🎲🐉 How Thieves Changed D&D Forever: The Controversy of Thief Skills

Until the creation of the Thief class, any D&D character could try to attempt any kind of action, with approval and adjudication by the DM/Referee. After thieves debuted, many players began to think other characters were somehow prevented from attempting the actions described as "Thief Skills" such as climbing, hiding, and hearing noise. I address this controversy, explain why it was wrong, and offer tips for how to make rulings regarding skills in any edition of D&D.
SUPPORT MY CHANNEL
You can support this channel by buying something from my shop in the link below: shirts, hoodies, posters, mugs, and more, all with unique and exclusive TTRPG related designs.
Shop: bit.ly/DaddyRolledA1Shop
- Dice & Dragons Design: daddy-rolled-a-1.creator-spri...
- D20 Patent: daddy-rolled-a-1.creator-spri... or daddy-rolled-a-1.creator-spri...
- D4 Patent: daddy-rolled-a-1.creator-spri... or daddy-rolled-a-1.creator-spri...
- D8 Patent: daddy-rolled-a-1.creator-spri... or daddy-rolled-a-1.creator-spri...
- Pen & Paper & Dice & Minis: daddy-rolled-a-1.creator-spri...
TIMESTAMPS
0:00 Introduction
1:45 Topics
2:30 Thief Class: Brief History
4:45 The Problem with Thief Skills
5:30 Addressing the Controversy
10:55 Renaming Thief Skills
17:02 Climb
21:23 Remove Traps
26:48 Hear Noise
31:12 Hide in Shadows
35:16 Move Silently
36:16 Open Locks
41;10 Pick Pockets
42:30 How to DM Thief Skills
45:14 Conditions/Environment & Timing
57:38 Wrap-Up
1:00:56 Bonus Content
MORE DADDY ROLLED A 1
Blog: bit.ly/DaddyRolledA1
Shop: bit.ly/DaddyRolledA1Shop
Twitter: bit.ly/DRA1Twitter
Instagram: bit.ly/DRA1Instagram
Facebook: bit.ly/DRA1Facebook
Bluesky: bsky.app/profile/daddyrolleda...
A LA LOUISANE COCKTAIL
- 2 oz Rye whiskey
- 3/4 oz Sweet vermouth
- 1/2 oz Bénédictine
- 3 dashes Absinthe
- 3 dashes Peychaud’s bitters
- Garnish: maraschino cherry
- Glass: Cocktail or coupe
"RUN STOP AND DROP!! (THE NEEDLE)" BY THE PRESEVATION HALL JAZZ BAND
www.discogs.com/release/11190...
If you're into vinyl, you can follow me on Discogs to check out my collection: www.discogs.com/user/tartinm

[@vidgrip8622]

When running OD&D, I classify most challenges related to thief abilities as either “easy” or “hard”. If the challenge is “easy”, thieves succeed automatically and others can succeed only by rolling d20 under the appropriate attribute. If “hard”, thieves must use their % chance and other classes have no chance at all. Another difference regards the consequences of failure. For a thief with appropriate tools, failure means the realization that "this challenge is beyond me". For others, failing means falling damage, triggering the trap, etc.

[@PsyrenXY]

You can do this in 5e also - granting automatic success based on class while others need to roll, or certain classes get advantage etc. Baldurs Gate 3 does a fantastic job of showing new DMs how this can work in play

[@MidlifeCrisisJoe]

@@PsyrenXY Uh, where does this come up in BG3 outside of the occasional bit of dialogue (where even then, you often still have to roll a check if you make a character background choice)? Because I've had to roll for success every time I pick a lock or disarm a trap with Astarion even though his skill expertise guarantees a success on most locks unless I literally roll a 1 and get the automatic failure. I'm not sure what you're talking about to be honest.

[@iantaran2843]

Pretty much my rule of thumb for every edition.

[@kolardgreene3096]

​@@MidlifeCrisisJoeyeah, I feel like this is looking into dialogue options related to class and race a little too closely

[@AlexBermann]

​@PsyrenXY BG3 is a good example of how not to do it. A common situation is to have a check being a DC of 2 and Astarion failing it despite having expertise due to the common critical failure house rule. It is no big deal in a video game where you can just reload a safe when RNG screws you over too much, but on the table, it would be quite frustrating.

[@nicklarocco4178]

I read an article a long time ago about thief skills that basically said what you're saying here, and I loved it. Thief skills aren't ordinary, they're preternatural. As you say anyone can hide behind a curtain, but a thief can hide in a shadow (possibly cast by someone they're following). I think the more mundane skills like pick lock and pickpocket serve to water down the more supernatural abilities. I'd probably rename, and maybe repurpose skills thusly: hide in shadow becomes Vanish into Shadows, you can use it even while being observed (though if you don't move people can figure out where you are). Move silently becomes move without sound, no clinking coins or scuffing footfalls, no sound at all. Scale sheer surfaces becomes Climb Anything, simple, evocative, gets the job done. Find and remove traps becomes Trap Sense, it's more of a passive skill or a spidey sense the dm can toll on secret and see if the thief gets a bad feeling about a chest or door, even if not explicitly looking for traps. Pick Locks becomes Unseal, and it can work on anything that could reasonably be separated from its whole, not just locks. Pick pockets becomes Steal Anything, again simple and evocative, but when the thief asks "can I steal his hope?" The answer should be yes! The thief can steal even non-physical things. Hear Noise seems fine because everyone gets a base chance to do that, the thief just gets better at it.

[@retro_crasher]

Love the idea of steeling hope. Be aware of Hadar the hopeless, rumors say where ever he is, the kingdom will hit a stroke of bad luck and falls into despair. Little does the party know he is the one steeling hope from rival cities as a plot for revenge against a group of monarchs.

[@jeremymullens7167]

I don’t think pick lock needs to change. An unskilled person is not going to pick a lock in a stressful situation quickly. Old school DnD had a different view on role play. The fighter could practice picking locks but he’s acting outside his role and now needs to pay a hefty price for level ups. The fighter doesn’t pick locks because he’s specialized in combat and spends time training. Military skills are wide and varied. PC fighters take on command usually. Sappers and demolition are NPC’s and hirelings. The thief specializes in be quiet and opening locked things. It’s why they don’t fight as well as the fighter. And they need less armor. You play the role. How you approach should be different depending on your class. The fighter will smash or cart back to town. The thief will attempt to pick. I would allow a thief to train on a failed box they found and give auto success on level up. Other people picking locks doesn’t fit the class system of DnD. It fits better in skill based systems. It’s the problem with later editions adding skills to the game.

[@nicklarocco4178]

@jeremymullens7167 but if you're assuming a medieval setting one could assume most locks are warded locks, not tumbler locks. And wardrd locks you can literally open with a stick that's shaped correctly. But I take your meaning. I assume a more fantastical setting, so the thief should be able to do more fantastical things than just a burglar.

[@jeremymullens7167]

I agree with a lot of what you said. However, fantastical doesn’t have to mean supernatural. The thief does eventually get access to magic. The way I see DnD in the old school game is (1) the setting is only quasi medieval. There’s a mishmash of time periods and just invokes the feeling of fantasy. There’s plenty of old west and even sci fi elements. I do think each DM can run their table and setting with elements they like though. (2) I see level 1 PC’s as mostly normal people. The fighter is just a slightly crazy war vet with slightly higher fortitude. A magic user only has a single spell at their disposal. And the thief is incompetent at most actions they try. Just a slightly more skilled average nobody. I see the fantastical come out a bit later for PC’s. You can do feats of strength as a level 1 fighter but your not Conan the Barbarian until at least a few levels in. The same goes for the thief. They eventually gain a fantastical ability to hide in shadows boarding on supernatural. However, at the start it’s not all the impressive. Most thief skill can be explained by techniques and tools. Especially since they have a low success rate. They aren’t completely quiet. At later levels they are perfectly blended to shadows and utterly silent in movement. This is fantastic but they don’t start there.

[@cavalier973]

I would add that the thief does these things (usually) in a dungeon-the mythic underworld, where the environment itself is working against the PCs. The thief’s “hear noise”, for example, is not the same as “listening for noise “. In the latter case, a PC tells everyone else to hush, and presses an ear to a door for ten minutes. A thief can “hear noise”; that is, the goblin band is planning an ambush, but a thief (the DM would make the roll) has a chance to overhear the goblins, hissing, or drawing daggers, even over the noise of the fighter’s clanking armor.

[@retro_crasher]

Some of my themed theif abilities; pickpocketing, wall running, building climbing, parkour(rolling safely and traveling building related movements such as safely falling and maintaining momentum from jumping from a roof), misdirection, replacement(indiana jones), disapear in the crowd, speed disguise/speed dressing, misdirection, reverse pickpocket, feight death, body replacement(ninja log), smokescreen?( without coughing or getting lost yourself?), tiger climbing gear, grappeling hook, theif's intuition(spider sense), cunning reflexes, theif's luck?(like hidden pockets with coins save your life), theif's mark(ability to track and target individuals by tracking them with a hidden insignia/mark/smell(like putting a small red ball of ink that you can track with a trained animal or tool like magic ink or a black light), embrace the dark(ability to see and do tasks in the dark better than if you were not trained, such as recognizing footprints better/ being used to lower sensitivities of light like a foggy night of a new moon), trained underwater stealth(scuba/ snorkeling training, so you can hold your breath longer and or do tasks most can not while using a 1-2 foot snorkel), eye for quality/worth, deceitful counterfeiting, scroll hacking(ability to cast spell scrolls your class can't as long as you can read the language, and have trained in magic to some degree), espionage, callout specialist( hand sign language for complicated hand signals, blackops style), and shadow trailing( ability to hide exactly behind someone, looney toons style). Here is what I came up with before reading the comments!

[@ar3klis]

I recently encountered the lineage of the "skills as class-bound abilities" in studying the sword world rpg. spellcasting is a separate skill for separate spellcasters, everyone can try to hit stuff with a stick, but only martials can do that with modifiers, everyone can try to hide, but only scouts have the proficiency to do that consistently well etc

[@bobbycrosby9765]

For finding traps, I just treat it as a "passive" finding. My reasoning comes from a section of one of the books you read: player characters are moving slowly through the dungeon and it actually takes quite a bit of time to move from room to room. Therefore, the thief, trained in detecting traps, will be more likely to just naturally find them as they slowly and carefully move about. Players can still explicitly point out things they want to search. Edit: one thing I've taken from Dungeon Crawl Classics is the idea of a "trained" vs "untrained" skill check. A thief makes pick pocket check using a D20, a non-trained PC makes a pick pocket check using a D10.

[@garland336]

I don't usually get into long form discussions about topics like this, my attention span is a bit too short. But that said, this was engaging and easy enough to listen to, which brought a lot of info on the history of the debate in a more real and meaningful way than just 'more internet hyperbole'. Thanks

[@daddyrolleda1]

I am so happy to hear that, and I truly appreciate that you took some time to write a comment after watching the video. That really means a lot. Thank you!

[@CapnSnackbeard]

I call it "Shadowcraft" in my game. It is a collection of skills one learns from one who practices it. When they practice that during downtime (advancement time), they have no time to practice Alchemy, Arcanism, Woodcraft, ot other skillsets.

[@muddlewait8844]

Great name!

[@Game.Master.Allen83]

Try these names for thief abilities: Filching - Pickpockets Unlock Secrets - Open Locks Trap Sifter - Find/Remove Traps Silent Steps - Move silently Shadowmeld - Hide in Shadows Eavesdrop - listen closely Scale Surfaces - Climb walls Decipher Script - Read language

[@ebrim5013]

This discussion reminds me a lot of the “skills, tools, time” article (it’s now in volume #4 of Knock! as well). So if you have none of these or only one, you just can’t do the thing, if you have two of these then we put it to dice, and if you have all three you just do the thing. I love this rule of thumb and use it as my default in adventure games. Finally, I love the idea of taking a pass at renaming some of the thief skills to make them sound more flavorful at least and make them more distinct.

[@someguy403]

I used to not like the thief class because I thought it took away from the other 3 classes but after I read a few blog posts about the thief abilities being supernatural abilities, the class made a lot more sense. Anyone can hide, move quietly, or climb but only the thief can hide in shadows, move silently, and can climb sheer surfaces. So, in my mind, thieves would be allowed to auto-succeed on the mundane actions and the thief abilities only come into play when the feat is particularly difficult, requiring skills that are beyond normal men. Then thieves are not as weak as they first appear and the other classes can still attempt the mundane versions of the thief abilities so they don't lose anything either.

[@PetalsandGems]

In keeping with your ask: I would rename the whole of thieves' skills to "Cunning Knacks" or something what similarly conveys that these are weird talents one has learned under conditions of high pressure, and they let the class "see what mortal men can't see, do what mortal men can't do". I would then do the skills as something like this: "Defeat Mechanism" in lieu of pick locks and disarm trap "Detect Concealed Threat" in lieu of listen and find traps "Deceive Magic" in lieu of use magic device "Vanish and Appear" in the Batman sense, in lieu of the stealth skills "Les Parkours" or "Acrobatic Traversals" in lieu of "climb walls" "Encode or Decipher Message" in lieu of theives' cant and deceipher script I would steal Slight of Hand from 5e in place of Pick Pockets, with strong reference to the Penn & Teller breakdown of the seven parts of stage magic for what that means. (Shoutout to Treantmonk for that one.) And since we're talking about clearing up stuff the thief can do that other people can't, I would also rename Backstab to something more clearly about using unfair conditions in one's favor. Something like "Press Cruel Advantage." I might also invent more thief-esque feats or ideas to take advantage of other tropes about theieves, spies and scoundrels, and structure the class to pick from those like the magic-user picks spells. Or like Sly Cooper picks from what are essentially also spells, for that matter. Thanks for your work, and this brain-teaser on my work break. 😊

[@danielrowan4716]

DRa1: I love this particular topic. I play a brewed 1/2e AD&D. I have combined Find/Remove Traps and Pick Locks into the skill Disable Device. It covers all aspects pertaining to the identification, disabling, removal, resetting of traps or opening of locks or even puzzles with a mechanical component. I have additionally combined Move Silently and Hide in Shadows into a single ability = Stealth. As you’d indicated, this ability does border on the supernatural as a thief can perform feats with it other characters cannot. I have also allowed for bonuses to one’s Read Languages ability based on intelligence score - applying +5% for 14-15, +2 for 16, etc. i additionally shifted the use of written magical works (scrolls and spellbooks) from starting at 10th to 5th level, but with a very slime chance of not having it backfire or experience some other misadventure. I thought it was strange that this ability would manifest with a 75% chance of success at 10th. By moving it to 5th it actually encourages some attempt to use it, and provides more of a reasonable narrative as to why the Thief would have such an inclination. I allow for the Strength damage bonus to provide a +5% / +1 damage modifier and a like penalty for subpar strength. Lastly, I developed a tables for failure and success that details possible results for near and far hits and misses on ability rolls. This creates a scenarios where thieves of exceptional skill or with massive advantage can really succeed. Conversely, they can spectacularly fail but that is very rare. Based on how much the thief succeeds or fails by, percentage-wise, will determine the level of success.

[@MrDrako2012]

Under the model of a thieves guild teaching arcane lore, I would give them names as if the guild hides behind an intentionally mysterious facade. "Walk In Shadow" for hide, or "The Dance of Spiders" for climb. It differentiates between a typical attempt to climb and a thieves preternatural ability to free climb. It also allows the their to be cryptic about how they accomplish the things they do.

[@PGIFilms]

19:45 Wow! 😲There's a surprise. I never had the B/X books, only the BECMI books. I can't remember if the BECMI versions had this little "There's always a change" rule regarding skills/tasks. What's fascinating it that this "always a chance" rule in B/X (roll d020 under relevant ability) would be the underlying basis of the 2E AD&D non-weapon proficiency system.

[@angelmanfredy]

This was not an issue when my friends and I played 1e. We also embraced the fact that the often woefully underpowered thief (unless they got a sweet backstab) had abilities special to them. TBH I would not bother renaming them only suggest at session zero to explain thief skills (probably have a handout) so players and potential thieves know how you perceive and use those abilities. Great video. I love the retro-reviews and historical background behind of our beloved game.

[@Gumby-vx7ki]

I started playing AD&D in 1979. I never played a thief because, other than climbing walls, they were incompetent at doing things they were suppose to be good at until they reached 7th or 8th level. I never understood the design intent of that.

[@HappyFunNorm]

Man, I remember climbing to the back of chambers to get behind combat so I could get my sneak attack off. Plus, there were some other racial benefits to Thieves. IIRC, any race could be a thief, and there were higher or no level restrictions for thieves.

[@CaptCook999]

Thieves Picks and Tools. What exactly is in this most important of "Kits" for the aspiring Thief. Most might think of it as a big bag full of stuff. But when you are talking about a Dungeon Delving Thief you have to think about multipurpose, compact devices. A handle with several heads that can be used for various purposes. Skeleton keys and picks for locks. And needle nosed plyers/wire cutters. The list goes on and on. Here's a little twist on the standard stuff and what makes a thief a great Thief. Hear Noise: not just listening at doors but picking out all kinds of sounds. And what better tool for a thief than a "horn", like near deaf people use. A small collapsible horn that can help the thief hear those subtle sounds either behind a door or down the hallway of a dungeon. A simple magnifying lens to inspect locks and anything else you might need it for. But this isn't a high power magnifying glass, just an average one. I could go on but you get the ideas. Now thieves get the short end of the stick here. So what about High Quality Thieves Tools and Picks? A "Quality" set might give a smal bonus of 5%. A "High Quality" set maybe an 8% bonus. And I have never seen a DM give out any kind of magical thieves equipment of any kind. I know that there is some stuff now in 5e but I don't play it so I don't know anything about it. So next let's talk about locks, traps and such.

[@TA-by9wv]

Although I think 2nd edition splatbooks are mixed quality, the complete thieves handbook had some really great optional gear for thieves similar to what you're describing. Listening horns, boot blades, rock drills and putty, vials of putrid scents for animals, angled crossbows with tightropes attached, camouflage, wax paper, smoke pellets, etc. Making this equipment exclusive to thieves guillds also gives great reason to join.

[@MarkCMG]

Thanks for the video! We run games in a similar manner where as if there is nothing at stake, we move along the narrative. Ability checks are the main rolls at my table, out of combat and sometimes during combat.

[@daddyrolleda1]

Great minds think alike! (And, so do ours!)

[@MarkCMG]

@@daddyrolleda1 😂

[@DrPluton]

I started with AD&D, and a thief was essential. We lost more than one non-thief to traps. My gnome illusionist/thief spent plenty of time disarming or springing traps and picking locks. I think 3rd edition is the edition that started making the thief/rogue seem less useful. Most of their skills were made mundane and available to other classes. I currently play artificer in 5th edition, and I can handle almost everything that a thief could do other than backstabbing, picking pockets, and climbing. I do have magic though.

[@Gumby-vx7ki]

Artificers are a lot of fun to play! 👍

[@owenreynolds8718]

That reminds me of how useless thieves were in 2nd Ed. As you say, first you had to pick a gnome or dwarf to have a decent chance with locks and traps. Gnome was good since you got bonuses to everything, balanced out by a big minus to climb walls (which was already pretty risky, so no great loss). And then you had to multi-class into something else that could fight (and multi-classing was so strong back then it was no big deal).

[@SusCalvin]

I almost treated Disarm Traps as an extra save the thief got. Anyone can say that they take a metal wire and feel around inside oddly placed holes for a needle trap. But only the thief can do that and discover a weird residue on the handles as part of their general frisk. It's an additional roll in between you and a save vs poison. AD&D 2e allowed you to place your thief skill points. That's why 2e thieves are all "I'm not that kind of thief" thieves. A thief at low level could be extremely specialised in Move Silent and Hide in Shadows to the point where they had a good chance. Bards were rogues with half skill points at the time, one of my mates decided their bard should be all about Read Language and Listen. They loved kits, and thieves got a few. I ran a dwarf engineer who was a safecracker, security systems architect and general trap bloke who had no idea how to duck and dodge and hide. I'm not a huge fan of pushing magic out to all the other classes. When magic is confined to one or two classes, I can let it be powerful. A street gang needs to hire a down-on-their-luck wizard they bring out for a Sleep or Darkness now and then instead of having ranks of rogues with magic through some prestige class or mid-level option.

[@josephbeckett2330]

One of the things I liked about 3E was how it opened up a lot of class abilities to others, allowing you to build characters with some variety. You didn't have to be a specific class to be able to do something (sometimes).

[@SusCalvin]

@@josephbeckett2330 I am not a fan of builds. We are still iffy about multiclassing. It encourages players to spend more time on background instead of here and now. You can do a lot of stuff as general hobo competence. You can all probably climb a rope, fish with a pole and estimate the value of a ruby. Sir Bob the fighter has +3 better to hit a puritan in a pub brawl but there is no special skill he needs to argue theologgy.

[@zantharian57]

11:00 - Shadowmeld would be a good one.

[@CaptCook999]

Climbing Walls is covered in several of the books/booklets. And it got a lot of coverage in the DMG. Most players and DM's alike forget that the chance of success is not a single roll every time. The thief must roll when halfway up or a certain distance up determined by the DM. A long climb could take several rolls. And several factors increase or decrease the chances of success. Climbing gear such as climbing claws might give you a bonus. That bonus might depend on the surface of the wall. If the wall is slick with slime the claws will really help. But they won't help quite so much on a rough surface that is easy to climb anyway. Modifiers for equipment are the purview of the DM and their judgement of the situation. Climbing is slow. So it is not as I've seen in some 5e games where a thief climbs up a wall, scurries sideways and jumps onto the back of someone in the middle of combat. Sorry but that just isn't going to happen in any decent game run by a decent DM. Now if a thief already climbed up a wall and over a doorway, they could stay there, for a while, before jumping onto someone coming through. A good plan if you expect someone to come through the door, that's for sure. Now I can't think of any rules for it but I would think that a thief climbing a rope might get a bonus to their movement as this is a skill that would be taught in the Thieves Guild. Quick and quiet up the rope and onto the balcony, pulling the rope up behind you. The makings of a good second story man. Well that's all for now but I may rant on later if anyone can stand it. Man do I love playing thieves!!!

[@michaelmorrissey5631]

Great video! Gavin Norman also reworked thief abilities as an option for B/X-OSE and described them similarly, ie what the Thief is doing is essentially supernatural when moving silently. Other characters can attempt to move “quietly” but that is not the same as moving with “complete and utter silence”, which is very cool and thematic.

[@owenreynolds8718]

I feel like the thief flavor of 2nd Ed, AD&D is in the old Dragon Magazine cartoon Fineous Fingers and the computer game Wizardry. The Hear Noise skill was to listen at a thick heavy dungeon room door to get a hint about what sort of monsters were there. As you say, Pick Locks was about opening a chest without smashing it so hard it broke things inside (and most chests were either stuck to the floor or very large and heavy). Move Silently was to get close enough for a surprise backstab. And of course Climb Walls was all about dungeon or castle walls -- getting to the other side of a 20' open pit to tie a rope, or climbing up the wall and into a window to open the gate. My recollection was the strength Open Doors roll was to be able to kick open a dungeon door fast on the first try, so you had a better chance of busting in to surprised monsters. The card game Munchkin harks back to that, as the action part of a turn starts with "kick down the door". Oh, those spikes that anyone could use to climb out of a pit? A hammer and pitons/spikes were standard dungeon equipment back then. You were expected to use them to secure ropes in all sorts of places, or like mountain climbers to go up walls slowly, or even to hammer in door cracks to keep monsters from coming through. That passage seemed more like a reminder that the players always have pitons.

[@MidlifeCrisisJoe]

It's incredibly sad that people don't even know what a hammer and pitons are for these days. They used to be, at least up until 3.5, considered essential equipment. Along with a 10-foot pole and rope. Lots and lots and lots of rope. Always bring rope. You'll never know when you'll need it, but you know you'll need it.

[@AlexBermann]

I always find the idea that it is hard to open a chest without destroying what's inside weird. If your dungeon equipment includes a hammer and pitons, you can chisel the lock open - and even if you just chisel in a small gap, a crowbar can do the rest. Other good options for everyone include a drill. It's almost as if people forget how to use basic tools.

[@spartaninvirginia]

I like how White Box FMAG handles thief skills. Anything the Referee thinks would be a thief skill, is. It makes it harder to codify, of course, but I like it.

[@jtjames79]

The founding fathers of the United States were actually worried about the Bill of Rights being used to imply that anything not in it was against the law.

[@williampalmer8052]

I think a lot of this is a case of misplaced "common sense." For example, you might think that, of course your character can "hide," but that's not what the skill is about. Take a typical dungeon room: a random orc approaches, suspicious of intruders, and the fighter, mage, and thief all say they're going to hide. The orc looks around and finds the fighter behind a big wardrobe, the mage under a table, but no matter how thoroughly he searches, he might never find the thief. He never gets to "take 20." Open Lock doesn't mean that you know how to use basic tools on mundane padlocks, but that you can find, figure out, and overcome whatever weird mechanism you encounter, using skills known only to thieves. Listen means that you can gather useful information about what lies behind a door: how many, where are they, what else is in the room, etc. Not just "Hey, I hear sounds... See, I can listen too!" The list goes on. But fundamentally, the issue is that all classes have unique abilities, and that is the nature of class-based games. Otherwise, why single out thieves? Why can't everyone track, make traps, brew potions, train for extra damage with favored weapons, etc. etc. ad nauseum? Because those are called skill-based games, and it's perfectly fine to go play one of them instead.

[@ihatealllife]

I'm working on a D&D-alike where I replace skills with gear. If you want to pick locks, bring thief tools with you. Prybars for stuck chests and doors. Writing implements for forgery, a pole for triggering traps and vaulting, etc. Same goes for weapons, armor, spellbooks, holy items, alchemy equipment -- these are all tools, and any PC can use any piece of gear. What class does is enhance how you interact with certain tools. Experts (rogues) are able to get the most utility out of tools, warriors can get the most out of weapons, and mages can cast spells with magic items (instead of just gaining passive benefits). This prevents build traps -- players aren't stuck with options you chose at character creation. PCs either gather intel or make educated guesses about what gear to bring.

[@SusCalvin]

I usually play fighters that way. All fighters are competent with all weapons. You bring the right weapon for the right situation. A fighter can pull a dagger in an alley, smack a fool with a bottle in a pub brawl, snipe someone with a crossbow from across the cathedral tower or charge in with a kalashnikov. My friends made a system where everyone can attempt things with a d20 save. Thieves are +2 better at this. I think it created very weak thieves. Any old wizard or mercenary can pick doors relatively competently in that system, so why even have a thief along. Lamentations gives everyone 1 in 6 for all skills. Specialists get 4 extra points at level 1 and +2 points per further level. Specialists are a general skill class where all sorts of stuff can be baked into the skill system. I think you could make a hacker specialist or a getaway driver specialist as well.

[@justinblocker730]

It's called Knave.

[@ihatealllife]

@@justinblocker730 It's not the only game that does that, but yes, I did take inspiration from Knave. 🙂 Also Maze Rats. Ben Milton is awesome.

[@flexorlamonticus]

Super helpful! I am designing a rules light ttrpg in Japanese right now with the goal of being able to play short one shots with Japanese friends on the fly (at a party or cafe, etc.), and I'm *definitely* going to put "failing forward" in it!! Thanks for reminding me / codifying it with examples!!

[@redwyrmofficial]

I always loved how undefined the early thief abilities were. It allowed the DM a lot of leeway on how to use them and when they applied. Another excellent video my friend.

[@zanzatbc]

Your channel is an absolute gem. Thank you for your amazing work.

[@daddyrolleda1]

This was a really nice compliment to wake up to this morning. Thank you so much for watching and commenting! I'm really glad you enjoyed the video.

[@oldgrognardsays]

This is great. I published the last video in a series I did on Thieving skills in AD&D 2nd Edition the day after you published this. The part about climbing reminded me of doing the research for the "climb walls" video I did, where the big kicker was that in order to really get how climbing works you have to go to a different section in the PHB (p. 112), then you find not only the rules for the Thief, but everyone else including "mountaineers". Detecting noise is the same mess. You look up the Thief skill and it says a bit about how it works, but to really get how it works (and how it works for non-Thieves), you have to go to page 129 in the DMG, where it tells you other characters can attempt to detect noise as if they were 1st level Thieves. It's cool to see where the different parts of the game came from and what the intent was when they wrote it. Keep up the good work.

[@sststr]

There's a scene in Les Miserables where Javert has Jean Valjean cornered in a side street from which there is no escape. Hugo go on to explain how Valjean had learned in prison the extraordinary art of climbing walls: "Certain convicts who were forever dreaming of escape, ended by making a veritable science of force and skill combined. It is the science of muscles. An entire system of mysterious statics is daily practised by prisoners, men who are forever envious of the flies and birds. To climb a vertical surface, and to find points of support where hardly a projection was visible, was play to Jean Valjean. An angle of the wall being given, with the tension of his back and legs, with his elbows and his heels fitted into the unevenness of the stone, he raised himself as if by magic to the third story. He sometimes mounted thus even to the roof of the galley prison." Then when we get to the scene of Javert having Valjean trapped, we are reminded of this: "Among his other resources, thanks to his numerous escapes from the prison at Toulon, he was, as it will be remembered, a past master in the incredible art of crawling up without ladder or climbing-irons, by sheer muscular force, by leaning on the nape of his neck, his shoulders, his hips, and his knees, by helping himself on the rare projections of the stone, in the right angle of a wall, as high as the sixth story, if need be; an art which has rendered so celebrated and so alarming that corner of the wall of the Conciergerie of Paris by which Battemolle, condemned to death, made his escape twenty years ago. Jean Valjean measured with his eyes the wall above which he espied the linden; it was about eighteen feet in height. The angle which it formed with the gable of the large building was filled, at its lower extremity, by a mass of masonry of a triangular shape, probably intended to preserve that too convenient corner from the rubbish of those dirty creatures called the passers-by. This practice of filling up corners of the wall is much in use in Paris. This mass was about five feet in height; the space above the summit of this mass which it was necessary to climb was not more than fourteen feet. The wall was surmounted by a flat stone without a coping. Cosette was the difficulty, for she did not know how to climb a wall. Should he abandon her? Jean Valjean did not once think of that. It was impossible to carry her. A man’s whole strength is required to successfully carry out these singular ascents. The least burden would disturb his centre of gravity and pull him downwards." It's amazing how such a simple act as climbing a wall can be turned into such an extraordinarily dramatic scene!

[@sststr]

Hugo also dedicates an entire chapter to "Argot", i.e. thieves' cant. A topic that always carries much controversy in the community, and all who care about the topic should go and read at least that portion of the book. It's also interesting in Edward Bulwer-Lytton's "Paul Clifford", published a good three decades prior to Les Mis, he uses, without describing or discussing it, just uses argot all throughout the book and it is up to the reader to know what it means. If you want a good example of it in action.

[@Lightmane]

The problem with the Thief in AD&D is that, like the Magic-User, it's too weak. Chance to Move Silently: 15% (Halfling Thieves with an 18 Dexterity: 35%) Chance to Hide in Shadows: 10% (Halfling Thieves with an 18 Dexterity: 35%) So even if you're a Halfling with an 18 Dexterity, the odds that you'll be able to Move Silently, while also Hiding in the Shadows, is very unlikely. Castles & Crusades made a much better 1st level Thief, and called it a Rogue, which is a more accurate name for the Character. I believe Gary Gygax also worked with Castles & Crusades, when they wrote their 'Players Handbook'.

[@gamervideos11]

Love these vids. Keep them coming!

[@chrisholmes436]

I let non thieves hide in shadows if they can roll under DEX on percentile. Enjoyed the history, especially since Dad and I went to Areo hobbies. Like your ideas on narrative solutions to traps and such.

[@kudaj90]

I think the wording is just fine, but there should be a better explanation. I fell in love in thief the moment i understood how and why they work. I am also copying those mechanics into my own rulebook. There are skills, but thief can boost them to almost supernatural level, like hide in the shadow.

[@epone3488]

I do agree with your thesis that Thieves were using 'class abilities' and that is all fine and dandy. However the Brown book era 'class abilities' should have been interpreted as just 'always on' "tricks" and that works well imo. Interestingly that IS how we played it back in the day. I think because EPT (empire of the petal throne) has some of this RAW and we were familiar with that. A naming (name space) convention would have really help early on. The Assassin class in Dragon Warriors uses this idea making the Assassin more like a mystical "Hassassin" which leverages this old time idea. However I love the Specialist class solution for Rogue/Thief as proposed in Lamentations of the flame Princess; the skills are accessible to all comers its just that specialist can and are better at them and can cause special dedicated rules 'upgrades' when they use a skill (sort of like a 'feat' called a talent for having a lot of skill in a particular area). I do also love simple d6 skill resolution mainly because I dont rely on the game engines subsystems to determine action resolution - normally that would be player description. Only if things are highly unusual or you want to "push" your skill will you need to roll and on a roll of a "6" there are consequences/blow-back. I also really like the look of d6 cubes and dots on the sheet - cause it looks awesome. I like this because it keeps the playing field level. I DONT like percentile skills for Thieves only; either everyone can do these things or no one can. Or they are specialist "Tricks". In the level playing field everyone has skills milieu, the benefit to the thief should be they are just better at that stuff due to specialization. I have a similar innate issue with 'Cleric" as a class too. My main problem is the Cleric as 'heal-bot' is super boring to play (I know some people are used to it and profess love for it but its pretty lack lust imho). If the underlying issue is 'Cleric has to exist because the characters will die without one' then I think its just poor design. I've a long running campaign where there are no Clerics; as a result healing comes from other sources. A Mage which class still exists can be used to 'build' a "Healer". Its a utility option (we also use Wonders and Wickedness spells i.e. all spells are like 5e cantrips which you can 'empower' i.e. cast at higher levels and there is a spell building system to develop new cantrip like spells - in this system, heals tend to come built into the spell effects so the spell does something "and" is doing some targeted minor heal. There is far less "heal all in radius" spells as the only thing the spell does. Moreover, healing potions and ointments are very common, as are 'charms' which will eat a bit of damage until they break (a talisman charm will essentially give one or two temp hit points for dX (normally d4) turns once triggered). There are also road side shrines, standing stones, groves and magic circles which can be 'taped' to provide a heal. This makes being 'religious' in game very beneficial if you want to heal. As does knowledge of sites and wilderness knowledge. Basic healing from skills and toolkit type synergies also exist, so basic primitive medicine is effective to an extent. We also have in our weapon list the Spell staff, wyrd-wand and Oriflame-Orb which need the wizard class to use. The spell staff casts arcane-bolt which needs a to-hit and is essentially a heavy cross bow. The Wyrd-wand is the same but as a short-bow. The Orb is the same as a 'flask of oil' they are in the lists so mages dont have to tote around cross-bows, bows and flasks of oil but get to be more "magical". BTW you might want to investigate www.lulu.com/shop/simon-j-bull/delving-deeper-reference-rules-compendium/paperback/product-21814606.html?page=1&pageSize=4 Its a great clean up of the first three books and other bits and pieces all collated. There is an SRD too here ddo.immersiveink.com. Regarding the Hide in Shadows skills and more broadly into the game as a whole it was really interesting that in The Secrets of Blackmoor - The True History of Dungeons & Dragons David Wesley makes a key observation about how the first Brunstiene game was a success - his key observation was "I had to allow the players ideas to work. I need to let them succeed" The Arneson players and essentially all the early D&D DM's and Players knew prior to 1978 that the key to a good session of D&D was to enable success with consequence sure but success none the less. Hearing this really stoped me in my tracks; they knew this and it didn't make it into the game-books. Thank goodness we now have game history, archaeology and practical-archaeology happening so this can once again surface.

[@AyebeeMk2]

Articles about thieve/rogues are always interesting because the class needs to be thought through before play even commences. Glad to see you not banning them to start with, some DM's do because they upset the party harmony, which has more to do with the DM not controlling the game than the class itself. The abilities a thief has are his way of overcoming the dungeon no different than wizards using magic, clerics using the power of their diety or fighters using brawn. The skill you failed to mention was the fast movement due to lack of armour, looking at ad&d 1 e a 12" movement rate allow your thief to out run most things on 2 legs! Other uses for the skills to; pick pockets = slieght of hand, open locks & traps = fixing mechanical puzzles, move silently = how to create sound distractions, hide in shadows = camouflage (other things), etc. Reading the Players handbook discription of pick pockets allows a 20% of no bad effect on a failed roll; this should be used on all the other rolls too. The other aspect of this class is to give them a high charisma, allowing them to talk their way out of failed rolls too... names: mine; oops; ouch; shhh; boo; aaha, overwego, It says what!.

[@JPanarella]

Outstanding video. It covers so much of what I wanted to know!

[@jacknerdlord3244]

Your engagement ratio is nuts, congratulations

[@daddyrolleda1]

Thank you very much! This one really went off the charts and it's my best performing (first-day performance) video by far since the "Race as Class" video back on September 27th 2023, nearly six months ago. But the video that's really struck a chord recently is the one on the history of Gamma World - that one continues to grow and has the most views of any video (3x as many as this Thieves Video so far, although that's only one day of data but also 3x higher than the video about Gygax preferring Fighters) since the one on August 30th about D&D Iconic Characters and Early Play Aids. But that one is six months old and is only slightly more views than the Gamma World video which is only two weeks old. In any event, something has happened with my last four videos, with each one nearly doubling the first day number of views compared to the one prior, and I'm not entirely sure why because I've not changed anything with regard to my topics or my video/recording style or my promotion. In any event, thanks again. I hope it can continue!

[@UltraDonny5000]

This video coyld have saved me a bunch of research last summer when i was trying to address the issue of skills and the rogues place in my own games. I think if they had abilities worded mechanically like spells but using one or more skills as their check or DC, the class would be able to accomplish its intent and provide fun play experience.

[@doctorlolchicken7478]

It may be really boring but I just used the word “extraordinary” with each thief skill. Extraordinary Climb, Extraordinary Hearing, Extraordinary Hide, etc. zero points for imagination but it works.

[@daddyrolleda1]

Not boring at all - I think that's a very elegant way to handle it without going overboard with too flavorful descriptions that some groups may not like. Thanks for sharing, and also thank you for watching and commenting!

[@kirkwagner461]

This was very interesting. I lived through the earlier parts of D&D (I own and played original tan books back when that was all there was.) However, I was disappointed with rogues (thieves) in 3.5. Perhaps some of this will let me put life back into them.

[@WikiSnapper]

Listening to this, it becomes obvious that the thief was written with a play style in mind. The original authors had an idea that when you were playing, you were engaging with the fantasy world. They then added rules to that world. When a person not emersed in that concept picks it up, they feel like they are interacting with a game. They then approach it as a game, not as a world. This problem is confounded as more people see the world with a set of rules that dictate what they feel they are and aren't allowed to do. Instead people need to approach the game as a world. By world I mean as a truly open place with where the only limits are our imagination. I have found when I write games, I have to be cognizant of omission through inclusion. When you say, this person can do X, to the player you are also saying, no one else can, unless you are specific in your wording to not omit others.

[@andrewtomlinson5237]

I always wanted Thieves to have a "Knockout" ability similar to backstab. One of the most difficult quests any D&D party can undertake is the "Bloodless Break In" where they need to sneak in somewher, grab something, rescue someone, plant something, etc, etc, and get out again WITHOUT killing any of the people inside the building, manyor all of whom may be innocent civilians. There's no rule for sneaking up behind a guard and whacking them on the back of the head, knocking them out, and allowing them to be bound and gagged then dragged to a cupboard and hidden from sight. A note on the bit in the Expert Rules that says a DM should only check for secret doors if the player is searching in area where there is one... NO! Nonononono noooooo. Wherever, whenever a players searches for something, roll the dice. If you only roll dice when something is there, they will know that... even if they don't find it... it IS THERE. And while you might say "Good roleplayers will ignore that..." I'd say that exceptional roleplayers will find a way... Simply rolling the dice will remove any and all temptation.

[@kehlarn6478]

interesting how you delve into this as class vs class ability overlap vs skills. the original argument is "why can thieves do what dwarves do. it diminished dwarves vs other races but spellcasting didn't get given to others in the same manner" in circles I visited. 2nd ed made them orthogonal along with more skill vs ability separation as one of the main revamps.

[@DominiqEffect]

After they make hiding in plain sight ability. Ranger have it too but my favorite version is one of Shadow Dancers.

[@Coramonde97]

I love the rules and feel of the early 80’s D&D I grew up on. They give me a warm nostalgia and still render a sense of wonder whenever I open those ancient tomes and box sets. HOWEVER, this whole concern is a result of the rules set themselves. Nowadays I hold that GURPS 4e does it all more efficiently allowing harmony in skills application and flexibility - making every character unique while still contributing. Also, any character can try anything, just roll against an attribute with a modifier or Skill w modifier or a default penalty. The box set DFRPG distills it all down to just Fantasy genre nicely although I’m not thrilled about the tone of the writing. And for even more efficient old school play ( and faster to the table) use The Fantasy Trip from that era, now flourishing after new release. No more skill problems.

[@StabYourBrain]

I know Blizzard thought of it first, but i think the perfect name for "Hide in Shadows" would be "Shadowmeld" Because that encapsulates what the thief does so well.

[@Dragonette666]

here's my thing on thief skills. I see them as near magical abilities. Anyone can RP looking for a trap and be successful purely by RP. Like if you thought there might be a hidden pit in the corridor , you can search for it by pouring out a liquid. If the pit is there the liquid is going to seep into it. There is no roll needed for this. A thief otoh could just say "I search for traps" and I would make a roll. If the roll is good I would tell him he spots a depressed area in the floor that might be a pit. So to me it's like a Detect spell that isn't magic. The thief has to be in the area and say they look for traps. The others have to be very specific and RP what they do to be successful. Disarms are handled the same way. The thief can just roll for it whereas other PCs would have to specifically explain how they defeat the trap. I see "Climb walls" the same way. Any character can *slowly* climb a wall, tree, etc. A thief's skill is akin to parkour. A good roll means they can go straight up and over a wall very quickly. "Hide in Shadows" is also a near magical ability. Once again anyone can hide. "I get under the bed" "I duck behind a curtain" The thief doesn't need to do that. She knows how to just fade into the darkness and be ignored. If there are dark enough shadows someone could look directly at her and they still wouldn't see her. Of course I would expect them to be wearing suitable clothing that is dark. A flamboyant costume would probably apply penalties. "Pick lock" I know a little about picking locks and I think they have this a bit off. I can pick a padlock with a single pick almost faster than you could open it with a key. But it's not a feat of agility. It's knowing how the lock is designed and how to exploit it. So to keep in theme with "near magical abilities" Pick Lock allows the thief to pick locks that are designed in way they may have never seen before, and they can do it very fast. Check out "Puzzle Locks" on you tube. Some of these locks take a pro a good 30 minutes to open even with the supplied key. I would allow a D&D thief to figure one of these out in a few minutes if they rolled well. "Move Silently" is again something anyone else can try to do. But it requires roleplaying which would include watching their footing to make sure they are stepping on something that would make a noise. A thief does this by instinct or by luck, and could even be able to do it in low light conditions where others would be stumbling around.

[@MidlifeCrisisJoe]

It's comments like this that validate my need to read comments sections. Excellent.

[@danielhooke6115]

13:54 One way to lift the thief class from the mundane to the preternatural (kudos to @nicklarocco4178) (which is what you seem to be suggesting), would be to change the name of the class to something along the lines of Ninja ("one who is invisible") or Shinobi ("one who sneaks"). However, using readily recognisable Japanese names raises the problem of borrowing terminology from another milieu.

[@TheOldDragoon]

Sierra Romeo Delta. ;) Great content, and a topic I had just been discussing with a fellow GM- right down to Darrold Wagner's original treatment.

[@tonycosta3302]

The skills are also tied to limitations on the class. It’s very hard to climb or be stealthy when you are wearing chain mail or armor.

[@daddyrolleda1]

Very true!

[@jasonjacobson1157]

I don't think you mentioned what the DMG says about Hear Noise. The section on Thief skills says "everyone else" can perform this also. Later, in the Listen at Doors (page 60?) section, it says every class has a base chance of 10% which is interesting because that is also the starting skill level for a Thief. Hence, a Thief has to get to level 2 to be better at this than others. Excellent vid!

[@PastorDanplaysboardgames]

Loved the video. I play a dwarven thief. I loved the previous video on thieves and loved this one also!

[@SaturmornCarvilli]

I've always treated thieves in D&D like James Bond. Sure, everyone can drive a car, but few can perform the stunts that James Bond can with one. Thief class skills are mundane but require intense training. So much so, that it can look like a kind of magic to the untrained eye. Especially if the guild or individual thief fosters such a mysterious air (Like ninjas). An easy way to handle other characters performing thief skills is to allow other classes to use some of the more basic thief skills at half the % of a level 1 thief. If they balk at the crazy low chance, that lets players that never play the thief class understand the struggles of a low level thief. Conversely, skills on the boundary of some thief skills I give thief characters both the roll everyone else gets and if they fail that, a thief skill roll as well. So, thief characters can skill fail, but they have a second chance not to. Since they have additional training above and beyond other classes.

[@daddyrolleda1]

All great ideas and very similar to a lot of the ideas I use in the game I run for my daughter and her friends. Thank you so much for watching and commenting! I really appreciate it!

[@beriukay]

I've always thought of thief skills as spycraft. Sure, most people could probably learn those skills, but to actually be a swiss army knife, it takes more than just knowing one or two tricks. It's also tons of honed troubleshooting skills, like, "oh wow, doors squeak. I'm no doorcraft master, but if you grease up the hinges, then that problem stops". That also extends to tricking magical doors from closing, not because of any arcane knowledge, but good old-fashioned practical scientific trying

[@stevenmike1878]

i like the idea that a thief is trained in ways to navigate difficult situations and are in a way super natural. so when they blend into shadows it just good stealth. but when facing infravision they have an ability to control their body temperature or they would know tricks like covering themselves in wet mud to not give off a heat signature. for climbing its super natural in a way but maybe they always have a special chalk to help them grasp smooth surfaces. there movement ability is so refined to simulate complete silence which can only be replicated by magical silence. For thieves opening door ect i use and like this rule In general ALL Dungeon doors are stuck all the time, though creatures can pass through them easily. When a character tries to "Open a stuck Door" he is making a roll for a quick, easy opening of the door. Success means the party has a chance to catch whatever is on the other side off guard. Failure, however, means that whatever is on the other side might be alerted. Several PCs (up to three) can work together to Open Door. The party can try to FORCE/BREAK the door open if the Open Door attempts fails. How long the attempt will take depends on circumstances (what is the door made of? what tools are available?) The Average time is going to be 1 Turn (10 minutes) to bust the door open. But no matter how long it takes, there is NO chance of surprise and more time has passed on the wandering monsters clock that could end in a surprise. While any character with thievery ability’s may use that ability for 1 of the 3 attempts to open a stuck door, Failing a thievery roll does not alert any monsters of the attempted door entry. A thief opening any doors or locks will take 1d6 rounds for the attempt. A party busting open a locked item takes 1 turn but can destroy some items inside like bottled potions, scrolls, ect. Carefully breaking open a chest takes 1 hour for each attempt made, which will not destroy the items, unless all three of the attempts are failed. A thief can always re-attempt to open an UNDAMAGED locked item, the next a day. Most doors will automatically close, despite the difficulty in opening them. Doors will automatically open for monsters. Doors can be wedged open by means of spikes, but there is a one-third chance (die 1-2) that the spike will slip and the door will shut. The party may spike a door shut to prevent any creatures from entering the room. Creatures may attempt to open the door, there is a one-third chance (die 1-2) that the spike will slip and the door will open. The monsters get (up to three) attempts/rounds, after which they would have to Destroy the door to get inside, which will take 1 turn to do, giving the party time to prepare.

[@chakravant]

Yep, I agree about thief talents -- they're special, although with two exceptions. First, listen chance is something *any* character possess, it's x- in - 6 with a reason. And it is specific form of listening, that can detect monsters way before an encounter or hear them through heavy doors. The standard chance of doing that is pretty bleak, 1 - in - 6 for some reason, and only if the rest of the party cooperates and, like, shut up for a moment. Some non-human species have better chances, usually 2 - in - 6 in specific circumstances. Thief starts with that level and upgrades it to "almost impossible to fail" level through the class progression. And yes, this assumes I guess monsters which try to ambush a party, thus they try to not move and talk. That would explain the difficulty, and the fact undead do that without any test -- it's not that vampires don't talk or idk skeletons don't clack when they move, they simply are completely soundless when they waiting in ambush -- they don't have muscles to stretch because they became numb, and they certainly don't need to breathe.

[@abyssimus]

Depending on how serious or silly the players want things, and depending on how much they want light psychic powers, I'd reflavor as either fourth-wall breaking skills ("retcon trap" instead of "remove trap") or psychic abilities ("cloud men's minds" for "hide in shadows"). If they're wargamers who just want to hit stuff in complicated ways, I might just tack "super" at the front of each thief ability just to make it clear that it's not the normal version of that thing.

[@joshuahebert7972]

Renaming a skill or abilty to account for flavor seems like it would be setting specific, which is cool. I like your "embrace the void" example. Players in my old edition games could attempt any action they wanted, and I adjudicated based on ability scores, and if it seemed logical. I allowed Thieves to essentially try actions that I might feel were exceptionally difficult or even logic breaking. Early editions are not so different than 5th edition is currently, lots and lots of GM fiat to cover what isnt explicit in the rules.

[@XXLTupan]

I would just leave the abilitiy names the same, I play a thief in basic and am having loads of fun and it doesn't really depend on the ability names... Searching for room room traps is a 1in6 for everybody... dwarves can do it on a 2in6 much like the elves find the secret doors on a 2in6 and the others on a 1in6 I am encouraged to give anyone that exactly describes the mechanism that is in place an auto success

[@ChuckBarchuk]

Move Silently is different than Move Quietly. The basic surprise roll is essentially a party stealth roll. If the monsters are surprised than the party was "stealthy" enough. If a Thief succeeds at moving silently then surprise is automatic. There's no chance of the monsters to detect the Thief. So in my own games it's possible for the party to fail at surprising the monsters but the Thief still succeeds.

[@andrewlustfield6079]

This is a complicated topic, but I actually think Bandit's Keep, PDM, and Ranger Lemure have really great explanations of thief abilities and how to play one well. Ranger Lemure did a careful reading of the surprise rules and came to some pretty interesting conclusions on the differences between ordinary characters listening for enemies and what makes the thief special---same with the differences between moving quietly and moving silently. Danial from Bandits Keep affords the thief a little more latitude when it comes to open locks and finding and removing traps--and the thief's open locks is very quiet as opposed to busting a door down. So it drastically improves the party's chance to surprise monsters when they show up from places thought secure. As to the argument of how good a thief is at his or her abilities...how good is a first level fighter at hitting AC 20 if your playing 3rd ed? Or how good is a first level fighter at hitting AC 0? Basically a 15% chance on average? How does that compare to thief abilities?

[@SusCalvin]

I try to be generous with thief skills unless they are trying to do something blatantly obvious like steal someone's hat or sidle out of sight in a corridor. What was RL's conclusion, that everyone has a listen chance including monsters? But a thief that Moves Silently can't be listened to. Everyone can still move quietly. And everyone can listen, but a thief's chance to Listen improves. I don't like forcing a divide between room/corridor/chest traps myself. A thief with Detect Traps can detect all sorts of 'em. It's dwarves who get a niche chance to detect room/corridor traps. The "resource" of a fighter is their hp. If sir Bob the fighter loses 4 of his 6 hp in one hit, he will seriously start to consider retreating to the back line. And if they survive the scrap, his player will suggest retreating for the day. You can still keep fighting unlike a wizard who has blown their spell slots but do you really want to with that few hp left.

[@fredstauffer1331]

There are also two other variants I'd heard of over the years... 1. The Thief skills are an extension of already existing abilities of any class. So, for example, you can move silently/hide in shadows that is essentially based on your surprise roll when done deliberately...2 in 6..or 33%... a thief though would have that 33% + their thief skill added so a 1st level Thief would be 43 or 48% without additional bonuses for race/Dex. This would be one example. 2. Would be the 'second chance' option... so, if the thief failed their (every character can) roll, they would have the second roll that would be their thieves skill. So, in the example above, stealth, 2 in 6 fails.... that Thief would get a second roll against their skill table 15% or 10% depending on activity... These are two variant options I've heard of people doing or interpreting. Then, there are some things only a thief could do or some manner of specialization in it. For instance, anyone can try to pick pockets... but, the thief has a particular area of failure such that they can try twice, and being unnoticed even if they fail.

[@fredstauffer1331]

there are other non-Thief examples... for instance, all characters can look for traps, must define where they are searching 1 in 6 chance / 2 in 6 chance for Dwarf searching stonework. Now, using the same as above, you could apply the Thief's find/remove traps to that chance or as a separate one. Also, only the thief could remove that trap or have knowledge of certain more mechanical ones for instance.

[@Conan_Burns]

I just started running ad&d. Love the advice

[@CaptCook999]

Thief skills as you said are more about them specializing and practicing those skills. And anyone can hide. But only a thief can "disappear" into the shadows, blend into the forest and sneak away without a sound or suddenly disappear when they were just right there. Now a thieves equipment is an important factor and I've always thought that certain equipment should give you bonuses or penalties to their skills. Take for instance boots. Soft boots are perfect for moving silently but they have their drawbacks. In a swamp they could get sucked right off. If caltrops are dropped they give little protection to the feet. Hard boots are noisier so moving silently is harder but they give better protection from caltrops and the like. Or the famous hobnailed boots which are good for icy surfaces or stomping on people for extra damage. But silence? Not hardly a chance at that. Now let's talk clothing. Colors are important. A black cloak is good for hiding in the dark or a dungeon. But a dark green cloak is great for hiding in the forest also, even during daytime. A white or grey cloak is much better for snowy places. And your simple brown cloak is perfect for the town where everyone has a brown cloak. Blending in is what thieves need to do to if they don't want to attract attention. One of my thieves had 3 cloaks in his bag of holding for just that purpose. And hats, well it doesn't hurt to have some headgear that either gets you noticed or that blends in with the local scene. And you can hide things in a hat, some better than others. A feather with a needle in it, with or without some "poison" or drug on it as a last ditch weapon. Hide a few picks to get out of those pesky jail cells. Or a charm or 3 for bribing or maybe a magic item like a Qualls Token. So next is about those thieves tools and what really is in that kit.

[@NicholsonNeisler-fz3gi]

Gary Gygax literally stole the Thief class for AD&D

[@jeremymullens7167]

In the locked check back at base example, the rule was 1 try per level. It wasn’t a failure of skill but a lack of knowledge. Subsequent checks were done in the safety of the base rather than taking a turn in the dungeon. You should also be able to hire a locksmith. Might look like a higher level theif. The thief character should have guild support. It’s a great time to develop the thieves guild. The thief is the character with the shady contacts. Instead of automatic success, try complicating. If they have the resources of town, of course they can open it. However, they can to use the resources of town. Gary would have 100% used the opportunity to take the player’s money. He imagined a boomtown where everyone was trying to get rich. The game play was also different. The contents of the chest aren’t NEEDED. You could make opening a chest an adventure in itself. Old school play let the dice tell the story. Surprised was rolled on the monster. Success means the monster was distracted. They could be asleep, playing games or fighting over food. The DM gets to interpret the dice for the situation.

[@trystongilbert1837]

So even back then, people weren't reading the DMG? Just implying mechanics from the player-facing material

[@MiguelAngelSanchezCogolludo]

Oh, this is the first time I see an image of the actual physical copy of OD&D using a font like Garamond or Times New Roman, instead of Futura. Is ita special print? Do you know the date of that print? Is there any pdf version of it? I find Garamond or Times New Roman is a more "readable" font for me,

[@IanBoyte]

Just a heads up, your bluesky link in the description doesn't have the correct handle.

[@marasmusine]

I always liked the "only a thief can do these things" approach, and had assumed it was inspired by The Hobbit (why did the group need Bilbo?).

[@toddapplegate3988]

I always looked at the skill of the thief much like an athlete or artist. Performing a skill was a physical attribute that others could not. Everyone can run but few approach Olympic sprinter.

[@daddyrolleda1]

That's a really great way to approach it. Thank you for sharing and commenting!

[@FoolsGil]

If I was to reflavor the Thief's Abilities, I would start with the Thief Class first. There are "thieves" in the world, but they are at most experienced crooks, con artists, and charlatans. The one true Thief belongs to the one true Thieves Guild, and in it they train your body and mind to become superhuman for mere fractions of a second. For that brief moment the Thief is one with their surroundings and are beyond hyper focused on their current task. Climb becomes Act of Ascent Remove Traps becomes Act of Subterfuge Hear Noise becomes Act of Reverberation Hide in Shadows becomes Act of Shadowstep Move Silently becomes Act of Silentstep Open Locks becomes Act of Unbinding

[@RickMcQuay]

Some players get too caught up on how things were in the beginning. My first attempt at something was never my best attempt, and D&D was no different. Things improve and change with time. And some of the controversy around the thief (rogue) shows that boons and banes are superior to micromanaging skills.

[@williamwueppelmann5982]

Many of the thief abilities are fine as long as you read them literally. Remove traps; move silently; hide in shadows; and climb walls are literally different from disarm traps; move quietly; hide in and behind things; and climb ropes, trees, and rocks. I think it’s the other three that add confusion: find traps, pick pockets and hear noise sound like things that everyone should be able to do. I’d be inclined to just get rid of those skills and replace them with a note that thieves have better chances at doing these things than a normal character would under the same circumstances and leave it up to DMs to decide how that works, based on how they handle these sorts of activities in their games.

[@jarrettperdue3328]

I don't subscribe to the model of thief skills as supernatural; I think that's a modern OSR revision to patch for poor design. The mere fact that the Aero Hobbies proto thief was a dwarf henchman trying to pick a lock with a dagger points to the mundane, rather than supernatural fiction being created (as does the lack of Appendix N antecedents for supernatural burglars or slayers). Martin, do you know of any place where the M-U spell list approach to Thief Abilities is presented?

[@user-go1vr6su4f]

love your stuff played since 79

[@daddyrolleda1]

You started just two years before I did. Glad you are enjoying the channel, and I really appreciate you support.

[@calebcarney1933]

Cool video

[@daddyrolleda1]

Thanks - I'm glad you enjoyed it!

[@parrishmatrix]

I think a fun nod to the origin might be that the feats appear to be magic. Thank you. I definitely want to rename these olso.

[@johnharrison2086]

Seems like in OD&D Dwarf was the Thief class (almost)! I have always seen it as the Thief can just do certain adventuring skills better: Anyone can Hide with cover. Only a Thief can Hide in Shadows. Anyone can Move stealthily. Only a Thief can Move Silently. Anyone can Climb walls. Only a Thief can Climb Sheer Surfaces. Anyone can search for room traps. Only a Thief can find minnute treasure traps etc

[@torikazuki8701]

Although I grew up with 1st ed AD&D (Started RP'ing in 1982 at age 11), I think that D&D 3rd/3.5 did do that aspect better. It's not that other classes CAN'T do certain things, it's that a Thief can do them BETTER. What I intensely dislike is how (and 'Action RPG's' like 'Diablo' are a big part of this problem) Thieves became just another kind of Fighter. Many younger players have the impression that they are every bit the Damage-Dealer that Fighters are, just maybe a bit quicker and more fragile. That's sad.

[@user-wo6bf5ml6f]

Ah the good old backstab versus sneak attack debate in my opinion I think backstab made more sense in some settings and sneak attack and others dirtyfighting makes more sense than others but mechanically they all do basically the same thing in 3rd edition they all add an additional 1D 6 to the damage done by that creature on a successful hit and that d6 and increases as the player character becomes more powerful

[@SusCalvin]

I like "exactly what it says on the tin" skill, spell and ability descriptions. Listen is a skill for... Listening. Sleep is a spell that puts people to sleep. Attack bonus is a bonus to hit wankers. A lot of early editions are strangely worded, so there is room for improvement. I rarely say "between 2 and 12 points of damage" any more. I could decide to add or remove skills depending on setting. When I think about it, a lot of abilities can be above and beyond basic adventurer competency. All adventurers can use the basic functions of a smartphone, but only the thief can force a reset and password change. All bums can drive a car, but only a thief can practice high-speed evasion.

[@noop1111]

DnD needs a mugger class.

[@CaptCook999]

Pick Pockets really should have been named Pilfering. As the Thief is more likely to "Pilfer" something than to pick an actual or figurative pocket. As I stated in another post, I don't steal from other players characters because it is in my opinion bad gaming. I would have to have a critical reason to do it and not for personal gain. Most all of my thieving has been Pilfering items from merchants, treasure chests and the like. Stealing an item from the Barons castle is the meat and potatoes for the thief. Snatching items should work the same way but with different modifiers depending on the situation. A distracted merchant, a crowded market and the thieves ability to look inconspicuous will help with the theft. Stealing right in front of someone is pretty risky business but it can be done with modifiers of course. Now Reading languages is in my opinion a pretty useless skill with little real chance of success until 9th or 10th level(50%). A 50/50 chance to decipher a map is not good. And any decent DM is going to roll it in secret and if it fails is going to give the thief either misleading or outright false information which could lead to disaster. The same goes for reading say a book for clues. If you fail the roll then you could end up halfway around the world before you figure out that you read it wrong. So it isn't a skill that you're going to use very often. The special skill of Reading Magical Writings and Scrolls is gained at 10th level. It is exciting to think that your Thief can now use a scroll of fireballs. Wow! Only a 25% chance of failure. But that failure could be really, really bad! And everyone is going to be pissed off when you set off a 6d6 fireball right in their lap! Now it isn't all bad. A scroll of dispell magic could be incredibly useful and nothing too horrible is bound to happen. So wisdom with this skill is paramount. It will come in pretty handy when you find certain magical writings. Spell books especially since you can see what spells are in the book and sell it for more money that way. And if you have followers or henchmen and are lucky enough to have a magic user, you could give scrolls or books to them to use. Lastly I'll go into Climbing Walls in the next post.

[@DivineBanana]

"shadowmeld" over "hide in shadows" - yea I took it from the Warcraft 3/World of Warcraft night elf racial ability but it sounds more mystical and unique!

[@jeremymullens7167]

Did you miss the ‘listening at doors’ section on page 9?

[@sylvarogre5469]

I'm going to have to watch this later, but I'm commenting for the algorithmic bump.

[@jonothanthrace1530]

I suspect that "Embrace The Void" is a skill in VTM.

[@kyleknickerbocker8650]

I also played it as every class can potentially do a skill, just at a very reduced rate. Say 5% chance of success

[@daddyrolleda1]

That's a good way to approach it. I think a lot of folks ended up house-ruling and coming up with ideas to help reconcile the seeming disparities in the system. Thanks for watching and commenting!

[@chriskirby9408]

Thieves skills had such an effect on me, that I gave up and switched to playing systems that were skill based

[@NeoRaven78]

The same way that you are defending thief abilities is how I defend skills from 3e on. Skills make PC's better at something, usually related to their class. They do not prevent PC's from trying to do something with the single exception of "trained only" skills which totally make sense. Why "old school" players are so against skills boggles my mind. Having a skill system actually helps codify all of the random, unintuitive rules, that even you have trouble locating.

[@tagg1080]

I dont know if you read many of the newer school rules-lite stuff, but you are touching on what cairn talks about. Your pcs strength score isnt a 1-1 translation of their raw strength, it is a representation of their expression of strength like tasks under duress. Rolling against your ability score is explicitly called a save, meaning it is only required because the pc is attempting to defeat the adverse conditions to perform a task they would normally succeed at. I dont think using ability scores as a raw literal measure of some type of threshold is useful. Using ability scores as a measure of expressing that type of action while under pressing conditions is blatently more useful in a dnd game. A pc with low int isnt "dumb", they are just bad at recalling complicated memories under pressure. I think this is a perspective on characters that really frees you to play a meaningful game with meaningful character stats.

[@chickenmonger123]

I started in 5e. The conclusion in the beginning, has always been that all PCs are supernaturally powerful. Their Melee Classes aren’t Magical necessarily. But they are well beyond the scope of average. Not all Supernatural is Magic. Nor necessarily Racial and Physiological. Some are just skill and technique. This is like those stupid and fake Touch of Death Masters. This is the line we walk with all Melee. Which is why in 5e, a 20th Monk actually becomes Biologically Immortal. It’s a form of Power focused on some aspect of the World that is not Magic, but is a form of transcendence of limit. In that case, even Mortal limit. Which is why Gods in 5e are Magical in some ways. They do have Magical Properties, but not all Cast Magic. Or even wield Spell Effects. Though Cosmology is a whole other question, you can think of Gods having the same dynamics. They could Multiclass into a Caster, but not all do. And it doesn’t make them less to do so. There are other things too. Like Psionics. Or things stemming from various aspects of Cosmological factors.

[@johnheaton2545]

In my own game, I use a variation of the skill system from 3rd edition. Basically, every character starts with a small number of skills, but a Thief gets more of them, and only Thieves improve their skills at level up. Real hardcore niche protection, but the system works!

[@brendanreeves6785]

Laissez les bon Temps Rouler. Great vid.

[@daddyrolleda1]

I really appreciate you watching all the way through to the end! I think you're the first who has done so (or at least the first to comment to that effect). Cheers, and thanks for watching and commenting!

[@michaelwallace6851]

Surprise rolls encompass character "stealth". If the surprise roll succeeds, they were stealthy. If the monster's surprise roll succeeds, they were also stealthy. When one succeeds, and the other fails, then the succeeding side was more stealthy. This is how I normally run stealth for non-thieves.

[@SusCalvin]

Sometimes we have used surprice chance as a single round's advantage. You are not necessarily undetected but you have one round to act before they get their act together and respond. You can use that advantage to run away, and get one round's head start before the other side decides to give chase or not. I guess a thief could use this moment to Hide in Shadows. You could blat them with shotguns and hope the survivors give up. But no matter what the groups decide, on the next round the surprise lifts.

[@deeterful]

Thieves skills are learned “on the job” so to speak. Having to run from the cops makes one sneakier than the average citizen. Listening to hear if a room is empty before breaking in is necessary if one wants to avoid jail time. These are survival skills for living on the mean streets. A thief’s entire career is predicated on the fact that no one sees them employing their craft.

[@Gaurelin]

While I appreciate your perspective as always, I honestly have never understood this particular gaming "controversy" as it always seemed clear to me that while the Thief had abilities beyond those of other characters, that in no way precluded others from taking similar actions, simply without the specialized training. Of course anyone can climb, but only a thief has been trained to climb surfaces others would require climbing gear to even attempt. That always seemed the logical application to me. Personally, I'm not a fan of categorizing thief abilities as "supernatural" in nature, in part because that simply doesn't seem necessary, and furthermore just doesn't really click for me in terms of flavor. I don't know how to pick a lock. I've never been taught how to do so. Someone who has, will be able to, and no magic on their party is required. Regardless, always nice to see another history topic from you, Martin! Game On!

[@SusCalvin]

Earthdawn uses magical thief abilities, but that is a game where every classed character has semi-magical abilities. Thieve's Cant in Earthdawn is a literal magic language thief adepts can weave into seemingly normal conversation. It creates a very high-magic, high-fantasy game though.

[@Gaurelin]

@@SusCalvin That's a specific game though, and in D&D, I've never in any way gotten the impression that such was the intent. It just doesn't fit right, for me, at least. They do what they do because they have training others don't.

[@SusCalvin]

@@Gaurelin It's just part of my historical games interest. I try to look at what other games who would have stood next to different editions of D&D, or how other games solved these things. Yeah, that decision for Earthdawn makes it a very different game. When every class in Earthdawn can do small bits of magic it fills the whole game with magic. Earthdawn shows up a lot later in general RPG history, 1993. A couple years after Vampire. Classic Traveller and the other GDW games had a simple skill system relatively early on. BRP as well.

[@Gaurelin]

@@SusCalvin I can dig it. Being a gaming historian is also part of my hobby interest. I find the growth and development of the hobby fascinating.

[@SusCalvin]

@@Gaurelin But yeah, that is not what OD&D thieves are. I also think the D&D thief was closer to Grey Mouser, Thieves' World etc. I started reading Locke Lamora, and liked how much effort thieves there spend to not fight. The thief does things a human with luck and skill above and beyond normal adventurer competence. Like having a higher Listen chance than normal, being able to freeclimb a wall. A lot of them are worded strangely, and sometimes it's easy to miss that others also have a listen chance. I guess this created some debate. Anything defined as a thief skill becomes something outside normal adventurer competence. If I was to give thieves a hacking skill or an evasive driving skill I would say that a wizard can't do them.