HOW TO ADD POWER TO YOUR SUPERCHARGED 3800 L67. 91 OCTANE PUMP GAS VS E85! TUNING, E85 & BYPASS

[@TurboTPI]

I really want to see an actual long runner N/A intake on it now to compare to the gutted blower, short runner intake. Keep it up! 🤘🏼

[@gearcheck101]

Peak power will be close, maybe a little less, the power under the curve would be better with a real NA manifold. HV Intake inserts existed for a while, don't know if they're still made, that eliminate the runners for max peak power, at the expense of power under the curve. That is how that works. It's a compromise.

[@johnnyboyssite]

the stock 3800 N/A was rated 200-205 hp , 225 ft lbs

[@a2cryss]

Me too. Should really help the NA power but also curious when he turbos it.

[@fenatic7484]

The 3800 is a fine engine with the supercharger and a mild cam. The Bonneville with the 3800was really a good fit. It reminded me of the 275 hp 327 in my 66 Impala.

[@danielwilson6665]

This series of modifications being done and the data collected from dyno testing is something I find to be very helpful for understanding what I’m working with in the L67 and more importantly, which modifications provide the most gains without compromising durability. No point in flogging a dead mule. Thanks RH !

[@Matp345]

Surprised it made that much NA. Thanks for all your hard work richard. Love the videos. Now pulley this thing

[@james10739]

Have you not seen those videos he has already

[@Matp345]

@@james10739 yep I know but why not. Just turn one up to 11

[@billballin6948]

Is this bottom end an L67/L32?

[@james10739]

@@Matp345 I think he put the smallest pulley in he could I mean I said turn it around and wrap the belt around the flex plate

[@Matp345]

@@james10739 lol 30k blower rpm

[@robertfitzgerald3097]

The L67 was available in rear wheel drive vehicles manufactured by GMH (GM subsidiary) here in Australia from 1996 to 2004. My 1996 VS Commodore ute has a N/A 3800 Ecotec which I plan to swap for an L67 I picked up a few years ago.

[@paulmartin8212]

I wish you would get a 3.5 ecoboost and just have at it like these 3800 series. Love your videos and all the tech talk.

[@allanb3222]

They are hard to come by in his salvage yard.

[@Prestiged_peck]

Notification squad here

[@jessemurray1757]

The problem with adding timing on these engines while running no intercooler and 93 with just bolt ons is: after a few seconds in the run it will start to get hot and knock. Usually about half way through 2nd gear. I use to use the timing vs afr table to pull timing over time, instead of the factory setting of adding timing. The factory tune has an afr vs rpm vs time table that allows you to richen it up over time. I remember having as much as 18-20 degrees in 1st and dropping to as low as 12 by the top of second.

[@richardholdener1727]

BIG CHANGE

[@b.c4066]

Well said, and it speaks directly to what a guy can get away with on a Dyno or drag strip in comparison to what you can do on an endurance/street engine. Especially when using pump gas. The more you study that the more you realize just how much testing and development the factory puts into these packages.. and to get them to live 150,000-200,000 miles on garbage fuel is just amazing. Not suggesting we stop modifying them, but rather we not assume the factory was dumb or didn't know wtf they were doing. Especially the power train management.. they put together some tough combinations that will go 100 k even if an idiot owns it and neglects it and that is impressive to say the least.

[@jessemurray1757]

@@b.c4066 while i agree. Some factory cals are good while others are terrible. For example, terrible ones include, Trailblazer SS, Pontiac G8 GT, early GM trucks. While most of the newer ones are very good. New camaro SS and mustang GT for example.

[@jeremypike9153]

@@jessemurray1757 The manufacturers detune different vehicles as to not step on any toes within their own line up or associated brands line ups at different times. It's not that the factory calibration couldn't have been better alot of times they intentionally detune them. The Corvette and Camaro are a good example of this at times they both ran the exact same hardware yet we're advertised at different power outputs. GM would never allow a lower spectrum car than their flagship sports car make as much power as the sports car they are talking up. This leaves a ton of power left on the table through simple modifications and a good aggressive tune.

[@SPARTANLuis067]

You beautiful bastard, I JUST bought injectors and am going e85 then downsizing pulleys. Glad to see you test the engine's worth!

[@CHINGY1993]

Love the l67 3800 videos. Hoping you tested 1.9 rockers on stock cam gains. Keep up the good work richard. Thumbs up from me

[@boosted0079]

I didn't expect the bypass test in na form to really do anything, but the proof is in the pudding as they say. That does make me wonder if the blower casing itself wasn't nearly as efficient as using just the stock na intake setup. The gen M90 is inherently less efficient than the gen 5. Lot of us port out the gen 3s outlet areas(aarow into triangle) and cut the lower intake opening up to increase the volumetric efficiency as much as possible. These few tests are the ones a lot of us would like to see compared with using the higher compression bottom end(top swapped L36). Side by side comparisons. What kind of power curve differences. Is making more power with less boost better for sporty street cars lol. Love your content Richard

[@thomaszwanink5158]

I am currently running a l27 with a M90 supercharger in a boat. Just learnt the hard way that running 24 degrees of timing on 98 fuel doesnt work!!! Popped a head gasket after 30 seconds at 4500 rpm only running 8lbs of boost. Although not quite the same a huge learning on the amount of timing you need to pull out when you run boost.Thanks so much for sharing I really enjoy your videos and learn so much every time I watch them. A big thumbs up from me.....

[@richardholdener1727]

24 would definitely be too much

[@dannyjr7997]

Putting one of these in my 2000 s10 blazer. Love these videos!

[@jessemurray1757]

my old 2000 4 door went 14.02@98.9 with 93 and 3.5 pulley. Swapped to E85 and 3.2 and ran 13.0@104

[@richardholdener1727]

THATS A BIG ET CHANGE FOR 5 MPH

[@hayden6056]

@@richardholdener1727 probably the installed the driver mod. Or gained .3 or so in the sixty and fell off in the top end like these are notorious for.

[@jessemurray1757]

@@richardholdener1727 agreed. The pulley change bumped the low and midrange power a ton.

[@jessemurray1757]

@@hayden6056 considering the fact that it dead hooked and its automatic, naw man.

[@LunarOutlawsGarage]

Great video as always man.

[@tuningwithstyx]

Awesome info! Something else that's hard to show on the dyno is how timing and e85 play into heat soak. These motors get hot pretty quick, usually I can only get a pull or two in them before they start getting hot and start to see KR. E85 though pretty much solves that problem and they are so much more consistent pull after pull! Plus then you can go a step further and run a smaller pulley and more timing to really get the most out of it without opening up the motor, and it'll still be really consistent from what I've found as long as you don't go too crazy with the pulley size haha!

[@blown572hemi]

It made almost 1hp per cubic inch n/a. Impressive! Especially with low compression

[@ethancooper1127]

Hope to see some 8.1 content in the future

[@TheCrawfordaz]

Great info love the natural aspirate test

[@richardholdener1727]

Thank you!

[@WarShrike]

Nice video! Should be making some pulls soon on mine. I need to get baseline on the new dyno with the current setup and then change the intake to get past the limitation on the stock 3800 v6 f-body manifold. On a mustang dyno it did 247whp/268tq NA.

[@ForneyRider]

Dad had a park Avenue with the supercharger motor. 31mpg driving between Houston and Dallas. We had to have the sc rebuilt but fuel mileage and hp went back to normal after rebuild. No mods.

[@MonkeyFabGarage]

Couple things, one this video hits me right in my confirmation bias. Two, when people say you can’t polish a turd I present to you boost

[@b.c4066]

E85 is amazing stuff, currently 40 cents per gallon cheaper here than 87 octane. Really makes me want to switch to it

[@jasonandjenparks1523]

Ha, until you're getting 5 mpg in your turbo Silverado

[@deanstevenson6527]

🎢Clever guy Mr H.🏈lobes over the goal again. The Crowd goes Wild! I give you 12 out of 10 for effort Sir!

[@richardholdener1727]

12 out of 10 is a good score

[@Sleeperdude]

Great info

[@zackchigo]

I'd love to see my set up ran. Ported TB, ported blower outlet, ZZP Intercooler, ported lower intake to match blower and intercooler, 2.8 pulley, 1.9 rockers, LS6 springs, headers, E85, I ran a rich 11.0 AFR and 15deg timing. I beat stock LS1 Camaros in a heavy 4 door grand prix.

[@richardholdener1727]

it needs a cam

[@pauljohnson7may]

As a follow on to the M90 LS test, what about using an M112 on that AND the 3800?

[@snutmeez]

I only have 91 octane available here in Halifax 🇨🇦

[@robmartin5382]

Richard. I know you’re moving on from 3800’s but I think we REALLY need one more test. There is no hard data to be found anywhere when it comes to using a ported Gen III vs a stock Gen V blower. I’ve heard the Gen V is worth more and I’ve talked to guys who’ve switched from a ported G3 to a G5 and not pick up hardly anything! One guy says he lost a very small amount of power. We have this debate ALL the time and this question gets asked A LOT. Nobody has a definite answer. Just guesses. Thanks

[@richardholdener1727]

I'm not done with the 3800 yet, but the intake needs to be changed too and throttle body

[@thebaron512]

I would love to shove this beast into my project car, which has been done before.

[@richardholdener1727]

what car?

[@thebaron512]

@@richardholdener1727 85 chevy citation x-11

[@timothyesmond7358]

David freiburger pissed me off when he said nobody cares about the 3.9 l Magnum

[@gearcheck101]

The bypass valve literally allows the air to bypass the rotorpack completely. Hence the name. The rotors are spinning in effectively a vacuum at that point. This is to prevent blower pull when you are at low throttle inputs (cruise) and idle. No one is running a blocked off m90 on an NA engine for power. I am interested in your ignition system, did you connect the factory ICM to LS1 style coils? Or is this some stand alone system for use on the dyno? FWIW, I have a *very* modified L67 that holds the power record for camshaft I'm using, on E85. I am surprised you didn't pick up more, honestly expected to see about 10% jump in power. I think something is off here. I rewrote my PCM to do everything in E85 scale, as opposed to just scaling the IFR's down ~40% like most people do. In the volume of E85 you have to burn to match the lambda of a gasoline mixture you will have ~13% more energy. You should see gains in that magnitude in a like for like switch, like 8-10% after losses.

[@richardholdener1727]

holds the record for the cam you are using? we used ls1 coil packs with the Holley HP

[@gearcheck101]

@@richardholdener1727 Holds/held. I haven't checked if any one updated the list in years, been busy with other hobbies/house etc... Yes for the cam I am using. I have a set of aluminum heads that I had a lot of work done to, that flow 296 CFM on intake @ .600, a big cam, and 1.875 primary headers all built around them, that has just been sitting. TD rockers and fabricated valve covers - need to build whole new engine mount/tensioner bracket to clear the covers. Along with ATI 10% OD damper, oil filter relocation kit, etc. I have aeromotive fuel rails, but I'm not a huge fan due to the lack of injector retainer clips, think I will convert a L32 rail into 2 piece and use an external regulator. I need a SIII oil pan because I want to use it to run external sump, had one in my hand and sent it back because of issues, UPS lost it. :(

[@timothyesmond7358]

First comment

[@tylermcintyre5177]

The holdener hp cook book.

[@pauljohnson7may]

I wonder if the outlet of the empty blower case was opened out to match a radiused manifold, would it make more hp ? The sharp edge of the manifold is not good for air flow naturally aspirated.

[@richardholdener1727]

I THINK IT WOULD

[@HumbleDaves]

Looking for any turbo stuff in background rubbing my hands together. Gt45, 14lbs, and e85 through the gutted housing please!!!

[@willsmith8586]

Would like to see a turbo/ roots combo. Boost at low and top ends.

[@richardholdener1727]

that video is up on a 3800

[@242bleek]

This test makes me wonder how that 3800 with the gutted intake would do with a turbo at the exact same boost level. It seems like that M90 is a major restriction in power production seeing the power it made N/A.

[@tonyguasco6023]

would you please do testing and mods to a Ford 3.7 Cyclone. I had a GT 500 blower i was going to put on my 3.7 but i hadn't seen anybody do successfully, yet? wanna try?

[@thetruejay20]

Yeah don't they make a block off plate like that for when you want to turbo the L67?

[@normanmadden]

Now test the "naturally aspirated engine" driving the SC under some type of contained boost (into a pressure regulated box?), you can then verify the exact amount of parasitic loss from the blower.

[@gearcheck101]

Gains are going to be roughly 3:1, if I had to guess. So if you gain 80 HP after losses, it's going to *produce* 120 hp and cost 40 hp to spin.

[@richardholdener1727]

the drive losses increase with blower speed and boost-but the power gains decreases

[@jeremykastrup6907]

Needed the dime coolant mod

[@vinceyoung5912]

Can I use 91% isopropyl from Walmart in my gas tank? What would be the ratio?

[@fenatic7484]

I liked it

[@mariocampos6508]

Are u using a stock computer did u have to change injectors for e85

[@tylermcintyre5177]

#andddwerelivee

[@02badfnz]

Wow

[@TheProchargedmopar]

👍💪

[@nolanhayden4432]

I’d be curious to see cylinder-cylinder AFR’s on a progressively hogged out blower, my understanding is that you do still need some shape there to help equalize airflow through the plenum, so I’ve been scared to touch mine. Of course, it also made 315lb-ft at the rear wheels through a T5, so maybe I won’t worry about it until I replace my fusible transmission.

[@richardholdener1727]

the discharge shape of the blower will have little effect on distribution (the position can)

[@nolanhayden4432]

@@richardholdener1727 Good to know, thanks!

[@carlosr5189]

It was really limited on power because it had a big pulley and no intercooler can’t make much boost

[@hayden6056]

You want as little boost as possible any way. Decent camshaft and you can get away with no intercooler fairly well especially of on e85. E85 and the right cam you can't run a smaller pulley even if you add an intercooler. Just pick up some power and reliability due to less heat soak and lower iat.

[@forthemusic95]

Im curious what AFR you used WOT? I find kr lower than 11.2 and above 12.1 on my setup.

[@richardholdener1727]

there is no KR on this-we run a Holley HP ECU

[@Christdeliverme]

Hahah great test with the bypass :D

[@richardholdener1727]

Glad you liked it! I was hoping it made the Q-Jet (flip the air cleaner lid) noise

[@sjcperformance]

What is the highest power to weight engine that you have ever run?

[@richardholdener1727]

1543 hp 6.0l ls

[@demetriusrayden-erisjohnso2279]

So when you simply add a turbocharger you are tripling the naturally aspirated horsepower rating. Hmm 300% increase is not bad with a stock bottom end ... This is a really good motor.... They should have put a supercharged or turbocharged 3800 in the firebirds. Like the Firehawk. Or even the WS6. Can you do a turbo 3800 build cheaper than a Chevy 350 for the same horsepower? Dollar-for-dollar where is your money best spent?

[@richardholdener1727]

depends on your starting point-do you already have a motor

[@DemetriusRaydenJohnson-x5t]

Yes I've got a 2002 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP motor.

[@tujavi340]

What are some mods u recommend to make 400hp on grand prix gtp? Just got an 02’ Grand prix gtp my goal is to make atleast 400hp if possible any advice?

[@richardholdener1727]

cam, ported heads and pulley

[@jamespittman5345]

Have you ever done supercharged 300 ford or turbo one

[@richardholdener1727]

not yet

[@1k_vonte]

could you do the L36 next or its kinda no point 👀 i feel it may be a difference tho

[@richardholdener1727]

an l36 starts out higher (higher compression) and ends higher with any given pulley (it responds the same)

[@richkelly4040]

After gutting the s/c, how did you deal with the needle bearings? Thanks

[@richardholdener1727]

I didn't

[@richkelly4040]

@@richardholdener1727 Was considering doing that test myself, apparently the n. bearings did not migrate down stream. Just wondering why. Thanks

[@anthonyfasano2267]

I have 2004 monte carlo ss supercharged it has many mods when I got the car just installed full stack intercooler and 42lb injectors 105# valve springs etc when the car is on my fuel pressure gauge reads around 42 or 43 psi at idle is that normal I didn't get the injectors and car dyno tuned yet it starts right up with no problems question should I get a adjustable fuel pressure regulator thanks for your help

[@richardholdener1727]

it needs to be tuned

[@anthonyfasano2267]

@@richardholdener1727 thank you

[@anthonyfasano2267]

Mr Richard I have another problem I live in new Jersey I can't find a shop to dyno tune my car I called at least 5 shops already please I need some help what can I do thanks for your help

[@Slowv8Fiero]

Any chance you guys might eventually play around with the chevy 3.9 lz9 engine from an 08 impala? Turbo?

[@richardholdener1727]

not familiar with that one

[@Slowv8Fiero]

@@richardholdener1727 thanks for the reply. It was used in 08 impalas and other GM fwd models around the same time It replaced the 3800. It was a 240 hp 240 tq 60 degree v6. GM literature claims the heads were based off the ls1 heads. It shares the same bore as an ls1 too at 3.898 which makes ls1 pistons a drop in Head flow checks in around 230cfm at 600 int and 150ish exh which seems to be roughly what stock ls1 heads flow at least on the intake side. Valves are 1.87/1.52 Keep up the good work and hey, maybe one day a cheap 3900 lz9 will pop up cheap in a boneyard. 👍

[@briangriffin5391]

@Richard Holdener What was the timing used N/A?

[@richardholdener1727]

28

[@briangriffin5391]

@@richardholdener1727 i could never get my 3800 Firebird to like any more then 25 NA.

[@briangriffin5391]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/iXmtppeXnb6EapI On some N2O..

[@billballin6948]

What cam is in it?

[@richardholdener1727]

stock l67 right now

[@jaydubb71]

Since you gutted the blower, turbo it. Common thing...

[@deanstevenson6527]

Stock factory 16 degree timing and 91 RON+MON/2, the SC GM3800 made Exactly the same power at the same revs as a 57 year old Triple Weber DCOE 45 and 40 mm choked 10.5:1 compression ....Slant 6 30 thou over, also 231 cubes. "kzbin.info/www/bejne/aqurqa1-ethkas0"

[@robertbryant7771]

Not AFR, equivalence ratio. Different fuels require different ratios of air to fuel to achieve the same equivalence ratio, be it 1, less than 1 or greater than 1. More FAR than AFR… 😉

[@richardholdener1727]

the AFR is on the gas scale-different amounts of fuel equal the same AFR based on the different stoich value

[@robertbryant7771]

Not to argue with you, maybe to understand better how you’re stating this- ratio or proportion of one component to another vs stoich, where complete combustion equals a perfect lambda of 1, regardless of the fuel. Stoich mixtures of different fuels are inherently different ratios. Hence why the equivalence ratio or stoich value is far more useful and meaningful when determining ‘relative’ enrichment vs enleanment between 2 differing fuels with also very different energy densities.