How to Create Character Arcs for D&D & Pathfinder

[@BGlasnost]

In my experience, younger players tend to be the "power players" who are mainly interested in min-maxing and older players tend to appreciate the storytelling aspect of the game more.

[@irontemplar6222]

The first thing you think of when you think of fantasy is the powerful heros. The badasses, and the epic fights where the hero comes through in the end. For many new people this is what they want to get out of the game. Most grow out of it if you allow them to.

[@BGlasnost]

@@irontemplar6222 In my opinion the difference between the generations is mostly due to the format of modern video games, and video gamers having an unconscious expectation of that same format in an rpg. The most popular video games like WoW are all about min maxing and the "mechanical" aspects of the game. This is also why video gamers are much more inclined to be "chaotic stupid murder hobos" in rpgs, because that's exactly the type of person you are expected to be in a video game like Grand Theft Auto.

[@irontemplar6222]

@@BGlasnost ehhh to be honest I don't think it has anything to do with that. The old guard where just as murderhoboy as everyone else. Their is a reason GG came out with consequences for breaking alignment.

[@BGlasnost]

@@irontemplar6222 I'm currently DMing a game with a mix of "old guard" and new, and my observations of this group along with others in the past have supported my opinion. The young ones tend to treat d&d like a video game, and the older ones tend to want a more in depth story and rp elements. Maybe I've met a skewed bunch of people that don't fit the norm, but also maybe not.

[@irontemplar6222]

@@BGlasnost Yes I dont deny that it in general turns out that way. I however reject the theory you put forward that it is in any way a product of this generation. When the old guard was 15-19 years old they were just as murder happy, and gamey in their treatment of D&D as the modern generation is. If not a bit more so. The reason Gary Gaygax has their be such massive penalties for breaking alignment was because their is no atrocities that 16 year old's will not commit if gold, or something else they want is offered.

[@goblinfacegraphics2298]

Nifty tip to convert?.... make it a dare! That's how I was converted. My DM gave me a pre-generated dumb,fat kid. Changed the way I thought of character building from then on. "I betcha can't play a flawed character...." Before I knew it Laramie Silver oak had grown into a man and had a lot more heart than any previous character; a ranger with a strong sense of self having had to live with and/or overcome limitations. Call it a challenge a watch

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Cool idea.

[@benvoliothefirst]

Agreed completely! That's how Scanlon Shorthalt of Critical Role fame came about, and if you've watched his entire arc... let's just say, tears were shed.

[@jenschristensen1774]

That's exactly what I did with my very seasoned (+25 years) players, and watching the evolvement of the characters have so far been amazing now two years in. I can highly recommend this :o)

[@danwatson6260]

This type of content is the reason I give him a few $$$ on patreon every month. Pure gold every time.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Thanks man!

[@sarahcb3142]

One thing I'd add is when characters give you a backstory and ideas of what they'd like to do, don't purposefully change it to give it an element of surprise. I once made a character who had a twin brother (another player's character) and their parents were missing so they went to find what happened to them. She also happened to be a warlock with a Great Old One patron because as I told the DM "I love eldritch horror and Call of Cthulhu like situations." The DM said it was great and we started playing. Well, my character found out that her twin brother was not her real brother at all, her parents weren't her parents, and she was actually sent by another player's god to be their representative on earth. Also, her eldritch Great Old One patron whom she had discovered in an ancient temple with eldritch mysteries written on the walls? It turned out to be an ancient red dragon because that fit in with her big bad of the campaign. Was that a good story? Sure. But it wasn't my story. And being a person who falls on the role play side I felt a little betrayed that I didn't get to act out the story I had originally intended. It ended up being an okay campaign and we had fun, but it was definitely a shock that I had to go in a totally different direction with my character. Point is, collaborate with your players. Let them make backstories, and then actually use those backstories instead of molding their characters to better fit your campaign. Surprises and twists are all well and good but make sure it doesn't fundamentally alter the story they're hoping to tell.

[@benvoliothefirst]

Not easy for every DM to do, but certainly a goal to strive for.

[@lungtoast]

Bummer(ish?), but you definitely get big points for rolling with it.

[@LazyVideosGAME]

The Heroes journey is a fantastic tool to apply to every character. And while the template is the same, every story is different and you can't tell the similarities if done right, because the fascination with the story overwhelms the sense of similarity. I love it and I use it regularly. I might forward this to my players and I hope they enjoy the idea. This concept is what helped me understand storytelling both as player and as a DM.

[@tigrewulph]

Weis and HIckman, are underappreciated fantasy writers, IMO. Their Dragonlance novels are awesome.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Yep.

[@ronniejdio9411]

The first 6 were classics. They created some.great characters. They also created some terrible ones. And kender

[@tigrewulph]

@@ronniejdio9411 Tasslehoff is a gem. I also really like their non DnD stuff.

[@dminard1]

Aside from dragon lance they gave us some of the best worlds in fantasy. Both together and separately they deserve to be spoken in the same breath as people like Tolkien and R. A. Salvatore. People who are not only masters of their craft but who shaped our idea of what that even means.

[@rexhazelwood7302]

agreed, after the DL series, I thought the twins series was also very well done. The fact that so many other authors took to writing about Krynn afterward is certainly a compliment to Weis & Hickman's writing ability.

[@darthremy1802]

I started out as a power gamer, somehow over about 10 years and alot of DMing I became a story focused player. I remember joining AL cause I didn't have a group and half a dozen sessions in someone asked the DM who was the best player and I was genuinely surprised to be told I was the better roleplayer and for being complimented on never breaking character and for about the past 5 year now I've been trying to get my old roommate to build a story based character, sometimes I'm afraid I can be a bit pushy but I will say he's come a long way from the character who's only personality could be summed up as "my character's religion requires me not to wear pants" or "my character's life goals are to do really inappropriate things to important plot devises" in my current campaign he actually made a paladin with a backstory and a character arc that fit my narrative, and when his paladin gave his life so the party could escape a dungeon that was maybe too hard I was both sad and very proud of him.

[@benvoliothefirst]

I think you turned that player into a better human being!

[@vincejester7558]

@@benvoliothefirst No. They didn't. They browbeat a guy who was enjoying the game into doing stuff they didn't want to, in order to shut them up.

[@eastvanisfun]

​@@vincejester7558yeah god forbid somebody learn humility and sacrifice

[@vincejester7558]

@@eastvanisfun You learn those things in real life. Not in a "make believe" game.

[@jonathandurbin5534]

Thank you so much for quoting Star Wars correctly!

[@LakeVermilionDreams]

What, "maclunky"?!

[@ronniejdio9411]

Mandela effect

[@benvoliothefirst]

Agreed. Far too easy to do it wrong in the world today.

[@IraRomfh]

I know I am bit late to the video, but the professor just nailed the Vader line. No extra "Luke" in sight.

[@Aragura]

You broke that down and explained it very well. Even at the ripe age of 51, still have friends that have never migrated to the other end and simply want to kick down that door. I left a cookie on the table for the metric, see you next week

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Thanks for the cookie!

[@richmcgee434]

There's nothing inherently superior about either form of roleplaying, it's simply a matter of preference how any given table approaches it. Most groups fall somewhere between the two extremes IME, with even the most dedicated roleplayer sometimes wanting to just kick back and have a good challenging fight and even the most clinical tactician sometimes wanting to try some negotiation to see if there's an easier way past the latest challenge.

[@OldManRogers]

Cannot agree more! What's fun is the strong/powerful character who gets that way to achieve a goal but then gives up the power for another reason or after fulfilling their goal, but again character expectations and stuff!

[@purience1502]

Perhaps your best video ever!! Which is saying a lot since everything you touch is gold

[@StarlasAiko]

According to Steven King, characters in a book also have the freedom to hijack the story...

[@patrickbuckley7259]

This is half true, the charecter is still subject tot he authors whims, but the charecter also has a nature, a personality, and a set of ideals and flaws. If the writers chooses to stay true to a charecters nature thene that charecter can completely change the story from the writers origional vision, but the wrtiter still has the ability to change all of these things, tweak them slightly, or remove agency from the charecter in some way to accomplish the results they desire. Neither rout is inharently bad writing in my oppinion, it's all a matter of measure, and execution's.

[@TheBlidget]

I see someone else has traveled to the Tower

[@GreasusGoldtooth]

Can confirm.

[@pez5767]

Girthy episode! Great points, PDM! Funny enough, watching this made me realize that my primary antagonist in my campaign is faceless and therefore limiting the story for my PC because they don't know what they're facing off against.

[@Bwbyars]

I just finished a 5-year campaign this Saturday night. I had asked my PC three questions: who did he love the most? what thing did he love the most? and, what idea did he love the most? These three questions carried me so well through so many questions, situations, dilemmas throughout the campaign. Highly recommended.

Hey Prof DM, it's been 4 years but it reminded me of a Samurai class back in ADnD, our group used to create custom classes and I was playing a Samurai Elf, based on book of 5 rings. But, my samurai had a heart condition, everytime We should roll for fear effects, My character had to roll a constitution saving, if i would ever roll 1, i would have a sudden death without any chance to be ressurrected. Ironically, my character was the sole survivor of our group and to honor his comrades he created a memorial deep in the forest where we had a home and there all his friends were resting in peace. In the end, my character was known as the swordsman that could cut an entire army with a single weapon swing, cause I've paid bards to sing about our glories and most adventurers avoided that forest, considering it a very dangerous place to go. From a ill samurai, to the keeper of his friends graves... Oh, btw, I've got a medallion that granted me immunity to fear so I could not fear my condition any longer, that was the last reward I've got on that character as a player, after enduring the ordeal of banshees and all sort of undeads (our group was focused on purging the undead from the area) Good old times, we used to love the THAC0 rule at that time.

[@thatoneguy2057]

Good stuff. Sometimes I feel I'm a weird hybrid because I suck at role play but enjoy a story. I see the role play to war gamer difference as more of a spectrum. In my weird end of the spectrum players look down on their characters like greek gods both giving them their actions and commenting on how those actions played out. Player: I fire an arrow at the dragon DM: It Misses. The dragon shoot a flame back at the PC, it misses. Player: LOL My arrow bounced off the dragon waking him up he was to tired to shoot straight. DM: Right! He woke up with a fiery cough wondering what dumb adventurer had the audacity to fire an arrow at him. The story is still their but it isn't role played conventionally. It leans further towards the war gaming side but not so hard that weaknesses would not be an option. There's a lot of ways to play the game. That's part of whats so fun about it.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

It IS a spectrum. I may use that in a future video.

[@benvoliothefirst]

I love players who contribute to the narrative and take some of the work off the DM's plate!

[@vincejester7558]

@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Spectrum implies only one dimension. Where is my puzzle solving and world exploring on this spectrum?

[@vincejester7558]

@@benvoliothefirst If you skip the contrived "narrative", yer plate is empty for fun stuff like weird monsters and fantastic treasures, and diabolical puzzles.

[@SeanLaMontagne]

Holy shit, one of your PCs being in love with the villain?!? I love it You can have one of those "Zuko decision under ba sing se" moments where one of your PCs takes the villains side in a big climactic fight.

[@FarmerRiddick]

Professor, you have provided some great tools for my tool kit, both as a DM and as a player. Very informative! I added this video to my saves 'RP Dungeon Craft' list. In my youth, I was a tactical hack and slasher. As I got older, I started to really embrace RP - The stage craft, if you will. Cheers!

[@dantherpghero2885]

I Love ALL Dungeon Craft videos! Especially his back catalog.

[@Jason98904]

Great stuff. In my experience virtually every new player starts life on the power-gaming side of things. My best technique for moving them to the role-playing side of things (passed on from my mentor GM), is, when my when they finally fail at something, make it spectacular and hilarious. For some at least, this becomes an "ah-ha moment" sometime down the road when they realize what they remember most about the game was that time their super-optimized character did not meet their performance expectations.

[@DusBeforeDawn2008]

Funny I didnt think this was as common an experience. I mean I started as a power gamer but I was surprised on reflection one my epiphany moments was during a one shot call of cthullu game where I had fucked up in several ways causing us to fail, I expected the table to be mad but they were laughing and having fun and I kind of realised I didn't need to be a try hard anymore. Though the other was during a "boss" fight was a gang leader/campaign villain Cyber punk when he kicked the grenade back to me I realised TTRPGs were not video games, enemies would be have like people, not crude ai and the game was a lot wider than the rules written

[@haveswordwilltravel]

Professor, this is my favorite of your videos this far. Since I first started watching your channel I have wondered how to get character arcs to work in the game, and you have graciously provided the answers. What I have been doing wrong was not communicating with the players on what their arc could be, and also, trying to create arcs for the wrong type of player ls (i.e. power gamers). Thank you.

[@macdameron9321]

I love the 5 points. And that you related them to media that I know. It really helps.

[@irontemplar6222]

14:00 I am going to counter your argument in regard's to Denarius Targaryen. She is from the start of her rule, to the end of her rule. A Tyrant, and its her way or the highway (so long as those who walk it a paved with dragon fire) She is no different then any of the previous tyrants the Targaryen's have produced. The only difference is some of the things she tyrants such as her being aginst slavery. We the audience agree with, and I have no shortage of players who have tried to do the same thing in my games. Usually with disasterus consequence's. However she was from start to finish an Evil Tyrant. One who always wanted to get her way, and only occasionally acquiesced to her advisors who held her at bay at times.

[@joshualinley4417]

This video NEEDS to have more attention paid to it. Every player, every GM should see this IMO. Wonderfully done Professor!

[@dadadajasper]

A solid dive into Character Arcs 10/10

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Thanks. Weirdly, a lot of people are watching that old video today, for some reason.

[@dadadajasper]

@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 I've been seeing quite a bit of old videos popping up on mine and other people's youtube pages. Might be an algorithmic trend. Got me back into rewatching a lot of your videos again.

[@pettersonystrawman9291]

It's really important to get both the DM and player on a same page about the style of the game. "Role player" will get bored, if there's no drama, and "Gamer" will get frustrated and or bored, if there is no robust system and solid opposition.

[@linus4d1]

I'm playing a loner as a character arc. Her flaw is that she is a loner and is learning how to operate in a team and the benefits of teamwork.

[@darkemperor95]

Funnily enough, my best friend and his brother are the 2 different kinds of players. At first, they were both power players, my friend choosing a barbarian and his brother a rogue. The more their first adventure went on, the more I saw my friend's character move away from the "My goal is to kill everything" to a more of a "I'm an ex soldier and I follow my duty". I still throw his character in from time to time as a passing NPC or patron in a tavern and he agrees that his character is the type of an adventurer that roams the land with his new friends to protect and care for the common people

[@jakestaples8498]

Many years ago, I made a new character for a Rifts game and chose a runaway slave borg. A few other players pointed out that a mercenary borg was much more powerful. I replied that I wanted a role-playing focused character. As a GM, I’ve had to balance groups of players, some of whom want role-playing and others are focused on dominating combat. Thanks for another good video

[@zacharygadzinski3147]

Shouldn't a tabletop rpg be a balance of both? For example, a nuetral good/ lawful good orc barbarian who wants to build a kingdom and be the strongest champion in the ring. Now add in that his tribe was decimated by evil elves, a missing druid mother and swords bard love interest coupled with an unknown father who is described as having one eye. A story like that could lead to the revelation that his father is Gruumsh thus making the hero a demigod who strives to now become a deity.

[@ZeroFighter]

Someone once took a chance on my Star Wars character application; a Twi'lek slave. My character was brought into the life of intergalactic slavery at a young age, the exact specifics left intentionally vague. Suffice it to say, when the game started, my character was the recent addition to a collection of slaves working for a Hutt on Nar Shaddaa, and was the Hutt's latest favorite. Some mercenaries came through, looking for work, and the Hutt sent them on an assignment, and also sent my character to keep tabs on them, and to report any 'disruptions' the group may cause, or other issues that they may fail to report. Effectively, my character was to make sure that if they screwed anything up, the Hutt would know, and dock pay accordingly, especially if they lied about it. After some success working together, the party was allowed to 'rent' my character to continue helping them off-world, which they did. The job that was taking them off-world was given by a character who did not tolerate weakness, and so taught my character a few tricks about using and concealing a weapon, despite not having much in the way of clothing. With the weapons, there also came a confidence boost, and a greater acceptance of risky behavior. When it came time to actually leave, my character began to throw some weight around, asking the dock crew why our ship hadn't been cleared for departure yet, and to get to it. With the successful expedition of our clearance to leave, the rest of the party started taking on roles within the ship, such as pilot, gunner, navigator, etc... but my character didn't have any such skills. What they did have though was a list of contacts, including the Hutt that owned her, and the NPC who had armed her, and was currently giving them their assignment off-world. As the only one in contact with either individual, that meant relaying information to the rest of the party, and because of that, when the party arrived at the destination, the Twi'lek slave stepped up to deal with the Imperial docking authorities regarding the docking fees, reason for landing, what cargo was on board, etc. While the rest of the party did the illegal work they'd come to do, my character began making arrangements to start up a legitimate ferry business, taking passengers across the system as long as their destination was along the way of our own. This would permit us to make some of our money back during these journeys in order to keep fueled up, as well as maintain the ship, and top off supplies as the need arose, plus turn a small profit. Essentially, after a few months, my character was still by law a slave, but had gone from someone who hid behind others, to walking right up to Imperial officers as the captain of a ship, and leader of a legitimate transportation operation with all of the legal paperwork and authority to do business freely while the rest of the crew took care of the shadier aspect of things.

[@douglasfairbanks2491]

Best channel for ttrpgs👍

[@Sandul666]

I think i finally put together a group of players who are looking for a session like this. They have each been more than happy to have 1 on 1 time with me while i prepare the campaign developing their character backstories, all of which are intertwined either in the world i'm creating or intertwined with each other's character backgrounds to flesh out a more interesting world. I'm excited and very nervous and hope that I'm able to give them the campaign that they are expecting. It's extremely low magic, like game of thrones, with extremely limited magic items, and no magic classes. :)

[@midnightwaps]

“You end up in a pet store.” Please don’t tell my players that. They don’t need more ideas on how to go shopping. We have spent so many sessions shopping 😅 but whatever they have fun doing.

[@DokHome]

I really appreciate how you stress out that one category shouldn't be forced to play as the other one. As someone who doesn't like roleplaying but enjoys watching other players doing it, I found myself in some difficult situations when the DM wanted me to delve deeper into the character backstory or create unwanted bonds with the other characters. Unlike many players, I never develop a strong attachment to my characters, therefore being pushed towards more roleplaying has always killed the mood for me, considering I'm mostly interested into the main story of the campaign, trying some new classes/features and, above all, have fun with a group of friends.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

DokHome Thanks! I’m glad It resonated with you.

[@RyuuKageDesu]

Thank you for this unintentional birthday gift.

[@elgatochurro]

There's so much great info I have to take notes to remember it all... Or give another rewatch

[@greenvash]

Another insightful video, thanks Professor!

[@HEZAKIAL]

The dragonlance novels are pure gold. For some reason Sturm was always my favorite character. I liked them all but I really liked him. But you don't really get to pick your favorite. I've also always had a soft spot for Boromir.

[@wolfsfroth]

I think the solution for the power gamers is to reward them with overcoming personal limitations, that is get them to consider weaknesses as opportunity, and secondly to use a morality mechanism to make them deal with the choices they make. Your suggestions here are good, but I think something like a wisdom/willpower penalty that accumulates over time - and it could be a specific weakness like a temper, or lust... something that enemies can exploit to heighten drama. "Noone calls me chicken!" -Marty

[@jeremygriffin620]

This is your best video so far, at least as far as I am concerned. My players fall neatly into the two major camps. LOL much thought in this one, and by that I mean I must give it much thought.

[@adamjchafe]

The very last point is excellent. Your players are going to expect you to leverage their flaw. But you never will, until that perfect time.

[@rexhazelwood7302]

My first ever Paladin was suffering a crisis of faith after witnessing the corruption of the church. He broke from under the control of the local bishop which did not go over well and was actually being hunted to be brought back for trial. The rest of the party was not aware of this of course & it made him somewhat mysterious since he was solemn and a bit aloof. Our little band of heroes learned quickly to place their trust in ole Jorend Haust, when they all learned he would give his life without hesitation to those he now considered his "family".

[@patrickbuckley7259]

When I play I am difnately a both camps kind of guy. Hell, I had a character who's entire schtich was the way he was always able to leverage his "Weaknesses" like his honor, hunger for romance, or love, and loyalty for his friends and family into powerful advantages. Everyone knew he was on their side, and he always tried to find a solution that benefited everyone, which he was increadibly good at. He always had some spin or twist ready to take advantage of the situation for the benefit of himself and/or his loved ones. I think his greatest weakness would have been if anyone had really screwed him or his family over, well that and the fact that the man was not emotionally stable, I never really got a chance to explore the charecters darker half, but he was the kind of devoted that meant if anyone fucked with him and his they where going to go through some major shit, but it sadly never came up.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Thanks for sharing!

[@vincejester7558]

Yer spending way too much time thinking about an imaginary character in a fantasy game.

[@patrickbuckley7259]

@@vincejester7558 That's part of what makes playing said game fun. I get to create and sculpt a character, define their persona and develop their personality, and maybe learn a bit about myself along the way.

[@vincejester7558]

@@patrickbuckley7259 Exploring feelings and emotions and identity don't interest me. I am an adult, and did that in real life, with real people, In workplaces and classrooms and social gatherings. I ow who I am. I understand other peoples' experience. I want a game to escape all that drivel and rot.

[@christophernorthcutt2571]

Thank you Proff. You have caused me to reflect on my current PC and I need to give him some flaw for my DM (wife) to take advantage of.

[@animatorFan74]

This is absolutely brilliant...... really clear and great advice. :) I have one distinct player who's the obvious power gamer and the rest are story/character driven guys. It's actually comforting to hear "don't expect the power gamer to become a story gamer at any stage, it just won't happen". Takes some weight off my shoulders. :) Definitely gonna use a lot of the advice offered in this video. Awesome. :)

[@antieverything1]

I have a PC in my current game who volunteered the idea of owing money to the Zhentarim during character creation.

[@ivanvega1005]

That last bit, about not explioting their weakness, I can dig it. Thanks.

[@animalchandler]

Some interesting points here. I used to be a power gamer, and still have some of those habits but having been a DM recently I’ve come to realise that for me, stories are where the heart of a game comes from.

[@lordmatteus]

The thumbs down is from an edgelord who opened up to his DM about his love for the evil countess and was stabbed to death in his sleep.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Good one.

[@benvoliothefirst]

Seriously, this tip is too important to be at the end of the video!

[@livefree1981aw]

Love your avatar.

[@lungtoast]

Once again you have lightened the load of storytellers. Thanks, PDM.

[@threehundredwords]

Yet another switch of my vote for your "best video" you have made. Well done, Professor.

[@remixtheidiot5771]

This was very helpful prof.! I wish I had players in to story as you have, but I have players who play for the game and not the story sadly. They are the players that as you called them - in it only to dominate and fulfill a power fantasy. I tried forcing it once but as you said, there is not much you can do on players and all you can do is respect it. I am the only player who wants a story, but the problem is I am a GM. I came up with a good enough compromise and that is, my NPC's are the ones who get all the arcs! On my current campaign we are playing, the main conflict of the story is that they must protect this poor girl named Mirai, she has no memory of herself and all she knows is that an evil organization wants to take her back from the party so they can do experiments on her. She's the classic mysterious past type character. She starts off frail and useless but overtime she hopefully turns into a woman able to protect herself. Currently in our campaign Mirai has finally noticed how much of a burden she is to the party, thanks to her the organization keeps sending goons after goons after them to kill them, that realization triggers an emotional outburst which in turn also activates her magic potential that has been hiding within her all this time. Now her magic is out of control and she keeps hurting everyone around her, causing her to be even more conflicted about herself and now next session the players will have to fight her and let her understand herself better so she can control her magical powers!

[@HateSonneillon]

I was thinking about this too about a month ago and my plan for my campaign has a lot of the same philosophies. I was thinking to look at their motivations and consider how characters always think they know what they want, but what they NEED is something else. So I looked at my players character motivations and why they want what they want, then think of a need based on that. Additionally I would create various NPCS as "mentors" that will suggest to change their ways while there is also various NPCs as "tempters" that tell them they're doing it "right" while clearly not being in a fortunate circumstance themselves. Example, one of my player's character wants power, because he was mistreated by his family growing up. This suggests they have a resentment for their family and perhaps a need for real family. Easily, the party can become his new family, so I would create characters that suggest the party looks like a great team as well as NPCs that had a good party once but they left leaving their team to die and say they're fine but have become alcoholics or something. This is an experiment though so I'll see if it works. I figure as long as I make the game about my players then it can't possibly be bad for them. I hope so at least.

[@vincejester7558]

So, as a DM you think its yer job to force yer sad fan fic down yer player's throats?

[@MrMccarthycdxx]

@David Hager I couldn't agree more, Dragonlance was the first fantasy series I read and it blew me away. The care taken in crafting that world and the characters in it is incredible.

[@ftkinney]

Best part “the countess isn’t gonna stab the bastard Deville without a savings throw or something”

[@Drunk-Mosquitos]

Thanks for this video. Been looking at your to involve my players more. I'm a newer DM and have one who is into roleplay that I'm struggling with ideas for, one who is down for a story but is more into power playing, and a third who loves combat but had been blown away anytime a character's backstory find it easy into the story. You and the comments have been very helpful in guiding me.

[@soloquester]

Great vid! I've been reading A Hero with a Thousand Faces and love it. Nice tie-in with the Dragonlance Saga for reference. I've been DMing with 5 newer players. They have a hard time learning the rules let alone role-playing their characters and playing up their vulnerabilities. Role-playing their character is such an abstract idea for them. Love what you said about not exploiting weakness for the sake of doing it, very true. Vulnerabilities are story seeds in disguise.

[@TabletopWitchCRAFT]

Kittens and Ferrets...haha... great video Dan!

[@jamesalexhowlett]

I’m glad you got the empire strikes back quote right, everybody always says: No luke, I’m your father.

[@fleetcenturion]

10:20 - Kitiara is their half-sister, not stepsister. She was also especially bonded to Raistlin, having saved his life when he was an infant, and their mother could not care for the twins. Sadly, the authors never really expanded upon this like they should have when it came to their relationship, though the ordeal obviously left its impression upon her. "My first battle was against the Gods... and I won!"

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

You are correct.

[@fleetcenturion]

@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 - Damn! I must say that your community response time is nothing short of outstanding.

[@jamesrizza2640]

You don't know the power of the dark side, lol. This was a great video on story arcs, I couldn't have said it better. I will add only one thing. With the advent of VTT's, [Virtual Tabletops], it has become much easier to find players who prefer story arcs. Simply mine for them. When I advertise my campaign, I was state what I am looking for in a player. I also state why other players might not enjoy the campaign I make because it involves story arcs. This way they don't waste my time and I don't waste theirs. A second option is what I do with mini campaigns, [those that will only last a few real-time months. I pre-generate the base characters with story arcs and allow the players to choose among these personalities. They still role there attributes, choose their feats, skills and classes. Each personality has a limitation that only that character must follow and knows about. So far this has worked very well, although I do prefer your method with the voluntary aspect. Great video! Keep it up.

[@Daniel40freeman]

I was once part of a group that valued the story more than Hack 'n' Slash gaming. I miss that group. Now, the group I am playing with is half and half. Most of them are new and want to kill everything that comes in our path...but I try to guide them to other possibilities. I am no longer the DM as I have passed the mantle to my son but was a DM for over 25 years. I use my knowledge to help the newer players.

[@hapijoel7569]

Super useful, thank you! Current campaign has just reached the point where I need to dig into backstories and story arcs and this was a great help.

[@timleeds4346]

Another great Video. Your recommendation and suggestions have made my son and mine’s game awesome. Since I have been watching your channel my son is getting more into the game than before. Keep up the great work.

[@blitzthekraken9832]

Really great video! Flaws are the hardest to develop. Players have a hard time letting go. But every great hero has a mass flaw. And if you play those flaws, you will get a very rewarding story. If you don't, you will get game of stats and numbers. In the end, and sometimes it takes years for people to understand this, is that we are a civilization driven by storytelling --- are humanity literally thrives on it. Eventually, one way or another, numbers and stats will take second to players, just takes time.

[@stephenkotowych8105]

Love PDM's stuff and Dungeon Craft in general. Always learn something new or get a fresh take on how to D&D. The notion of character arcs is one I'd never considered for the game outside of just "This happened to the character, and then that happened to the character..." Can't wait to incorporate these ideas into my next campaign!

[@Alefiend]

Definitely one of your better videos, Prof.

[@camerondilbon2248]

Best video I have seen here as of now. Thanks!

[@TheGamesNexus]

This was a helpful primer on the topic, thank you!

[@rippip6160]

Hell, a great video from start to finish. Wakes up the need to play

[@RasmusRasmussen]

One of your best videos (that I have watched). Spot on!

[@davidrose7938]

A lot of great advice. I can use it to be both a better DM and player. 👍

[@tyrellnelson490]

Great video! I've only recently crossed that bridge and have had the chance to finish 1 character's arc. Since then I've been looking for more answers on ways to build characters. Many KZbinr's with book writing channels talk about this, but your the first to talk about character arcs in a D&D context. I would really love to see more on this topic.

[@khrage9429]

Great video as always! I remember when I first got power gamers interested in character arcs back in 2e days. The Skills and Powers rule set was loved by my min max minded players and there were flaws you could take to get more build points. One of the best was “Powerful Enemy” that gave a lot of points. Ended up leading to some great games and some of the most memorable times at the table. My friends still talk about them almost twenty five years later when we get together. Highly encourage using “bait” like this to get a power gamer to try playing a flawed character.

[@generalsci3831]

Strangely, the model I use for designing my RPGs these days is actually an old video game from the 90's: Super Metroid. I think most players that finish it simply collect their power-ups and smash the big bad at the end with an exploding planet. Simple and to the point. But, for the people that explore the game will see that the lead adopts an alien as her own child, that child is stolen, and results in fighting a creature called the Mother Brain for the fate of this baby alien that (SPOILERS) ... Dies in the fight. It's a story of a misfit family and tragedy for the player looking for purpose and meaning. I tend to design my adventures in a similar way in that the plot is there for the players that seek it. Otherwise, the game side of role-players still level up their characters and get their power-ups.

[@vincejester7558]

...and a ragtag band of underdogs who learn that the greatest treasure is the friends they made on their journey into ... Blah, Blah, Blah.

[@generalsci3831]

@@vincejester7558 Sounds like you'd just be there for the power-ups, my guy. Which is perfectly fine. :)

[@vincejester7558]

@@generalsci3831 I prefer level 0 to 7 campaigns. Slugging the same three orcs with more and more HP over and over is just as boring as the Kumbaya or edge lord stuff. Give me a world! Marco Polo campaigns for me. New things.

[@generalsci3831]

@@vincejester7558 I didn't realize I was advertising smashing three orcs over and over again. Me thinks you're assuming things about my games.

[@vincejester7558]

@@generalsci3831 No no no. The nature of power gaming is to get bigger weapons to beat up bigger monsters, repeat. The monsters don't really change. They just have more hit points and do bigger damage. Its a failure of adventure games of the digital and analog variety.

[@ArachnidSentinl]

I have to say, this is perhaps my favorite of all your videos, Professor. I wish more people were having these sorts of discussions. I get that D&D will always lean heavily on the simulationist side of the fluff-crunch continuum, but I'm a firm believer it can do both (and is at its best when it does). The current culture seems to lean more toward the rollpayer/crunchiness (nothing wrong with that, just not for me), which is a big reason I long ago switched to Fate, etc. Your videos have inspired me to step back behind the screen and give D&D another go.

[@brokenterrain]

Love your videos. Thank you and keep em coming.

[@GreylanderTV]

As an alternative to the "Gollum test" just ask your players if they've watched Critical Role and wish their games could be like that. Then you know which side they are on.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Good one.

[@gidofter_lukge]

The annoying side?

[@DavisCentis]

This is, far and away, your best video. Great job! I just created a character as based around a weakness - I'm a Dragonborn Sorcerer that doesn't know they're a dragonborn (thinks he's human) and believes his powers and appearance to be part of some curse. He believes the curse is because he accidentally killed his (abusive) mother. He's afraid of himself and his abilities - which only seem to be growing stronger over time. I never thought though of what this character would be willing to die for. He's a teenager, so his attitudes are very wild and a bit unpredictable. I will try and think on this. Thank you!

[@dagonpoint]

Hands down, one of your best videos to date.

[@joesgotmore]

I love using this. I did this to great effect once when a player I DMed for wanted to play a warlock who 's patron was one of torment and basically gave him power but decieved him into thinking his late wife was still alive and adventuring with him (basically a minor illusion of his sick wife) that would request he find medicine and give it to her. He also had a daughter that was taken from him when she was a child while he was watching her. The patron promised him that one day you will confront this person. Much later in the campaign after the party saved some noble's from being influenced by intellect devourers they find out the city is going to be assaulted during a festival for the dead. One of the advisors to the nobles is a warlock with a young apprentice both have their faces obscured. They seem nice enough but this gets the players suspicious. As he tries to see the young apprentices face they back away claiming it is part of their ritual like a vow of silence. But he does see she has the same white hair as his daughter but without enough evidence he can't confront them before the festival that they need to go and make sure it is safe. Of course the day of the dead festival erupts in a melee of undead and other fanatics battling it out the advisors where there as well. During the fight he manages to see it is his daughter and proceeds to focus his fight on the warlock. The warlock and the assistant fight the party with the young girl often attempting to jump in the way and take the damage. And as the warlock is losing the fight he tells the player if you kill me you will kill your daughter as we are bound together. The player agonizes over this for all of 1 minute real time then says at least she will no longer be corrupted by your lies she will know I love her and I hope she can forgive me. The whole party was helping by this point even after he tried to taunt him into a one on one fight. However as fate would have it the player dealt the final blow. And as the warlock fell while locks of hair fell from under the hood revealing the warlock was in fact his daughter and the assistant faded away as an illusion. The whole party ran up and tried to heal her as the player ran there first and held her in his arms. However, the injuries where to severe and story wise is would have cheapened it if I just let them heal her back up.

[@mattalford3862]

This was a really great, insightful video. Really enjoyed it. And I loved the references to the Dragonlance novels. They were the first fantasy novels I ever read. I gave them to my son in his early teens and he also loved them. We still talk about those characters.

[@dreadmorg]

This is a great vid PDM! Saved this one to my D&D reference playlist. Bravo!

[@broton69]

Great video PDM, one of your best. I've finally failed(?) my will save, I'm heading for Patreon as I type...

[@kevinheinz9819]

I used to be a Roll Player, in my maturity I'm evolving into a Role Player....Looking for interesting traits and Flaws to play....And finding the Role play momments come easier with a solid character "arc"....I also left the game some 15yrs ago and came back more mature. in my current group we have an even split of Role players and tacticians....its working so far

[@gabrielgutierrez1419]

Yes! the moment of the day I was waiting for

[@bonbondurjdr6553]

Hail Ceasar!

[@gabrielgutierrez1419]

@@bonbondurjdr6553 Salve amicvs

[@jathomred1005]

There is also the possibility of them believing all their family was killed, but in actuality there is another branch still alive

[@Astartes36]

Loving it Professor! Your topics continue to inspire and help me to push my limits.

[@andsmith3780]

One of your best videos dude

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Thanks. Oddly, it's not performing well, so please share it on your Tweeter or whatnot. Cheers!

[@thewhitefelldm2664]

I allways referred to MadMax as a perfect char arc as he has to build up just to loose everything and become primal to rise into his lost humanity. Most of my players take into account that each one of them is a hero in there own way. This is were i as a the Whitefell DM made a critical decision to pick one player and crafted that player to be the hero. The rest of the group desides how they want to be involved in the story arc not the hero arc which i make very clear. This allows my players to grow and choose there own paths to fame! While the story can allways continue even if the hero dies. We simply pick the next player who has the most fame at that point which intern transforms that player journey forever and enter into there own custome hero arc they have allready ben building. Thank You Sincerely The Whitefell DM

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Thanks for taking the time to comment!

[@BTsMusicChannel]

Love Joseph Campbell! Read him in my early 20s for the first time. I found out later in my education that his generic myth is based on Vladmir Propp's generic fairy tale. 2:59 In a sandbox, you have to impose some sort of timer (as Hankerin' calls it) or a doom clock of some sort. If you don't get on to your objective, the goblins are going to get the Skull of Gronzok the Smasher and become so powerful that they will be able to enslave any pets they might own. 4:49 Not every "game" person is a power gamer. I think what makes the tactical end interesting is dealing with the strengths and weaknesses (including character flaws/virtues/motivations) that force the players to work together and cooperate as a team. I cannot stand power gamers who simply manipulate rules or acquire the best weapons and armor and magic items, who have zero tactical skill or creativity, and who want invulnerable characters that roll over everything. By the way, I also love role play -- whether it be making decisions based on character motivations/flaws/virtues, or social encounters. I just like to see people be clever (or at least think about playing smartly) and work together to exploit strengths and cover for weaknesses, not just brutal domination by a solo robot who really wants to play a video game. The difference between a tactical player and a power gamer is that a tactical player has to play intelligently, whereas a power gamer does not. I see power gaming as selfish. Love the voice effects. :D /

[@vileyj6258]

Power gaming done right isn't really that bad, as long as the player can rationalize how their character is being built. "How did your character learn that combination of abilities?" "Why is your character obsessed with becoming the best?" "How does your character know that magic item?" I make my gamers answer some questions like these about their characters during creation. It tends to force a bit of role-play, and hasn't backfired yet, even with the power gamers. My problem usually stems from power roleplaying, or building overly complex characters that are almost impossible to play. Even with no murder hobos, I hear, "It's what my character would do," anytime they disrupt the table with their convoluted roleplaying. Scariest part is one of them wanted to DM lately. It's a mess and I'm about to have to pull the plug on his game, as few of the players are enjoying it, myself included. He's just not ready. I do see your point, power gaming, without it pushing a narrative, is usually a lackluster experience.

[@BTsMusicChannel]

@@vileyj6258 i agree with characters that are too complicated are problematic. You need to design a character that can work with a team, not some selfish brat. Players who go overboard with role play or power gaming tend to be selfish brats in a game environment -- they are not team players. When I design a character (or even a world as a DM), i think less is more. What you need to think about is what is the present situation, and then imagine what the past was, then find a few "turning points" (i.e., key life events for a character, or important historical events for a world, like the catastrophes in Robert Howard's "The Hyborean Age") that led to the present. For a character, I will want to explain how they got some virtue/flaw or skill or even an ability score (how did they become so strong, for example). to what are they loyal or disdainful. You just need to know their source of motivation so you can empathize with the character, get in that character's skin (like an actor would, not like a selfish player would), and figure out what that character would do in the given situation. But it cannot be an on/off switch!! I played with this one clown whose character "always forgot the plan," so inevitably after spending 30 mins of game time to figure out what we were going to do, he'd ruin it for the rest of the players by doing something else. finally I said, 'What the fuck? Can you at least roll a die to see if your guy can stay on track once in a while, or are you going to waste our time every fucking game?" On the other hand, I have played with power gamers who insist on holding everyone up until they get plate mail and the weapon they want instead of dealing with a little austerity. What do they think, the middle ages had Walmart for their convenience? That is just selfish play. Basically, any player who cannot go along with a team and slows them down on their objectives every fucking time is not worth playing with. I recommend every player read Gygax's AD&D Players Handbook (from 1978) "Successful Adventures" (pp. 107-109) before they try to socialize with other players at the gaming table. Between video game like power gaming and the overly-dramatic, it's become a lost art since WOTC took over the franchise. Murder hobos i think are really the fault of the DM not imposing strict enough consequences for bad behavior. Power gaming leads to murder hoboism, as do the "balanced encounters" of 5e. Murder hoboism is seeing the world that the DM crated as a place to loot and pillage and kill, a psychopathological approach to game play that sees everyone in the world as one-dimensional. The DM has to bring it to life and let the players feel the friction of the world vicariously through their characters. You have to help them to find a connection to the world. PS -- i recommend that any power gamer read Lloyd Alexander's "The Chronicles of Prydain" to figure out how interesting weak characters can be.

[@vincejester7558]

Full on role players are no more intelligent than power gamers. They are just more tedious to sit at the table and listen to yammer on about their imaginary life.

[@vincejester7558]

@@BTsMusicChannel Backstory= 5 words on an index card.

[@BTsMusicChannel]

@@vincejester7558 That works too... I usually write one short paragraph -- where do they come from, 1-2 experiences they had that led to something that motivates them, how they came to be an adventurer. i can work with that much.

[@darklightstudio]

"Psychology of Players", spoken like a true Professor :)

[@marketbroiler24]

Vader? Luke’s father?! Where was the spoiler alert?!

[@rkgrkg]

haha, I was just going to ask that.

[@nicolasickovic7432]

Same! If this were a personal conversation we can talk star wars all day long. I'm surprised lord of the rings didn't get spoiled first when discussing the hero's journey..

[@SMunro]

Just remember, during the interrogations aboard the deathstar, vader did terrible things to his strong willed daughter and she didnt break. Yet you tell your punk ass son you are his father and he cries and jumps to his death.

[@lungtoast]

@@SMunro Too funny! Too awesome! Thank you.

[@richardfortier]

2:27 epic spoiler. Aside from that, amazing video as usual. :)

[@jeremywalsh5666]

I still roll my characters the old way. If they get a low roll, I go with it. So much fun right now to play a Dragonborn with high strength, low intelligence and medium wisdom. he has a heart of gold, but is easily led and loves to smash evil. So much material for comedy.

[@goyasolidar]

The character I'm currently playing is a lizardfolk druid. Our DM required players to come up with a meaningful connection to at least one other character, so I tied mine to the bard. I came up with a backstory where dreams were haunting my character of an impending threat to my swamp homeland, forcing me to go on a walkabout and seek aid in whatever form to forestall the events in those visions. At this stage, my character was a hunter just coming into his powers as a druid somewhat unwillingly, receiving instruction from the spirits of "The Green". On my travels, I came across the bard left for dead in a ditch by bandits. His face had appeared in my dreams so I nursed him back to health rather than kill and eat him, assuming he would lead me to other dream fragments. At some point, while stopped at a roadside inn, the bard coaxed me to play a drum I carried, which I used mainly for rituals and signaling. As we played together, a crowd gathered to watch this unusual performance and in the end we received applause and a few coins. The bard saw this as a business opportunity, and thus was born the two-man musical act of Lightfoot and Longjaw, currently touring the lands of the Swordcoast. The point of me telling this is that I never would have come up with this concept had the DM not forced a backstory connection to exist between the characters. I initially wanted to make a lizardfolk rogue/scout but I ended up with a drum-playing, civilization-curious druid who passes himself off as a dragonborn and performs music for "shinies", all the while constantly on the lookout for dream auguries and trying to draw meaning from those moments (which conveniently serves as more grist for the DM's story mill).

[@robmellesh1530]

Recent subscriber and thank you for providing this trove of info & ideas during these times of trouble. I've been inspired by your channel to return to Mystara with modified rules to disband initiative and streamline combat. My son and will be working collaboratively; I need the college age technomancer to help me curve into using roll20 & discord. Re: the hero's journey. I'd like to recommend the video game Bloodborne as an example of how to subvert the Campbell theories and create a compelling narrative. Thanks again for your work in providing this channel for the greater good and for gaming.

[@sma92878]

These videos are gold, you need a donate button.

[@markgregory3213]

Solid work Professor!