How the world's first sand battery stores green power - BBC News

The world's first fully working "sand battery", which can store green power for months at a time, has been installed by Finnish researchers.
The developers said this could solve the problem of year-round supply, a major issue for green energy.
Using low-grade sand, the device is charged up with heat made from cheap electricity from solar or wind.
The sand stores the heat at around 500C, which can then warm homes in winter when energy is more expensive.
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[@ZeuzBluez]

It s an old technique. I was born in a berber village on the border between sahara desert and atlas mountains where it s very sunny during the day and below zero at night. We used to store hot sand in insulated bags at mid afternoon n use them at night as hot sand heaters.

[@rennyotolinna2863]

Yes, of course, that's why those Berber villages are so advanced and have generated heat and/or electricity for themselves and their country, and sold great technology to the rest of the world... Ah, it's not like that...

[@qwertyqwerty-ek7dy]

@@rennyotolinna2863 What the fuck are you talking about?

[@hassanalbolkiah127]

@@rennyotolinna2863 you discover things everyone else had 2000 years ago and act like you made some brand new technology, what next you are gonna figure out rotating crops on farms? Or that growing rice is better than growing wheat?

[@Yutanpo96]

"Sahara desert" so it's Desert desert.

[@andrewgraham1418]

@@rennyotolinna2863 Your condescending sarcasm is uncalled for, where the commenter was offering some historical and cultural context, not bragging. Many innovations in technology make use of old methods paired with new insights and designs.

[@Marc-uw4lw]

I hope they're talking about sand from deserts because theres no shortage of that, but there's already a limited supply of building sand

[@sarcasmo57]

oh good. I was wondering.

[@hawks9142]

Yeah. It wouldn't be sand usable for concrete. The thermal mass would be the same for all types of sand

[@revoke6639]

@romeo415 lol different types of sands

[@alooga555]

Actually, sand has become so scarce in China for construction use that the country dredges huge amounts from ocean floors.

[@gareth4592]

It will be desert sand, the only reason why we dont use it for building is that desert sand is rounded from being blown around all day for years. for the purpose of a salt battery the shape of the particulates doesnt matter...ie desert and beach sand is equal

[@alphatucana]

Storage heaters are nothing new, but this seems like a good implementation of the idea, and it may scale up quite well.

[@onehitpick9758]

Maybe spin up the sand while you're at it, and make a thermal flywheel hybrid, although that seems wildly dangerous if there is a hull breech.

[@stevec6427]

@@onehitpick9758 Splitting the energy to heat and kinetic seems a bit pointless as you'll need two processes to split the energy and two processes to extract the energy. You'll also have the issue of dealing with heat expansion and moving parts which can be overcome but not with ideal efficiency

[@marianlincoln9008]

@@stevec6427 as we use sand paper to smooth or shape other objects I think the fly wheel idea is a bit overrated as it with quickly DESTROY the moving parts thru abrasion...

[@tedmoss]

@@onehitpick9758 Beam me up, Scotty.

[@tedmoss]

@@stevec6427 The Carnot-antigravity cycle.

[@Ianmundo]

you can’t store electricity in sand but if the temperatures stored remain well above 100 degrees you can heat water and drive turbines to generate electricity on demand. Fascinating technology

[@MINI-ME666]

it is scum and lyes on grate scale

[@billytheweasel]

In Hawaii they use daytime solar to pump water up hills and release the water into a trough with micro-turbines at nights. I heard of this many years ago anyway. Usable energy is the problem... storage.

[@RaglansElectricBaboon]

Well done for answering that last question in a constructive way. I was going to be rude and that wouldn't have helped anyone!

[@stevec6427]

Electricity is just a type of energy. There's lots of ways to store that energy to convert it back to electricity on demand. Llanberris power station is a nice example of energy storage

[@jackobey2815]

i wonder what other kind of 'low tech' technologys we could be making use of?

[@amirmoezz]

For curious ones out there, the sand is builder sand, also known as Building Sand.

[@valevisa8429]

Are you talking about mason sand ,which is very fine ?

[@amirmoezz]

@@valevisa8429 Yes, it's also known as Plasterer's, or Bricklayer's sand.

[@FOXARAYT]

hii

[@MINI-ME666]

it is scum and lyes on grate scale

[@coryparni3620]

Sharp sand

[@alicebellamio5491]

Finland people have much wisdom!!

[@alicebellamio5491]

Jesus said "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter” (Matthew 7:21).

[@edss]

Simple technology is always the best technology! Same concept as storage heater but on an industrial scale, makes you wonder why nobody had done it sooner!

[@johnjames4681]

Cheap energy encourages waste and laziness.

[@MINI-ME666]

it is scum and lyes on grate scale

[@t1n4444]

It has been done before, many, many times in the decades before. The heat collector medium was concrete, as in the roof of a building, the heat transfer medium was water flowing through pipes in the concrete and the heat storage dump was a huge tank of water in the basement. The theory was proved. However, the problem was that a "lot" of concrete was required in the building's construction. Ergo it's debatable if this was a truly "green" solution. Some variations had a vast two story "green house" built on the sunny side of the building which also collected heat and stored said heat in the basement water tank. Heat pump did the "heat reclamation" thing. Japan did something similar by covering buildings in earth/soil as the heat store. Buildings included a secondary school. These were amongst the passive heating type buildings. Using mass as a heat collector or shield has been seen in Yemen where there are some ancient multi storey buildings constructed of mud. Using that method of mud can be found in entire communities living in the US where "alternative communities" have built some excellent homes of mud. That method was a modified method used by the indigenous Indians who lived there centuries before. The ultimate is geothermal heat where the heat can be both used as raw heat and generating electricity. This is well known in Iceland. Here in UK we are planning to use old deep coal mines flooded with water to collect and transfer heat from the planet itself. Many, many years ago I was a gold miner for an entire afternoon in a gold mine to the east of Jo'berg. The level at which I worked was only just over a mile deep. The galleries were cooled by very cold air blasted through pipes, On the western side of Jo'berg, in the "Western Deeps" the gold reef was around 12 thousand feet deep and heat from the surrounding rock was much greater. The blast air system coped, just about. The lesson being that the planet itself can supply gigawatts of energy in the form of heat leaking out from the core, quite apart from the energy from the sun. So, the sand idea is a miniscule model of how the planet works. To repeat, the sand idea is just the latest variation of a very, very old idea. To echo others one can only wonder why it was never used before other than in a few projects. I'm old enough and cynical enough to guess it was intense lobbying from the oil and coal industries, but who knows for sure.

[@t1n4444]

@@johnjames4681 Utter, utter rubbish.

[@johnjames4681]

@@t1n4444 Plenty of oil why work? Arabia turns oil into water. Russia is technologically weak. Venezuela is in chaos.

[@IAmSoMuchBetterThanYou]

Has nobody considered storing heat in oatmeal? That stuff stays scolding hot for hours.

[@alexkitchen8714]

some say it is immune to the laws of thermodynamics and gets hotter...

[@bugsygoo]

Only works if you can get the temperature just right. Not too hot, not too cold.

[@betenoirproductions6062]

@@bugsygoo 3 Bears Energy, Ltd are working on it as we speak. Project Goldilocks.

[@paulthomas8262]

lol. It would be carbon at 500 degrees. Porridge work a bit like napalm, it sticks to you which is why you are scolded. Though a high corn flour slime would be much worse or just caramel.

[@torso99]

i was thinking ceramics or something simular aswell... i gues if they allreasy built it .. it must have been brainstormed allready..

[@insAneTunA]

And maybe most importantly, there is no valid argument or excuse for the haters to have any complaints, because it is not toxic at all, it can't explode, it can't catch on fire, sand is an inexhaustible source of material, it doesn't require huge transports, it is cheap, it is a relative simple and very reliable technology, and it can be build quickly without any major permits or major building restrictions. I mean, what's not to like. A huge Thumbs up for the people in Finland who came up with this brilliant idea and made it to a realistic project.

[@maramnikhilreddy424]

Which sand is the most important question. Because, excess sand excavation damages the ecosystem. Desert sand is suitable but i think there is no desert in that country.

[@insAneTunA]

@@maramnikhilreddy424 Only sand that comes from your yard and under your house will be used. I talked with the people from this project, and they all agreed with it.

[@user-uv2yl6cm4c]

​@@maramnikhilreddy424 river sand might be the best idea.

[@scdbpc965]

We need this so badly in South Africa as we have loadshedding every day up to 9 hours a day. Will definitely send this video to our local government. Well to Finland for using nature to sort heat. In South Africa we have so much sun but electricity is chaotic and serious problem for us

[@bartin7427]

What you need in South Africa is a non-corrupt Leadership. Leftism combined with corrupt elites fuck up South Africa.

[@AntonySimkin]

Attach info about hot Iceland has the cheapest kw/h. They just use geothermal. Heating sand and using the same geothermal machines will do the job. The solutions are here and well developed. Just combine sand+sun+wind+geothermal and you are done.

[@WRossWilliams]

Sherri, the applications for this in South Africa, is beyond anyone's imagination at this time. The load shedding situation is mostly a result of the government's VERY poor management of Eskom. Your comment is an excellent example of how this "news" article leaves so many key aspects out that even educated and thoughtful people have no basis for understanding how this can fit in broad scope applications

[@elivegba8186]

@ProjectsBlack yo😂😂😂😂😂🤝🤝🤝🤝

[@ayajparahinog9168]

It's time for Africa to use its own natural resources!

[@blairhakamies4132]

Residents of Finland are truly a source of inspiration. 👏

[@benmcreynolds8581]

I love creativity like this. It's strange, weird. Out of left feild ideas like this that truly do change the world

[@ash_pro_2000]

I wouldn't try to convert the heat stored in these sand silos into electricity - that would entail loss of energy along every step of the way (boiling water, turning steam turbines, etc). Since there's a big demand of heat energy anyway, using it to heat homes in the local community would be ideal

[@ssoffshore5111]

And how to distribute that heat w/o significant losses to all the homes?

[@ash_pro_2000]

@@ssoffshore5111 Not an expert here, but I would think a district heating setup with well insulated pipes going into individual homes would help reduce heat loss along the way

[@simhedgesrex7097]

@@ash_pro_2000 Yes. So you save money by not generating electricity, but you spend money in having to fit district heating systems. Swings and roundabouts. And, of course, you can't run your TV, Fridge, Computer, lights from a district heating system, and you can't charge your car from it. Pros and Cons.

[@ayoCC]

@@simhedgesrex7097 Countries like finland and germany already have systems to distribute heat generated from industry to homes through water pipes. American cities use Steam instead, which is more dangerous.

[@simhedgesrex7097]

@@ayoCC Yes. I was talking in a UK context, which has very few such systems (more's the pity).

[@theraven26780]

@2:10 "VOMIT HERE" 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@f0xygem]

And now finally some good news for a change!

[@TheSchiffReport]

So the solar energy generated in say the Sahara desert can now easily be stored in the widely available sand , no need for expensive batteries...I am already dreaming here....

[@FrancisP331]

But it requires massive grid connections to distribute it back to the city, which is currently lacking, not only in Africa but in many parts in Southeast Asia

[@kingranchlampasas]

What are you going to do with heat in the Sahara desert? You never need it there.

[@eastcorkcheeses6448]

Ok , Ireland has stacks of data centers , which produce lots of low grade heat ...especially in summer , this seems like a great way to store it for when it's needed .. no shortage of sand either ..

[@KirbyZhang]

this doesn't help to storage waste heat; it needs electricity to reach high temperatures. you need really cheap electricity to burn it for heat not to mention storage it all year round.

[@kevinwillis6707]

@@KirbyZhang plenty of wind power in ireland.

[@bobsnabby2298]

Datacenters don't produce high temperatures.

[@rkan2]

@@KirbyZhang You could still use it for district heating. There are also many large datacenters in Finland, but more often than not they don't integrate their facilities to the district heating systems. Google has the largest facility at about 100MW located not too far away from a city and the could easily pump 60C+ water from it with heatpumps

[@KirbyZhang]

@@rkan2 they would need a second loop to cool the water in the summer, and maintain the whole thing during both seasons. to reach 60c you'd need direct water units on all the IC's, no easy to maintain air cooling can be used

[@danielwhyatt3278]

I’ve never heard about this technique before, which is a surprise because I’m really interested in green energy and long-term energy storage. It does seem pretty simple so we should really be trying to rule this out in other countries ASAP.

[@musicalpocket]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/b5msiayiYr2Eabc !

[@JamesBideaux]

the "Ivanpah Solar Power Facility" in California uses a similar system, except it also creates power from the heat saved in the sand.

[@stevec6427]

This tech has been in use for over 100 years

[@tis_phil]

the Romans did similar

[@toddsterling4949]

@@tis_phil yes this is being dressed up as new, so the morons have another fake green energy product that will replace oil and gas!!

[@bobogogo4611]

But how efficient is this Sand System ⁉️ Output energy/ Input Energy, that matters more ⁉️

[@nobodynobody6111]

efficiency is irrelevant, is energy of rich countries that want to waste his money to feel they are green

[@johnjames4681]

I had economy 7 brick radiators back in 1998 in my first flat.

[@zedzed1046]

🤣🤣🤣

[@oakbellUK]

I still have 'em. Insulated house. Works great. No radiators or water to worry about, no gas standing charge, no risk of gas explosion, no cost of replacing the boiler, no boiler service charge.

[@kayouellette2856]

Thank you free thinkers of Finland!!!! Absolutely brilliant!

[@averagebeastt3606]

Finland: Breaking New Technology.. Sand Powered Batteries. Sahara desert: Wait, that's illegal!

[@Phill0old]

Did he just ask if a sand battery, a storage heater, can store electricity? Is he off his meds?

[@timmurphy5541]

It's just about whether the heat can be converted back to electricity with an efficiency level that's worthwhile. Not every country has district heating systems.

[@Phill0old]

@@timmurphy5541 It can't be done.

[@zaatas]

@@Phill0old You know how turbines work right? With steam. This sand is hotter than steam. You could absolutely power a turbine using heat from the sand. But it would probably be terribly inefficient. It can be done.

[@Phill0old]

@@zaatas I meant it couldn't be done sensibly. Of course I could use solar to power a turbine to make water hot and then use that hot water to power a steam turbine to make electricity but I wouldn't. They would need a redesign to make electricity also.

[@Phill0old]

@@zaatas Also he said store not make or generate. The report was garbage.

[@sjladuke75]

Phenomenal development- utilizing an old plant to manufacture a long lasting sand battery for use in heating residential applications is brilliant. The idea it's non toxic, inexpensive & relatively easy to produce is genius. Hopefully this technology can be applied to electricity storage as well.

[@MiSt3300]

We need that in Poland, we have, just like Finland been cut off from Russian gas, and good riddance, but we need an alternative.

[@tomasviane3844]

Finally, we are open to creativity again! That's one advantage of quitting the cheap oil addiction!

[@rayleeaustralia]

That's a brilliant idea. The biggest household cost is heating the home

[@geeksworkshop]

In hot countries it's the opposite

[@josephc.9520]

@@geeksworkshop Hahahahhah Ikr but statistically speaking he's not wrong, on avg largest cost is heater so...

[@NewMusicWeekly]

...and the body for hot showers. And washing clothes.

[@JOHAN_PERJUS]

There are previous examples of heat storage solutions using sand in Sweden, but on a smaller scale for private homes. Basically creating a large volume of fine grain compact sand, then heating it with solar panels on the roof during the summer then pumping water through this great mass of stored heat during the winter. This works because the greater the mass the smaller the heat loss.

[@tomektomek9836]

well dont lie about „no loss” battery, ofc theres going to be a loss, just not that important in genaral

[@AndorranStairway]

“Hey I know we’re doing a story on sand batteries, but let’s film me in a swimming pool”

[@WRossWilliams]

I would love to see some numbers regarding the melting point of this builder's sand. 500-800C is too hot for regular steel containers, as well as molten salt systems, which operate in the 150C-500C range. If deep, engineering, and physics level review confirm that this system works as simply as the article says, then the applications for this can be world-changing. And, for 75% of industrial heat applications, the heat needed is less than 400C. I've been studying various Thermal Energy Storage technologies since the need became apparent in 2008. The applications are nearly endless, including the thermal desalination of seawater.

[@richardstubbs6484]

Sand melts at 1700°C

[@w0ttheh3ll]

Blast furnaces are made from steel, even though they have large amounts of molten steel inside. The trick is to use some thermal insulation (that you are going to need anyway if you want to store heat over months).

[@kingranchlampasas]

@EE I've read 10 articles and am failing to find details. Just lots of wild claims like it can hold the heat for MONTHS and I'm trying to figure out if they're using an adiabatic container or any kind of insulation or actually have the sand sitting right up against the metal outer container. You're saying they heat it from the core, can you point me to this information. Thanks.

[@maxpower1337]

There's is all ways a trade off with energy production if the Fossil fuel industry gets fazed out to quickly the economy will flounder it is in my opinion something people don't talk about when they talk about green energy it's very complex.

[@WRossWilliams]

@@maxpower1337 It's nice to hear someone who considers the whole system rather than more "technology" pitches Certainly, petroleum is a huge portion of the global GDP, And, petroleum distillates are still critical in applications like aviation etc, but Shell, and friends have been planning, writing and disseminating media that is carefully written to avoid any reduction in Petroleum consumption and is now embedded in all sides of the climate advocacies. But there is a tremendous necessity, for thermal energy in applications like water desalination, the need for which is expanding daily. It's a whole system, and there's enough for everyone if we can get past the "technology" obsession, and start looking at "What needs can we fill with this type of storage?

[@Blakeneyd]

Great idea, great news! Also it’s rare that I notice camera work in a news segment But this was beautifully shot bird from the pool shots to the drone work around the silo, it was visually gorgeous.

[@HL65536]

that is actually genius, in contrast to other "revolutionary" ideas that are actually bs (like diamond battery). Sand is porous so you can just vent air or steam through it so your storage medium is also the heat exchanger. Next: Put the sand underground, let it get to 15°C (=ground temperature) in winter, use as air conditioner in summer.

[@richardstubbs6484]

This sounds good for cold climates. There is no one solution, no "magic bullet" , lots of different technologies can work , as long as they are well thought out and well engineered . Where it's sunny : use solar , Where it's windy : wind turbines Mountains and rivers : hydo Estuaries : tidal turbines Etc etc ...

[@ThamizhanDaa1]

this is for storing energy, not generating

[@JoeyBlogs007]

3:51 Don't quite understand this question of, "Can it store electricity as well as heat?" The sand battery is not meant to store electricity. Obviously its electrical energy conversion is less efficient than a regular Lithium battery, however it's not meant to be a regular battery. It's a heat storage unit, usable as a heat discharge unit or for electrical conversion via steam turbine etc... ( all be that less efficiently than a regular chemical battery ).

[@VitalJeevanjot]

Hold On! I heard people used sand to build homes/rooms, etc. for the same reason in the past. Shouldn't that be credited as well ?

[@containedhurricane]

The best renewable energy source would be the inmates in the US. If they can't fully pay for their victims' permanent physical, financial and mental damages, might as well force them to generate electricity by pedaling

[@revoke6639]

Man you'd be a great president

[@LondraCalibro9]

sentences could be in k/w instead of years - problem is you'd have criminals that could outrun the police on a bmx once they got out. but yeah, I like the idea.

[@jesusisgod3014]

Please turn your life to Jesus the rapture is about to take place any moment now bible says “no man comes to the farther but by me”we really don’t have a lot of time left so much bible prophecy has came to life it’s only a matter of time they is going to be hell on earth for 7 years if your left behind believe me you don’t want to be may God bless your soul and I hope you read this message with a open mind🙏❤️

[@TheMajkla]

@@LondraCalibro9 LOL the prisoners would win the tour de France during their prison break

[@Digidoc316]

The descriptor is deceiving; this is NOT a battery in the normal sense. This is a thermal mass storage system that, rather inefficiently, utilizes electricity to heat the sand for later extraction. When converting wind or solar to electricity, there are losses. When heating the sand with that same electricity, there are additional losses. A more efficient system would use a solar trough system. Final efficiency would depend on heat exchanger exposure to the sand as the sand is not moving.

[@b8702131]

Anakin Skywalker disliked this. 🤣

[@GreyerShade]

Mass storage has been around for thousands of years. Why wouldn't they bury it so they're better insulated and lasts much longer?

[@stuartpullar9138]

Interesting that they are using a silo. I thought this technology typically just filled up a hole such as a mine. That way you have extra benefits that the ground around the sand insulates it and you can rehabilitate land and you can put greenhouses on top that benefit from heat transfer to the air. Good to see it is viable in this context as well.

[@GoingtoHecq]

It may have been a silo they had and updated, but there's also I think a good benefit from having built a good silo. Made something that works for other places without hold in the ground. Digging is expensive.

[@kevinwillis6707]

saw an interview with the designers a while back, it is insulated with up to a metre thick insulation, then stays like that for months, lots of housing in finland is apartment blocks with shared heating.solar panels on roof could slowly heat up sand in summer and autumn. they said they would excavate a big hole nearby or even under the new buildings to place the sand. could be under car parks, green spaces, etc. cheap, easy to do, clean, its a win win.

[@TheMajkla]

@@kevinwillis6707 this is amazing. If it's going to work in cold Finnish winters then it should be fine for warmer countries.

[@tokach]

@@TheMajkla for warmer need to store cold from winter months 😊

[@TheMajkla]

@@tokach and air conditioning makers will go bankrupt:)

[@user-uj8og9cm9d]

I thought this story was really terribly put together and completely lacked detail. How does energy go from stored sand to homes? Do you shovel hot sand somewhere? Do you run pipes through the mass of hot sand? I know that if I had a barn of 500 degree sand it perhaps would not be that convenient to heat my home, do I shovel it all over the floor?

[@timmurphy5541]

Through a district heating system which countries like Finland have and cheapskates like us in the UK mostly don't.

[@timmurphy5541]

as above - through a district heating system.

[@user-uj8og9cm9d]

@@timmurphy5541 But what does that actually mean? Like ducts which blow hot air?

[@blobster3]

@@user-uj8og9cm9d there are pipes that transfer hot water between buildings and the heat source. The buildings then use heat exchangers and radiators to get the heat indoors.

[@Iceeeen]

@@user-uj8og9cm9d District heating is usually around 100 celisus. That goes true a heat exchanger in the house. That heats a closed circuit a for water warming the house to around 30 celsisus and that runs either true the floor or wall mounted radiators. Then there is a separate circuit that's used for warm water (usually set at 57c) This setup can be found true most cities in Finland, Sweden and Norway. The thing is today usually the heat is produced with burning waste. So to be able to store energy in the summer and use it in the winter is a no brainer. Problem has been how to get that free energy when needed. Since the globe has hours in the day where we are producing more electricity than needed the best and to be able to store that energy for a cold day is a no brainer. Just follow the spot prices for electricity to se those hours. Outside the cities the most popular option for the last 20? (maybe more) years is geothermal heating. Mostly with a hole drilled down in the ground...

[@maikilreategui1271]

Waaw. That's what I call innovation 💡 👏

[@jesusisgod3014]

Please turn your life to Jesus the rapture is about to take place any moment now bible says “no man comes to the farther but by me”we really don’t have a lot of time left so much bible prophecy has came to life it’s only a matter of time they is going to be hell on earth for 7 years if your left behind believe me you don’t want to be may God bless your soul and I hope you read this message with a open mind🙏❤️

[@Aeronaut1975]

@@jesusisgod3014 People have been saying that for 2,000yrs...

[@mafarmerga]

At 500 degrees C the heat could certainly be used to make steam and drive a turbine. But I am willing to bet that the efficiency of this system (energy in vs. energy out) is very low which means it can only work if there is a LOT of excess electricity being produced.

[@rennyotolinna2863]

I think it is very efficient if it is used for direct use of heat and not to do an additional second, third or fourth conversion steps (heat to steam to electricity, and so on). Not all technologies are good for everything. But the point is to think creatively, and these people are doing it, if it were not the case, many countries, African and European, would have made geothermal energy a great advantage, but with some exceptions it has no influence on the energy tables of the world.

[@mafarmerga]

@@rennyotolinna2863 I suppose the issue is that it is very inefficient to distribute heat (as opposed to distributing electricity). If these heat storage units were broadly distributed (e.g. one per building or one per neighborhood) then yes, a series of pipes similar to geothermal systems could use this stored heat and distribute it to users, but that is a very limited type of storage system and is only useful in the winter months. This would be a lot of investment for an energy storage system that a) cannot be used for grid storage and b) can only really be used for heating buildings.

[@nigelcarren]

I think not painting that battery-shaped 'battery' to look like a battery complete with a nickel button on top and maybe a giant crocodile-clip on top of that complete with a faux red wire poking in through an open window is a wasted opportunity! 🔋 ⚡🤔😉

[@6.5x55]

A modern take on a quite old technology. Solar active heating has been using thermal mass storage for quite a while.

[@rayleeaustralia]

I think the innovation is the tank that can withhold 500 degrees and the solar and wind

[@MINI-ME666]

it is scum and lyes on grate scale

[@geeksworkshop]

@@rayleeaustralia Hehe na they will sell you the special sand you need as well for a good price :P

[@Teddy_bear63]

Why not store excess green electricity as hydrogen? it would last forever , which is much longer than months.

[@ivan_t9n]

Amazing idea! Some questions arose while watching it: (1) How will it affect the "sand mining" around the world - which has proven to be a huge problem by itself? (2) How many times can the same sand be used after depletion? (3) Are the materials used to build the entire system carbon-zero or close to it - middle and long term? (4) In the video it is mentioned that that reasonable size tank supplies the heat for a whole district for some amount of time: Actually how much heat, team and consumption - and not only in theoretical terms? With much ignorance I have on the issue, these modestly are my legitimate, even minimum questions I deem important for a system that looks so promising. If I could invest on clean energy, it would be in the top 3, for sure. Cheers!

[@Snugggg]

I very much doubt it would need high grade silica. I wonder if mining tailings could be pulverized and used instead? the vessel containing the sand and the heating element are likely the only things that would deplete. very unlikely to be carbon neutral to build but I imagine this could be built underground for better efficiency. at the end of the day you really just need a big insulated pit filled with sand with a long lasting heating element and some water pipes running through that can handle the temperature.

[@alcubz2622]

There no shortage of sand except those used in construction

[@ivan_t9n]

@@alcubz2622 Apart from shortage, my question is more related to the environmental cost of extraction of any kind of sand needed.

[@pixelite43]

@@ivan_t9n cant you just get normal sand, from the beach.. its not that hard really.

[@shadowmistress999]

maybe just don't use the sand that people use for building

[@zeldaharris6876]

This is not new - storing heat has been around for ages. This generation seems to think they invested the wheel.

[@silviadumitrescu7509]

How do you keep the heat in the sand battery to dissipate in the environment for months? What insulation is used?

[@TheMajkla]

I read in the comments that the silos are lined with one metre thick insulation.

[@richardtiiird8464]

so where do you get the sand and how do you transfer it. Dredges , lorries . costal erosion etc. clean energy .

[@edmundtrebus4084]

Basically an old-fashioned storage heater. Nothing new

[@hawks9142]

Yeah exactly "we have reinvented a radiator, we hope to patent this technology and have people pay us to use it" they literally stuck a heater in a pile of sand. It's super useful but it isn't original

[@Azazaazazazza]

I like to imagine a world where institutions like the BBC thought we all had enough brain cells to be told the efficiency of storage, the capacity and cost and perhaps even the levelised cost of electricity from renewables using this tech if we were to scale up. Me: Yeah great, but is this just fluff or is it going to solve real economic problems? BBC: What!!? Sand make pool hot!

[@hardwareful]

"without loss... potentially for months" if it's without loss, the storage time doesn't matter. You're not supposed to think about the statements made, that's the trick :D

[@raingoff5839]

I was just thinking that

[@wildonemeister]

If you had a brain cell you would know that people watching TV needs things presented in simple terms to make everyone "understand". To your question: Yes, this can solve certain problems related to energy storage.

[@raingoff5839]

@@wildonemeister not necessarily, sometimes they'll show something just because it has wow factor to it. Could've just as easily got an expert to comment on the efficiency and sustainability.

[@GivePeaceAChance12]

@@wildonemeister so. Are you simple as well? And people poo poo ideas without even serious investigation!

[@nuqwestr]

Heat doesn't have to come from just Solar panels or Wind to be stored in sand.

[@slava-glory-ua8356]

They are not saying heat has to come from those 2 medium only! Isn't it obvious to you that they are using the 2 green mediums which is easily available to them.

[@internetisinteresting7720]

Efficiency less than 20% bro, you try to store 1000w of energy and it only gives back 200w

[@bucketofbarnacles]

@bbc news, I would like to see you analyze this solution in relation to sand supplies running out worldwide due to high demand for cement. The CBC recently covered this.

[@TheMajkla]

Have a look at Tom Scott's video called Are we running out of sand? He explains exactly what you mentioned.

[@bucketofbarnacles]

@@TheMajkla, thanks. I’ll check it out.

[@TheMajkla]

@@bucketofbarnacles no problem, Tom's videos are entertaining and always interesting.

[@IvarDaigon]

This could be an excellent use of all the coloured glass that is never recycled or even ground up building rubble

[@fratercontenduntocculta8161]

Crazy to think that deserts would become valuable, almost overnight.

[@morpher44]

No because you need more than just sand. You need the infrastructure to charge the sand (solar, wind, etc.), and you need infrastructure to exploit the heat such as TEG chips, a low-powered forced-air system to move it around, etc.

[@Inanimohabeo]

I see what you did there

[@user-sg2fw6ze7n]

우리나라가 제주도에 풍력발전기 설치했는데, 전기가 과잉생산되어서 풍력발전기를 끊어서 전기생산을 멈춘다고하잖아. 그럴바에는 그 에너지 남는것을 저렇게 모래를 달궈서 저장했다가 저 열기를 이용해서 밤에 지역난방을 한다던지, 온수를 데우는 전기를 쓴다던지 뭐 이런걸로 쓸수있나?

[@mattinasa2595]

Exactly so

[@tjvanderwalt92]

Another incredible invention. Imagine Africans can come up with something useful as this... IMAGINE.

[@chriswalker4370]

Its a very good idea, simple but effective. However, it only works on district heating systems, which may be common in that part of the world but completely nonexistant in the UK and Ireland for instance.

[@matsnotfat]

Well, it is very simple and cheap, and can be scaled to suit almost any size. With a bit of imagination house builders with developments of several hundred homes could install the sand storage and pipework, and market the homes as having cheap renewable heating available on subscription.

[@jaker3151]

It would be interesting to see some numbers. Like how much energy it takes to charge, how much energy it can hold, self discharge rate etc.

[@bobsnabby2298]

100tons of sand in +500 Celsius, you do the match. Heat holding efficiency is actually irrelevant since the re heating gaps can be maximum of few days.

[@DrJohnnyJ]

On television? In a country in which poor people voted for Boris Johnson because he was "just like them"? KISS.

[@migu250]

@@DrJohnnyJ You id.... Boris Johnson and Finland? WTF? What did you find in common in this coverage? Borisske and Finland and heat recovery and energy reuse.

[@mrgod5139]

They could just make a ceramical graphite heat conductor and throw em into active volcano to generate free electricity with very little maintenance costs

[@la7dfa]

I would love to see the numbers for efficency and loss over time. For Norway I believe pumped hydro is a better solution. But in flat countries the options are not the same.

[@bobsnabby2298]

This system doesn't convert energy to anything, its a direct electricity transfer to heat which is again used as heat. Hydro power storage water is transferred first by pumps to higher altitude and then again transferred using generators to electricity. Every transfer causes big losses, first, mechanical pump efficiency is low, pipes causes losses and finally hydro electric generators are very low in efficiency. All in all hydro storage is poor system.

[@JOSMINCHERIAN]

Multiple Gravity storage system is an option

[@w0ttheh3ll]

Pumped hydro is not suitable for seasonal storage.

[@la7dfa]

@@w0ttheh3ll The dams are only full in early summer. And then its not that much wind here.

[@w0ttheh3ll]

@@la7dfa So if they are full in summer are you going to leave them sitting full, unused all year to get one or two weeks of extra electricity in december?

[@richdobbs6595]

Can it store electricity as economically as heat? No. Carnot answered this question in 1824. In this case, the maximum theoretical efficiency is 58%, but with practical machines you might be able to get 40%. This is really just designing district heating systems with a reasonable degree of security and robustness in an era without inexpensive and reliable fossil fuels.

[@hawks9142]

"World first sand battery" 😄 they didn't invent putting a heater in some sand. I made one of these heaters for my home and have been using it for years now. They're just the first one to make a big heater!

[@TrickOrRetreat]

What kind of sand do you use ?

[@hawks9142]

@@TrickOrRetreat I used sandbox sand because mine is alot smaller and it's easier to source but you can use pretty much anything. Large scale I think desert sand will be the best choice cause of its abundance but you could even use small rocks if needed, anything with a high melting point and a high thermal mass will do the trick. This is a breakthrough in infrastructure doing it large scale. Not a breakthrough in technology

[@Thor.Jorgensen]

How long did your heat keep then, Hawks? Furthermore, was your sandbox automated? Could you hook your sandbox up to a solar panel or wind turbine?

[@TrickOrRetreat]

@@hawks9142 yes I know some german castles used this technology for over 200 years. It's a special stone called something like feltspat, can't spell it properly. But the heat these rooms for 14-20 days every wooden fire they burn. And it keeps a temperature at almost 30celcius.

[@TrickOrRetreat]

@@hawks9142 also know that some places in Finland have 15 tons ovens placed centrally in some old buildings. Also heated up every 14 day.

[@allwheeldrive]

Now we're talkin'. So many rational, clever solutions yet to be commercialized. Let's hope it's all in time!

[@kitcoffey7194]

America, this is what people can invent when they're not worried about going bankrupt because we refuse to have universal health care unlinked from employment.

[@darrengreen7906]

@romeo415 lol 🙄

[@hawks9142]

They literally stuck a heater in sand... this is a common thing. They just made it bigger 😄

[@hawks9142]

@romeo415 lol different type of sand. This can use desert sand which we have alot of

[@steelyspielbergo]

dumbest comment of the day. congrats!

[@Scott-by9ks]

I'm confused, how does it convert the heat back into electricity? At the end the narrator eluded that they couldn't. So if it can't then how is it a battery? Wouldn't that make this just a giant thermos?

[@anthonyvaught1030]

I am too, how can society be so advance we are using similar techniques as ancient people living around the Nile River---to store energy.

[@markrumrey790]

There is a company in England that has a working prototype on the same principal that uses ROCK; which allow for thermal flow through the material easier with less restriction; and say they can run well over 1000c.

[@druunderwood5602]

Planetary battery's.

[@terrykinross1]

Surely no different to storage heaters based on heat storage blocks. The major problem will be the provision of heat insulation to hold back the heat and minimise waste.

[@gizzardwizard1]

Why are'nt they giving more details on the specifics, surely its practically impossible to store heat without loss.

[@vrclckd-zz3pv]

I want to know if it needs to be a certain type of sand. The world is running out of beach sand because it is the only material that can be turned in to glass and it is the best source of silica for circuit boards and processors. Sand from deserts like the Sahara is too fine for use in those applications but maybe it can be used for batteries like this. If so it would be shortsighted to use beach sand for batteries instead of desert sand.

[@yuggsriddle340]

Egyptian use this method thousands of years ago It just got lost in time

[@alexm566]

thousands..

[@nick_0]

Mhm sure they did bucko, any proof of that? What exactly did they power? Sure, they used sand to cook and heat things, but not specifically an energy storing mechanism.

[@nick_0]

@@jesusisgod3014 shut up. please, for the love of everything holy in this world, shut the fuck up

[@Maxtime123]

@@nick_0 sand batteries has always been used for storing heat, not energy. The electricity from renewable sources is converted to heat. Ancient Egyptians have done the same thing but with the use of lightning rods.

[@nick_0]

@@Maxtime123 Proof of lightning rods?

[@glenn26]

Those Finnish folk are the main drivers of change. Thank you.

[@chi-jenyang9752]

If the final demand is heat and natural gas is not available, thermal storage makes sense. However, if the final demand is electricity and natural gas is available, thermal storage is a very bad idea because the round-trip (electricity to electricity) efficiency is very low.

[@musicalpocket]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/b5msiayiYr2Eabc !

[@adrianthoroughgood1191]

In cold countries more than half of all energy used is heat not electricty. They are not claiming it will solve all storage needs because we need to store electricty as well, but it could make a huge dent in the seasonal balancing.

[@JG-mp5nb]

Remarkable achievement!

[@alfredgeorge317]

Interesting.... For generations, my indigenous family has cooked with sand.... To simplify.....they take whatever meat they wish to cook...wrap it in a protective layer.....bury it beneath the sand. Hours later (depends on the amount of meat), they unbury the meat.....dinner served.

[@NeoIntelGore]

Wasn't (believe it or not) sand becoming rare already? Due to concrete usage?

[@onehitpick9758]

Also, I would spend the effort to just drill down deep into the Earth. If you can get past any water and oil layers, there is plenty of heat just a bit beyond. Just a few miles down yields perfect human temperatures year-around, but it is dark and there is radon so you shouldn't actually live there. It's better to just pump that heat to where there is less radioactivity. It is practically limitless.

[@tedmoss]

So you want to tap into the earth's very own nuclear reactor? I worked in a mine where the temp. always stayed a constant 57 degrees Fahrenheit. You don't need to go down in the ground right now where I'm at, it is 106 Fahrenheit outside right now. But you could use the ground to cool your house.

[@funfair-bs7wf]

"can it store electricity as well as heat" ... isn't this question just prooving that the guy who wrote the commentary didn't get involved on understanding the subject ? (sorry for my poor english)

[@Phill0old]

It keeps the heat, for months, without loss? Wow the Laws of thermodynamics and physics don't apply in Finland.

[@Apjooz]

Negligible loss.

[@Phill0old]

@@Apjooz He said no loss, and of course who decides what is negligible?

[@Teddy_bear63]

Why not store excess green electricity as hydrogen? it would last forever , which is much longer than months.

[@paulshafee7798]

Does anybody remember night storage heaters with off-peak electricity? were they filled with bricks/concrete? I was living in London and we had one in the hall

[@rkan2]

This is for storing the heat for months though, off peak boiler heating etc is nothing new.

[@fredo1070]

The BBC reported on the farmers protests in India, but not the current farmers protest in the Netherlands. Wonder why?

[@soewin9784]

Great. Simple, cost effective sustainable solution.

[@GoofyCams]

Come on Finland, and come on BBC. This is barely high school chemistry. How hot an object can get does not reflect on how much energy it holds. Water at 100°C holds 2,5 times more energy than 500°C sand. That took me 2min with a calculator and a pen.

[@NarayanBhandariGulmi]

Yeah, around five times 👍. 4182 J/KG°C is the specific heat capacity of water and of sand is 835 J/KG°C . 😂😂

[@elmerkilred159]

Go take your Ivermectin, you non-mask wearer.

[@sagesarrazine6270]

I'm sure the sovereign state of Finland will listen to the wise words of GoofyCams

[@valevisa8429]

In this case is not about how much energy it holds,but for how long.Water will cool down much faster than sand.

[@mccue2439]

@@valevisa8429 why?

[@ronaldlindeman6136]

To call this a battery or sand battery is wrong. Definition of battery. a container consisting of one or more cells, in which chemical energy is converted into electricity and used as a source of power. Sand can store heat, but that does not make it a battery.

[@loubob21]

Would seem like a better idea to have smaller versions of this "sand Heat Storage" for personal use, because distributing heat to thousands of homes would be quite inefficient. I'll get on it right away.

[@ms.ashland1239]

Now that’s innovation,

[@lawrenceanthony8468]

Oh thank god, I'm Stepping over corpses daily on my way to work because of climate change here in the UK 🇬🇧 and the whole experience has just been truly heartbreaking and horrifying 💔😪

[@birds-eyeview1314]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/aGfCdWhrnZukhZo here is another story.. it's just a matter of time before you'll see problems in the UK as well. Until then, enjoy the high energy prices next winter!

[@rustyyb8450]

Stored at every exiting nuclear power facility are racks of spent fuel. That fuel is configured to produce a minimum chain reaction and so over a long period it cools off. The fuel is yet useful but is not configured be best use in the existing nuclear reactor. That spent fuel is perfect for producing heat at a city heat plant. Back in the 1950's there was consideration for this use. Instead the spent fuel sits being cooled in a pool at existing nuclear power facilities being benefit to no one.

[@ovalwingnut]

A bit off topic.. but the interview-ee's English is incredible! Color me impressed!

[@EmM-ko7mu]

This has been around for soo many years some people heat up large blocks of concrete at night when the gas is cheaper to use the hot water in the day time.

[@joermnyc]

Converting heat to electricity requires thermocouples, and it’s not very efficient. (Spacecraft and the most recent Mars probes are powered this way, (Radio-Thermal Genertor, or RTG) but the heat source is a stack of glowing hot plutonium pucks.)

[@KetogenicGuitars]

In Finland and places like Canada it important to invent the method to store abundant heat and sunlight of the summer for the winter. Wood makes it happen naturally. They have been storing the snow too over the summer so it must be very possible.

[@RikkerdHZ]

Great news! A Dutch guy engineered a basalt battery. The system is heated up by solar panels and stores the energy for months. It’s called CESAR.

[@nandagopaliyengar1258]

A huge underground water tank can store water for months usage and also water is the best heat retainer in the world

[@svrr1x]

And Finnish "Broadbit Batteries" is also great invention. Check it out too.

[@djayjp]

Salt, sand, what's the difference? The former has been in use for decades.

[@AndrewTubbiolo]

@2:07 That middle building. .... To an English speaker that sure looks like it's marking a very special function for that building. I wonder what it means in Finnish?

[@jacquevanlopeznoroff8827]

Lol! The ancient Romans used the term “vomitorium” to refer to the apertures through which spectators would spew forth to (and from) their seats in, say, the Coloseum. Considering general borrowing of Latin in European countries over the centuries, assuming here it just means the dumping or spewing or releasing area of perhaps excess heat or material??

[@eco_logic]

yes you can use the heat that is stored in the sand to drive a steam generator that drives a magnet wheel that generates electricity