How Playing Magic Turns You Into A Game Designer

[@Blairrows]

If you want to get a taste for game design, try putting a cube together. It's a great design exercise.

[@Wolan.]

Magic is essentially a game engine like Unreal engine. You can make it play Commander, draft, Archenemy, cluedo or anything you can come up with. So many game pieces give you a lot of options. Heck you can even make a computer with magic pieces and it game rules (look it up it's a nice video). And I agree with you that it's greatest strength is iteration for years.

[@Cheerwine091]

If all mechanics in all games lead back to magic, and every mechanic in magic is just kicker… That means that every mechanic in every game ever is actually just kicker.

[@fakenamedontuse9642]

Huh, I mean, 'extra effect for extra resource,' is kinda every mechanic yeah

[@louieluigi3914]

Threshold, flashback, domain, metalcraft?

[@Cheerwine091]

@@louieluigi3914 Threshold: It’s like kicker, but instead of the extra effect being a cost, it’s a condition met, and it applies to permanents rather than spells Flashback: It’s like kicker, but the effect is always casting the spell and you do it from the graveyard Domain: it’s like kicker, but (see threshold), except it’s escalating based on the number of pieces that fulfill the condition Metalcraft: It’s like kicker, but see threshold. (If you can’t tell, the ‘everything is kicker’ is not serious. It’s similar to “every pokemon move is actually just dig”, where you find logical stretches to validate the claim)

[@Robert-vk7je]

@@Cheerwine091 Words are just semantics.

[@crtchicanery9605]

That bit right at the beginning about designing a deck also being a kind of game design, crafting an experience for your opponent, reminded me of this bit from From Masher to Master by Patrick Miller that I think about a lot: "Moreover, the process of playing a fighting game against another person can essentially be considered “game design, in reverse”. (...) Perhaps it’s not quite surprising why established fighting game veterans seem to be breaking into the industry; all they’d have to do in the office is, well, the opposite of what they do in the arcade."

[@danthewafflelord3059]

Absolutely dude! I played MTG in like, middle to early high school, played Street Fighter a shitton for the rest of high school and college. Now that I graduated and came back to MTG, I both see and play the game completely differently

[@jordantaylor4390]

The other day I was teaching a friend how to play magic and he was amazed how every mechanic goes back to magic

[@danielzamboni3630]

Talking about magic and dnd. One time me and my friends tried 3 vs 3 dnd pvp and we had kinda the same problems as commander games, people too powerful compared to the others that got targeted then died then complained because they were not playing the game half the time or they didn't die and dominated the game. Is like using a flexible system to do something that is possible but clearly not initially designed to do it is hard or something.

[@Ninjamanhammer]

DnD PvP also suffers from PCs being much more offence focused than most monsters so they're going to kill each other really fast.

[@florianfiedler9534]

A huge part of the experienced design comes from the vast amount of different limited environments in MtG, and each of them makes the players experience other game mechanics, themes, and strategies that come with that. You could use the mechanics of each MtG block/limited world and create a game from them, even without thinking about magic's core mechanics. That is, in my opinion, what makes MtG so fundamental for game designers. Nice pod btw. Just learned about it by KZbin's infamous algorithm :)

[@Toot_tube]

I've gone through all these thoughts myself too, it's very funny to listen to. I have played mtg since 4th edition on and off. I played to a high competitive level (got to the Pro Tour one time) but also have played a lot of casual magic including commander. When I came to wrap my head around commander I realised it really is about making a fun experience for as many people at the table as possible. Mtg is actually very bad at doing this in comparison to many other board games, but if you try hard at it with the right people it's possible. I've also ingested so much stuff about game design over the years and find it very cool/interesting. But most of the card games I've enjoyed are very much geared towards the tryhards. Which means they are doomed to die commertially because casual players will not have fun playing them (think Artifact/Netrunner/Gwent/LoR etc). Anyway thats a lot of text, thanks for the video!

[@Big_Dai]

I mean, it makes sense! Giving power to the players and them being able to more consistently triumph opponents is what motivates them into pouting their money into the game (pay 2 win)! There's an old CCG that is all about completing a story and how you attempt to stop your opponent from completing theirs, which is the closest I've seen to that sort of design mentality.

[@Wolan.]

I think that it's all about finding people who have the same goal. If you came to win in Commander and all other players have the same goal - it becomes competitive. If all players agreed to play to do something just for fun/experience the game looks very differently.

[@00101001000000110011]

we have seen it all folks, gavin gives some praises to commander. even a broken clock can be right twice a day, despite that being useless since you cannot tell WHEN those moments are...

[@hatertime]

It's true. Commander does offer varying flavors of suboptimal midrange piles

[@chulumpthebigmoneywizard851]

This is why Edgar Markov is beautiful. He has the juice. He has the extra bodies. He has the 120 dollar price tag

[@adamdouce353]

This is interesting. I have sat at a Commander game and watched every player play a completely different game.

[@philipboardman1357]

Playing the game is tactics. Deck building is strategy. The meta Is the strategic environment.

[@sithapprentic03]

it feels like commander makes space for different types of expiriences by noticing that peoople have different values and mindscapes about the game and rewarding people for it. the problem is that the game play of commander is often really bad.

[@isambo400]

Commander needs to be broken into like 10 formats. We have how many 60 card formats? Like 10? And how many 100 card formats? Like 2?

[@thechikage1091]

The gameplay of commander becomes bad I think when slog is introduced. Stax pieces that don't contribute to a win and slow everyone else's engines down. Infinite combos on turn 6 after tutors in a game where the others are playing midrange. Mostly I think it's newer people (I played standard in 2016-2017, then didn't play until a couple months ago and only really play casual commander with mostly proxies, so I guess I'm pretty new still) taking like 15 minutes for a turn because they haven't memorized their deck. (Which is understandable in Singleton 100 card format.) The first things with play styles is solved by me just refusing to play against those decks because I value my time as an adult. The second this is just new players taking the time they need to learn the game. I think that can be helped to go quicker if deck building philosophy is less "let me sit here for an hour and build this gun, whoever gets to shoot first wins" and more "let's throw rocks at each other until someone gets hit in the temple." Pressuring life totals, attacking most combats, and playing cards that advance the game state instead of stalling it are ways to alleviate that "bad gameplay."

[@Wolan.]

It gets bed when you're annoyed by other players on table playing the other type of game that you're expecting. That why it's so important to talk before you play, and correct your expectations.

[@GreatWhiteElf]

My life's goal is to be a game designer. If I could be a designer for Magic, I would be so happy

[@distractionmakers]

Like other art forms it’s a lifelong journey. The good news is there’s nothing stopping you from starting now.

[@Wolan.]

Just get to know what you need to achieve to do so. It's important to have a dream job, but when you finally got it it's the journey to get that becomes what matters most of the time. You can dream of becoming Astronaut and end up loving to fly planes.

[@PaulSzkibik]

Completely besides the point but since shroud - hexproof - ward were mentioned as itterations of the same idea: I still think that shroud has a tiny ammount of design space left and could be used very sparingly on creatures that do something interesting and strong, say, based on power or toughness, but you can't just slap and equipment or enchantment onto it and suddenly it's broken. E.g. you want to design a card for commander but maybe it would be way too strong as a voltron-commander. -> give it shroud. Keeping shroud around next to hexproof and ward could give that mechanical family a bit more granularity for adjusting the power level of a card.

[@distractionmakers]

I agree. Perhaps one where only you can’t target it.

[@Sidenonra]

The flaw in commander is how poorly the rules of magic work in multiplayer magic. The biggest flaw being how combat is mostly reduced to one on one.

[@Ninjamanhammer]

I think there's a ton of valid criticism of how the rules of magic work against commander, but I don't think combat being 1 on 1 is one of them.

[@Sidenonra]

@@Ninjamanhammer Have you played a card game where combat is not one on one?

[@chrisjones6792]

I see so few commander games where combat matters outside of like, "craterhoof for lethal" or maybe an ability that triggers when you attack, that I'm skeptical of this idea.

[@Sidenonra]

Okay. That is for so many reasons. One combat in magic favors the defender in so many ways, the easiest point out is in most cases the only damage that matters is the damage that causes a player to lose. You attack with less than lethal I can ignore your attack totally or block things that benefit me. Hense the hoof combat step. Now what if you are a head ether due having the best board state or best set up, and everyone else attacks you in one turn? Here is a good example if player A has 4 6/6's player B has 3 5/7s player c has 5 4/4s and player d has 5 4/5s now if they each attack player A one at a time they likely lose a lot of resources and do not do much damage but if B,C and D attack the same time player A has to make choices on how to block. Also let's say it's player B's attack but player C thinks B is a bigger threat than A, C could also help A by blocking. @chrisjones6792

[@paultapping9510]

​@Sidenonra Arkham LCG has a nice mechanic where players present at the same location can add cards to tests that other players are making, which works well to add a little bit of interactivity to another players turn. Not quite multiplayer, but it's interesting.

[@Mando0Melkor]

I think Kruft is better expressed in the way wow used it, borrowed power, or in the realm of design boorrowed elements, an outside element that seems artificial to the experience.

[@distractionmakers]

Love that definition!

[@mixdberries]

I think you’re misconstruing “Designer” and “Developer” They both help create cards but for differing end goals. Designers help create the mechanics and themes in a set Developers moderate the power-level as well as overall meta aspect of the cards. The competitive MtG scene is where Developers come from but MaRo has stated that Designers are a lot harder to find thus the Great Designer Search.

[@distractionmakers]

I see what you’re saying, but we weren’t talking about developers. Designers can come from a lot of different perspectives including competitive play. High level tournament players are easier to recruit because there is already a connecting factor directly to WOTC. Designers from other perspectives are harder to find.

[@TheMinskyTerrorist]

Ward is good but Shroud being symmetrical is way more interesting than Hexproof

[@F1llm0reSl1m]

I love your channel! Since your channel is focused on game design you focus on MtG gameplay alot, which totally makes sense. But you miss on mentioning many of the other parts of MtG that has helped with its longevity. Namely the collectability, lore, and ways players can express themselves with the types of decks they make and art treatments they choose. Commander plays into the latter two points really well. I know many players who just want a cool cat deck, or group hug deck, or anime deck, or some other concept deck that isn't focused on winning at all. The fact that MtG can be enjoyed from so many angles makes it maybe the best game ever made. I'd be curious to hear your take on some of those other aspects.

[@hugmonger]

Wait wait wait wait wait.................. But commander IS ITS OWN GAME. It uses game pieces from Magic to make a wholly unique game.

[@Wolan.]

No no... the decks you play while playing Commander game make the "game" and Commander is just a system to play it. :) If someone start the Commander with a goal of winning by milling out everyone, and the other player get to play reanimator, that's the very different game for them, from what they designed by making a deck.

[@twgok3162]

@@Wolan.is cod a game or a system just because u can adjust attachments or build. Commander still has a design with cards made for the format and banned cards it's not just a fan made game mode anymore

[@Wolan.]

@@twgok3162 You are not forced to play by those rules at home with friends. You can make your own and it will still work ( if the rules make sense of course). Pauper Commander is one of examples.

[@T4N7]

Funny enough, i find my EDH decks r more competitive than my old 60ish card decks (i have at least 2 or 3 that run 65 cards) since those decks were also designed with multiplayer in mind but were very easy to focus in on the themes whereas with EDH, I either make it able to handle anything or make it to ignore the basic principle of singleton in EDH by making things like Relentless Rats n Shadowborn Apostles or by running tool box generals like Yisan or Sisay who make it so I end up playing the same game every time even tho I have so many "unique" cards.

[@danielcrosby1254]

i would bet money that lethal company game designer plays commander

[@ashemabahumat4173]

Does yugioh certify me for a literary masters degree, then?

[@carlduzett]

7:30 what the actual F man

[@carlduzett]

9:00 okay, there we go

[@caspervejlgard7084]

Starbucks sponsorship?

[@distractionmakers]

Haha Starbucks getting into the covert advertising game by sponsoring a little channel about game design. Well put it in our own cup next time though. Shouldn’t be giving them advertising for free.

[@Wolan.]

Just give them a chance. Maybe you'll get at least coffee for free :)

[@00101001000000110011]

i am amazed at the lack of "mm, achually yugioh..." in the comments!

[@geek593]

Yugioh is an example of what to avoid as a designer. Its success is a study in brand recognition and sunk cost.

[@Xoulrath_]

​@@geek593bingo. There was a point in time where I loved YGO. That time has long since passed. I played a game of YGO just last week, with my daughter's boyfriend. The decks were cool in what they did, but it basically boiled down to who went first. Being able to go through a third of your deck on your first turn and win isn't playing a game, no matter how fun it can be to do that. Combo decks in Magic can win fast, but they are fun to play agaisnt because the variance keeps them in check. Once each opponent has a deck that can win turn one 50% of the time, you may as well just be flipping a coin and saving time.

[@Wolan.]

​@@Xoulrath_That why I don't like to play against competitive decks - they are very repetitive and make a boring game if not playing for stake. Their place is in tournament.

[@spammyv]

I wish more Commander players did have the epiphany moment of "What is the experience that I am creating for the other players, and how do I make sure they want to play again." If I had a nickel for every thread I've seen of someone complaining that their opponents weren't playing along with the unfun experience they've created, I'd have a Legacy deck by now.

[@isambo400]

Commander is an anti-social format

[@Big_Dai]

While that would be a great idea as a core for a game.. Magic is NOT the game for that. Even less to the current player-base..

[@sorry987654321]

this is so true. i was saying so for years

[@mspirits9911]

Commander is one thing that shows how versatile Magic is compared to other card games, which limit themselves into 1 on 1. And most people that played magic and commander actually did not realized how versatile it is, as the range of gameplay is amazing, ranging from solo to 7 people multiplayer.

[@hellNo116]

7 people? really?????? that sounds terrible. you would wait forever for you turn. i can get behind 8 people 2 headed giant, but not 7 people commander.

[@distractionmakers]

We actually used to play with as many people who showed up to play. 10+ sometimes. The trick is to keep the rules the same as 1v1, 60 cards, 4 copies, 20 life.

[@hellNo116]

​@@distractionmakers​ wait you mean to tell me you played free for all games like that? that sounds insanely fall. a friend had done something similar with kitchen table magic. he had brought his elves deck and i think he had added craterhoof or like that. his uncle had a birds deck which was kinda weak and the solution the thought of was giving that deck 4 sol rings. i should try this with some restrictions. maybe blocks or something. budget is a bad idea since you can do insane stuff with some pauper decks.

[@hellNo116]

magic deckbuilding teaches design the same way educational programming languages like scratch teach programming. i don't say this to reduce magic as a teaching tool for game designers. i am saying this to show how i have experienced it. basically you have a variety of gameplay experiences in all formats which give you exercises of how to build decks, and you have access only to the features of the game since you cannot design your own cards. basically you are limited within the limits of the card pool. basically magic is the designers training wheels.

[@distractionmakers]

There’s nothing stopping you from making your own cards. That’s probably the next step after playing mtg.

[@hellNo116]

@@distractionmakers yeah obviously. i mean that you won't do it immediately. i doubt that many people struggling to make a deck function smoothly will take up the challenge to make cards. however as i am writing this i thought of a young aspiring game designer in a play group in my city who does it and he is not the most experienced deck builder i know, so maybe i am wrong and i am putting arbitrary barriers on my self and i should delve into that too. :P

[@NijAAlba]

The boss of GGG, Chris Wilson alongside some others, play a lot of MTG and it has always influenced their designs. Thats why there are foils in path of exile for their unique items.

[@michaellui5108]

☝️ I agree