mana rocks), then you're just needlessly wasting mana. Cheap draw spells, however can replace lands, though. Since every card you draw is 40% (or I guess in your case 35%) land.

[@siosilvar]

​@@EgorTimatkov The expected outcome of dropping 1 land for every 2 rocks is that you get to 4-6 mana faster and more consistently, which *dramatically* improves most decks. This is how you even get to 39 lands in the first place - Frank Karsten's math puts the actual optimal number of lands at 42, but most of the time you're running 6-8 two-mana rocks or ramp spells. Draw spells don't replace lands 1:1 either. It's 1 land to every 2.5-3 draw spells because of that exact ratio you've mentioned.

[@diegoperezsommariva2509]

One thing ive noticed is that many players dont understand the value of consistency and also of mulligans. Players that have a deck that can go off hard but do so once every 6 games only, because they always get mana screwed. Also, if you run enough mana production or card draw you can actually keep a hand with good cards because you will surely have mana to play them. Also you can mulligan more safely without fearing going to 4 because no lands. Id rather have a moderate chance on every game I play rather than go off one game and then do nothing the following 5 games.

[@Arctanis-vt3hl]

I've always thought of this as a weird take. You can't rely on mulligans, because it is a random process. It is NOT a skill. You can mulligan 1-3 times and not get what you want. It's not something to say, "it's okay I didn't get a good hand, I'll just use my mulligan skills". The last place you want to be is in a position where you have to mulligan beyond the free one.

[@diegoperezsommariva2509]

@@Arctanis-vt3hl mulliganing is a choice, and the outcome of your mulligan depends on how your deck has been built for consistency. You can build a deck in a way that you can mulligan for better hands, because you play with probability through deckbuilding. Its not only about getting the right amount of lands. Perhaps you are still new to the game, but mulliganing choice is something you can work on if you know your deck well.

[@zweis]

I feel personally gratified and will add more MDFCs to all me decks in accordance

[@Mazz-Mayhem]

My favorite deck runs 34 lands 14 pieces of ramp and about 15 pieces of draw. 4 lands being mdfcs. Can only think of 2 times ive completely flunked a game on mana. This is a commander deck btw.

[@dongdoodler]

I run 36 in all my decks, I however run a lot more card draw than most. Most of my decks keep a full hand usually discarding a few lands every game, I can't play all the time so consistency in my decks is very important.

[@CSDragon]

One of the most unintuitive things I ever learned in my journey of MTG is that if your deck has more draw, you want more lands not less. Conventional wisdom is that if you draw a lot of cards, you don't need as many lands. After all, if you drew a bunch of cards one of them will be a land. But here's the thing. You need to get there first. Which means hitting your land drops before your draw engine comes online. So, in reality it's reversed. Drawing lots of cards means you can run _less spells_ (more lands) because you will draw into more spells.

[@nathanielnizard2163]

setup your whole deck and barely shuffle it, like real human beings do.

[@tcgbattlingmaster925]

I start at 34 and go up/down depending on ramp, draw and curve.

[@EgorTimatkov]

I would be careful replacing your lands with ramp. The obvious outcome of replacing lands with ramp is that you will end up playing ramp instead of making land drops on later turns: Effectively wasting mana. The video touches on this, but ramp doesn't replace lands in any meaningful way even though they both add mana. You want to play a land on every turn that you ramp in order to make the best use out of your ramp.

[@FiveFootFall]

Usually with ramp you want to run more lands so you still draw them after you've searched them up and thinned your deck.

[@reiverdaemon]

The amount of thinning that happens from a ramp spell or 2 is unnoticeable. And I'd rather have an extra spell and miss a land drop on turn 6 when I likely already have 7-10 mana

[@EgorTimatkov]

​@@reiverdaemon I agree that the thinning isn't a big effect, but having 7-10 mana by turn 6 is actually very unlikely (7-10 mana without playing 6 lands). Not only do you have to somehow ramp 2-5 mana in 5 turns (Which can happen, but most decks can only ramp 1 mana consistently, and 2+ only occasionally), but also with 34 lands you have more than a 60% chance (hypergeometric calculator) of never making your 5th land drop. Again, I'm assuming you're not drawing a bunch of cards. If somehow your deck has ramped 2+ mana and also drawn several additional cards by turn 5, then I have no qualms with your new CEDH deck, I suppose. That sounds like really good tuning to be honest.

[@bluelink44]

I run 36 lands with 10 mana sources (rocks, dorks, ramp) in all of my decks around an average of 3 CMC and my decks seem to do fine with mana. My friendgroup is pretty forgiving with mulligans though so maybe I do need to add a few more 😑

[@LandoKalrizzian22]

I have 26!! Fight me

[@sero7850]

i play 34 in almost every deck i own and NEVER have a problem with it

[@Jwhiz24]

MDFCs have solved this problem.

[@animebrezel1272]

I'm playing 30 lands in like every deck i play but instead i play like every mana rock i can put in, most likely 15 of them Interesting thing is if my deck is green im going up in lands cuz my ramp decreases my lands in deck and landfall triggers are cool For cedh i play like 24 lands as i most likely play turbo

[@t_daddy_mtg]

My kozilek deck also has a low land count but runs every mana rock it can, since the whole point is to ramp into Koz in the first 3-4 turns of the game then refill my hand with his cast trigger

[@Customerbuilder]

Great vid! Also, I've never heard Gay Kings called K&T before. I guess it make sense.

[@t_daddy_mtg]

We also call they Key and Peele, or Lewis and Clark (because they find lands? lol). Gay Kings is new to me, I'll have to use that one next time :)

[@valeckseimu3132]

75-25 or 66-33...but I play low cmc

[@robyngwendolynshiloh5277]

As a kykar spell slinger deck, I will keep 25 lands in my deck 😤😤

[@robyngwendolynshiloh5277]

It's by far my strongest and most consistent deck

[@t_daddy_mtg]

Damn 25 lands! Is that running a lot of mana rocks and cantrips?

[@СырнаНе-Бака]

40 cards deck = 17 lands 60 cards deck = 20-22 lands 99 cards deck = 33-36 lands

[@siosilvar]

aggro player spotted it's 16-17 in 40 card, 24-26 in 60 card (with control as high as 28, aggro around 22, and burn down to 19-20), and 35-42 in 100 card. even if you have 8 signets you still want ~38 lands, statistically.

[@СырнаНе-Бака]

@@siosilvar I asked my friends. They thinks 30 lands+9 mana stones is optimal for commander deck./ And yes, you are right. I love Boros.

[@FiveFootFall]

Just run 40 and never look back

[@yuviaro3511]

Counterpoint: 70 lands in my Omo deck

[@t_daddy_mtg]

That sounds awesome, do you have a decklist?

[@yuviaro3511]

@@t_daddy_mtg archidekt decks/10689032 (previous comments got auto-deleet)

[@yuviaro3511]

@t_daddy_mtg I have posted the link before but it got deleet automatically every time 1 Abstergo Entertainment 1 Alchemist's Refuge 1 Argoth, Sanctum of Nature 1 Baldur's Gate 1 Basilisk Gate 1 Blast Zone 1 Boseiju, Who Endures 1 Bottomless Pool // Locker Room 1 Breeding Pool 1 Cloudpost 1 Command Tower 1 Consign to Memory 1 Crawling Barrens 1 Crop Rotation 1 Crucible of Worlds 1 Dark Depths 1 Dreamroot Cascade 1 Drown in Dreams 1 Dryad Arbor 1 Dust Bowl 1 Echoing Deeps 1 Elvish Reclaimer 1 Evacuation 1 Expedition Map 1 Exploration 1 Field of the Dead 1 Flusterstorm 1 Forest 1 Fountainport 1 Glacial Chasm 1 Glimmerpost 1 Gond Gate 1 Green Sun's Zenith 1 Hedge Maze 1 Hidden Grotto 1 Hinterland Harbor 1 Horizon of Progress 1 Incubation // Incongruity 1 Inkmoth Nexus 1 Inventors' Fair 1 Island 1 Kenrith's Transformation 1 Lair of the Hydra 1 Lazotep Quarry 1 Lilypad Village 1 Lonely Sandbar 1 Lumbering Falls 1 Lórien Revealed 1 Maze of Ith 1 Maze's End 1 Micromancer 1 Mirrex 1 Misty Rainforest 1 Mutavault 1 Nature's Claim 1 Oko, Thief of Crowns 1 Ominous Cemetery 1 Open the Way 1 Otawara, Soaring City 1 Overflowing Basin 1 Petrified Field 1 Planar Nexus 1 Pongify 1 Realms Uncharted 1 Scapeshift 1 Scute Swarm 1 Shifting Woodland 1 Simic Growth Chamber 1 Six 1 Snow-Covered Forest 1 Snow-Covered Island 1 Sol Ring 1 Soul-Guide Lantern 1 Step Through 1 Strip Mine 1 Sunken Citadel 1 Swan Song 1 Swarmyard 1 Sylvan Scrying 1 Talon Gates of Madara 1 Tectonic Edge 1 Thespian's Stage 1 Tranquil Thicket 1 Trenchpost 1 Trophy Mage 1 Tropical Island 1 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath 1 Urza's Cave 1 Urza's Mine 1 Urza's Power Plant 1 Urza's Saga 1 Urza's Tower 1 Utter Insignificance 1 Vesuva 1 Volatile Fault 1 Walk-In Closet // Forgotten Cellar 1 Wasteland 1 Yavimaya Coast 1 Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth

[@yuviaro3511]

@@t_daddy_mtg it gets deleted whatever I do, Reddit/Discord when?

[@bounceday]

90% of arguments about this :v you dont understand statistics

[@Zedariath]

I will flood if i don't play 17 or less lands

[@impendio]

26 +/- 2 is the correct answer, just play good decks lmao

[@siosilvar]

In 60 card, absolutely. In 100 card? Most of us aren't playing cEDH, so that's about 10 short, good luck with the mana screw.