How To Choose Nichicon Audio Capacitors. Are They Worth It?

In this video I take on Big Cap. A special feature from the Bureau of Affairs & Research by Flux Condenser (BARF). (Note: Choose the highest-resolution in your viewer to help see the small print in the spreadsheets.) We’ll sort through the almost endless series of audio capacitors offered by Nichicon, and compare them to their general purpose counterparts to determine if they perform better and are worth the price. You’ll learn about a capacitor’s tangent of loss and why that’s a good specification to consider as it is a factor of a capacitor’s leakage, ESR and impedance. Finally, we discuss whether differences in sound quality can be heard between capacitors with different specs and/or construction materials.
#capacitor #electronicsrepair #stereo #stereorepair

[@FluxCondenser]

Check out my other video about the first stereo cassette deck ever made. Before this, cassettes were mono and intended only for dictation. Watch the video and take a trip back in time, baby! kzbin.info/www/bejne/rnfPeGejZdqki9E

[@jluis5188]

I found that instead of using high-end capacitors which take work to replace I simply move my chair back and forth based on my audio needs. If I move forward the sound stage gets brighter and the bass gets louder if I move back the opposite happens. So instead I made a NICHICON chair. I too have o values to represent this movement but I can swear by them just the same. Happy listening. Remember to always tell yourself before every LP start, this system is the best and you will believe it. ENJOY!

[@FluxCondenser]

Chairs are fine, but true audiophiles listen while doing handstands.

[@rmzidann]

This was very useful! Thank you. I have been looking for a video like this for a long time!

[@tomfenn7149]

What a brilliant and informative explanation! I've been tearing my hair out too trying to choose cap replacements for my 50 year-old Sansui (AU-222) amp. This time I'll go with ELNA (and Panasonic FC's for the PSU) because ELNA was what Sansui used originally. I'm only going with Panasonic as the ELNA Silmic caps won't reach the dizzy heights of 1500µF. But knowing me, I've still probably got it all wrong! This video certainly sheds more light on this somewhat murky area of amp recapping. So impressed, that you get a subscribe and a like for the video from me.

[@engjds]

Focus on the PSU smoothing caps, thats where the major performance boost is, go for larger values as you can (up to 150,000uF), good values is around 20,000uF-which exceeds some audiophile amps, hell Musical Fidelity £1000 amps only have a 6800uf on each rail.

[@johnfranks]

When I was ordering caps for the pre-amp upgrade, once I figured out that KZ were the premium line, my only concern became size. I ended up having to use mostly Fine Gold as the KZ caps were just too large in diameter to fit in the available footprints. Lead diameter also didn't really work out with the KZs. What I found interesting, were the price breaks in volume. One item on Mouser was like $10.40 for the 24 I needed or for $10.80 I could get 100.

[@jeffberwick]

Thanks! This is exactly what I was looking for.

[@Niaaal]

Great video, thank you for sharing your research and knowledge with us

[@FluxCondenser]

My pleasure!

[@ODIS-bp1ks]

Appreciate your work in demystifying the process of replacing components. Further, knowing what to use when replacing components, is also appreciated. Thank you.

[@FluxCondenser]

My pleasure. So glad you found the video helpful.

[@ramencurry6672]

Love a good capacitor.

[@engjds]

For those looking to upgrade their power supply smoothing caps, I have done some calculations/rule of thumb for you. 1) Typically you get around 10,000 to 15,000uf in the supply, @100W this equates to about 10% voltage variation at full wattage, so if you were to go to 150,000uF that would be about 1% voltage variation, this higher value will give you a much better performance that just changing brands or type to audio grade. 2) make sure you have a 0.1uF metalized film cap in parallel with the supply caps, this is standard on all modern amps now, but check anyway as it caused a massive betterment of sound. 3) The supply caps are often between + and 0v and +v and 0V, you can decrease ripple further by adding a cap between -V an +V, just remember these need to be double the working voltage (V) of the other caps. As for the video, I believe the audio grade give better ESR (Series resistance) at the audio frequencies, however I can find NO information about this on the Nichicon website, so perhaps this is just false otherwise they would be proud to publish those graphs.

[@solototemprana]

Ok .01 mylar at what voltage?

[@GTRGTX999]

I'm sure a company like Yamaha has done research on this subject. If only they would release that information to the public it would help everyone.

[@koprcord5338]

Great video. Learn something new with every video. I do have a question, I have speakers that are 36 yrs old and want to recap the crossovers. There are several bipolar caps with large values that would make going non electrolytic very expensive so instead would want to use say an electrolytic with a high quality bypass cap. How do I do that? Or if I chose to do non electrolytic how would I replace a bipolar cap? Thank you for your time and the education you deliver with every video.

[@GreenSound83]

Stellar homework, thank you!

[@FluxCondenser]

You’re welcome. Hope you found the video useful and thanks for stopping by.

[@franciscoalvarez2875]

Thank you for the information, excellent video

[@FluxCondenser]

Glad it was helpful, Francisco.

[@paul87buick]

Excellent Video and great chart

[@philhemenway3503]

Excellent video - Subscribed.

[@FluxCondenser]

Thanks, Phil. Glad to have you with us.

[@fidazaman3155]

thanks for all your valuable information sir.

[@FluxCondenser]

My pleasure.

[@davidolchewsky5365]

Very nice and informative video. I have crossovers that are 25 years old. Even though I have a matched set of speakers & crossovers, one sounds slightly different; guess it could be room modes.?. There appear to be Nichicon 'Green Can' - Muse BP caps and T.I. (not sure who makes them) 'Orange Can' - BP and NP caps. All are 85C rated. Do you think it worth to blanket replace all caps or take each out, measure, and then decide?

[@FluxCondenser]

Thanks, David. If you’re uncertain what’s causing the difference in sound, I would try to isolate that first. You mention room modes, so start there. You could try swapping the speakers to see if they retain the same sound in different positions. Or, temporarily place them close together in the center of the room and listen closely to determine if they sound different. If they do indeed sound different, isolate which driver(s) are contributing to the difference and make certain all drivers are actually functioning. With three-way speakers, for example, a speaker with a burnt-out tweeter or midrange can be somewhat difficult to immediately detect in a stereo system. If the sound is different left from right, but it doesn’t follow the speakers, you could have another problem in the system. Perhaps a cable, amp, preamp, etc. Finally, if you find there are differences in sound between the speakers, and all the drivers are working, you could indeed have a problem with the crossover(s). You may not need to do a complete recap to fix this, though, and the problem may not even be a capacitor. Additionally, even if all drivers are functioning, one of them may still be damaged which is contributing to the sound differences. Inspect the drivers carefully. As you can see, diagnosing this issue could be complex, and I can’t recommend a blanket recap of the crossovers as the definite solution. If these were much older speakers I would recommend the recap, but 25 year-old Nichicons aren’t typically a problem. That said, again, there’s still a small possibility one or more have developed a problem.

[@davidolchewsky5365]

@@FluxCondenser Thanks very much for the highly descriptive response. I will certainly try and narrow it down. I do know that all drivers sound like there are working, but as you say one or more could still have some type of deficiency, even though emitting sound. Thanks again!

[@FluxCondenser]

Always happy to help, David. Good luck figuring this out.

[@johnfranks]

I'm replacing the caps on a high-end pre-amp of which the enthusiast owner has 3 of the same unit and has agreed to blind test against one of the older units with the factory installed Xicon caps. I'll be using KZ and FG. It'll be interesting to see if the owner of the equipment, who has spent hundreds of hours listening, will be able to hear the difference. They definitely look classy.

[@FluxCondenser]

I’d definitely be interested in finding out the results of that listening test, so let me know how it goes. Of course, the results will only be as good as the test-setup to make sure all the levels are perfectly matched, etc. As I’m sure you know, even a tiny difference in levels is enough for one piece of equipment to sound “better” than another. I’ve got some newly acquired antique Macintosh gear that I’ll recap with Nichicon audio-grades. As you said, they look classy. And even though some of the marketing claims are questionable, they’re kind of a no-brainer for high-end classic gear where money is no object. Thanks for watching and your great comment!

[@johnfranks]

@@FluxCondenser It should be easy enough to setup both pre-amps identically as they have digital menu driven UIs and will be configured exactly the same. I hadn't given it much thought beyond that, but I guess I should measure & compare the output voltages prior to the test. The third unit will likely get the same treatment but with ELNA Simlic capacitors. It seemed like a rare opportunity to blind test cap upgrades in identical $5K pre-amps like this, so I too am very interested in the results. No idea if he will be able to hear a difference, prefer the old 'familiar' sounding caps, or be able to hear details in the audio he's never heard before.... It'll be interesting for sure. I'll let you know how it goes.

[@fluxcapacitor3273]

@@johnfranks what's the result? did he realize a big difference in the sound?

[@bobblahbinski7061]

Have you gotten a result yet? We're getting excited here.

[@fluxcapacitor3273]

Heyy results?

[@noco-pf3vj]

When upgrade or recap old audio amplifier, I always use Nichicon FG for small caps, and Nichicon KG or KS for power supply caps. The amps sound very good after an upgrade, treble is detailed and bass is tighter but maybe because old caps are not in good condition anymore. At least inside of the amplifier is pretty now with gold looking caps.

[@FluxCondenser]

Thanks for your input, Faisal. I agree, the Nichicon audio caps are good quality, and look great.

[@kevinchew2594]

halo , faisal can i know which parts to recap replace to get better sound ? tq

[@kevinchew2594]

n where to buy this parts ? tq

[@FluxCondenser]

I buy my components through Mouser.

[@ramencurry6672]

For my guitar pedals, I have bought whatever Nichicon that was available that had the correct specs. It doesn’t make a noticeable difference in sound but for psychological reasons I like using that brand. It’s kind of like a cosmetic thing.

[@PauReydefaura]

This is the video I was looking for ! Thank you VERY much. Would you recommend buying the nichicon capacitor kits instead of units separately ?

[@FluxCondenser]

I’ve had good luck buying kits just to have some on hand, but often I’ll have to order individual as there’s no way kits can supply 100% of your needs. Still, if you’re tackling lots of projects it’s good to have lots of components in stock provided it’s cost efficient for you and you can afford the luxury.

[@mfr58]

Useful work, thanks. Although I disagree with your statement "if it can't be measured, it can't be heard...". First, the experience of hearing is subjective, so our perception is the most sensitive measuring tool, second, we still don't understand the phenomena of electricity, fields and much else...what we have are mathematical models that allow us to manipulate nature at a certain level, to some degree, in order to create technologies, but to think that those models are accurate explanations of nature's reality is a mistake. Many people experience things that mainstream science says can't be so, but maybe we just haven't understood how to make the measuring equipment and methodologies to achieve that as yet....Of course we need to be wary of snake oil, capacitors or otherwise....

[@FluxCondenser]

Glad you found the video useful. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on “if it can’t be measured, it can’t be heard...” I strongly stand by that statement and no well done double-blind study has ever shown it not to be true.

[@mfr58]

@@FluxCondenser Fair enough. Cheers.

[@ericmc6482]

@@FluxCondenser Agreed if it can be heard it can be measured, that said standard measurements do not tell all. Excess noise production is the cause of audible differences and typically not measured.

[@ericmc6482]

@@FluxCondenser I must have missed those, please give links to appropriate videos. Excess noise/current noise is a precise term, are you sure that you are differentiating excess noise ?.

[@FluxCondenser]

The terms Excess noise and Current noise are newer terms and they’re not something I’m all that familiar with. My apologies as I thought you were speaking of excess noise and current noise in a general sense and not the precise terms as you mentioned.

[@AstonsVintageTechnologyWorkshp]

Ouch, we're paying nearly 50x as much for caps now, over here. I think the fake caps market has hurt the manufacturers somewhat. Thanks for the video though. Nice work.

[@Laz_Arus]

That's it! I'm going to rip out all my 12 gauge standard twin flex copper speaker cable and interconnects and get me some "fableKABLE" branded goodness. 🔊

[@michaelcorlet2998]

Super through type 3 awsome. Very musical and worth the extra cash.

[@PhuckHue2]

Nichicon audio capacitors aren't that expensive. The only capacitor where I notice a significant audio improvement was with the Elna Silmic II series

[@The.Home.Cinema.Engineer]

HELP this kit is no longer available is there a new version of this kit anywhere?!??!?!?!?!

[@moodesigner]

Superb!

[@FluxCondenser]

Thanks a lot!

[@arupgoswami2109]

I've had great results using KZ & FG in my DIY projects. For PSU, my 1st look would be the Mundorfs.

[@giorgioformicola5287]

Never buy mundorf.they are alla out of specs!!!

[@chrisladouceur4093]

Without knowing much on the subject... Do they use different dielectrics or construction types? Perhaps this plays a role outside the measurements you used?

[@FluxCondenser]

It’s a good question, but Nichicon doesn’t claim that some capacitor series possess better construction. And whether they use a different dielectric (again, no claims are made) is of no matter if that doesn’t contribute to better performance. The true quality ratings that should be used to compare Nichicon capacitors to one another are voltage rating, temperature rating and ESR or tangent of loss which I cover in the video. These three variables tell you everything you need to know about their comparative longevity and suitability. Thanks for the great question.

[@xxmrrickxx]

Good thoughts but at the end of the day those aspects should also show up on the datasheet. Even the physical construction should show some measurable benefit such as service life or with a military or automotive grade from better vibration resistance, etc.

[@subramoniams9850]

Good informaition but is Tan delta expressed in %? Isn't it simply the ratio of the series resistor value to the overall complex impedance.

[@FluxCondenser]

Thanks, Subramoniam. Yes, you’re absolutely correct. The tangent-of-loss is the difference in degrees between the cap voltage/current phase angle to a theoretically perfect 90 degrees. It should be stated in degrees, not percentage. If I made that mistake in the video my apologies. Thanks again for pointing that out.

[@subramoniams9850]

@@FluxCondenser ratio of ESR to Capacitive impedance.(Sorry, I mentioned it as overall impedance in my comment). Tangent being ratio wouldn't have a unit. But the loss angle yes in degrees

[@uitkijkpost7403]

Thanx a lot for making the inventory. Not so sure about your commentary though

[@FluxCondenser]

Not sure about what? Be specific.

[@pitragroovemaster1262]

I often see a Japanese lab replacing all old electrolytic capacitors with Nichicon FG on turntables as well. It is understandable that the sound on an amplifier or preamp with new capacitors there may be audible differences but on a turntable it is ridiculous to use Nichicon FG .... perhaps the repairman has bought thousands of Nichicon FG in stock and uses them even when needs to fix the toaster. LOL

[@FluxCondenser]

So much about capacitors is ridiculous! But when there’s an opportunity to exploit people, there’s always someone ready to do it.

[@GBatya]

8:47 We tried Nichicon KG in power amp, they really give better sound.

[@kevinchew2594]

halo , fren can i know which parts capacitor to replace to get better sound quality ? tq

[@GBatya]

@@kevinchew2594 Hi, Mostly the big puffer caps affect the sound. Super Through KG is the best for this purpose in power amp.

[@FluxCondenser]

Kevin, test the capacitors and replace ones that are out of spec. Electrolytics are typically the most likely type to fail. A bad filter cap can increase noise. A coupling capacitor will be in the audio signal. Bypass capacitors are less likely to affect sound, but a bad one can still cause issues. It’s not advisable to simply replace a capacitor in search of better sound quality as two capacitors that measure the same for capacitance, leakage and loss will sound the same, regardless of brand or silly marketing claims.

[@Psychobeppe]

@@kevinchew2594 check the circuit diagram and change the electrolytic capacitors that do not go to ground. The ones that effect the sound the most are the filter or smoothing capacitors

[@suadcokljat1045]

Oh come on, they look nicer! Why not spend few extra bucks to have all that nice colors inside equipment box? 😇

[@sohans8735]

Can somebody Please Tear down the Mundorf Silver cap & Show us all whether Mundorf Silver cap is really using Pure Silver Foil inside. Is it real or Fake ? Video Please..

[@frankgeeraerts6243]

NO silver foil.................foil nevertheless ! Real silver foil capacitors are in another price range...............and sound different.........

[@jluis5188]

Audio resistance is the key. No one value gives you the magic bullet. Lower and higher values have their place. So choose the one you think will work for your needs. NICHCON is the better choice when it comes to the honesty of what materials it is made from.So we choose and trust in NICHINCON.

[@FluxCondenser]

I would avoid NICHCON and NICHINCON brands and stick with Nichicon.

[@myplaguesify]

which is better nichicon or elna?

[@FluxCondenser]

I can’t make a blanket statement that one brand is better than the other. In my opinion, caps sound the same if they test the same. Compare the price and tangent of loss between brands for the caps you need. Focus on getting the correct uF, voltage rating, temp rating, size and terminal type. Once your comparison is apples:apples, choose the cap with the lowest tangent of loss and/or the best price, depending on what’s of more importance for the given application. Don’t fall for marketing claims which dishonestly make claims about sound quality.

[@PhuckHue2]

They are both top quality. For the audio path I use Elna Silmic II and power supply NIchicon and Rubycon

[@deleteduser3749]

Nothing about ESR ratings? I suspect that's why the audio ones are better/more expensive.

[@frankgeeraerts6243]

The best power supply capacitors I ever used were Siemens Sikorel.............

[@theaudioblogbypaulproshin2900]

Although, I really find your videos super-interesting for me as an audio hobbyst slash a bit diyer, this particular video is not about an experience since you actually can hear a difference between different types of materials/types of Nichi's caps when you have a top performance audio system. And I insist when you can measure these approx the same, just listen on a good resolving equipment. You'll hear. I personally compared LKG Type III vs Type II in my DAC PSU and they do sound different indeed. While cheaper Axial versions were sounding nice, the top of the line were outstanding. Mundorf sounded a bit uninvolving and too bassy. If you compare a top of the line resistors for example, Vishay UXB vs VSR they tend to sound really different to each other in each stage where you put them. UXB sound a bit veiled but a bit smoother than completely transparent VSR. But they measure the same.

[@FluxCondenser]

I appreciate your opinion, but based on my listening experience it’s not one that I share. Without a double-blind study with instantaneous switching between two different components exactly matched for level, observations about sound differences are largely influenced by our psychology. The human ear and brain are notoriously bad at remembering what something sounds like, so without the instantaneous double-blind switching, humans are likely to apply our prejudices when deciding when one component sounds better. Very few high fidelity manufacturers (including Nichicon) subject their components to such analysis because frankly, it would almost always prove their marketing hype to be baloney.

[@young_of_the_mill9560]

Use all UZA

[@sc0or]

No a single word about ESR/ESL vs Freq. Nothing about 3rd harmonic. This is where audio series play IMHO.

[@darthbubba866]

What? No twist-locks? 😜

[@kdomster9141]

Yes Nichicon will sound better when implemented correctly , better than generic non audio grade caps . Rubycon Audio Note are my current best , most transparent sounding

[@user-ev8xs2pj5t]

Class A )

[@coldfinger459sub0]

He did not mention the importance of the ESR values that you need to measure and consider. Sometimes your cap might be located right next to a very hot resistor or transistor at extremely high temperatures baking the nearby capacitor. In these situations you go down your specification and look more towards the capacitor with the highest temperature rating. Now let’s talk about power supplies in your amplifier you don’t use the same capacitors. Now you’re switch your mind over to the specifications if it’s a capacitor used for cleaning up the power and you wanna block DC voltage you look at those specifications. If you have high amp ripple you look at those specifications. Usually surface area but not always indicates lower ESR that’s why some of those big Sillmac III or the highest rated big F series Nitchicon are tall and larger in diameter to give more surface area and have a tendency with more surface area to dissipate more heat if used in those situations. Some tweaks are to lift them and just bend the leads a little bit to make them fit if their lead spacing is a little too wide another trick if there is room to place the larger capacitor underneath the circuitboard and push the leads up through the holes the electrons don’t know the capacitor is on the other side of the board or facing upside down lol. And to get a little bit more reliability durability some go for a higher voltage which will give you a larger in diameter or taller capacitor example say called for 50 V capacitor you stick in a 80 V or 100 V capacitor in its place but keep the micro ferret specification the same. And if you really want to get exotic you could in some situations use film caps or parallel a smaller film cap for example 0.01 or 0.1 micro ferret. Or that small rating they are awfully large and you may not have no room or no place to put them. A little knowledge can be dangerous. Lol

[@FluxCondenser]

ESR was mentioned. As stated in the video, tangent of loss is a measurement of a capacitor’s efficiency which is affected by ESR, ripple current and heat loss. Tangent of loss was the basis for qualitative comparisons for this video and is prominently used by Nichicon to do the same. ESR and other leakage tests are more valuable for testing capacitors which have been in service for a while to detect drops in performance. You seem to imply that temperature concerns were not addressed. The temperature rating of the capacitors was mentioned many times and each spreadsheet specifically denotes which caps are 105C rated. You mention turning ones attention to capacitors which block DC. But all capacitors block non-pulsing DC regardless of application, not just those in a power supply. You also state that the purpose of capacitors in a power supply is to block DC. This is incorrect. The purpose of a filter cap is actually to create clean DC. It does this by smoothing the pulsing DC so that it is no longer pulsing. Higher capacitance capacitors are used in power supplies because they hold a greater charge and therefore release energy more slowly which has a smoothing effect on ripple. You suggest that a different type of electrolytic capacitor is used in a power supply and that they have an entirely different set of specs, but again that’s incorrect. The only difference really is that power supply caps tend to have greater capacitance. You mention switching attention to different specifications when comparing a capacitor for a power supply. This isn’t the case. As with any cap, choose the correct farad, voltage and temperature rating while being mindful of the tangent of loss and the physical requirements of the component which were also addressed in the video (size, terminal type, etc.). This is true of any capacitor for any application. You also suggest putting capacitors under a PC board while also seeming concerned about heat issues. A capacitor which generates heat must be on the top of a board where it has the greatest ventilation. Heat rises, of course, so putting it “under” something is never a good idea. As far as replacing electrolytics with film caps, that’s not generally likely as those have much less capability for capacitance compared to electrolytics. It’s the unique tootsie-roll design and electrolytic solution which allows them to have greater capacitance in a smaller package compared to other capacitors. This is the main reason electrolytics are selected. This is discussed further in my other videos about capacitors. Additionally, as the title suggests, this guide is not about capacitor applications in general. It’s a comparison of Nichicon’s electrolytic audio capacitors series. To learn more about how capacitors work, what voltage specs to choose and installation tips, please see my many other videos which discuss these topics in more detail.

[@Niaaal]

@@FluxCondenser Thank you for your time writing this reply. I'm learning so much from you. Your work is really appreciated

[@Synth2000]

The difference in the audio capacitors is in the perceived texture, sometimes called tone although it is more subtle. I am quite tired of the "if it can't be measured it can't be heard" line. That is not true. Any measurement is limited by your measurement equipment and the selected magnitud to measure. Human ear is an analog system that perceives far more than your scope can measure. The thing, is not all perceived information is made available to our conscious mind, because subconscious mind does not consider it relevant enough. But what we often describe as "musicality" in components, is a subconscious perception, which is far superior (actually, it is analog = potentially unlimited, you really perceive the whole physical thing) to what is available to us in our conscious perception. Makes sense ?

[@FluxCondenser]

You couldn’t be more wrong or make a more senseless comment about the subject. Perceived texture sometimes called tone? Give me a break. You’re simply out of your depth of knowledge and suffering from the Dunning-Kruger effect.

[@JMNTN]

Just the way they justify this stuff seems to be another snake oil audiophile crap to me. When i'm doing a recap on my old luxman amp i'm just using nippon chemi-con, luxman used them 40 years ago and they still use it to this day so they probably know what's best.

[@JMNTN]

A little follow up, after taking a closer at the schematics of my amp i found out that none of the electrolytic caps where even used in the signal path. All of them where either in the power supply or things like protection circuits. My advice would be to just take a look at what the capacitors are used for and then choose one made for that purpose. I found out that using caps made for power supplies have way higher ripple current than these nichicon audio caps for example.

[@frankgeeraerts6243]

Agree with you..........

[@TameElof]

"If it cant be measured, it cant be heard", such naive viewpoints.. Maybe your ideas of what can be measured with todays technology is severely overoptimistic.

[@FluxCondenser]

If you’re looking for a channel that eschews science in favor of magical thinking, look elsewhere.

[@TameElof]

​@@FluxCondenser The question is, what is "science"? Science used to mean an open-minded search for the unknown, for curiousity and inquisitive mind. For searching for truth. Now it hss become academics defending their turf against new ideas, violently defending old dogmas and harassing those questioning them. This is academic science today, and perhaps audio science too. That why is the rate of innovation has slowed radically.

[@FluxCondenser]

@@TameElof Science follows the scientific method. Vigorous testing following accepted procedures must be in place. Results are allowed to be peer-reviewed. In the case of audio components, double-blind tests with statistically relevant sample groups must be used to rule out psychological preconceptions. Science IS under attack these days and must be defended.

[@ericschulze5641]

& we still can't duplicate thier ancient technology, B.S. & sports cars go faster because of what type of window washing fluid it uses. I was going to say paint, but I know where that would go, realtree air fresheners alone add 12-16 hp

[@TameElof]

@@FluxCondenser Some things we measure doesn't matter. Some things that matter we don't measure. Science has been under attack for a long time. Once it meant finding truth, questioning. Now it means (according to your definition) defending existing theories. A final word, phenomenons may exist even if you can't explain them or even observe them. Some day you may be able to. Like electricity 300 years ago.