How much friction does rope access gear generate

[@TheRopeAccessChannel]

Were the results what you expected? Did you see any surprises

[@KristjanKalda89]

Haven't used the Taz Lov2, but I think it's similar to Petzl Grillion, which seem to have significantly less friction compared to rig/ID. Good job on the tests, looking forward to next ones!

[@TheRopeAccessChannel]

@@KristjanKalda89 Good one! I could have tested that as well! But to be honest, I think the Grigri/Grillon will be in between the Taz and I'd. There is a lot more surface area where the rope rubs compared to the TAZ. Now if I would know the Capstan equation, I could calculate it for you, but that stuff just hurts my head 😉. I also have Safeguard by Mad Rock I could have tested... Well, that will have to be in a part two for later...

[@paulnosek714]

Great video man, gets the brain thinking hahaha keep it up we appreciate it!

[@DerAndroid478]

I have the ID, the Sirius and the LOV3 so i was actually expecting the LOV2/3 to be lower but i didnt expect that much of a difference. i think an interresting follow up would be Pulleys with a Prussik and maybe other friction hitches for capture.

[@TheRopeAccessChannel]

@@DerAndroid478 I know right, complete surprise to me too. A prussik should add minimal friction if any compared to any inefficiencies in pulleys. Nevertheless something I'll add is a follow up video. Just to be sure.

[@HowNOT2]

I watched the whole thing. The biggest shock to me was micro and protraxion being very similar. And it’s crazy how the progress captures have so much friction. This could be a fun video to build off to see what I get and then change just one variable here and there. Good video

[@TheRopeAccessChannel]

That micro traxion is definitely a good one! I knew it was good but I had not thought they would be this close. I've been thinking about splaying with some variables. Like one device different ropes (10-11 mm) in different states (wet,oil,fuzzy, new), or same rope, same model device, just different devices. Like get 10 I'd's and see the difference in that. We can work of that👍🏻👍🏻

[@andrewhunter6536]

I wonder how awful an atc guide would be. I guess any z drag with that in it is already basically only a 2:1 without calculating the other losses

[@alporridge5228]

As a relative newbie I hear all the time that the Clutch is so much more efficient than the Maestro…maybe not after all. Thanks for the content

[@TheRopeAccessChannel]

Just keep in mind that this was just on test with on model each. If we take useability into account, the Clutch is better I think. So many more tests and variables to do haha. Maybe 10.5 mm will lessen de efficiency gap.. who knows

[@YannCamusBlissClimbing]

Good video! Happy to see the LOV2 perform as it is the only big rappel / position / fall arrest device I own. I noted all the loads I can read in your video and did my own calculations a bit differently. But I am +/- 1% of your calculated efficiency. All good! Keep them coming 🙂

[@TheRopeAccessChannel]

Thanks Yann 😃. I'm not trying to be very precise. So I round up or down quite a bit. At least we get an indication of what is going on👍🏻👍🏻

[@robertasjuscius1092]

As irtata L3 myself for 13 years I've been surprised by the test results. My go-to is Petzl pulley all the time :))). Thank you for great effort in explaining this in detail. We had many debates (during tea times) about these topics but no one had solid proof. Until now! Thank you for your great work and effort. And I can relate posting anything on internet about rigging triggers shit out of some people. Specialy on linkedinn. I can fee you. Have a good and creative upcoming season.

[@TheRopeAccessChannel]

Thanks man, I appreciate that 🙏😀🙏😀

[@Bendersnatchling]

Love the fact you take your time! Not everything can be explained well in 15s.

[@TheRopeAccessChannel]

Thanks, that is exactly the idea. Short form content is for other platforms. KZbin is for more thorough explored topics

[@jetseverschuren]

Haha, ik was letterlijk een week geleden aan het overwegen om een vergelijkbare test te doen. Goed om te zien dat je in beweging test, super lekker bezig!

[@TheRopeAccessChannel]

Thanks Jetse🙏🏼👊🏻

[@aerialrescuesolutions3277]

I did watch the whole video, I always watch your videos to the end. Jim

[@TheRopeAccessChannel]

Thank you Jim😃

[@rubencastro676]

Hello Alex 😁 My reaction was the same as yours , a thought that the clutch and the maestro was more efficient! I already try out the Taz lov2 and it's a strange device for people that are use to rig /ID but with a lot of advantages and certifications , the results was shocking to me , it's more efficient then others descenders ! Keep the good work and thank you for sharing this type of knowledge, it's like you said on the video , this tests helps is to understand the pros and cons of the devices and where to put then on the system ! The video about the z rig , it was very eye opening and you get me doing exercises on MA systems and compare the theoretical with the reality! Thank you Alex ☺️ 💪

[@TheRopeAccessChannel]

Aweome!! Thank you Ruben🙏🏼🙏🏼. If that is what is keeping you busy, in the next few weeks I will be releasing 4 more video's on friction and MA systems. Enough to keep you busy and thinking for a while haha👊🏻👊🏻

[@josephr.3558]

Would love to see a zigzag on this test!

[@TheRopeAccessChannel]

I think it will be about the same as an inefficient pulley. Ill put it on the list for the next time👍🏼👍🏼

[@33samogo]

It is not surface area that make difference in "friction", it is a Bending Angle (BA). With carabiner in your case, the rope BA is let's say 135 degree, with descender BA is ~45 more on the exit of device, so ~180 degree in total in your case (factor of 1,3, but the "friction" increase exponentially) . Another factor to consider is Rope Banding Radius (RBR) and Rope Diameter (RD). In the case of carabiner the rope RBR is 10mm on 10mm rope, so the the "friction" will be higher than in case of descender, where the RBR is ~25mm on the cam and ~15mm on exit of device. If the RD increase the internal rope friction increase to, that is why is so nice hauling with thinner ropers. Another thing that increase the "friction" is V shape groove in the cam of descender, this little engineering trick increase the force contact between rope and cam so the system "friction" increase. And at last, the friction is not constant in all conditions, so instead of "friction" is better to say holding and braking force. As you can see there is too many variables in physics of this devices, that is why is so difficult to make one that works perfect and impossible to make one that will satisfy all your needs. My five stars out of five for Micro Traction and for your presentation 👌

[@TheRopeAccessChannel]

Thanks, If I read that it looks like you know what you are talking about. you understand the physics. And for what I want to showcase, I like to keep it as simple as possible. Things like kN and kg I use both and if something slides across a surface and makes lifting harder or lowering easier I (and many others) just call it friction. In a practical world it doesnt really matter why that is for 99% of the techs out there. I'll stick with friction ;-).

[@33samogo]

@@TheRopeAccessChannel No problem, just know that Bending Angle is a key to understand the "friction" in practical world 😉

[@paulosaraiva1002]

lol!so sorry for your mic...thank you for your work!

[@TheRopeAccessChannel]

Thank you too!

[@user-zg5wt4xd4x]

This is very cool video! I dreamed of seeing something similar. This is not the first time I’ve seen your great videos. Thank you from Ukraine

[@TheRopeAccessChannel]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@GionetTodesco77]

Excellent video, thanks for sharing…

[@TheRopeAccessChannel]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@basigalvez8926]

Thank you very much Alex for your dedication, this video is very interesting. Good job mate!!!!👏👏👏👏👏

[@TheRopeAccessChannel]

My pleasure!😃😃

[@thugnasty333]

Incredible episode. Keep the nerd videos coming!! Thank you

[@TheRopeAccessChannel]

More to come!👍🏻👍🏻

[@evertongatto8944]

Excellent job!

[@TheRopeAccessChannel]

Thank you very much!

[@danielsantiagojaramillogar2533]

Awesome video. Thank you.

[@TheRopeAccessChannel]

My pleasure Daniel 👍🏻

[@spiercevaughn]

Really cool test! loved seeing the differences through the gear. Great set up.

[@TheRopeAccessChannel]

Glad you liked it! Thanks Pierce🙏🏼

[@bobert12390]

I would bet a huge video on the sklotec sirrus using like the I'd video would be a big hit I'm having trouble finding video on real testing and reviews of the sklotec sirrus

[@TheRopeAccessChannel]

Agreed! I am working on a big Spark video now. It will take some time though. A first impressions video is coming this week!!

[@levig-man4103]

Excellent content 👌

[@TheRopeAccessChannel]

Thank you 🙌

[@satriatv165]

Good jobs sir

[@TheRopeAccessChannel]

Thank you! Part 2 is coming today :-)

[@matthewmurr8199]

Anyone know how many friction point the CMC clutch has ?

[@jennywhite1425]

G'day Alex - excellent video once again! I wasn't surprised by the results but it is really good to see you demonstrate them all. I own 2 Clutches for the very reason you have shown: quite low friction and can be used as a personal descender on my harness. Also, the discount code on the LS3 doesn't work on their website - it says 'code doesn't exist' - just thought you might like to know. Keep up the great work with your videos 👍

[@TheRopeAccessChannel]

Hi Jenny, thank you😃 That fact, that you can use the clutch as a descender and that is smaller, is why I would also take a Clutch over a Maestro. And thank you for letting me know about the code. That was my bad. I posted the old code, it changes every month. TRAC-61c-Tg3 is the new code. for a few more days until it changes in december again.

[@aerialrescuesolutions3277]

My Taz Lov 3 says 9.5 max rope diameter. I only use it for going straight up a rope, that is why I bought it. A larger diameter rope really drags through it.

[@TheRopeAccessChannel]

From the top of my head that 9.5 is for EN892 rope and under the EN 15151 standard. I think it goes from 9.5 till 10.5, The LOV3 is good for 10-11 mm EN1891A as well

[@TheRopeAccessChannel]

Just went and looked it up. These are the numbers from the site: EN 12841 type A, B and C on ropes EN 1891 A from Ø 10 to 11 mm, EN 15151-1 on EN 1891 A ropes from Ø 10 to 11 mm and on EN 892 ropes from Ø 9.5 to 10.5 mm EN 341 type 2 class C on Cousin 1425 EN 1891 rope Ø 10.5 mm EN 358 (LOV3+) with its LOVROPE lanyard it fulfills the relevant requirements of EN 353.2 with the exception of automatic descent tracking. It can handle a lot of different standards and rope diameters ;-)

[@aerialrescuesolutions3277]

@@TheRopeAccessChannel I am just telling you what is written right on mine. I have tried 11mm rope in it and it is really hard to get the rope to slide. 10.5 works perfectly. Thank you for another great video. Jim

[@TheRopeAccessChannel]

Gotcha, do you have something like a sample model? To my knowledge the 2 and 3 had all the standards and thicknesses stamped on it. Or maybe in North America they don't? Or maybe I should say outside of the EU... I'm not sure I think they have to right? put all the relevant standards on the devices?

[@aerialrescuesolutions3277]

@@TheRopeAccessChannel I tried to send you an email, what is the best way to send a photo? Jim

[@GiannisPrimbo]

petzl L1D ? im really curious about the efficiency of the pulley

[@TheRopeAccessChannel]

If you send it over I will test it😜😜😜. Kidding.. I wish I could, and I do not have one. According to the specs is should be similar to the micro traxion.

[@gustavoperez9289]

You started by connecting the pulleys to a fixed metal point... and then you switched to a textile point. Do you think that the results are not so precise due to this change? Or maybe it doesn't affect much.

[@TheRopeAccessChannel]

I dont think it matters. It was only the two carabiners that were clipped directly and that 2x the friction was already a known. Once it is loaded and moving it was all consistent. I mean the winch doesnt need to pull harder or softer because it is in a sling. that just stretches a bit first untill fully loaded

[@FalenAnjel2]

The diamiter of the sheave seems small for the red pully, normally to have a better effectiveness the sheave should be 8x the rope diameter used. 08:12 Well you just mentioned what I was saying after a few more mins of watching. XD

[@TheRopeAccessChannel]

Haha thanks🙏🏼🙏🏼😃👊🏻

[@MrAclaudel]

Bottom line: the Maestro is best for rescues. Right?

[@TheRopeAccessChannel]

It depends...... (always the answer) If you are interested in the most efficient progress capture/descent control device, then yes. But as a functioning multi purpose unit, then I think the Clutch is better, more versatile. Ability to load the rope when connected, can be used as a descender, smaller footprint and I think it is lighter. The difference between te two is small and because they are usually at the end of a 5:1 or 3:1 that difference is smaller again. But for 1:1 efficiency, the Maestro is more efficient..

[@xxstreme]

hello.please add gri2 plus

[@TheRopeAccessChannel]

That should be really close to the old grigri. I’ll make sure to put in the next batch of testing 👍🏼

[@alirice2647]

Great video, keep them coming! Just discovered your channel and the videos on calculating MA have been very informative for me. Surprising to see how efficient the TAZ LOV 2 was. You can make it more efficient by rigging it inline with a DMM revolver rig like in this linked video: kzbin.infooActlNvi-L8 I know it wouldn't be a fair test in this case, but it's a cool trick to know!

[@TheRopeAccessChannel]

Great idea👍🏼. Thanks for sharing