How Much Does Surface Finish Change Over Time?

[@hotrodray6802]

🔔😎 25 yrs ago that was my job at the race engine shop. After much coercing I received the latest tech hone stones and nylon bottle brush. Results were +11 hp on our first try on spec 355 SBC circle track engine. This averaged about that on every subsequent engine. I didnt have those great micro gauges, just old tech. Really enjoyed this video information. THANK YOU 🔔😎

[@FishinFool70]

I settled on the nylon plateau hone for final pass way back myself. Never see that scrubbing of black residue on assembly he shows here. That trash does do some damage.

[@mosesadk454]

I've learned a lot watching this channel. I just recently brought a motorcycle cylinder to an automotive machine shop. I now know enough to ask the the right questions. They were somewhat amazed that i asked their honing procedures.

[@andydelassus2734]

“Rough up the surface so the rings have something to seat against” is the most info I’ve heard regarding this subject up until this. Excellent info

[@psychoholicslag4801]

The automotive school we wanted to go to but it didn't exist, Total Seal and Lake Speed.

[@TotalSeal]

Thanks!

[@100pyatt]

Agreed !!!

[@isalmankhan1]

I'm not a machinist, but your lectures are very interesting, it sparks the desire of learning this trade😍

[@TotalSeal]

Wow, thanks

[@sidneysanders5726]

Tribology is very fun to learn and understand. Lake Speed Jr helped me with these videos. Also check out driven racing oil, the motor oil geek for more fun technical stuff

[@myrx2]

So many back yard "mechanics" use the old honing tool and drill thinking that honing is only to remove imperfections in the bore. Half the time they end up making the bore dead smooth without understanding the true concept of honing. One job i always leave for a good workshop to do with the right machines.

[@briankalagher6687]

I used to only think about engine oil between the crank and bearings or timing chains and cam lobes and I always missed the oil that lives in the cross hatching. Just thinking about the heat, pressures, and hostile environment that that tiny film of oil is exposed to. And that it's constantly exposed to gasoline. Crazy!

[@jackk21]

I’m in the same boat. Engines will always be fascinating to me. I mean how can a 60 pound hunk of metal with other metal pieces bolted on spin more than 100 times per second. And that’s only a small block. I can’t even begin to wrap my head around that

[@philipparana9225]

Mire like 400 to 700 lbs.​@@jackk21

[@candyman1967]

What about Nikasil walls

[@Lagrange1186]

So if the rings are smoothing up the cylinder walls… how to the ring surfaces look? And would there be any benefit to using another set of rings once the cylinder walls have the perfect finish?

[@TotalSeal]

The hard coating on the rings protect them from being damaged during this process.

[@thatman4752]

My guess is the new rings would find new grooves leaving the ones from the old rings open and causing more oil to slip past. Assumjng the rings are not 100% perfect. I would assume a cylinder hone would be in order for every set of rings. Makes sense in my mind 😅

[@TheGT350Garage]

Great information. I’ve been using Goodson plateau hone brushes for nearly 20 years now and have found that the resulting smoother upper surface finish reduces the break in period substantially and improves ring seal to the extent that leak down becomes negligible almost immediately after startup. It would be interesting to see the surface detail before and after the plateau hone brush compared to your results here.

[@georgedreisch2662]

Now y’all got me wondering if a burnishing - lapping process, as a extension of the bore preparation, would result in further gains of quality of ring seal and longevity?

[@JohnDay-h1y]

The shop I worked at 25 years ago used the Sunnen soft hone brushes which produced a cylinder finish vert similar to the cylinder finish produced after a short break in. There fore a break in was not needed and you could go directly to the race track or dyno with full load pulls.

[@croomsracingengines9265]

What does this quality of machining cost

[@zzzoo2]

That block looks like it was coated with Glyptal, but I’m not sure if it comes in blue. The ones I’ve seen were always red or brownish red.

[@damicoengineslimited8861]

Thanks Lake, another great, informative video with actual fact. I think I speak for all serious engine builders when I say, we really appreciate all the time and effort you are putting into getting this information out tu us.

[@TotalSeal]

Thank you!

[@CraigOverend]

I remember reading a Mercedes paper from the 80s that showed only the initial cycles caused wear, and it only took like 100 cycles for plastic deformation of those peaks to occur for the rings to fully bed.

[@JamesCat-qx6sb]

Being retired, I'm one of those home shop guys albeit well equipped. I recently refreshed a 5.2 Magnum for moly rings.I used a 3 stone hone (320) with marvel mystery oil and finished with 400 grit sandpaper wrapped around the hone😅..praying my rings are still moly...never smoked on start up and has 150 psi of cranky compression. I even had a larger gap...020 and bent one oil spring tang in to slightly reduce tension..1 year in and no oil usage yet😊

[@CedroCron]

Very interesting... Would also like to know more about the 30 minute break in process you used. Thanks!

[@kendavis1198]

That's Very Interesting. Cool Video Lake...

[@TotalSeal]

Thanks!

[@FiteTheGoodFight]

I have an older 4stone (2 stone/2 wiper) Sunnen hone, I wonder if those diamond stones needed for this process, are available for it?

[@TotalSeal]

Forget EVERYTHING You Think You Know About HONING! These NEW Abrasives TRANSFORMED Our OLD Hone... kzbin.info/www/bejne/gmrYiXmbdtOmpbM

[@nesmio7378]

Certain people don't run in engines at all and send them flat out freshly rebuilt after just idling it for a couple minutes to make sure it's working, some people do extremely short run ins but heavily load the engine etc. Whilst I don't believe in either of these methods and prefer a gradually load increasing and longer run in period like you recommend the people that do the opposite don't seem to get punished for it much or at all. You hear the countless and typical stories of "I've been doing it this way since the start of humanity and never had any issues", hard to argue with that sometimes. What gives? What are the risks and drawbacks of running the engine at full tilt right away or doing an extremely short run in only? Obviously for racing series sometimes you have no choice since you want the least mileage and hours on the engine but I'm talking generally speaking and mostly for street usage. What can happen? Burnt rings? Too much wear too quickly that then gets into the oil and circulates? Bore score? Glazing? Longevity - if so why? Do you notice it right away or only many years down the line? Obviously you are going to be running the engine hard "non run-in" so that'll cause it's own issues but what happens afterwards once the hard run in has worn it in very quickly? What are the lasting damages / problems caused by that?

[@TT64NOVASS]

I love the videos done at PME ! 😊

[@bradhuffjr777]

Has anyone else heard of final honing with a brown paper grocery bag and "salad dressing?"

[@Trev-fl1oe]

Awesome vid lake .lake did you measure the piston roundness before and after to see if had wear on major thrust side being piston breaking in bore or is the bore wall and piston break each other in interesting thankyou.peace

[@jackbrown7846]

Can you please make video about Archoil friction modifier R 9100 .

[@____MC____]

If cylinder walls and valve guides need a little valleys for holding oil, what about rod and main journals? Im sure this was answered 80 years ago. Just another random question. Even if the valleys were less than 20 microns, would that ruin the boundary layer?

[@TotalSeal]

Journal bearings are different. The eccentricity of bearing along with rotational speed is what creates the film.

[@NITROUSnBIASPLYS]

Would you bring able to do a video on piston rings and what type of rings are best for nitrous, boost, na. Also touch upon cylinder wall materials such a plasma arc wire vs a sleeved aluminum block and cast iron block 👍🏻

[@TotalSeal]

Great suggestion!

[@kathysarmcandy1992]

And on to my frustration that there aren't any reputable shops near me that will do what you ask to the standards you want. Like this. They always "know more" you you do. Even if, like me you are a trade pro. I get a block back that looks like it was honed with a brick.

[@TotalSeal]

I’m sorry to hear that.

[@FiteTheGoodFight]

They don't care, because as far as they are concerned, the way they've been doing it all this time, is time tested "good enough". Unless you're gonna pay for the diamond stones yourself, you're probably not gonna get anywhere with the regular machine shops.

[@doughelmle6575]

Its interesting that after rotating the engine by hand that the material from the rings changed the RPK in knocking down the peaks but the RVK didn"t change. where did the ring face material go? wouldn"t the material fill the valley alittle? Is that a moly faced ring? Wasn"t it common practice years ago to "plateau hone" a cylinder ? love your channel. I"ve learned just enough to be dangerous.

[@Onewheelordeal]

Blows my mind how manly channels just start rattling off profilometer numbers without throwing their viewers your 90 sec explanation of the tool

[@altontsinnijinnie5990]

Maybe cuz He has spray explained the device/ both devices, in one of his prior videos.

[@kevin_6217]

Manly?

[@thatman4752]

Do this using water for oil with motorkote added in the same ratio that project farm used when his test showed no visible damage from running this way.

[@JC-gw3yo]

Lake does his usual wisdom

[@scottymoondogjakubin4766]

I was taught to seat the rings you accelerate and deaccelerate in first gear 30 to 40 x underload !

[@supertruckertom]

Can an oil sample go stale? I oulled a sample a month ago and still haven't mailed it in. The dealership mechanics were impressed with the tool a d process. First change at 1700 miles

[@____MC____]

How much clearance change is there from hone to break in?

[@TotalSeal]

This change is measured in .0001

[@markhickox1379]

Was any assembly lubrication product used on on the cylinder walls during assembly?

[@TotalSeal]

Yes. WD-40 on the cylinders and Total Seal assembly lube on the pistons and rings.

[@TomKnoblauch-de4em]

Lake, what grit stone did you use to get the 67 RVK?

[@DavidStrickland-np1gm]

m I removing some of the rpk by doing that? and is that a good thing on a bore that only has whatever surface the machine shop achieved with an old school sunnen hone? probably only a single grit hone no less.

[@bcbloc02]

So after 50k miles how does it look?

[@coldhillgarage]

Very interesting , as always👍 i wonder if you want, do a video about the best way to DIY hone your engine. To get it as right as possible. Method , tools, stone grid etc. Please Like this comment if more want to see this. Cheers

[@andydelassus2734]

Please test Stiction Eliminator!

[@cobrajeff96]

Would that Profilometer's resolution be considered at the microscopic level or not quite?

[@TotalSeal]

Yes, it is measuring in micro inches.

[@MarcusFreeman-n7p]

Why do you need 2 cameras ???

[@muttpigstye192]

Lake, you REALLY need to can the "side view" shot of your mug. Looks like yer talking to a wall

[@TotalSeal]

Noted!

[@RustyorBroken]

Your video cut off at the.....