How Marvel SNAP Became The Best Mobile Game of 2022 | Visionaries Podcast, Episode 33

After its public release in October, Second Dinner's Marvel SNAP has become one of the most beloved card games in recent history. Second Dinner co-founder and former Hearthstone Lead, Ben Brode joins us to talk about what it took to build ‪@thegameawards‬ Best Mobile Game 2022 winner.
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► Guest: Ben Brode - / bbrode
Gaming, new media, and influence-where do they all intersect? From former ESPN, award-winning journalist Jacob Wolf and Overcome comes Visionaries, a new twice-weekly podcast that interviews some of the most powerful people on the Internet. Hear from your favorite content creators, game developers, pro gamers, and others who shape the media we consume today.
#visionariespodcast #podcast #marvelsnap #mobilegames #gameawards

[@SuperDanielHUN]

22:03 The most insane thing in the interview is that the head of blizzard (Bobby Kotick) never met the figurehead of Hearthstone (Ben Brode), their most successful game at the time. I think this alone shows a lot what type of person he is.

[@innuendo8497]

Is it their most successful? I would assume that would be WOW. Nearly 20 years of subscriptions quickly adds up.

[@SuperDanielHUN]

@@innuendo8497 heartstone was pulling massive numbers in the early few years. Pc not so much, but on mobile it's a giant. I'm not saying it's earning more than wow over 20 years, but heartstone did earn more money annual than wow when whey were both active.

[@timlawrence7204]

This game is awesome, Ben Brode seems like an amazing human being, I hope this game continues to be a success. His passion for making a great game first, then hopefully people want to pay for it, is a great lesson for people wanting to start their own business.

[@2wyt160]

As a former hearthstone player, he was a fun developer to have.

[@NedInYaHead]

Ikr? He seems like the definition of happy-go-lucky 😂. His game design wisdom speaks for itself as well.

[@SinatoFilms]

I've never seen a man so passionate about a project. Ben Brode is a gem.

[@Detton30]

Now, I have my issues with original Hearthstone and Marvel Snap, but listening to Brode is just a treat - he sounds so enthusiastic, it's hard to think that he doesn't care or has ulterior motives. Thanks for doing this interview!

[@LeBearr]

Brode is so fun but I feel like the interviewer is killing the vibe

[@ikillwithyourtruthholdagai2000]

Ben brode is like this legend person that just lives in our reality

[@jass783]

yeah lol

[@casheycashey3614]

This was such an interesting interview from the perspective of someone whose first and only card game so far is snap, I never knew how much history was there

[@retLAWMAD]

Bro match his passion. How can u be so stoic facing probably the most enthusiastic man on the planet

[@koreandecepticon]

The interviewer needs to smile once in his life

[@SoulRealms0]

Faxs, need to show some emotion.

[@aseulgi]

The location system is absolutely fantastic! Annoying at times sure… but I love that they break up formulaic deck flow and force players to improv on the spot. Unlike most other card games where decks are played in a very specific way to the point where it turns into a game of who can get their combo out first. Great talking point w/ the location!

[@hagger4858]

i hate, subterranea

[@rishijagtap8593]

@@hagger4858 there are def locations are annoying but it forces you to adapt and makes each game unique since you don't really know what locations will be in play.

[@belakthrillby]

As a Marvel Snap player my eye twitched when you said Apocalypse gets 6 power every time he's destroyed lol great interview though!

[@JacobNWolf]

Lol my mistake. I realized like right after I said it, but nothing I could do at that point. I’m early into Pool 3 and running a Dracula/Apocalypse discard deck at the moment so I should know this all too well.

[@AlcaeusArbius]

Honestly, loved the interview! Ben Brode's personality is on another level, would definitely SNAP on that. Personally, my opinion, my recommendation, my thought (not that that it matters but because I can say it) please, interviewer, talk less of yourself and discuss the question and topic that you asked your guest. An example would be, talking about Ben's answers to the questions that you asked. Don't just follow up with another question, it seems impersonal. Discuss and probe what Ben was saying for his answer. This would create much for depth and for me, a single new viewer of this channel, would catch my attention.

[@greencookiegamer]

I would say that Ben Brode is an actual visionary and genius, he challenged so many norms that have been plaguing the card game genre and has created a masterpiece of a game. I was hoping that he would have made the decision (because I am pretty sure it's in his mind) to lean the monetization more heavily to collecting variants / icons / titles, instead of the actual game pieces (cards), let people get their cards faster and easier with no real money options and just go to the cosmetics for collection purposes and monetization. I actually like the collecting system that forces you to get new cards slowly and brew with them, instead of just net-decking and paying to get the deck you want (which then gets nerfed etc etc), but I was hoping there would be zero real money currency associated with this part, instead all the money could be coming in from cosmetics - that would have been his ultimate final breakthrough for changing the card game genre completely. I hope my admiration for him is evident, this is not a stab at the game but rather a suggestion and my thoughts on this specific matter that plagues all card games.

[@aseulgi]

Net decking isn’t going to be a problem as Snaps nature has enough variety and counter play to mitigate decks from being full proof. Not to mention locations being random and hot locations encouraging players to swap up cards constantly.

[@loopingmoon1444]

@@aseulgi all f2p people are hoping for that but it's also tough to give up your biggest source of revenue, being the whales and content creator. I think what they have rn is a very fair system especially compared to most mobile games.

[@nicholasschmidt1156]

Great interview. I hope my engagement helps your video grow, it was a good watch. Brode is a great designer. I'm almost finished with my game design degree and would love to work with Second Dinner.

[@STATiC-HD]

He knows the money will come if the game stays successful. They want people spend money because they want to and because they need to. Which is how it should be. Great interview and awesome job asking these questions. He does seemed focus on making a GREAT game more than anything and I respect that.

[@rishijagtap8593]

I think you meant not because you have to

[@ynkybomber]

Investing in Brode is the biggest no-brainer in history.

[@Balabela123]

I really appreciate his thinking process as a game creator, all he cares about is making a fun card game period

[@TrimutiusToo]

I really love lamentis-1 knowing all the cards I will draw on early turns gives me so much information tonwork with and do the best possible plan

[@JStack]

14:30 I really appreciate Brode having the time emphasis on games. Even if a competitive scene is viable, those matches can be draft or best of 5 to maintain default game staying short

[@ynkybomber]

An even deeper element is playing climbing decks and really snapping thoughtfully versus playing fun or low booster card decks and almost never snapping

[@rolfjt5526]

Awesome interview!

[@Kaisingsens]

appreciate the structure and hard hitting questions in this interview. really informative. also always great seeing ben! I really hope they'll adapt the progression model because after reaching level 1k progression is getting ridiculously slow and progression packs costing 120€ isn't it.

[@COMP05URE]

That was great. Good questions man.

[@Rathammergames]

45:28 great question and a difficult answer. Great stuff here!! Thanks

[@JacobNWolf]

Thank you! I thanked him off air after for answering it. As an investigative reporter, it’s my duty to ask about it. Glad he was willing to give such a thoughtful answer.

[@Zeekfox]

I gotta say something about the broken leg incident- If your Hearthstone Control Warrior mirror is taking 40 minutes, you have enough time to finish up what you're doing, wash your hands, and continue in a normal chair. While there's plenty of decision making to be done, your realistic actions per turn are very low playing a deck like that. Just take a turn where you do something quickly and simply burn the rope so you can reposition. The fact that a game of Hearthstone can take that long isn't what caused that injury. Also, I recently saw a Priest mirror go over an hour on the world championship broadcast. The casters were actually contemplating how close to the turn limit the game was when players were finding ways to avoid taking 8+ fatigue damage empty draws when they both started with 40 card decks. So that's still a thing. It is nice that Snap is quick though. While I do prefer longer games in general, Snap is nice when you're, say, an involved uncle of two young girls where you may not have 10+ minutes at a time.

[@Probasaur]

Knew i recognized that face. Then once you said blizzard and hearthstone it all came flooding back. Those first early beta days of hearthstone... was an interesting fun time. Will haveta check out the new marvel game. Would like to see an online card game where collecting is 1:1... after all the money spent on hearthstone i don't I'd ever come close to doing that again in terms of spending a ton of money for a completely digital asset that cannot be traded or converted in any way. Would be the next big TCG imo whoever is able to get it right and figure it out first. A game in which the online game portion helps your actual physical collection and vice versa.

[@srikika]

awesome podcast!

[@Balistick51]

Much deserved! Amazing game.

[@aseulgi]

The way Ben talks about monetization assures me that we’ll have nothing to worry about for the future of Snap. It’s clear that the team focuses more on making a fun game first and foremost. And what it has done is create an environment in which I’m happy to spend because I’m willing to support the game and get some fun fan service out of it. It’s just so refreshing to see bundles act as an agency to speed up the grind, but don’t necessarily ruin the experience for other players who choose not to spend.

[@manyue2003]

You are so wrong. The guy below you gets it. They make it so slow for f2p and even the Season Pass spender to get the cards that you need to whale up to get all the pool 3/4/5 cards that you want. Sure you can don't spent or even spent just on season pass, then you DO NOT get the shiny new cards (or you are lucky that u get 1 or 2). You NEED to SPENT a LOT on the bundles to get credits and tokens to GET new cards quickly. They come out with so many different ingame currency to ENSURE you are SLOW in getting cards if you continue to be f2p. Pool1 and 2 are pure good F2P experience BUT once you reach pool 3, they make it so HARD for you without spending money. So yes game is fun BUT it is FAR from f2p friendly. And yes mobile game NEEDS to make MONEY BUT I am sick of them trying to promote it as a F2P game. It is NOT. Gwent probably is.

[@aseulgi]

@@manyue2003 New content not being accessible is annoying, sure, but maybe try viewing it more as exclusive access until they eventually move those cards down into series 3 anyways, because that’s literally what it is. If I were you, I’d focus more on unlocking stuff you currently don’t have. If we’re going to encourage play to unlock, which we should, then I see nothing wrong with the state of progression. Ben even stated in the interview it’s about the journey of collecting, not just buying everything in one fell swoop. So no it’s definitely free to play though cope and whine all you want. All the cards are accessible. Just takes time and patience. I’m collection level 1258 and rather than whining about not having access to cards like Galactus, Knull, or Thanos. I’m focused more on unlocking series 3 cards cuz news flash. New and shiny don’t necessarily mean essential. I’ll admit it can be quite irritating opening up a collector’s reserve just to get something stupid like a title or avatar. But as when you open say a Pokémon booster pack and get shafted. Get over it and try again. Edit: and yeah the bundles are certainly overpriced. But you’re also not obligated to buy them. They’re simply there for fan service. And if you’re tired of playing against people who have access to all the “fancy” stuff. Then get over it because that’s how the gameplay flow works at this point in time even without the micro-transaction. As in case you forgot, everyone unlocks card in no particular order. One person might have Aero, the other might not. Is it advantageous? Not really, especially with collection level based match making. On a side note: you say Snap is riddled with in game currency to slow down progression. You mean the TWO in game currency between Gold and Credit? I’m not even going to mention Boosters cuz those are easy as hell to acquire. 😂

[@manyue2003]

@@aseulgi Do not want to sound rude, have they got you so confuse you totally forgot about collectors token. That was suppose to make things faster except I had more pool 4/5 offered to me since token shop started and so little pool 3 cards. How to collect pool 3 cards as you mentioned ? I finally did lock Wong and took me 1.5 weeks to save up enough to buy it. And ofcourse now everyone already knew about Wong playstyle and all are playing leecher. This is the problem with getting new cards months later, people already know how to counter it. You should trying playing Gwent and you will understand truly what F2P means. And by the way, my first CCG was SpellStone and that was a very P2W game and I did know better. It was 5 years ago and you are like me 5 years ago. Snap is definitely NOT a F2P friendly game, stop calling it that.

[@manyue2003]

@@aseulgi So it is definitely NOT just 2 ingame currency.

[@aseulgi]

@@manyue2003 stubborn it’s ok. It’s free to play. None of the micro transactions are advantageous. Again collection level based match making makes it so that you’ll be playing against people with equal resource at their disposal. Things are accessible and the irony of you complaining about Collector’s Token is hilarious as it contradicts how you were whining about slow progression. Meanwhile those tokens act as a way to target cards you want the most. (And you can actually earn those tokens through reserves! Crazy!) As for your shop being weak, that’s just luck. I’ve already purchased Torch, Captain Marvel, Beast, and Moon Knight. All series 3. And there’s no shot you’re complaining about meta gaming and counters in a freaking card game lmfao (Runeterra, Heartstone, Magic… etc.)

[@ChinmanPlayCOD]

I spend more money on this game every day simply to support them more! (And to speed up my account but that’s a bonus) I recommend it to everyone who loves card games!

[@VidZeen]

You are the reason that we are getting more paywalled bullshit. Thank you, whale.

[@araisikewai]

Suggestion for a new location: End game battleground: Works a bit similar to World ship or Galactus as in you only get 1 zone to fight in. Difference being it combines all 3 lanes into 1, so instead of 4 cards, there's now 12 cards fighting in one spot. Inspired by MCU Endgame where all characters are there on the battefield.

[@boxtupos7718]

As cool as that sounds that just makes Ongoing decks crazy. Cosmo will not only kill a lot of archetypes; He'll als protect the entire lane. So Onslaught+Iron Man+Warpath is just too crazy powerful

[@jameswrhymer]

@@boxtupos7718 You can say that about many locations. Lamentis-1 is heavily advantageous to destroy decks because you get a free 12 drop in Death, and now a super powered Knull with 65 power lol.

[@boxtupos7718]

@@jameswrhymer Yea, but Destroy decks were then countered by the likes of Blackbolt, Leech and Leadee. In here, Ongoing will simply reign supreme without much counterplay; As On Reveal wouldn't function, so what's stopping a Cosmo, Warpath, Iron Man, Onslaught.

[@NedInYaHead]

That would be good for Battleworld, a universe created out of pieces of Earth-616 (the Main Marvel Universe) and the Ultimates Universe (the early MCU was based on this), where Doctor Doom was intent on finding the strongest heroes in all of the destroyed universes, so he put them to an all-out fight for their survival.

[@VictorianGenetix]

@@boxtupos7718 ya but it wouldn't pop up often enough for an ongoing deck to be like a MUST use which is the whole point of the locations. Every deck type has some locations benefit them and every deck type has some that screw them over.

[@StaneMalovrh]

Snap is fun. I hope they don't blow it and make it too much p2w. So far only thing I really dislike in snap is how token stuff is at the moment. So few tokens and very hard to get them and cards cost way too much tokens. Lower cards cost or I don't know 10x more ways to get them by playing or doing missions.

[@thepilot7612]

I felt like the token shop was an INCREDIBLE improvement. I’m not sure how much more free they need to make something. Tokens are not the point of the game, but it’s a nice to have knowing you can build up to something.

[@lordalex695]

HE ACKNOWLEDGED MOVE DECKS YEAHHH

[@lexbraxman9270]

Great discussion topics and questions! Well done

[@carlosbonillaish]

Ben Brode was an amazing guest! I would have appreciated if the host reduced the number of questions related to their perceived faults of other games like Magic or Hearthstone. Marvel Snap is a phenomenal game, there is enough material to focus on those strengths instead of criticizing the competition.

[@kumanight]

Re: Monetization they need to rework bundle pricing. They're way too expensive even for whales. Love this game btw

[@koray1621]

They did a great job with this game

[@SamanthaDutchy]

so true

[@danielbaity8571]

Is there any updates to help relieve the Pool 2 conundrum. Players have multiple cards that I am yet to gain access too. Exactly how am I suppose to progress or am I just fodder and never move forward?

[@masterofskillz14]

Respectfully, you can progress in collections without ever winning a single match. Just play games and upgrade cards and you'll inevitably get stronger cards!

[@danielbaity8571]

@@masterofskillz14 thank you, that's a grind and I'm all in for that grind I have a lot of fun with the game thanks for the insight

[@supreme1572]

Just wait until you're in pool 3 it gets even worse.

[@sushi521]

@@danielbaity8571 Jeff Hoogland has a good pool 2 list that I've used to good success as well. It also helps you learn the snap mechanic - when to snap/retreat etc. His channel is a good resource for learning the game as you're first starting out and he has a lot of fun deck lists to try as you start to get pool 3 cards :)

[@danielbaity8571]

@@sushi521 thanks I'll check that out. Good luck on your progression!

[@Equizition21]

Because the host of the award show plays it to It's just getting started. 😆

[@kolz4ever1980]

Just downloaded the game today for my steam deck and played a good while of it. I am enjoying it a lot and will keep it which is surprise since I am not that much in to card games. Probably because you always gotta buy the packs to have a chance. I saw how f2p friendly this was and the animations looked really cool so I gave it a chance. Also the fact it's simple enough to play and the quick games do make it fun too which makes it a perfect idea for a mobile game because that's how I always see them. A quick time killer when you're waiting on a bus or doctor appointment and so on.

[@bigbellyobie6204]

I'm with you there, I also am having alot of fun as someone who really likes card games it's got a great balance of depth and simplicity, locations making every game different , I love getting my collection upgraded!

[@brycesipes]

They basically repackaged Nexus events as pool 4 and 5 with collector's tokens and ridiculously priced bundles. Does he feel great about that and 100 dollar bundles?

[@VidZeen]

Ripoff, never buy those bundles and signal them to gtfo :D

[@jibxjib]

dude ben brode is the ultimate extrovert

[@rotobaitorx8854]

They need to add more variants in the season pass and ways to get credits

[@6ftmouse349]

As more cards come out I think they’ll give out more free credits. Like he said they’re only 150 cards They just added more variants to the season pass.

[@VidZeen]

@@6ftmouse349 I have like 400 hours in game, 3 season passes bought and do not have all 150 cards yet.

[@ErianF]

HS died the moment Ben leaved. I was super hype when he announced Snap and have no regrets, game is super cool. I love Ben 🤙🏼

[@_Libosido]

I was sceptical about Marvel Snap until I played it. As mobile game, its great, pc client is kinda disappointment, because you have wide screen and you are using 25% of his size. Gameplay is nice, progresssion is fair but for me, I m missing "unranked" mode, special PvE mode or mode with card restriction. I m between silver and gold, ppl havent a lot of cards and they are playing improvised decks from cards what they have but I can imagine, on higher ranks you are forced to play meta and play agianst meta decks only, what seems to be in long term as "fun" killer.

[@TheForhekset]

I enjoy playing marvel snap, but I hope the game becomes less grindy. The card aquisition system is awful, you slowy get credits from dailies that allow you to upgrade which levels up the collection which allows you to open lootboxes which may have cards. And this system is awful, its slow grindy, random and the newest cards are so rare they are unobtainable. And then the prices of the bundles to improve the pace of the grind are outrageosly expsensive.

[@dreimann]

Caffeine is a hell of a drug!

[@storm-ed9ht]

This intro💀

[@ClandestineMerkaba]

So Ben Brode's friend broke his leg while shitting, and now we have Snap? Trip.

[@ClandestineMerkaba]

Or well, "Fall"- I guess.

[@theducvu5196]

He Snapped his leg

[@Rathammergames]

Funny how the avengers are the least powerful cards in pool 3 onwards.

[@andresalazar905]

Thor is still extremely good though

[@FABIOZITO11]

Good interview but feels awkward when you ask a question, Ben Brode answers and you immediately throw another question without adding anything. I feel like he answers with something interesting and you kill the vibe by asking another question right away, almost feels like you're discarding what he said. I know that you aren't, but would be nice if you engaged a little more, other than that it was great.

[@ManjMau]

Not hard... Take an already successful game mechanic from another game (Smash-Up!) and simplify it (Limited turns and only 2 player), then slap on a popular IP to it (The largest movie franchise in the world) and voila.

[@manwithnoname9580]

My only complaints on the game are for how you unlock cards. It kind of kills any chance of a competitive esport for the game unless they unlock everything for those events. That still doesn't fix everything but as a for fun card game? It's decent.

[@icymoe1024]

I mean this in the best way possible..... SNAP is the perfect toilet game!

[@markt8475]

Let me explain how it won "best mobile game". They astroturfed the thing with a late year release and internet campaign. This is the most rigged mobile game I've ever played and I've been playing from the star of mobile gaming.

[@MattHorton]

Seeing this and then seeing the ridiculously priced bundles in SNAP feels like Ben is disconnected from reality

[@massfarmer818]

Damn, interviewer has ZERO charisma. Poor Brode had to pull 100% of the weight and I still couldn't finish.

[@xandercobrand2680]

Thank you!! I’m glad someone else said it but like the blank stare while Ben is answering questions, the way he asks the questions, mans didnt even laugh fr🤦🏽‍♂️

[@edrueter9]

I love Ben Brode, truly, but this game is for the ADHD crowd of the world who have to have a game done in one minute. And yes, although there is some strategy, and deck building is cool; the way the locations play out, there is just too much RNG for me in such a short game and often sabotages your whole deck. You know almost immediately whether you won or lost and concede or SNAP quickly. But it is super polished, a great use of the Marvel Universe, and it was made with love. This game simply wasnt for me. Great interview here. I miss Ben talking Hearthstone....

[@bumbelul]

hear me out! get the game to its peak popularity, then do what pokemon does... release physical cards... it would be wild to play marvel snap irl.... i work in a library and board games are exploading... i would fucking love to get my friends involved with this game...😁😁😁

[@ankrax]

the secret weapon was disney money.

[@anth850]

Nice talk but can i have 2000 tokens please? Ive only got 900 in all my grind, pleeeease, i got lucky and pinned thanos but i feel like its going to be forever until i can unlock him

[@craeeg]

lmao

[@VidZeen]

48:35 just don't go full diversity hire mode because that already destroyed a lot of companies, not just in gaming.

[@ynkybomber]

Please get us tokens a bit faster. I don't need 15 avatars and quotes

[@TyranVz]

Wow. Such a one sided interview. Listen to what Brode is saying. Interact with him. Don’t just tick question boxes

[@ynkybomber]

This interview was awful and it was not Ben's fault.

[@duiaaaa]

what exactly was awful about it?

[@gabrielgoncalves2763]

@@duiaaaa interviewer has the charisma of a wood plank

[@jorgepoleo9284]

why do you unfat yourself in your art???'

[@junitsu00]

Without the location aspect of the game, it would be MARVEL FLOP

[@calebfaltinowski7473]

Over hyped. Plus my account started over and their IT department couldn't help.

[@kolz4ever1980]

And?..

[@pdj2995]

Ben did a great job on this game no doubt, but the story about his friend on the toilet seems a bit iffy… I mean, we get it, you made a great game, but you don’t need to make up a tragic superhero backstory to it like the rest of the marvel characters… the odds of someone falling asleep on the toilet and breaking his leg is 1 in a billion, add the fact it happened because he so happened to play control warrior mirror match on hearthstone, and then on top of that add the fact his friend was the game director of hearthstone… only mathematically inept individuals will believe this story, and it’s kinda sad to see how low he thinks of his viewers…

[@costinhamaster1409]

Pass is too expensive... long term the game will die because no one is buying the pass its 10.99 euros each month. Usually when you buy a pass it last months 2-4.. I am not hating just telling what I think will happen in the future

[@fynrirbeskar2763]

Nice game but garbage matchmaking where low collection level players get matched with high collection level players after CL 600 👎

[@ronsan89]

This game is trash rage inducing people cheating

[@Bonesai31]

Awesome interview!!