How The Stargazer Almost Caused a Scandal

[@kentlindal5422]

"The ship is old! It should be decommissioned!" Meanwhile, the Excelsior: "Please let me die."

[@jean-lucpicard5510]

Reliant was still around and far older than the Ambassador class, yet that thing had disappeared by the TNG era.

[@jhmcd2]

Starfleet: "Naahhh, I think we've got another 20 more years we can get out of you buddy. We got a nice retrofit program all ready and waiting."

[@Grathew]

Excelsior is starfleet's buff. As we know buff is forever.

[@mhraen]

​@Grathew I'm glad someone else thought of that! Somewhere on some system plan (classified by starfleet) we will find the b52 as the core skeleton of the excelsior...

[@Grathew]

@mhraen I think they fall into the same bucket: something old that works and does a job that would be too expensive to replace fully, so it's stuck in upgrade hell. Although I do belive the Excelsior falls into the we designed something very good bucket, like the F-15

[@Prang972]

There are quite a few world leaders and decades old generals who could learn alot from this channel. Well done, sir.

[@Ty-yt3lj]

This channel has probably done more damage to my sleep schedule than anyone else and frankly I’m ok with that idea

[@davidponseigo8811]

I must agree, I save all new Star Trek videos for bedtime and watch them in bed before I go to sleep.

[@MajinLoki1987]

Hahaha it's so funny you say that. I like to put ship chats on the lowest volume I can on my phone and it always helps me fall asleep 😁

[@DeaconBlu]

Lol! Right? 😆😎👍

[@mikeclemens795]

😂

[@nomercyinc6783]

not going to sleep because a youtuber posted is rather stupid and your own fault. cant blame other people for your decisions

[@rex290]

I really like the 'no capability replacement' idea for why the Constellations were kept around. Another aspect of why SF had so many older designs in active service is the possibility of the Federation Council not authorizing huge ship replacement budgets. You mentioned a lack of exterior threat driving down ship design, the same thing might very well have kept funds from being voted that could have been used to build more shipyards, maybe open another fleet design bureau, etc, etc. Great video as always!

[@theodoremccarthy4438]

I keep looking at the Zumwalt-class destroyer and thinking that Star Fleet, as a research focused para-military organization, likely had an even worse impulse towards making their designs so cutting edge as to be nigh unusable. This leaves them stuck with lots of older designs because the cutting edge prototypes keep flopping. Just take the Defiant's known teething troubles as an example, and the fact that loss of the Yamato caused the Enterprise to immediately worry that the Galaxy class may have a catastrophic design flaw.

[@crownprincesebastianjohano7069]

I am glad you spent time to explain the make-up and age of Starfleet in the 2350s during the height of the Cardassian Border Wars. People often ask how the Cardassians could be a credible opponent to Starfleet when the Galor Type II was so easily handled by the Enterprise D in "The Wounded." Well, during the height of the War in the mid-2350s, the Galaxy and Nebula were not in service yet, or in so few numbers as to not play a role, and the Galor Type II in its numbers especially, rated favorably against the vast majority of Starfleet's ships of the era, many of which were 23rd Century legacy ships. People make the mistake of rating an enemy's fighting power based their newest weapons rather than the actual TOE of their front-line units that is majority older and lesser equipment. I.e., don't rate the German Army of 1944 in the West based on the several King Tiger Heavy Panzer Battalions, but by the 80% of the Panzer Divisions in the West made up of Panzer IVs (and usually after D-Day with a battalion of StuG IIIs instead of tanks) and maybe 15% of Panthers, against which the Allied armor divisions rate quite favorably.

[@joshpetersen5968]

That is a good point. I'd always thought of the Galors(until upgraded during the Dominion War) to be roughly equivalent to the Excelsiors, so it took something on the order of the Ambassador/Probert(Narendra) or Galaxy/Nebula classes to outmatch them. So while the Federations cutting edge designs could walk all over the Cardassians best, they were only available in such tiny numbers or hadn't even been launched yet that the Cardassians were able to stay competitive with the units actually deployed to the Border. Also the Federation ROE likely sucked due to the general pacifistic attitudes most higher ups in the Federation had, attitude that didn't get adjusted until after the Borg and Dominion, so the Cardassians could get away with things that a Commander like Kirk or the late 23rd Century Starfleet Admiralty knew how to deal with.

[@crownprincesebastianjohano7069]

@@joshpetersen5968 Correct! Moreover, the Cardassians are not stupid, they are known for their tactical brilliance. It isn't hard to figure out how they would fight the Federation and it bears out in how we hear about them from Miles O'Brien. When fighting a democracy, there are two ways to win wars: 1) On the battlefield, 2) By swinging public opinion in that democracy to ending the war. If I were the Cardies, I would avoid large set-piece battles and target older Starfleet ships and outposts. Civilian outposts. Like Setlik III. Democracies cannot stand body-counts. Even when small numbers of Nebulas show-up, the Cardies can avoid them and keep hitting the Mirandas and Excelsiors. Moreover, its not like we don't see conflicts taking a toll on the Federation by less technologically advanced foes. In TOS it was very clear that D7s were no match 1-on-1 with Connies, and that even 8 Warbirds couldn't even bring down a Connie's shields after 20 minutes of bombardment. Yet the Klingons and Romulans are real threats. Galor IIs and IIIs are far more effective against a Galaxy, in the order of 3-to-1 for a Type II and 2-to-1 for a Galaxy, than the D-7s and Crickets were against the NCC-1701. War is more complicated than most people realize. It isn't about trading card stats, but strategic, operational, and LASTLY, tactical outcomes.

[@chrissonofpear1384]

@@joshpetersen5968 I rate the Galors as equal to many Excelsiors myself. I have my own developing headcanon of the war... slowly building into a fanfic. Would be a series of intermittent border skirmishes from the 2340s to 2350s, only peaking to a full 'war' or close to it, by the late 2350s. Mind you, I was married somewhat to the novels Mosaic and Pathways defining it as 'four years' or so. And with Setlik III firmly set in 2362, more consistent with O'Brien's age and enlistment. Those are things not wholly consistent with the Autobiography book, though.

[@DrewLSsix]

It's also plausible that the federation was in a similar place as the US in Vietnam or the middle east, facing lesser opponents technologically but not able to secure a clear win largely due to politics and doctrine. A win state for the federation is also nebulous in this conflict, they don't want to conquer the Cardasians, they don't want to dismantle their infrastructure and leave them decimated. They just want to make peace while protecting and maintaining their territory. The Cardasians on the other hand want territory and resources, they are willing to keep engaging a superior force knowing they can't realistically defeat them militarily, but they can still gain things through wearing down the enemies willingness to keep fighting. And it arguably did work as the federation ceded some territory even though they could certainly have driven them back with an overwhelming show of force. But being the type of nation they were the Cardasian government would no doubt be willing t9 sacrifice those lives and ships and keep pushing.

[@tavonbrown1067]

I totally agree can't get to sleep on a normal schedule

[@mrsamaritan6881]

The Excelsior-class was designed to replace the Consitution-class, this is even alluded too when the Excelsior first appeared on-screen in The Search for Spock. The Ambassador-class was designed to replace the Excelsior-class, but Starfleet never fully committed to that, instead leap-frogging over the Ambassador-class with the Galaxy-class. If not for the Dominion War, the Excelsior-class probably would have been retired completely, but Starfleet's desperate need of ships kept them from being mothballed.

[@mattwho81]

Excelsior is a rare example of a first-rate capital ship being successfully relegated to support roles. Excelsior was built to be future proof, and was easily upgraded. While bigger and better designs came and went the old Excelsiors were just too good in a secondary position and kept going.

[@Karagianis]

@@mattwho81 So, Excelsior is the Warspite? :)

[@Kreachie]

I "Certain" all this won't come back to bite them at Wolf 359.

[@marcuspacheco3815]

Wake up bro wolf 359 was inside job. 😂

[@metalmadness5851]

Wolf 359 would have ended up the same. Replacing the ships wouldn't have solved the key problems: arrogance and tactical stagnation.

[@Ty-yt3lj]

@@metalmadness5851 but it would have HELPED. They did maybe 2% of the damage the Cube could take at Wolf 359 and, for their troubles, lost 39 ships. A better fleet would’ve had more survivors and more damage done

[@shanehudson3995]

​@Ty-yt3lj A better fleet would have benefitted from officers that were more combat and tactically minded. Neither are traits that are well held in Starfleet.

[@metalmadness5851]

@@Ty-yt3lj No, it wouldn't have. In fact it would have been worse, since there would have been thousands more officers, crew, and civilians dead. Any damage done to the cube was undone long before the Enterprise caught up again.

[@Yandarval]

If I remember correctly. The TNG Tech Manual (Brown Cover). The Spaceframe design life was one hundred years. So with no combat or anomaly of the week. As ship should have 80+ years. presuming the normal refits and overhauls go though on any ship. For context. RL warship are "supposed" to have a refit every 3-5 years. A refit is just to fix and replace what has broken. An overhaul is when new equipment is swapped in, such as better Phasers or new senor systems.

[@braddl9442]

Yeah that is why they could do things like the constitution class refit and change out everything cause the SPACE FRAMES were so sturdy. Like how they would reuse KEELS of old ships in the age of sail if they were still in good shape.

[@joshwilliams8863]

16 years is a shocking short lifespan! Considering aircraft carriers these days are designed around a 50 year life cycle... the Stargazer is only marginally older than that!

[@baystated]

Is this why Q stepped in the way he did, when he did? The UFP had stagnated, and He couldn't risk that.

[@wardogies]

So too some extent he was helping the federation

[@andrewmalinowski6673]

That idea implies Q had a "vested interest" in humanity specifically, which means giving them a "kick in the ass" relating to the trial was supposed to push them forward rather than resting on their laurels. While most of the TNG era implies the Federation had stagnated and become a space-faring equivalent of the peace-time Roman Republic, but if suggesting Q didn't want them to stagnate then it's likely he either felt connected to humanity or saw their potential which wasn't mentioned until "All Good Things..." when he mentions Picard seeing the paradoxes relating to the time-hopping

[@23GreyFox]

4:25 what is the ship after the Constitution and under the Ambassador? Looks like a mini Ambassador class.

[@TK199999]

I always though it was average of 16 years between 'major refits', not average life spans. As the Stargazer was still rocking late 2390's bridge module as evidence of this. With the scandal being the major problem with the fleet was being neglected as is, with as much the UFP Councils fault as the Admirals. The UFP leadership wanted to believe into the myth of the 'end of history' where the UFP didn't need to spend anymore money on the fleet, that it was good enough. Especially if UFP law stated ships in for refit that are found to be end of upgrade life are to be moth balled. With a new hull being laid down with a one to one ratio as mandated by UFP law to replace the old one. Philippa may have been part of the fleet faction, a group in Starfleet and UFP government who advocated for a fleet rebuild/revitalization. Who were opposed by the dove/static faction saw such rebuilds/replacements with new ships as naked aggression. Siting that as the cause of the turmoil of 23rd century and only peace first with purely defensive fleet as way to bring lasting peace. This idea was not wrong per say in concept, since the Fleet superior officer corps made up for so many deficiencies and found peaceful outcomes in so many possible conflicts. But lacked prospective and didn't understand the limitations that were started to build nor that the other powers in Quadrant would change too not mention encountering new threats not conceived of. I also would argue this mind set lead to political and bureaucratic inertia that still wasn't overcome until Wolf 359. When it was almost too late and why people like SfDebirs argue Q saved the UFP by speeding up its encounter with the Borg or it would never have survived the War with the Dominion.

[@raytrekker]

why not update old ships? New weapons and shields and the show can go on again ❤

[@willgillies5670]

It was compunded by the need for ships after Wolf 359 and during the Dominion War, but both conflicts taught lessons about ship design. Starfleets ships got their teeth and claws back.

[@Jerkwad152]

I picture Picard making the goofy face in the thumbnail during the court martial just to fuck with Philipa Louvois.

[@Optimistprime.]

This is pretty assimilation Picard. He's more likely to be sitting there thinking of how to get her fired, or make her disappear!

[@ryanstephenson7312]

Keeping an old ship well maintained, refit and in service equals wrong somehow. 🤦‍♂️

[@bjackson7886]

7:08 can someone tell me what diagram this is and where i can find it?

[@enterprise1701e]

Here's an interesting "What If?" scenario. Say the Federation kept a 20-to-25-year modernization program running instead of waiting for a ship to stop coming back. What would Starfleet look like when the Stargazer court martial comes up (if it does), and how would the concurrent Cardassian Border War turn out?

[@JayMannStuff]

I love how you're using the music from "The Pentagon Wars" in the background. 😂

[@weightlifting_socialist]

Thank you for the good Star Trek videos

[@nomercyinc6783]

the dramatic face thumbnails are fuckin retarded and childish. stop that dumb shit.

[@wedgeantillies66]

Yeah and no wonder the admiralty covered up the truth of the stargazer as had it got out that a decent chunk of star fleet were running around in outdated and highly demanding maintenance ships that should have been retired years ago. Would have Led to a massive drop in public confidence in starfleets ability to do its job. As a modern and top Notch ship of the line would have easily handled that ferengi marauder like slapping a fly. Yet Picard had to rely upon a dangerous manoeuvre to pull a rabbit out of the hat when stargazer broke down at a critical moment.

[@panelvixen]

In terms of real world equipment readiness reporting, it would take a maybe a 17 minute and 28 second video video to explain why it is that PVT April isn't supposed to write up deadline deficiencies on a 5988-E and then is chewed out for not writing up deadline deficiencies on the 5988-E.

[@matthewcaughey8898]

The dominion war forced a change in thinking at the same time they kept on cranking out old designs to keep the fleets at full capacity. After the dominion war Starfleet was a far stronger force then it had ever been

[@terra7749]

As much as I think she's too old. my bother is psycho enough to take a Constilation, slap rapid fire PDCs on it, give it shock cannons if he could and turn it into a fraking battleship.

[@EliotAnders]

14:00 Could it also be that the Stargazer, an old ship that Starfleet needed on the front lines of exploration, was completely outclassed by an encounter with an unknown species at the time (Ferengi)? She only won by the clever tactic of her captain. I believe Starfleet finally realized how inadequate their fleet was compared to the other races out there and needed to take steps.

[@Mikethemerciless11]

It's a good interpretation, but I tend to think that maybe Picard was court-martialed in part because Starfleet tends to jump right into a court-martial situation rather than going first to an inquiry. In the US military, if a serviceman, be it an officer or enlisted, is thought possibly to have committed a crime, a prosecutor has to first determine if there's sufficient evidence to bring to an inquiry. At the inquiry, if a crime has been determined to have been committed with sufficient evidence, then it goes to court-martial. This is not only to protect the accused, but to protect the prosecutor from being a bit too aggressive. Because if a prosecutor accuses someone of a crime without sufficient evidence, that could cost him his career, if not possible further legal action. In the US Navy, if a commanding officer abandons a ship that possibly could've been saved, that's a crime under UCMJ. I presume that Starfleet has a similar regulation, otherwise that JAG officer wouldn't have brought charges on Picard. I presume, also, she had sufficient evidence for this charge. And because the verdict wasn't Guilty (we don't really know if it was Not Guilty), we can also assume that Starfleet doesn't have a Catch-All regulation, which is Article 134 in the UCMJ, which is Conduct Unbecoming. Meaning if they can't get you on the big charges, they will get you on this one, and that means your career is over. Because Picard wasn't drummed out of the service, there likely isn't this regulation, even though they ought to by virtue of how much they prize Starfleet members behave in certain ways. Your explanation goes into why Picard wasn't at all concerned when Damon Bok returned the Stargazer. Because if a ship somehow is returned like that, or discovered, the service can reopen the case. That being said, I do have a minor problem with your analysis as to why the Stargazer case was dropped, and it's this: Why is a starship presumed to only have such a short lifespan? Sixteen years is a bit too short, which is what you said, but more importantly, I would venture to say that starship technology really hasn't progressed much since the days of Kirk. Sure, ships are faster, potentially more powerful, but we really don't know how much more powerful they really are. If I were to take a late 19th Century naval gun and shoot it at a modern Navy destroyer, I'm pretty sure I'll penetrate that hull and possibly cause some damage. This isn't to say that this makes that late 19th Century gun just as powerful as the gun in the turret of that destroyer, or any of its missiles, but it is to say that what has changed isn't necessarily the effect of the gun so much as other things that make modern guns far more effective. We don't really know how much better phasers and torpedoes are by the time of the Enterprise-D compared with that of Kirk's Enterprise. These are presumptions; valid ones, to be sure, but presumptions nonetheless. The show really doesn't explain why a quantum torpedo is any better than a photon torpedo. We know that was developed after discovering the existence of the Borg and their general capabilities, but....is it really all that much more powerful? Starfleet isn't exactly comprised of very smart people at the top, but even I believe they're not so stupid as to not build vessels meant to supply a particular function as they need. The way I see it, the Stargazer probably was good enough for what it was, being sent to a sector of space merely for exploration purposes. What more do you really need beyond what it could do when it was made in the late 23rd Century? The encounter with the Ferengi was unexpected, as exploration often does give you the unexpected. All in all, though, I don't really have an issue with your intepretation.

[@matthewcaughey8898]

Of note. If the military thinks you screwed up you’re not getting the newest, fanciest flagship of the federation with your choice of crew assignment. Somebody in a high place pulled for Jean-Luc to get the Enterprise D. The quality and caliber of his crew showed when they left his ship and took other assignments. They returned years later to save the federation and their rebuilt ship took its place in the fleet museum. A testament to the people who gave the D to Picard

[@Mikethemerciless11]

@@matthewcaughey8898 My theory is that whoever pulled Picard did so because he wanted someone who thought as they, the admiralty, did. This is not unheard of. After all, the "flagship of the Federation" sounds like a ship with a lot of political and public light on her, and so they're going to want someone in there who will do what they're told and think what to think. Jean-Luc Picard said, with a straight face, that "Starfleet is not a military organization, its purpose is exploration." Nobody who has a brain believes that, but obviously he does, and if he does, so does his commanding admiral, and so many other people. Was Picard and company really so good? They've done some very questionable things, some of which ought to have put them all in prison (I Borg episode is a great example).

[@saladinbob]

The Connie was only finally put out of service in 2401, with it being originally commissioned in 2245, making it in service for 166 years (source, Memory Alpha). No military organisation, quasi or overt, is ever going to operate a system on "what comes back works". You learn far more from a ship returning from a confrontation than you do a ship not doing. If the ship is destroyed you lose operation logs, battle reports. if lost with all hands, crew accounts of the engagement, and merely looking at the ship's battle damage can teach you a lot about the design. One look at the battle damage the Enterprise took from Khan tells you the nacelle strut placement was a major weak point, probably why it was phased out.

[@larqven0192]

I never saw the early 24th C as a Golden Age as much as a Lost Era. Certainly not what with all the Excelsiors, Miranda variants and fragile Oberths we kept seeing. To be fair, we may now have enough kitbash ship classes to say that there were indeed ample developments in the Lost Era, that we just failed to see the newer ships. I'd have to say that Yes, ship design continued, but production runs for these newer, seemingly ever larger and costlier ships were increasingly limited. My head-canon has it that the Khitomer Accords basically tied Starfleet's hands for some time. The Excelsior being the biggest and most powerful ship Starfleet was allowed. Miranda variants being constructed decades after the 23rd Century, and the Excelsior design likewise, for being advanced in its day, and able to be upgraded. The two class designs being big enough to handle most any job in their categories of duties, small enough to be cranked out; especially since shipyards were well accustomed to building them. One should recall that the Miranda was a fairly large ship in the 23rd Century, and the Excelsior was a colossus. Being stuck at those scales would not have seemed a problem at the time. As it is, I tend to think that the newer and larger ship classes that began appearing weren't designed to be bigger and meaner, but larger to be more efficient. That is, Starfleet was thinking of fewer starships doing more jobs. Advanced weapons systems, but designed 'light' for their tonnage, good shields, good 'structural integrity fields' but thin hulls with lots of windows. 'Office Buildings' in space was very much part of the thinking in an age of Federation preeminence and peace. Meanwhile, lots of old school captains and crews wanted to hang onto their old school ships as long as they could. Partially because Starfleet officers and crews may have been expected to have been reduced. I expect that smart Starfleet officers would never openly be caught badmouthing 'new Starfleet'; but their actions might have been more aligned with 'old Starfleet'. It might have been just this sort of thing that Picard's court martial was meant to expose as well?

[@patricknakasone9376]

The Miranda class was in beta cannon still being produced in small numbers by minor shipyards. It was also produced in a "civilian" version.

[@WardenWolf]

Starfleet quietly knew the Stargazer never should have been out there on is own.

[@MrFallingfromgrace]

I LOVE this take on it … makes sense in a way … what comes back sorta works

[@Blackened30]

An average of 16 years service life for a starship seems incredibly wrong. If its true then Starfleet is getting incredibly poor value out of its fleet. Modern day naval ships can take many years to design, and years to construct. You want to get as much valuable service life out of them as you can. 30 years for a light combatant and 50 years for a larger ship like a carrier is more reasonable. A ship seeing 60+ years of service like the Stargazer should have seen many in-port periods for modernization and replacement of old equipment. I don't see why a vessel serving that kind of time should be in and of itself a scandal unless high command is deliberately ignoring the requirement to modernize vessels. That 16 years of average life statistic is frankly far more scandalous to me.

[@chriseash6497]

The whole ‘if it ain’t broke don’t fix it’ trap. As someone who worked Nuclear Engineering on a modern day ship, this statement is responsible for so much. Maintenance matters, as well as supply lines, sometimes you have to update the entirety of your fleet to reduce the strain on your supply lines.

[@AdamKafei]

I know I'm a little late here but I think the thought is worth sharing. The main problem I see with the idea of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" isn't so much the idea as it is the implementation, it comes with the need to decide when something is broken; is it when the pressure is too high? Is it when the pipe starts leaking because the pressure is too high? Or is it when the pipe finally bursts? And when we do fix things, do we fix the symptom and call it fine or do we trace it back to the root and fix that? Further, if we do fix the root, do we then go down the chain and make certain everything is still in spec?

[@poil8351]

I suspect you could say that there are fact different versions of picards past in different timelines and universes. One can easily chalk up the differences to the story happening in a different universe.

[@critter30002001]

Love the ‘Pentagon Wars’ theme at the most appropriate moment!

[@KJAkk]

Does this play into to Galaxy class's projected 100 year planned lifespan?

[@michaelvansise4887]

Naval assets do tend to stick around a bit. Look at Battleship Texas (BB-35), laid down in 1911, launched in 1912, fought in two world wars, was not decommissioned until 1948, now a museum ship.

[@TheSuperhomosapien]

This is the same Starfleet that throws Oberth class ships at the Borg at the battle of Wolf 359.

[@matthewcaughey8898]

The Oberth Class USS Bonstal acted as a communications relay ship as it wouldn’t have been expected to serve in a wave

[@farshnuke]

Respectfully, this represents a key failure to understand the philosophy of Star Trek. Picard is Arrogant but he's arrogant because he's still a militaristic Captain for all his claims to the contrary. What is the moment Sisko makes a fundamental change from Star Fleet Philosophy that wins the Federation the war? He builds an alliance with the Romulans. That could have been Picard, that should have been Picard, they first met the Romulans in the TNG era when both Picard and the Romulans were investigating damage done by the Borg. Instead it takes Garak and Sisko forging an alliance the Romulan way because Picard couldn't do it the Starfleet way. There is this idea among some that Star Fleet is weak because it is not built for war. That is not what Starfleet or Star Trek are about. Even when Star Trek is about war as in DS9 and Enterprise series 3 the theme is that even a just war is wretched, horrible and corrupting. I know some are probably wondering what my comment has to do with the idea ships are outdated? Well Picard series 1 introduced the idea of a fast response fleet of all new super badass ships and the nerds raged because they liked the mish mash of different classes. The idea that keeping those old classes around would be dangerous 1. Does not fit with the idea that Starfleet was literally founded by designers and engineers when it blatantly was. 2. Suggests that keeping old classes around is bad which seems to be blasphemy among nerd fandom 3. It plays into the idea that the Golden Age was a period of weakness. Screw that noise.

[@assemblyrequired7342]

It could also be argued that the Bluegills had their claws in Federation policy. I would be surprised if the Warhawks of Starfleet argued that the entire Constellation fleet should have been phased out in favor of the Cheyennes, but were strongly opposed and outvoiced. There were likely flag officers and technicians who were aware of the Constellation's questionable tactical abilities (that isn't to say that at the time of commissioning that they weren't capable, but that was over 50 years ago!). After all, it was a time of unprecedented peace, and the Constellations were still flying. Just as long as you didn't take them into combat! Or were ambushed.

[@DavidMacDowellBlue]

Why are you presuming Miranda, Constellation, Excelsior, Oberth classes were not still in production?

[@MichaelJohnson-vi6eh]

Great that the missing years were not entirely free from contraversy. What i did miss was what happened to the stargazer again? Did it threaten to blow up everyone eacaped and then it survived?

[@sycyourtube]

Very good points made here. We can imagine that had the process of rethinking their approach had not already started come the Borg they would be doomed.

[@jono_cc2258]

I would go as far as to say the Excelsior class wasn’t truly replaced in the Heavy Cruiser role until the Akira class came along. Also worth noting that a replacement need not directly fill the same role as the requirements can change so whilst Excelsior can be seen as a large general purpose explorer with good armament and defensive systems the Akira shows a move to a more heavily armed cruiser with compromises made in the exploration area. Spot on with Constellation and Cheyenne classes, the similarity is four nacelles, other than that there’s so many differences that it’s clear they have different mission profiles.

[@hogfry]

My counter argument is the OBERTH. It killed more people than influenza. And yet they just kept making the " unscheduled decompression canoe"

[@cmj0929]

So what I’m hearing is had she been allowed to go ahead with the trial the losses in dominion war might not have been so extreme because the ships wouldn’t have been so old

[@robinwolstenholme6377]

old captins dont want new ships witch equles the most expierianced captins on the most antiquated ships. but thats how a more sefisticated ship colud loes a batle against a more advanced ship

[@Relav1364]

I gotta ask... legally, I can see culpable negligence as a charge, it has precedent in Trek, but how the frig did she ever think she had a case for dereliction of duty?! The modern Canadian military specifies the charge IMPROPERLY ACCEPTED CONSIDERATION IN RESPECT OF THE PERFORMANCE OF A MILITARY DUTY. There are three key considerations before the Crown can bring said charge to an officer: The officer must have intent, knowledge that his/her actions are against the specifications of his duty, and acting against the interest of the military. None of that is present. Also is there not conflict of interest given the JAG had a relationship with the defendent? Bunny ears lawyers. But great video!!! More deep lore takes like this, it fills long days of illness!

[@Trek001]

So what you are saying is that old ships need replacing? My friend, I need to introduce you to HMS _Victory_

[@Eledore]

Also, if you have Captains you need them to be out there gaining experience and being useful. Imagine having loads of command capable personnel is sitting on the docks or at a desk. Is that efficient? Well having surplus officers to draw on upon a issue is nice. But somewhere i doubt a lot of officers like being on half-pay (so to speak) after having a successful career up to that point.

[@Hartzilla2007]

I think Starfleet just shut it down because the prosecution theory sounds kind of crack pot. I mean ignoring how the Stargazer was caught by a surprise attack in favor of debating if a 30 year old ship should be doing survey missions or not is pretty what the fuck. Thats like declaring The Ambassador a failure because the Enterprise-C was destroyed.

[@alanmike6883]

It's embarrassing getting caught unprepared by the ferengi

[@Wedgekree]

I'm.. Not sure how it's a viable court martial prosecution where you argue that the Captain should have accepted the ship was so out of date and have told Starfleet Command it was obsolete rather than putting in the effort to keep the ship mission capable. That's the decision of Starfleet Command. That's outside of the Captain's discretion. For making such a statement on the record would look horrible upon the Captain's reputation with command (and thus his career) and be brutal for the morale of the crew. Starfleet Command gave orders. The ship carried them out. The Captain ensured that the crew did what was necessary with the ship so that it was able to maintain it's capabilities. That's doing his job. how exactly that's a viable prosecution is laughable. And why said prosecutor was (likely) given a reprimand for making such a charge in the first place. Scandal -aside- if the charges had gone forwards it would have been brutal for fleet morale. Not even touching on technological capabilities, but the fact for doing thier jobs and keeping their ships operational as best they can they're at risk of being charged with derelection of duty in the event a hostile incident happens is going to cut off fleet leadership at the knees (or thrusters). It wasn't a failure of command or mission profile. The ship was not doing anything against Starfleet regulations. It was engaged in normal duties, encountered an enemy ship, and was damaged badly enough in the aftermath the ship required scuttling. Which while a horrible tragedy, the majority of the crew survived and were rescued.

[@jamiejones7730]

Spaceship goes zoom. ❤

[@enoughothis]

Starfleet doesn't even have the excuse that real world militaries have of needing to balance their budget based on available funding. Starfleet exists in a post-scarcity society. The Federation doesn't have to raise taxes to pay for new ships. I blame simple intransigence. The lack of a driving need to innovate to survive led to stagnation.

[@Ty-yt3lj]

It’s post scarcity on a personal level but ships need dilithium for their reactor chambers, dry docks to build them and people to man them. Those costs add up when you consider that we’ve seen NCC numbers north of 75,000

[@Annieisfreejustlikebutterflies]

Good comment because dystopia does not work never will. Animals are important because before there were machines the large animals did work for humanity. The show Evan Almighty shows that animals are needed and space for animals to roam. Went to a play in the nighties where was from in last century and it was done by Indians in northern region who were descendants of Mongolia and those college kids did a play: No more Elephants. If the future does not include animals and mother nature thinks there is no reason for them they could be forgotten and then there is no way anyone can survive if all are just like peaceful simpletons. Now have to eat some meat. EQ is more important than IQ. I have an adopted out half sister and she is very important and very intelligent and if was able and she was not in a care facility going through dialysis would try to wake her up. I do not need a dna test to know she is my sister.

[@Ty-yt3lj]

@@Annieisfreejustlikebutterflies what the fuck does this have to do with the USS Stargazer

[@metalmadness5851]

Well, we don't get to see what's "under-the-hood" of a lot of the old ships in Starfleet. The Stargazer issue might not have been nearly as bad in less complex designs like the Miranda and Oberth. There's also the issue of the Federation's sheer size increase. They went from power to superpower pretty quickly and need a fleet of truly mammoth scale to maintain their hegemony. FASA estimated that 10,000 to 20,000 ships were necessary in the TOS Era Federation, for example. The necessary numbers of vessels Starfleet needs to function, much less the Federation as a whole, might have prohibited the discontinuation of many of those older vessels. They simply couldn't afford to replace them, only to add to the ranks to try and keep up with demand.

[@andrewmalinowski6673]

Almost reminds me of a line from Adm. Halsey in "The Orville" pilot episode when he tells Capt. Mercer; "You're not the best, but we have three thousand ships and we need captains." Given that both the Planetary Union and United Federation of Planets have such large territories I can easily see tis same thought holding true for the Federation's Starfleet, when you have such large territorial space you need large groups to defend and cover the space you "own" and require a near-equal increase in fleets

[@davidedens6353]

Venom this is not meant to focus on you specifically but why is it never mentioned in the analysis of the Lost Era just how much bigger and how fast the federation grew during this period? Starfleet didn't keep these ships around because they were too lazy or too busy to replace them; I kept them around because they just needed the number of holes to cover the raw volume of space that they now controlled. Do the math. With over 1000 cubic light-years of territory and growing how many ships are you going to actually need just to maintain 1 patrol ship and 1 space station per cubic light-year?

[@crownprincesebastianjohano7069]

An interesting thought!

[@lynngreen7978]

So Picard lost a 60+ year old ship in battle to a much more powerful alien ship at Maxia Zeta, and was court-martialed. He was acquitted, but grounded for a decade. Why was there no court-martial, and in fact promotions for the four men responsible, through incompetence, for the loss of a 8 year old flagship to a ancient Bird of Prey, at Veridian III? LaForge had been kidnapped - by the same enemy - who manipulated his VISOR. But NEVER considered they might have done it again. Worf and Data failed to detect a continuous encrypted signal being sent out. I remind you, that with the technology of a century past, it was possible to detect a single burst transmission. And Riker was in command, and failed to compensate for the failed actions of his senior officers.

[@Hartzilla2007]

The Stargazer was 30 years old.

[@chrissonofpear1384]

@@Hartzilla2007 Only according to recent Picard series relating blogging sites. If the USS Hathaway (300 numbers lower in registry) was '80 years old' in 2365, I can't see the Stargazer being that much newer. So I see the new date as some kind of major re-launch, maybe.

[@lynngreen7978]

@@Hartzilla2007 video said 60+

[@Hartzilla2007]

@@lynngreen7978 The Constellation-class may be 60 years old but the Stargazer was built in 2326.

[@lynngreen7978]

@@Hartzilla2007 Just going by what is said IN THE VIDEO.

[@joestewart6027]

This could explain how the Federation was losing the war with the Klingons when the Enterprise C was displaced. If the condition of a large quantity of Federation ships were in need of repair, replacing, etc, no wonder they were losing.

[@occultatumquaestio5226]

And interesting overlook and Starfleet ship logistics. The flashy stuff can be good, but it needs to correct foundations at scale to support it.

[@paulrasmussen8953]

The sad thing is the Cheyenne could replaced the Constellation. Dimpley give it a modified galaxy saucer. That main shuttle bay is huge

[@mrsamaritan6881]

The Cheyenne was made to replace the Constellation.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

@@mrsamaritan6881 well if it was it failed. While it is quad nacelled it doesn't have shuttlebays and vast utility facilities

[@birdmonster4586]

@mrsamaritan6881 I agree. The Cheyenne had more a more than ample Shuttlebay for its size. Plus its a third larger than the Constellation. So I can believe that it has plenty of facilities on board. Especially given that it is at least a generation ahead, technologically compared to Constellation The many small doors approach of Constellation might just of proven to be less useful practically. Compared to several, or a single larger bay.

[@SuperGamefreak18]

So the potential stargazer scandal was the smoking gun that could have limited the damage to their rep wolf 359 ended up causing...then again that was what decade or two at most for a full overhaul and study for their ships...

[@Hartzilla2007]

If by that you mean a whole bunch of new ships get mulched instead of a lot of old ones. I'm sorry but the enemy getting to know EVERYTHING about your military doesn't get mitigated becuase you have new toys since they are still now immune to them.

[@SuperGamefreak18]

@@Hartzilla2007 not exactly what I meant you’re not wrong when you say the event would have been worse if they had more modern stuff I more meant they had upgrade their fleet to be on par to the ambassador era ships in general not having every ship be the tier of ship that came out after said event

[@DarinRWagner]

That beta canon story where his mother had eramatic syndrome doesn't fit with on-screen continuity since there was no mention of it when Picard learned of it in "All Good Things..." HOWEVER, there was a line where Picard mentioned that he watched his grandfather's mental condition deteriorate until he couldn't walk home by himself.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

good point. though i still prefer it to what Picard S2 gave us.

[@DarinRWagner]

@@venomgeekmedia9886 I prefer simply omitting the family history from P2 and not replacing it with anything. We got what we needed to know from TNG episodes like "Family."

[@chrissonofpear1384]

@@venomgeekmedia9886 There was also several inconsistencies in the book, sadly - about Vigo's death being skipped, for one, and Khitomer being the same year as Narendra, etc. Still, the first half I really liked.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

@@chrissonofpear1384 yeah although I can see why they made them the same year.

[@deamondeathstone1]

That just proves that ST:Picard isn't in the same timeline as TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY. Maybe in the timeline started by First Contact and ENT?

[@paulkirby2761]

Star trek lore seems to regularly base their star captain as being that loose cannon wild child, almost anti authoritarian troubled background type of character that, once they mature and grow, ultimately gives them an edge over "normal" captains in high pressure situations that needs immediate decisive(and most importantly the correct) courses of action that wins where defeat or catastrophe would normally be the most likely outcome had they not been that tough troubled charscter in their youth. I'm ok with it, and adds some interesting background stories to branch off into between "current times" episodes. I remember an episode with Q where Picard needed an artificial heart from a bar fight with a huge alien species just to further showcase how cocky and action driven he was in his youth. He was given the chance to go back and be more responsible etc but ultimately that translated into him never progressing beyond some dull lowly position in Starfleet, which highlights my point that Gene or other writers definitely had a like to a star captain from a troubled and wild background.

[@admiralhorton7121]

the problem with this idea a ship is only good for 16 years is a load of crap. Today there is a thing called an overhaul, Starfleet would under take overhauls thats is y a ship could server for 60+ years. This show people writing Star Trek has no idea what they r doing as they have no idea how current ships work and their maintenance schedules today

[@danielseelye6005]

There's a difference between the environment a water based ship or modern plane had to endure versus the harsh environment of space upon a starship. Planes can be put up in a boneyard, ships can be pulled out of the water and drydocked. No matter what, a starship will _always_ be exposed to the harsh hostile environment of space, even when "laid up" in reserve.

[@birdmonster4586]

Yeah. A ship can stay in service for as long as it is relevant to the fleet. If a frame became too old to accept current technologies, or it simply became unreasonable to crew an old ship instead of a newer one. Then it would be reasonable to remove it from service. But after 16 years? For little to no reason? Nah.

[@admiralhorton7121]

@@danielseelye6005 Bull, with the technology Starfleet has they would still have overhaul (major refit) for their ships as having to rebuild the fleet every 16 years is a waste of resources and unsustainable

[@birdmonster4586]

​@admiralhorton7121 I agree in general with this point. When it comes to retiring a ship in starfleet. You basically have to prove that it has no place left in the fleet that isn't being done better, by another ship. Otherwise you are wasting a valuable resource.

[@panickedpaladin3966]

16 years is crazy short, you'd be building ships just to throw them away, 60 is actually a much more reasonable average lifespan when it comes to ship service. In the episode with Scotty, Geordi makes the claim that Scotty's 80+ year old piece of crap decrepid ancient rustbucket would still be in service today. Maybe not in lead roles, but it doesn't take an F-35 to haul cargo and personnel.

[@jasonhayes238]

Perhaps the trial exsposed that Starfleet new the Stargazer was dangerously underpowered but didn't want to spend the resources to maintain her properly. How many other ships where in the same state? The Stargazer was involved in the Cardassian border war at the time of her loss.

[@danielseelye6005]

The _Stargazer_ was "underpowered" only so much as all the other Constellation-class were as well by necessity. They had a really powerful new warp core at the outset but, like the _Defiant_ the hulls couldn't handle the power, so they had to "detune" them. Unlike the _Defiant,_ they didn't have a Miles O'Brien to work it out so they were perennially underpowered.

[@CaptShriver]

Now this will be interesting. Kudos to you for exploring this. It wasn't explored a whole lot in TNG except the one episode. Maybe there was two episodes but this is good stuff. I'm really looking forward to finish listening to this

[@timothyhiggins8934]

good video. there should be a scandal for stp season 3. how is it that the ENTIRE fleet was in 1 star system? how is it that no one who wasn't human didn't complain about that? the worst lawyer today would have a field day with this

[@rayvenkman2087]

There’s times to suspend your disbelief for a story to work but that one is beyond asinine to where I wonder if this is really the future of writing where writers can’t even stop and question the absurdity of their plot logic or not know how to consult a dictionary and thesaurus so that they don’t use the wrong words for descriptors in their writings like using any absolute words like entire or whole for something that probably doesn’t match the meaning.

[@hanzzel6086]

It is soo absurd! What, are there no border threats left at all at this point? Not even natural disasters? Never mind the logistics of

[@merafirewing6591]

Picard and even the crew of the Stargazer were very lucky to survive the encounter and also the Stargazer still has alot of life left in her.

[@Qardo]

Well, Stargazer pulled off a new trick that I do not believe we've seen any other Starfleet vessel do. To do such a warp jump in such a short distance. It is amazing we do not see it done more with newer ships that clearly had more power than the Stargazer (Hell, I do not think the Picard Maneuver is even in STO. Shameful).

[@TheRezro]

@@Qardo It was actually not that useful. It work because of bug in Ferengi targeting computer.

[@MrAranton]

@@Qardo if you buy a Constellation class cruiser, it has a console that allows it - and any other ship you equip with that console - to perform the Picard manoeuvre.

[@rmcdudmk212]

Even in his younger yes Captain Picard was making waves and ruffling the feathers of the brass. 👍

[@Qardo]

Picard just had a way to rub the right people the wrong way. While he gained a lot of supporters. He made his fair share of enemies. I mean, did not help his reputation after being Borged, but he got better after that and was the leading voice to combat against the Borg. Being he had first hand knowledge of the enemy and did not want anyone to suffer that fate. Not even his worse enemies. Though, few listened to him. Even after being shown a clear example of how powerful the Borg are with Wolf 359. Yet, still, there were those who didn't truly listen. Gave lip service, put some resources in the projects to battle the Borg. But, never truly put any real effort into it. Cause there were still those that thought the Borg were a one time thing. Just one ship. They were far way and a nonissue. Then, the Dominion War kicked off. All those Anti-Borg ships. They became the fighting force against the Dominion. After the Dominion War. Battle of Sector 001, Borg Queen really did not time her attack on Earth very well. Cause those ships that fought in the Dominion War. They were now doing what they were designed to do. Though, I know the battle took place after Voyager returned home. So, likely the Queen was attacking Earth in a blind rage. Than, in a tactical cold calculating mind. Unlike the second time she attacked Earth and pretty much Borged the Youth Population of Earth and Starfleet. That was very tactical and cold. So, back to Picard. Yeah. Picard made waves in his youth and even growing older. Just did it in different ways. Turns out getting your heart destroyed in a bar brawl does not completely change you as a person. Just makes you more tactful.

[@DeaconBlu]

Great vid sir! Thank you!

[@GRIGGINS1]

Whenever the Stargazer entered a star system. The Sanford and Son theme song played lol.

[@SuperGamefreak18]

you know ive been wondering where you found that ship evolution chart because ive been looking for it for a while

[@jhmcd2]

There is one minor, and I mean minor error of analysis. Starfleet did face routine conflicts during this time period, like the Cardassian border wars. However, the fact that they seemed to always negotiate their way out of them before they became Dominion War scale conflicts still does not in any way debunk your argument. In fact, it probably reinforces it big time. Those conflicts were so small, only a few crew officers recall them, and Trek was really keen on showing that when it came to the Cardassian border wars. It would have reinforced their thinking. Stargazer may have finally been the wakeup call, or at least the final nail in the coffin that told them they needed to upgrade the fleet.

[@GusTav2187]

The Pentagon Wars theme music could spark the following question: Which starship is the "Bradley" of Star Trek? 🤔

[@birdmonster4586]

A fun question. But don't take Pentagon wars out of context too much. It's a comedy first and not exactly a historically accurate portrayal of people and events.

[@CaptainSovereign]

@@birdmonster4586 Defiant?

[@Nala15-Artist]

Oberth?

[@birdmonster4586]

@@CaptainSovereign maybe? Both ended up becoming quite successful. But defiant had a troubled development and seemingly a limited production Whereas Bradley was fairly normal and well produced.

[@barrybend7189]

Saber.

[@jonuiuc]

on the picture starting at 10:55 in the 2nd column 2325-2335, whats that ship at the very bottom, the one that comes after the Constitution and before the New Orleans?

[@awildcanadianappears9885]

Best trek content on KZbin!

[@johnn9977]

Good information

[@scpguy1381]

Hey could you make some sort of place where you post all these charts you’ve made. There are a lot, which would be cool to see in their entirety

[@starclone4]

Thank you, that was Great !!!!!

[@SnowmanTF2]

While the captain having that kind of control on ship service, or anything above light mantence while on mission, and the ~16 years does flat out contradict the reuse of old ships in TNG; given how crew heavy TOS/MP era ships were and the warp speed improvements, it also would be more logical than the 100-ish years some other sources imply. If the old ships were not easy to retrofit in the automation and speed changes; it seems like there still would be plenty of pressure to cycle out the older ships for more efficient and dramatically faster ships like Nova or Intrepid class. Another thing is the issue of not getting monetary payment, Starfleet would also have pressure to at least get crew the amenities of newer ships for staff retention and moral, and higher automation would help their too.

[@ransom182]

I'm trying to think of a ship that actaully replaced the Constellation's role... the Nebula sort of? Maybe the Parliment class?

[@enterprise-h312]

9:33 Given that the borders of the Federation continue to expand and Starfleet's role includes that of exploration ships would very much show when they became inadequate, although the department that would notice is perhaps not sexy enough to garner much attention. I mean, of course, the Tellar Space Administration (novels)/Starfleet logistics division. When it suddenly takes a lot longer for supplies to reach the (new) outer colonies you are going to take notice even if there is peace.

[@shanenolan5625]

I didn't read the book . But i remember in beta canon somewhere . Afterwards he was stationed at star fleet headquarters, and a star base. For 9 years before he was commissioned captain of the enterprise by admiral satee of all people. . But its why he seemed to know the various admirals do well . Welith a few exceptions

[@richard1701able]

These older ship are important. Navies today have reserve fleets of older but still seaworthy (in this case spaceworthy) ships that can still contribute. You never know when you might need a replacement ship in a wartime emergency. Consider it from a mirco, individual scale. It's 2260 and a 21 year old cadet has just squeaked their way through the academy with the equivalent of a Third. This new officer is considered to have a role to play in Starfleet, but would probably be overwhelmed with the workload and responsibilities of a new Galaxy Class. Probably sending them to an older Constellation or Miranda Class where they can get more on the job training and experience away from the front lines, would most likely be a better opinion for them.

[@matthewcaughey8898]

In Star Trek lore those reserve fleets were vital in the opening days of the Dominion war. Those old ships held the line until they were destroyed or replaced by newer ships. Starfleet was saved by its old reserve fleets

[@hmsverdun]

As a question how long do the Single Nacelle ship designs stay in service until the idea is considered to be obsolete? I know we see them in Enterprise and they in theory go until at least the monitors of the dominion war. Do they ever fully go away (thinking maybe the PIcard/Legacy era) as it seems like a problem to just be able to go one way in a straight line even if its efficeint fuel wise. Or is it a they are useful in specific roles such as the first contact ships and inter federation duties so they go specialised but never fully go out of service?

[@hanzzel6086]

As I understand it they can still maneuver in warp, they are just really slow. And as I understand it they never really go away, as they fill the small local patrol/utility role. More importantly, they are really cheap. Fun fact! The Oberth is technically just the science variant of a single nacelle gunboat.

[@hmsverdun]

@@hanzzel6086 Yes I remember that was one of the theoretical fast tracks to Captain when they say you can have your own ship in 8 years was to give people gunboats and see how they deal with it although I remeber the Oberth getting extra nacelles. Its just that Kirk in the era was good enough that he skipped the whole business and got given Enterprise early (although Pike choosing him via time shenanigans probably helps).

[@trevynlane8094]

Naval strategy is build strategy, so the the admiralty should have been planning a service life for all ships from the start (I.E. build until they stop coming back or 50 years, instead of just the former).

[@rogermoore9742]

Remember the throw away line in Star Trek 6? Are we going to mothball Starfleet? Klingon had to change their focus. Starfleet did not need new ships. Until the Borg. Thanks Q.

[@thepropagandastudiosbrigs0927]

Id go farther that the trial would put an incredible amount of responsibility on starship captains for what was the admiralty's job. Asking a Captain to tell Starfleet when to decommission their command as well as being 100% responsible for insuring their ships were 'top of the line' and any deviation for what this likely fluid definition was meant court martial? yeah no a nukber of officers would just straight up quit Starfleet. Picard seemed to be a well known and respected officer during the Stargazer years fleet wide and convicting him of being a damn good officer would have gutted the fleet.

[@philly83]

The Narendra would have been the best option to replace the Excelsior? That is blasphemy!

[@occultatumquaestio5226]

The Sovereign I would say is more well-suited successor for the Excelsior, IMO.

[@Ty-yt3lj]

Best at the time. The Ambassador was too expensive and the Galaxy Class simply way too big for a 1/1 replacement, given it’s twice the size.

[@TheMelbournelad]

Wait Sean Farrell!! As in trekCulture?

[@quentinking4351]

At 13:12 the text on the USS Ahwahnee is mirrored, while the USS Stargazer is not

[@warrenreid6109]

I can see a young ambitious Picard pushing his crew to hold the ship together with duck tape and bubblegum to retain a command. I'm sure that he left alot out of his maintenance logs.

[@matthewsolis7075]

Geek is back let’s go

[@Vanessinha91Pucca]

I hate the idea of the Excelssior III. I'm positive that the Galaxy would have replace it by Picard timeline. Plus, more than 3 refit is excessive.. Same as i hate the "Constitution III"... :(

[@BANGOTRON]

Is this a re-upload? I coulda sworn you did this topic already

[@paulkirby2761]

By the way, speaking of Romulan D'deridex Warbirds, here's a question for you(and perhaps a good vid to make) that I always wondered. In TNG when the Enterprise(itself an ultra-rare Galaxy Class in a mostly antiquated Miranda and Excelsior etc equipped fleet) introduced us to the first appearance of the beautiful new and very powerful Romulan D'deridex class Warbird, the Romulans were apparently AFK for a many decades of not longer. My question is, how powerful was the Romulan fleet supposed to be at that point? How many D'deridex Warbirds had they and would it have been a one sided backside kicking had the Romulan Star Empire launched an attack on the Federation? It almost seemed like the only reason the Romulans were semi-reluctant to launch a war ONLY because they felt Starfleets alliance with the Klingons was something that might prove to be less than the one sided demolishion job Romulans always lean towards before picking fights. Even at that, there was one encounter where 2 Romulan Warbirds were about destroy the Enterprise and bragging about it so they were clearly very keen on the idea of starting a war they undoubtedly felt confident they'd win, which to me would suggest that beyond the massive advantage of a cloaking device and extremely powerful new ships, they must also have had a lot of them?

[@matthewcaughey8898]

The Romulans are bluffers. The warbird while impressive was a huge hit to their limited resources. I honestly do t think they had that many prior to the dominion war. Plus they were always trying to build a “ cheaper” warbird where they struck a balance between cost and capability. The Valdore from nemesis looked like the Romulan Star Empire had finally hit on a success story. A ship that wouldn’t financially wreck your economy but had enough firepower and defenses to not be a pushover. You also have to consider how many D’deridex warbirds the Tal Shiar lost in that disaster when with the cardassian obsidian order when they tried attacking the founders homeworld. It’s also why the Romulans weren’t interested in fighting the war. I’m sure their shipyards weeded working overtime however to make up for losses. During the war Commander Tomalok was instrumental in a number of very deep strikes into dominion territory. Those strikes generally didn’t use a lot of D,deridex class warbirds for whatever purpose. ( I suspect the Romulans kept a lot of those closer to home for defensive purposes)