How To FEEL The 7/8 And 7/4 Time Signatures (And Write Groovy Music With Them)

[@johncooperwilde9731]

This channel is essential not just for improving my music but for feeding my curiosity. Thank you so much ❤️

[@marioa.cabutomedina5271]

In Prokofiev's piano sonata op. 83, the third movement is written in 7/8 with the 2+3+2 gropuing.

[@dsaxman1]

Don Ellis' "Turkish Bath" is written in 7/4 with the 1-2/1-2-3/1-2 feel and is how it's noted in my chart.

[@Snavels]

Don Ellis was the absolute master of the odd signature. Strawberry Soup has to be my favorite work from him, but imo that's more art than dance music (although Ellis would probably have loved if you danced to it). He collaborated a lot with Hank Levy who wrote Whiplash (probably his most famous piece) and "A New Kind of Country" for his album 'Shock Treatment' which has this excerpt I love: "At the Cheetah, the Kaleidoscope, or the Carousel, kids are dancing frantically under stroboscopic lights to the big electric sounds of a jazz orchestra. Only get this: They're dancing in 7/4!" 5:35 Whiplash here is another great example of this, in the segments written in 14/8, Levy opted to have it change: 2+2+3+3+2+2 | 3+3+2+2+2+2 | 3+3+2+2+2+2 | 2+2+3+3+2+2 :||

[@Snavels]

Want to clarify, Whiplash was written for 'Soaring'

[@babylemonade2868]

I love how you can make 7/8 time swing. Probably my favourite odd time signature and one of the most common

[@dragonthesharkyt]

6:37 I was trying to learn 7empest by TOOL: the solo section in the middle follows a 7/8 alternating pattern. I figured it as 2+2+2+2+3+3+3+2+2 (or 4+4+9+4 - whichever way you count it, it adds up to 21). And, obviously, the guitar intro follows a different pattern entirely, using a 3+2+3+2+3+2+3+3 (or a 5+5+5+6 - again, adds up to 21). Fun fact

[@HerrLohmann]

wantutri, wantutri, wantu, wantu, wantutri ....

[@mr.heiopei6493]

:D

[@woodlicerule1071]

first song i can think of in 7/8 that is divided into 2+3+2 is “cranes planes and migranes” (very fun bassline for any bassists out there). this video was super helpful though and this can be done with any time signature which is so handy! i think you unlocked something huge for me

[@etobicokeguitarschool]

9/8 is another really cool one for you to explore too. My band has a section of a song where it's primarily 4/4, then there's a bar of 9/8 at the end, so it tricks the listener with a sudden extra half-beat. It also works as a neat little accent to signify the end of the current repetition and the beginning of the next!

[@ME_EV]

I've asked two friends that are internationally renown opera singers for something about music theory. What they sent me to was drekky. I listened to a ditty on MainePublic, and said I wonder what rhythm that was and found this KZbin! Finally someone that is explaining what I have always wanted explained! Thank you! Thank You! Thank You! Thank YOU!

[@MusicTheoryForGuitar]

My pleasure :)

[@antimatter2380]

Quick and dirty rule is if the change happens on the down beat it's x/4. If it happens on the up beat then it's x/8. So since Money changes on the down beat it's in 7/4. Gilmore even stated that he was initially wrong calling it 7/8 and that it was in fact 7/4. He wrote it so I'm gonna agree with him.

[@TheSimonScowl]

This has been the most burning theoretical question to me for well over 30 years. Sounds to me our host is saying that it's meaningless (except wrt notation). But you seem to be saying there is a audible difference? But for a few proud minutes, I UNDERSTOOD the time signature denominator. Thanks pal!

[@antimatter2380]

@@TheSimonScowl thats why I said quick and dirty. If you don't have the composer's sheet music, then you are left trying to figure it out yourself. This "rule" helps me grasp it a bit better.

[@tostare]

The way I understood it is you have to establish the tempo first. Then if it's "a bar plus most of a bar" (Money) then it's 7/4 and if it's "not quite a bar" (eg Jocko Homo by Devo) then it's 7/8. Most songs with 7/8 or 7/4 have a 4/4 section too and you use that to decide which is which, or if not then you just tap your foot along and decide that way on the basis of which feels more natural.

[@swissarmyknight4306]

Roger Waters wrote "Money". Not that Gilmour's opinion is invalid, I agree with him, but he didn't write it.

[@crdrost]

​@@TheSimonScowl Let me offer a very different theory-answer. Like a lot of things (“when is it D# vs Eb”) the difference in x/4, x/8, x/16 comes from written music in staff notation. In staff notation you were expected to describe the pace with an adjective, in rough order from “solemn” to “broad sweeping” to “emotional” to “walking” to “moderate” to “cheerful” to “lively” to “frantic.” So you were meant to listen to the piece and choose one of these adjectives to describe it, except they were written in Italian - grave/largo/adagio/andante/moderato/allegro/vivace/presto. Italian also has diminutives and augmentatives, so “a very emotional pace,” “adagissimo”, “a bit cheerful of a pace,” “allegretto.” Based on those categories a quarter note has a certain approximate/expected duration. The gravé quarter note is expected to be around 2s long, could be 1.5 or 2.5 or even 3, but if your music specified a quarter note 1s long that would be too far away and you'd want to switch it up, treat what you were calling a quarter note as a gravé eighth note. The largo quarter note is expected to be around 1.2s long, the adagio to be 1s long, andante 750ms, moderato 550ms, allegro 450ms, vivace 375ms, presto 325ms. Again these are not exact so only convert them to BPM with some caution “the BPM just needs to be near this reference value not equal to it,” these are g≈30bpm, l≈50, ad≈60, an≈80, m≈110, al≈130, v≈160, p≈185. So when I use a BPM tapper to tap along with this video 1-2-1-2-1-2-3, 1-2-1-2-1-2-3, I find something like 250, 260 “bpm” tapping along with those numbers. If you are going to write something that feels like a very frantic System-of-a-Down song “1and2-1and2-1and2and3and1and2-1and2-1and2and3and...” then I should write “very frantic” or *prestissimo* and then the proper time signature is 7/4. But if he is instead targeting smooth and funky then I should write *moderato* or upbeat swingy I should write *allegro* and then I should write it as 7/8. Or if he wants to play very moody emo with the same speed of 1-2-1-2-1-2-3 counting, some notes sustain for the whole bar or multiple bars, I should describe it as 7/16 (and potentially then regroup the measures into 14/16 and rewrite as 7/8 with an underlying count “1-and-2-and-3-and-4-5-and-6-and-7-and-8”.

[@aylbdrmadison1051]

I think of them this way (in order of importance): 1) Tempo. You generally want your fastest notes to be 32nds and your slowest notes to be whole notes. 2) Accents. This could easily be #1 as well, I think it's possibly because of this that people are so divided about it because people think of accents differently. Not unlike our spoken accents. 3) Ease of reading. Standard notation especially can become a mess if you don't even consider this. As for _Money,_ there's no "wrong" way. I count is as either 7/8 or when I want to amuse myself I'll count it in 4/4 + 3/4.

[@vicmorrison8128]

I blurt out something that muses me and go back and try and figure it out! Occasionally I get something. Cool comment btw!

[@briansgore9103]

(7/4) Shoreline is a very exciting song by Broken Social Scene.

[@vicmorrison8128]

(X+y)×(3-2)×(6÷2) = 17/72 time signature for my tune Concentrated Orange Juice. The songs a squeeze! GREAT CHANNEL!

[@epserps5055]

I watch this lessons and never get tired. Bravissimo, professore.

[@ItsNoidd]

around 4:55 i started feeling like I was listening to a home depot commercial

[@TerryVogelaar]

The song Pisces by Jinjer starts with what I would argue to be 7/4. However, the guitar tabs I found notate it as 3/4 and 4/4 (so they change the time signature every bar). Why do people prefer that? To me, it is much less confusing to just use 7/4 until it really changes to 3/4.

[@timallbritton7329]

Three of a Perfect Pair was a great Bruford example of changing the paradigm - in the chorus, the drums played a two bar pattern in 7/4 against a 7/8 tune. Genesis did some great 7/8 stuff in the ‘70s as well.

[@georgecaraballo]

frame by frame or Discipline King Crimson Rocks them odd times like no one

[@crdt2779]

5:00 a good example of the 1-2 1-2-3 1-2 rhythm is in TOOL's "Invincible" segmenting the melody in such a way makes it so much easier to process and enjoy

[@19boro76]

Another great video!!! I like how Gavin Harrison explained 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 like this: Ta-ka-Ta-ka-Ta-ka-ka (where claps fall into ka, and because we are not counting, but instead we use the syllables it seems easier to follow- in my opinion). I've just subscribed to the channel, keep up the great work your doing!!!! :)

[@pulykamell]

To me, "Money" seems most intuitively notated as 7/4, and I've always thought of it as 7/4, especially since it's swung. I think of it as a quarter note pulse with swung eighths, which, at least in my experience, is more usual and conventional than 7/8 with swung 16ths. I mean, you can think of it that way, sure, but in terms of reading the music, 7/4 makes the most sense to me and would look the most familiar.

[@nquerosaber]

its obviously 7/4 1 (2 +) 3 4 5 6 7 it gives the feel of 1 (2 + 3) 1 2 1 2 people think its 7/8 because they think the second beat is a 16th note triplet, which is not, its just 2 8th notes

[@jtiberk4201]

What great timing for this lesson - I'm taking Solsbury Hill for inspiration this week, in 7/4, and your video helps me interpret and apply. Keep up the great work, Tomasso.

[@stusmith2704]

Really appreciated your insights! It just became clear to me after viewing your post.

[@christianboddum8783]

For me it is important that I can relate rhythms to physical rhythms, so I can feel how they apply to practical moving. When you dance you don't count once you have the rhythm, you move to the rhythm that's important in my book FWIW

[@randomantisicialdude]

I never got really into music theory. The way you teach this was mindblowing for me. Thank you!

[@yordan.traykov]

7/8 rhythm is one of the easiest measures in the traditional Bulgarian (and some other Balkan nations) folklore music :) Try to play for example (9+5)/16 beat, you will like it :) And Don Ellis' piano player was the unforgettable Milcho Leviev from BG, G-d bless his soul!

[@SunKing968]

Cool! Break out the Shopska salad baby!

[@christopherheckman5392]

"5/4 is the grooviest!" "7/4 is the grooviest!" Robert Fripp: Why not both? (Re-forms King Crimson in the 1990s, composes 5 vs. 7 polyrhythm songs)

[@slmjkdbtl]

projekct* have some of the grooviest songs of all time

[@דוראלון-ו4נ]

A good example of a song in a odd time signature with a 1 count is "Electric Sunrise" by Plini. The song is in 13/8 which is counted like this: 1 2 3, 1 2 3, 1 2 3, 1 2 3, 1. And repeating. Great song, I really recommend you to check it out

[@claytarans5005]

Thankyou for free LESSONS💕

[@Aquino42503]

2+3+2 sounds like Coldplay's Death and All His Friends at the end part when theyre singing the "I dont wanna follow death and all of his friends" part

[@nothingmuchado]

Two cool songs in 7... Lucky Seven by Chris Squire and Unsquare Dance by Dave Brubeck

[@satchrules101]

This lesson is Gold !

[@dhaneshs131]

Love these Time signature videos... It would be great to watch one on difference and reasons we use 3/4 n 6/8 with examples... Thanks Tommaso

[@MusicTheoryForGuitar]

What a coincidence... I just finished writing the script for it ;-)

[@dhaneshs131]

@@MusicTheoryForGuitar Wow... Can't wait to watch it...Excited:)

[@HerrLohmann]

@@MusicTheoryForGuitar I'd love to see a video discussing why there can't be a 3/3 time signature. I got asked this and I really had no proper answer to it.

[@randydean23]

I guess it would be hard to argue whether it's "groovy" necessarily, but seeing you are in Canada and in light of his recent passing _ I would be remissed if I didn't mention Rush and Neil Peart's "Freewill" which has sections in 7/4 7/8. Thanks for the continuing great content. Cheers!

[@daddyd543]

Isn't "Tom Sawyer" by Rush also in 7/8?

[@randydean23]

@@daddyd543 yes, but from what I understand it is even more of a mixed meter than Freewill in terms of shifting from 4/4 to 7/8. I admittedly hadn't tried to count that one before and had to look it up! I 😜

[@bouzoukiman5000]

daddyd543 only the signature run. The rest of it is 4/4

[@martifingers]

Inspiring. I think I might possibly manage this ... amazingly good teaching.

[@BJ-fj6jw]

this one is good.. clear explanations with wonderful examples. thorough examination for the layman.. Great job!!!

[@inferior-penguin8661]

Thank you for this, I know my next phase of music is actual theory.

[@jeremiahjones6912]

I really, really love this channel.

[@dougdenny5969]

Thx for helping out with this WHACKY stuff.i really enjoy ur style of teaching

[@brahmburgers]

I've written 2 songs in 7/8 time. One is derived, in part, from a classical tune. The other is an original 'round' (two stanzas sung over & over, similar to row row row your boat) - it's split; 5 & 2. I'm cash poor, so the only way I have to record them is mobile phone with a crappy guitar, ...but I'll get something out on YT b4 2 long.

[@tomboduch8000]

Also, Yanni's song WITHIN ATTRACTION is in 7/8.

[@giannisdanousis5046]

I love you my friend, you are soooo clear!

[@atmghst7112]

2 of my favourite songs are in 7/8! $1.78 by schwank and Marigold by periphery (although the chorus is 4/4)

[@panosagiakatsikas9743]

Ruby Love by Cat Steven is in 7/8. This time signature is typical in Greece, everybody knows to dance (Kalamatianos dance) to it as well.

[@amd5471]

I'm not a guitar player, but this was very helpful. Many thanks!

[@xblinketx]

Alice in Chains - Them bones (except chorus which is in 4/4)

[@sesclaytpoop8525]

And outshined And Spoonman

[@thealexdn-k9d]

Dream Theater - Forsaken (Intro & Verses, but not chorus). Here's some other: Dream Theater - Our New World (main riff); Dream Theater - S2N (this one is quirky 7/8 + 4/4)

[@Guitarplyr1990]

Tool Schism is 2+3 and 2+2+3.

[@popsodda]

this is pure gold

[@Chris.1812]

I've always thought of these time signatures as 4+3, as if it's a full bar (or two) of four beats with one "missing" at the end

[@xmillion1704]

Same here. Even wrote a little 7/4 punk ditty, back in the day, 4+3, but it seems now as if 3+1+3 might fit too because the middle beat of the bar is a rest. 🤷‍♂️

[@malcolm_mal2055]

This can limit yourself in your righting though. There are A LOT of other rhythmic permutations in a bar of 7/4 so you might wanna try those out as well.

[@psilocypher]

If it’s almost a full bar, it’s 7/8. If it’s almost two full bars, it’s 7/4, like Money.

[@ianwilson2709]

Great rundown! I love learning this stuff as a guitarist whose theory is lacking

[@fmsnzil]

First time I have ever understood this! Thank you so much. Really, thank you. No, reeeeally.

[@FortOfBlankets]

Oh hey, I recognize this! This is the time signature for the Home Depot commercials theme!

[@farhanfarooq8410]

You have changed my view about time signatures. it's very interesting God bless Love from Pakistan ❤❤

[@brahmburgers]

I've also got two songs in 13/8. One is an instrumental version of the Beatles' Bungalo Bill. The other is an original instrumental. I'll keep you posted. Thanks for your eye-opening channel!

[@ggsmith48906]

The song that peaked my interest in this subject is "Usual Rules" by Hybrid. Starts as a slow waltz (6/8 time) but the chorus has an extra beat (7/8 time) to the rhythm of 3-3-1.

[@markheighes1218]

Great video!! Really learnt a lot. Make's 7/4, 7/8 measures seem "simples".

[@sp00g37]

when im doing the difference, 7/8 is just 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8, 7/4 can be 4/4+3/4. layering rhythms is such a fun idea, i usually see 3 or 4 ways to layer one set of timing. i like prog metal so ill see some like tool using different sizes bars while a band like periphery will play same size bars but more notes per bar. i was messing in 6/4 and i swear i made money by pink floyd with a major scale (bass). using two patterns of 3/4 with a slide that accounts for an extra note between each. i was off by a note since its 7/4 and i could hear it, but i was enthused by how close i got just for thinking in 6/4

[@smit70NJ]

'La Villa Strangiato' by Rush mixes in 7/8 throughout the song

[@angeljohanngarcia]

Thank you for sharing your knowledge. God bless you!!

[@leandroscottjacques]

This is simply 🤯

[@VoidloniXaarii]

Wonderful. Thank you so very much again. Your explanations are so great

[@AlessandroMantoan]

Nice and interesting video! I've almost never approached to this time signature, with exception of some of the songs quoted here. The purpose is for the music I am composing: I was curious to guess if it was correct 7/8 or 7/4. Everything started from understanding it by intuition, since the draft of my song was like a 4/4 time signature with the last half beat missing. I figured it out and than I met your interesting video: so I will let you here it soon. In the meantime, congratulations for this video!

[@peterprisekin6203]

King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard have a whole bunch of songs and song sections written in 7/x.

[@stevenhopner7879]

You are an inspiring teacher! Thank you!

[@finwailin]

This may have been mentioned in an earlier comment but "Unsquare Dance" by Dave Brubeck is 7/4 and is in the 2+2+3 rhythm you described, with hand-claps on the off beats. It may be what inspired the song you played.

[@MusicTheoryForGuitar]

You are probably right. I heard Don Ellis explicitly said in an interview that he was inspired by "unsquare dance", though I could not find the original interview.

[@theclock...]

Very valuable information!!!! Thank you soo muchhh....can you please make videos on breakingdown the total staff sheet of any song

[@christopherlees1134]

Nice job!

[@happyfamily1568]

what about 1234-123? among all the combinations said, you didn't mention that one. lol :) Nice videos as always!

[@tatin71]

I don't speak English but this video is so good that if I understand it ... thank you very much, like, subscription and activated the bell, kind regards from Lima-Peru. i am using google translator

[@davedrat1]

"Unsquare Dance" by Dave Brubeck uses exactly the same off-beat hand-clapping as the Don Ellis tune

[@1gaia]

You beat me to this comment! :)

[@correametal]

This is the best video on this topic that I have ever seen. Thanks!!!

[@SPINNINGMYWHEELS777]

I loved your lesson it was fun and easy to understand. A great confirmation example you present. And it proves once again where the groove is. 😎

[@raymondscott1793]

Great teacher!

[@diegolikesandiego2141]

2+3+2= the Home Depot jingle! 5:29

[@thejamnasium6447]

the 2+3+2 feel reminds me of a lot of the score in There Will Be Blood by Johnny Greenwood (Radiohead)

[@user-km9bx3gf3z]

Thank you! I know understand how to count! This really helped.

[@amitwolman8836]

The Future That Awaited me by Animals as Leaders starts with the 2+3+2 pattern

[@GenesisX-gi8ug]

Great video!

[@knjfjsk]

ドン・エリスはノリノリな変拍子の曲を書きますね。 "3-3-2-2-2-1-2-2-2"(←曲名) は名曲です。

[@xmillion1704]

Damn! I've never come across a cool video with no dislikes yet! What is this world I'm living in?

[@MusicTheoryForGuitar]

Shhhh don't jinx it ;)

[@xmillion1704]

@@MusicTheoryForGuitar - Dang it! I'm so sorry that in my enthusiasm I've let our side down, it appears. Love, love, love your channel! I eat it up. More of this and everything else you put out, please.

[@sesclaytpoop8525]

1 dislike now 😔

[@mattvae8348]

Very nice! A bass player once pointed out to me that you could count 2x3,5 counts which has a great feel, something like: one-a, two-a, three-a-te, etc... There might be a name for this, but i don't know it 😊

[@mariyapavlinovadotkova2462]

Thank you!

[@KingsleyMusicLessons]

Thank you this is so simple and easy to understand.

[@F7sus4]

Godspeed You! Black Emperor - Dead Metheny is in 7/8.

[@alexandregubio]

Wow, what a killer vídeo, thank you Very much!

[@Ghuujjihfdtgvhkok]

In 160bpm by Hans Zimmer it's a 7/8 beat but at a 1-2-3-4+1-2-3

[@SteelPanarchist]

2 other cool examples of odd meter songs are Eleven and The Duchess and the Proverbial Mind spread, both by Primus. Eleven just follows the 11/8 Rhythm within the bar (3+3+3+2) but Duchess just keeps a straight beat in i believe 11/8 (or maybe it’s 11/4 swung idk) and has the “down beat” playing on off beats from what it looks like when writing it out that way. Weird stuff lol

[@andresdaniel6711]

Thank you for this video!

[@razzmatazzbean]

"modify" by neil cicierega is in 2-3-2 7/8

[@cajonaconaquetebotou]

I heard a 2-2-3 on drums, but thanks to introduce this artist to me.

[@digikaininja5]

I thought i would just see it for a few seconds and hop on to 'MESHUGGAH' TYPE TUTORIALS.....I am begiining to see the light but not quite there yet. Can u sir, do a MESHUGGAH type lesson, a basic...i am a bassist and i wanna get into the meshuggah/ron jarzombek spehere of dissonance till the end of my life. and i feel you have the key to that.

[@willemlenaerts]

You lost me at 1-2-3 around minute 8 :). But great lesson and LOVE the whiteboard! Viva la old school. Thanks man.

[@magiskeld8706]

Brilliant video!! Thank you so much!

[@sanjeevtambe8382]

Very nice sir

[@composer7325]

Excellent, thank you.

[@SearchfortheMeaning]

Monumental simplicity. Thank you!

[@olivergraf373]

I love this man! Keep up the great work ✌

[@batsay6230]

Thank you very much☺️

[@dennismcquoid9751]

Very cool! Thank you.

[@eschlagenjeim1945]

King Gizzard has entered the chat

[@CosmoShinobi-h5w]

Ayyyeee 🎉

[@cboaterroger]

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