How To Judge Power Levels in EDH

[@gogogagagugu2134]

you probably agree with this already but it's important to note that high power level =/= better or more fun. It depends on your group and what types of decks you and the other players enjoy playing with.

[@Octrox]

This. With my friends you almost never see a card above $10, which just makes it that much more fun. Everyone goes steadily from 40 to 0, so anything can happen towards the end! No stallers like Avacyn, onesided resets like Cyclonic Rift, or just OP lotuses and Ur-Dragons. Also no focus on mass land destruction, tax cards, mass prison/exile cards etc. Everyone is happy to pull off their combo's and it's great :D

[@nikolajkristensen4439]

Also, with less powerful decks, there is also more space for fun cards. All blue decks does not run Cyclonic rift, so they can include some card that actually works with their commander instead. When playing at to high a level, too large a set of cards are auto-include simply because of their powerlevel.

[@Azoreign]

Agree! Newer players probably think that higher power mean higher fun. But it is just important to communicate to your friends and playgroup and everyone play at similar power levels, that will be the most fun for game night.

[@dancingmathusalem5451]

99% of commander players I have interacted with think the exact opposite, as in the lower the powerlevel the better (see comment above). If your deck isn't a loose pile of random cards they call you "uncasual"

[@Sweetluckk]

It’s not about less or more , it’s about being even , the most enjoyable games tend to be the ones where all decks are as evenly possible in power

[@TheOracleBeats]

Power level 10, cEDH to most, is its own format almost. Stuff from like 4 to 8 is pretty fun and can be casual. 9 usually makes you an arch enemy. If that's what you're into, that can be fun, but most people dont like having to deal with a huge threat out the gate and enjoy how commander forces a slower game. Well, when you have to rush to beat a 9, it takes that slow aspect away. Even if it's not in the first 5 turns power, 9 decks usually have the resources to just win by turn 5.

[@Sarkhamy]

I think it's important to note as a CEDH player, especially now that we're in the "Midrange hell" format, cedh games can often last a *lot longer* than the first 5 turns of the game. Decks like Kinnan and Tivet and kinda blue farm are actually playing towards that longer game, and these are undeniably some of if not the best decks in the format (Kinnan and blue farm are regularly 1 and 2) The bench mark is not "can you win on turn X" the bench mark is "these decks can win on very early turns in the game, how consistently can you do something about that?" My winningest deck in cEDH is Ellivere of the Wild Court. This deck wins the game almost entirely through combat damage. But it leverages cards like blind obedience, null rod, grafdiggers cage to consistently and repeatedly put players about a turn or two behind, or locking out the strongest win lines. Then it uses gaea's cradle to pump the gas and Ellivere's consistent damage and card draw to turn our army of dorks into lethal threats. Deck is a bit fringe but it is considered meta in the community. It's not about the fastest win it's about playing the strongest game plans, consistently and with thought and effort.

[@VictorianoOchoa]

This is the important piece of information many non-cEDH players miss. Grindy cEDH games are grindier than most grindy casual games. Power != speed; Power == consistency.

[@eebbaa5560]

⁠@@VictorianoOchoaconversely, cedh players don’t seem to understand that you can still build a relatively consistent deck without spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars on the best cards in the world. just because they’re not as efficient as cedh decks doesn’t mean that “casual” decks (or players for that matter) can’t be competitive in their own right.

[@Sarkhamy]

@@eebbaa5560 Cedh players are mostly pretty accepting less powerful decks the problem being that of that deck isn't built to compete with the meta and doesn't it doesn't matter how consistent it is if it's game plan isn't going to win you games with other Cedh decks. I'm totally down for casual/high power/degenerate commander, but Cedh does have a bar to clear so to speak given that it's entirely based on how you fight meta decks.

[@nathanlowry9421]

@@SarkhamyI think the reason that bar is so high to clear is because everyone does go out of their way to use the most efficient cards each color has present. There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with that either, but that’s honestly the biggest complaint I’ve heard against cEDH, you see 5 games you’ve seen them all basically because everyone runs the exact same damn cards everytime. Again it makes absolute since for these competitive players to do that, but it inherently turns a casual player off when the uniqueness of their decks are stripped away just as a right of passage to play in that high level of a league

[@bwahchannel9746]

​@@nathanlowry9421 yeah, optimization sucks

[@TheBigupz]

we had to ban a friend from our casual fridays, because he just plays to annoy lmao, first deck mono black tergrid, 2nd deck, infinite turns narset,

[@pseudo148]

Annoying tribal

[@Azoreign]

I am so sorry to hear that. I hope they took it well and I also hope your playgroup gave them a chance to change their Chaos loving ways. I hope they are unaware of Possibility Storm...

[@MrDoctour]

Sound like a bunch a pansies 😂 syr Konrad build, then a lord of the nazgul build plus a tribal dragon build, hate on it if you will but theirs all kind of lame ass ways to play this game. Deal with it

[@Mike-rj8dg]

We have a friend in ours who just uses commanders from the top 10 list on EDHREC

[@silastallio2932]

So you only gave him 2 games and banned him without talking to him about it first?

[@w.s6124]

Cedh manacurve is more like between 1 and 2. Also there are basically no decks that win consistently on turn 1 and 2 exept for some turbo builds like krrik and rogsi. Most of the deck are midrange and win like Turn 3-5 at this point games get very grindy and cards like rhystic study are the best thing to be doing

[@MrPooler11]

My group plays with 100% proxies, so the power of a deck all comes down to how hard you're willing to go, and because of that I feel like I always lean towards being underpowered. This video was really helpful to know where I can put my efforts to have fun games.

[@Azoreign]

Thanks for sharing. Playing with proxies can be dangerous and I tend to avoid it because what is stopping me from proxying the power 9 and Gaeas cradle in all my decks? I would rather make solid decks with cards I own. And I enjoy the collecting side of the game as well.

[@chrisgroves8891]

@@Azoreign I disagree, as long as your not playing for prize support it just saves money. I dont want to spend 20-50 dollars on dozens of singular cards when building a deck. With proxies I don’t have to be limited with deckbuilding and play clearly worse versions of certain cards. It’s just not really good etiquette to proxy cards that are hundreds/or thousands of dollars so just don’t do that and your fine. For example cards like like Gaes cradle, mana crypt, gilded drake, etc. and CDH cards like jeweled Lotus. I would only every would proxy an expensive card over like 75$ if it’s only expensive because of the reserved list and just has nice synergy with my deck. Just proxy cards that reasonable/standard to play. Also 8 of the power 9 are banned in commander so it’s not like you can play stuff like that anyways.

[@nagsorinaste5658]

@@Azoreign Well it's mostly dependent on what powerlevel you wanna play, restraint is the key factor there.

[@jameji_phd]

​@@chrisgroves8891 yeah the only really expensive cards I ever tend to proxy are some of the Phyrexian praetors, which I'm mainly running in just big flavor lists like my Realmbreaker deck where individual ones aren't crazy and I don't care what happens as long as I get thrown twelve praetors down at once. Board wipe me if you want, I already got my dopamine win or lose

[@IllFated44]

Proxy the power 9? Isn't the entirety of the power nine banned in commander? 😅

[@billsmith3042]

best explanation on youtube...I was disappointed with Command Zone's attempt at this...they were way too wordy and after watching them for an hour I had no grasp at all...this cleared it up in a few minutes.

[@gegachxiswulisso9758]

I appreciate your take on all of this, your point about player knowledge and experience almost never gets mentioned as part of power level. But, as the guy who is immediately branded the archenemy in my LGS pods, I've come to start concealing my decks from the pod. I'm not trying to pub stomp them, but I've grown tired of people looking at my commander, putting away the deck they were going to play, and pulling out something to counter me. Now, I set my commander face down and when people ask what I'm playing, I'll give them an honest answer to my deck's strategy. "My deck looks to ramp into a go tall strategy." or "I'm running a pillow fort with very few stax.". I've had a few get salty once I reveal my commander. Saying thing like "well, I'm not running enough removal for that commander.", but my thoughts towards those is "well, I've got to deal with 3 decks pointed at me, so maybe I have a chance now?"

[@samuelkabab7421]

Cedh is all about winning. The number of turns to win doesn't really matter.

[@Azoreign]

cEDH is super interesting to watch. Im not sure I would enjoy playing however.

[@B1gLupu]

@@Azoreign It's still EDH, just with the worst things removed; No rule 0 discussions, no salt, no whining about being targeted and mostly good threat assesment. Generally I think cEDH players enjoy the game more than casuals, since having fun requires some amount of seriousness and the whackyness of casual can get kinda boring.

[@Sarkhamy]

It's different strokes for different folks. I'm a cedh player who's been trying to give casual a try I guess it's getting a bit difficult to put any deck i have on a power scale

[@w.s6124]

@@Azoreign Id say its more ejoyable then casual because its way less toxic. You can also still play jank like Etali and have decently good results...

[@eebbaa5560]

@@B1gLupuyou can still be competitive without playing cedh. you can still be competitive while playing a $50 budget deck. spending as much money as you possibly can on a deck doesn’t make the game more fun. if anything, all cedh does is remove everything fun about commander and turns it into four-player solitaire to see who can win on turn 3 the fastest. as long you don’t build a do-nothing gimmick deck and your deck is relatively consistent with clear win conditions, you can be competitive. cedh is ridiculously boring and you seem to have a binary understanding of what makes magic fun.

[@Grimphoenix6969]

The way we do it at our shop is we just ask "what turn does it try to win on average" and use that as the power level "how does it win" if it's a combo we ask if they tutor for it, if so we tell ted to bust out his counterspell deck and go on with your day.

[@1ionyxMTG]

Great video! My least favorite thing is everyone and their mom saying “my deck is a 7” That could literally mean anything nowadays lol It all comes down to a pre game conversation, letting everyone know what your strategy is and what your deck is trying to do (:

[@JayTheDragonKing]

I appreciate these perspectives, this was helpful and good jumping off point. Playing and having these conversations at your LGs is really going to level up your ability to gauge what's going on at the table and level up your ability to have competitive games where people coming in with the same intention and similar power levels and having a good even match.

[@Azoreign]

I think you nailed exactly what I was shooting for. Not trying to define EDH as a whole but rather to give others a "jumping off point" as to how they like to define the power levels in EDH as everyone will be different. At the end of the day, simply asking and speaking about your deck will be what truly gives you the knowledge of what deck to play against certain players.

[@JayTheDragonKing]

@@Azoreign agreed 100%

[@stefanhuber7357]

As a longtime competitive yugioh player - I was immediately drawn to Cedh when I first got into the game. I started with a Kalamax copy spell deck and today use a Grixis Combo turn 0-2 win deck XD. (Obvi use them for the appropriate play groups)

[@eebbaa5560]

makes sense that a yugioh player would find that fun. idk why you don’t just go and play solitaire at that point because that’s pretty much what you’re doing.

[@dooby5597]

Most of my decks are in the 7-8 range, from what I’m told, and really I don’t play anything that’s really overpowered, I just synergise my decks as best as possible. This kinda does give me a clearer picture on how to judge power level of my decks. I’d heard of the scale and heard it used, but never really knew what the numbers were for other than just rankings. Really good and informative video.

[@coolbeans6148]

Do you have a list online so i can see what a 7-8 looks like? Im a new player.

[@Azoreign]

Thank you for your comment. I strive to do that same with my decks as well. Build toward the 7-8 range while focusing on synergy and strategy rather than some combo to pull off a win.

[@russellquinn4285]

This was a well put together video. I have started viewing commander decks within 3 tiers recently: Casual (still drawing cards and making a board state but little to no combos or tutors) Trash Magic (Hyper optimized casual lists, lots of interaction, anything goes, combos tutors etc) CEDH (CEDH is effectively its own format with the amount of fast mana, combos, and interaction that happens within the format, saying these are a "9 or 10" on the scale tends to let more casual players mistake decks that are "trash magic" for CEDH decks when really they are just a little faster and have a higher density of interaction and win conditions)

[@imikoimo6685]

i'm playing for around 8 years by now and i gotta say, power level 8+ is where the fun stops for me. Games become so linear, you always play the same combo or routine. Deck building will also become pretty boring, because you're more focused on putting in the typical staples.

[@vileluca]

this. im so sick of running into proxied Smothering Tithe's and proxied Rhystic Studies'.

[@kaasham8871]

people don't have those cards?.. hahha@@vileluca

[@coolbeans6148]

Agreed, i also feel like theres a huge diffrence between a 7 and 8. 8s kinda in no mans land, too strong for causal but not good enough for cedh.

[@Azoreign]

100% once decks become dedicated to tutoring out and protecting a super powerful interaction, it bascially becomes a combo to the casual format. Its nice to have decks that win in a consistent way, but when those interactions are rushed to and tutored for, takes some of the fun out it.

[@tylervecchiola9944]

Having just built an 8 I'd have to agree with this. 6 is where it's at

[@ThisNameIsBanned]

Simple green decks that ramp and play their Craterhoof are basically a combo deck for the kill, but they are slow and if they get mass-removal they are either just dead or very fragile. So early powerlevels become tribal decks, everyone pumps the board full of stuff and mass removal against creatures is relevant. In higher powerlevels that changes to combos that are not stopped by creature removal, so all the cards that formerly worked great stop working, and thats what produces so many non-games as their interaction doesnt work against cEDH combos, and their ramp for lands is far worse and slower than fast artifact mana. Stuff like Cyclonic Rift is obnoxiously strong in the lower powerlevels, but it becomes a more specific card for the cEDH level, as you cant just play in everywhere, games wont last long enough for it to matter (and even if you resolve it, thats far from game over). Current precons are much better streamlined and often tribal decks that have a snowballing effect build into them, if they can do their thing, they draw a lot of cards and build up lots of tokens, big creatures and card advantage, some precons are even obnoxiously good in what they do, like the Urza one, you will have artifact creatures and large tokens, but if someone has mass-artifact removal it will cripple you. The usual jank at powerlevel 5-6 is what most people can just play and everyone can win, the decks are not consistent, but with very few if any tutors the game also becomes a bit extreme in the randomness of how the decks powers play out, as the one that has the Sol Ring turn 1 has a massive advantage, something that becomes less a problem if people simply run more of such cards, like Mana crypt, some moxes and the like, fast mana changes the game a lot, and Sol Ring is a card that is automatic in all decks, but has a huge powerlevel.

[@dreadgray78]

cEDH is really its own thing and its own meta, imo kinda belongs on its own scale. Granted cEDH decks will usually crush 'casual' decks, but not always. Sometimes they can fold like paper if their combo line is disrupted. Or, sometimes an efficient stax deck design to stop the best decks of cEDH will fold to a battlecruiser strategy because its not used to dealing with decks that have a scary board. As someone interested in cEDH - I find that casual EDH is so interesting because there really is no one meta, or at least it so diverse and localized that power level & strategies differ so much that their hard to even compare. The difference is that cEDH has a fairly developed meta, whereas casual commander really doesn't even at the top end.

[@wbw911]

true that there is no "meta" in casual pods (since there is such a big gap lol) but usually an experienced player knows the "rock paper scissors" of each archetype and if they like to do it they could have multiple decks for archetype coverage (creature aggro, hatebear, spellsling, stax, control, midrange, etc)

[@Azoreign]

From reaching all the comments on this video I now understand that CEDH and Casual deserve to be separate and have their own scales accordingly. New video time!

[@SYST3MGL1TCH]

I built a skeleton tribal deck a few years that was fun to play but often got outshined by precons so i put it around a 3 back then. Now after years of upgrading it and getting to know the lines it's at least a 7 possibly an 8. It went from just a goofy idea to a super resilient deck with multiple ways to close out games and deal with problems. It even has a combo based around Out of the Tomb now.

[@OfficialMaddeck]

I love playing underdog commanders in CEDH, and still winning with weird cards that no one sees in CEDH. Playing from 5-6-7-8 is always hard, because there is always one dude that says 5 and he playing 8.

[@zeekeno823]

I always determined power level by average turns to win if unstopped. If you would win on turn 14 if left unanswered, it's a 1 power, and turn 1 or 2 is a 10 power. You can sorta adjust from there, but the faster the average win, the more likely you have really good deck building concepts and principles.

[@altromonte15]

this works for many decks but not all. There are plenty of prison, pillowfort, stax, control decks that can take a dozen turns to win or more, but they will win 90% of the time against your average 6 power deck.

[@Azoreign]

That is not a terrible way to view power level. I think that in this day and age there are a few more factors in determining power but this is a good place to start.

[@zeekeno823]

@@Azoreign yeah, like altro said there's other play styles, but for the majority, and for the beginner, it's a good tool. Once someone gets more experience they'll be able to determine power levels better with some more nuance

[@w.s6124]

Thats a completely wrong approach many cedh decks are not built to win turn 1 or 2. The meta right now is midrange...

[@andresmarquez5241]

Now i know why my deck keeps losing even though i put in some staples, i need to get rid of the theme

[@Azoreign]

Mind sharing what your current theme is? And why you think getting rid of it will help. Some themes such as certain tribes or a spell slinger strategy can help a deck become more focused.

[@WoebringerofDoom]

Always run your best, and strive for greatness, growing over time.

[@c.r.bledsoe9322]

Best advice is just asking the table "what turn do your usually win on if everything is going right for you" if the answer is turn 5 and you know you won't even play your commander till turn 6, might want to adjust accordingly. And if youve never played your deck before try goldfishing with your ideal 7 cards and see how long it takes till you get to an ideal board state.

[@Azoreign]

This is a very important piece I didnt mention. Testing your deck on your own can help you see how a potential game can go before you have a feel bad at game night.

[@OvAeons]

I always gauged power level on what turn they aim to win and yeah matches up pretty good with your scale. It is getting harder to get friends to read the table when they just want to win turn 3-5 going infinite cause "fast games are more fun, we get to play more games" when at least half the table is just playing lands and 1-2 cards, 1 ramp if lucky, setting up...

[@ThereIsNoSpoon678]

Some dude made a website where you put in your cards, and it spits out a comprehensive analysis, including a respectable Power Level.

[@bobadas5582]

And the website is???

[@Azoreign]

I have seen some deck sites do a competitive percent and it is always subjective. You really need to play with other decks consistently to gage your own power level.

[@peacenite]

not gonna lie, I bought my first time commander bundle set is warhammer 40K who was my best choice ever I done until this day. I play all the decks and I found my favourite deck is The Swarmlord who run 1+ counter typically and right now I upgrade my EDH become more driven to focus aroumd the 1+ counter, huge creature, lot of draw engine when my deals combat or enter the battlefield plus I add another way me to win the game like Simic Ascendancy, rhythm of the wild to make sure my creature spell cant be countered additionally choice enter with haste or buff 1+ counter

[@shuckahoseerazzle8486]

thanks this helped because Im sort of new, played alot online but never got down to an lgs and find people to play with, starting with a draft tomarrow, dont care if I lose every match I just hope to find people to play with and try my commander decks I built

[@Azoreign]

Very awesome! What commanders did you end up building? If you would like, you can also join my Discord (link in bio) where me and others get together and play on Spell Table.

[@horusexitus13]

i love the pregame talk "whats the worst ur deck can do" if they wip out 2 cards who insta win the game i take a higher power one if they say oh i hit u with a big green thing i go to a lower lv

[@morrius0757]

Precons are no longer 3 power, it's usually 4 for the bad ones, 5 for the good ones. WotC has done a solid job with them the past couple years.

[@proyectohangover9275]

We just started putting up boundaries in our table, because we play online (we started to live far apart like 2-3 years ago) and it started as a way to play our decks long distance or to try precons. Then we started building new things as to try before spending money building the things (MtG is kinda expensive in South America), but then someone just got to Game Night with a 2200+ bucks Emmara deck that they didn't even built themselves. We laugh about it now, but that was the point where we had to have a conversation.

[@kylesherlock3859]

I am new to mtg, I’d say about 2 months in. And I bought a bello commander deck and i love this game. However, I did lots of research and found a few holes in the decks idea. So I went have purchased a few cards to boost it up. And it’s still fun, sometimes I can’t get anything going and I draw and watch the others play. But since I added a few cards (mana and molten echos, Mithril) idk if I made anyone annoyed but for the final turn I had a 15 minute turn where I drew and played several enchantments and OTK’d the other 3. I felt bad, I really don’t like eliminating my friends, I understand it’s part of the game I just feel bad picking the first person to actually lose. And I have this feeling I added too much and made it a bit stronger than the others. I was a yugioh player for many years so my adaptation to MTG was quick and I think it caught them off guard. Not sure what to do.

[@kiritadoshi]

I mainly build 5-6 power level decks. Most due to budget constraints. I routinely play in pods with decks that half the cards have a higher monetary value than my entire deck. I am punching up every game, and fighting an uphill battle every game. To put it simply, I’m bringing a knife to a gunfight every commander night. If winning on occasion is important for you to enjoy the game, take sure to have conversations about power level.

[@Azoreign]

Hopefully my videos can help you even the odds! Stick with it and you will get better even if your cards don't change, you will get better as a player.

[@maddoxgould5564]

I'm usually the problem in my commander pod and used to play a 8 or 9ish Zaxara infinite x spells and +1/+1 counters deck and would usually get targeted straight away but end up winning anyways and now I've developed a reputation for always bringing op decks to the table and I keep trying to bring weaker decks that fit more in the 5 or 6 range but the reputation means everyone is to afraid of what I've already done and I can't seem to escape it

[@RoyRagnar]

😂

[@NeoSlimey]

You had best justify Rebellion Rising so low in the thumbnail. That deck is so cracked out of the box, it's not even funny.

[@Azoreign]

TBH I have never played against it. It was just Boros so I figured people would see that in the Thumb and just go "yeah..thats seems about right".

[@B1gLupu]

When people who play casual talk about cEDH, they always get stuck on the "games end early" thing. Yes, it is possible for the game to end on someone's first or second turn and in an evening of play some games will definately end quickly, but it's actually quite difficult to jam a quick win through 3 other players. The format is VERY interactive and generally games go on a bit. Typically games go like this Get mana -> get cards -> get interaction -> assemble your win and only hands that luck out really close the game in 1-2 turns. Good cEDH decks are those that do the "get mana" and "get cards" parts better than the field.

[@BeWrong666]

This is one of the simplest but almost on the spot explanation, except for the 9-10.

[@Azoreign]

That is the consensus around this video. Guess I have to build a cEDH now!

[@Wolfen5207]

I'm one of those weird players that likes to take a niche strategy and make it good as I can with the cards I've been collecting since 2011. Earlier this day I played a Jolrael, Voice of Zhalfir deck with a focus on land creatures and ended up drawing my entire deck and swinging in for absolute tons of damage.

[@JonNunnelley-g8l]

I think this is definitely a good way to scale. I would say that cEDH probably takes up the power 8 window as well due to the fact there are some sub optimal cEDH play styles like winota, yuriko, ect. venting: my play group thinks my mono green bears is an 8.5. This is a very important video.

[@Azoreign]

My playgroup has a similar issue. We have recently picked up some newer players and they view some of my older, upgraded decks, as being entry cEDH and they are far from it. Mono Green bears with Ayula? Boosting power and removal on your commander would probably make your playgroup feel like they cant do anything. Sounds like they need to bring some more interaction to game night!

[@JonNunnelley-g8l]

@@Azoreign yeah Ayula, she isn't worth a damn at my normal play group table but I get accused of pub stomping with her. She would sit at a sturdy 6 IMO.

[@mose9629]

Kinda confused by your rating of winota and yuriko as 'sub-optimal' decks when up until it was borderline hated out of the format winota was second only to najeela, and Yuriko has 3-4 different viable builds that range from almost top tier to mid tier. Ngl there isn't really a single deck in the 8 range that would be viable in cEDH, basically, if it has any real chance of loosing to a pod of casual decks in more then 1/10 games, its not cEDH viable.

[@JonNunnelley-g8l]

@@mose9629I feel you, they are competitive decks, but Winota top win % sits at 15% as of late (Yuriko even lower.) At a casual or a mild comp table these decks can thrive. However, these commanders will probably not see a top 16 in the future unless they receive more support. Again, let me reiterate; these ARE competitive for sure, and you will see them in tourneys, but they are not the 'optimal' pick as a cEDH commander. On a side note, I have both decks and that's why I bring them up. Winota gets smashed in a pod that knows how to play against her (even casual) and a lot of minor things get in the way of winning with Yuriko. Whereas blue farm or 3+ colored good stuff play at a superior level more consistently. I've won tourneys with both too. With the second part of your comment, I think it's hard to measure a comp deck in a casual pod. Casual decks tend to warp the field, target aimlessly, and not have efficient pilots. Even a top tier deck will struggle fighting off three players targeting it.

[@TheFootballstar5588]

Winota an 8?!? Bruuuh 😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@adrichaoslestro]

I'm currently in the process of building a Nethroi deck which started as a "oh I just think the apexes of Ikoria are cool" to "mmm yes combo with Maha yummyyy"

[@rokuko998]

I keep losing to a deck that feels like a 7-8 but is just a slightly upgraded precon deck- Some crazy things can happen when starting hand has all the stars align with Sol Ring + Another Ramp + Secondary Commander + Multiple of their best cards are all in starting hand in a Historic Deck.

[@joelferguson625]

Lol, you're probably right about theme decks. I made a pirate commander deck that has only won 2/3 once or twice.

[@Azoreign]

Well tribal, or I guess typal now, are pretty common decks and an easy way to build around a certain creature type. Unfortunately pirates seems to be a somewhat weaker creature type as they havnt been around quite as long as others. Luckily with Caverns of Ixalan there will be more pirates and a new pirate commander deck!

[@brokenhalo2674]

Back in the day my buddy used to run this frustrating turn 0 flash hulk deck 😒 And somehow he’d open with that hand more often than he should

[@wbw911]

most of the stuff you brought up seems to be on point but remember casual folks to NEVER play fast mana rocks in your low power decks it will make your gameplay very lopsided and when the explosive turns do happen it will make people target you for reasons you will not like same applies to some other crazy good cards randomly put into your precon just because you got it from a pack or something

[@Varnockthe1st]

Accepting that I am constantly in a state of Archenemy has made for a fun time with my group

[@Solitario9475]

I’m 100% that one that’s never a threat, I can’t build a deck even if I try my dark hardest. My ADHD brain just can’t create any effective strategy let alone a deck that’s useable without drawing a few dozen cards first xD

[@stevenhuntley8706]

3:14 my play group was what i call "hyper-casual", mostly people i had taught myself and who only played now and then over a year or two, so a precon was earth shaking for the group. Yes. You do have to actively try to make it weaker. Thinking about the time i got yelled at, fully yelled at, for having not one, but two 1/1 flyers.😂

[@MHilstrom]

Wish one of my commander buddies would dive into this system. Me and a couple other friends are new to MTG (we bought pre cons to play together about 3 months ago), but one friend had a buddy who's been in Magic for the long haul and has been invited. He's a nice guy and has helped us learn what the hell we are doing. However, he only has two commander decks, one Atraxa netdeck that i can only assume would be an 8 or 9, and a green ramp deck that cheats out huge creatures (can't recall the commander name or main cheat cards). We haven't upgraded our pre cons or made any decks ourselves, so it feels like our power levels are around a 5 at the highest, and most games we have to gang up on him to have a chance. We try to get him to play with a precon or make a lower tier deck, but he says he's content with our situation. Anyone else have experience with a dilemma like this? We don't want to kick him out but it feels awful ganging up on his deck to have a chance to even compete. Two of us are in the process of making decks in the $200 range, which still feels a bit far from his decks.

[@Azoreign]

Believe it or not I actually am working on a video about how to have a healthy playgroup and this is one of the topics I plan on addressing. First, you and your other friend need to figure out if you even like Magic enough to drop $200 on a deck, I know that most of my higher end decks are anywhere from $800-$1,200. Second, you need to as the high powered friend if he is willing to go to the store and buy his own Pre-Con so he can better match with you guys to play more healthy games as you continue to learn. Hope this helps! Goodluck!

[@ERBanmech]

I have 7 decks currently all with varying power levels, interaction levels, and play speeds. I always say what my decks can do before playing with anyone I don’t know already and offer my opponents to choose which deck I play afterwards so I don’t upset. My playgroup tends to play very stompy and wide so things like spellslinger or stax impacts the table much heavier compared to an equally stompy or wide deck. Some decks like my Oloro, ageless acetic voting and control deck I will normally only play once since it turns the game into an agonizing bureaucratic hell with all the voting and cost manipulation.

[@mopanda81]

this is probably the first source I've ever seen that made it sound like being begged a solid 7-8 is where you want to actually be in terms of power level

[@OvAeons]

The first time i made my enchantments group hug with a splash of chaos deck that's not supposed to win, my turn brain off tired now sit back deck/i've got a head ache deck. With a really dumb win con IF it ever happened, it happened with monumental overkill. Milled for half my deck, including opalescence, mirror march, leyline of singularity and vicious shadows. I had kararks thumb and topdecked replenish. My first mirror march trigger i flipped 23 wins, second was 6 or 7. Everyone was dead. I still had 30 or so enchants to go. It has happened more than i ever thought it would.

[@MegaBekem]

If you want to know about CEDH, all you have to remember is these 5 cards: Forest, Chrome Mox, Dark Ritual, Witherseed Apprentice, Chain of Smog, thanks for coming!

[@VictorianoOchoa]

An early attempt like this would never work in a true cEDH pod without a long interaction-filled game first. As an early attempt, the Witherbloom Apprentice would be killed, the combo silenced, the Chain or Smog countered, or something else.

[@MegaBekem]

@@VictorianoOchoa There is only ONE way to stop the combo turn 1! You can't kill the apprentice with no mana, bud!

[@MegaBekem]

@@VictorianoOchoa Ever lose the game without even playing a land? You would against me!

[@VictorianoOchoa]

@@MegaBekem the statistical odds of you not only going first but also having these cards in your opening hand AND each opponent not having FoW, FoN, or MBT in their opening hands makes this example unrealistic.

[@estellairon9448]

I (badly) built a Doran that was so midrange I was a constant removal target cuz the others were scared of me (and I still managed to almost win) but also suffered from topdecking and being hella slow

[@noidea5129]

7-10 Power Level: - Mana Rocks (Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Jeweled Lotus,...) - Free Spells (Fierce Guardianship, Deflecting Swat, Minbreak Trap, Force of Will,...) - Tutors (Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor, Imperial Seal,...) - Top Tier Enchantments (Mystic Remora, Rhystic Study, Underworld Breach,...) - Easy Combos (Thassa,...)

[@socalkylex]

This is the best scale I’ve seen so far

[@rexfirestar9835]

Edh goes like this for me goes to a table pulls out the test deck or weakest then gage from there, usually all games have me pulling out my 9-10 after, because one person could not help playing wheel of fortune, the one ring, plateau, mana valut, and jeska's will

[@noobwant3d]

Sometimes my group will refuse to play a board wipe, if it’ll simply king make someone or if it wouldn’t speed the game up in any way.

[@HansBelphegor]

Well I've only played homebrew, but I've had 7-9 level decks against my lvl 4 Ying yang pony deck

[@mitchelllucier6930]

Amazing video brother! Thanks for the post very educational

[@daverailey6234]

Ove been playong for 10 years and i still cant build a deck lol. Also my lgs usally plays with consistent 8 or 9s. So its kinda unbalencd seeing as i play with inbetween 5-7

[@lisdexik5484]

Seeing that Boros precon with a 2-3 over it hurt my soul. Then again, I stopped doing power levels because it's all subjective anyway, and I obsessed over it like a dummy.

[@amiLli257]

The boros precon sucks balls, played twice, so boring and slow

[@CBuiscuit]

I took the Eldrazi precon and upgraded it. It's probably a 6 or 7 power level now. Once I have 4 mana I can almost every time ramp into my 8 cost cards. I usually bring it out at the end of the night if I need a win.

[@Azoreign]

From what I have seen and heard the Eldrazi precon is amazing right out of the box! I went with the enchantments as it was a strategy I do not have yet.

[@Elmarias777]

My high power deck is an abzan recursion deck with a few infinites that come out easily and regularly. I run so much interaction and protection it often worries the others in my group to where, if they see me pull out my abzan deck, they auto gang up. My regular deck is my mono black necrons. Pretty straight forward graveyard tecursion to make necrons and swarm their field. Also, gets ganged up on. Then there is my build of the month. Whe i have them pick a commander and i build a deck around it. We shuffle up, sit down, and they auto gang up on me. I noticed they rarely run enough ramp, interaction, card draw, and rely on a 3 or 4 card combo to win. I try to hel0 them deck build but they just end up removing the cards i suggest to do more jank. Guess I will always be archenemy in my group 😅

[@Currywurst4444]

The solution is simple. Occasionally switch decks with your opponents.

[@Elmarias777]

@Currywurst4444 been there, done that. They still gang up on me because "I would know how to run the deck optimally anyway." Lol. It's like the concept of only being able to do what the cards I draw are capable of doing is lost on them.

[@ThereIsNoSpoon678]

With a 100 card singleton format, it’s also pretty hard to judge your deck without playing a dozen games or so.

[@Azoreign]

I have been playing for nearly 10yrs at this point. Learning how to judge power levels has made LGS gaming so much more enjoyable for me.

[@Alice_Haukea]

It's funny you mention it. My play group does have one player who stands above the rest. He's been playing magic for many years longer than the rest of us and he wins 95% of the time. He'll get bored of winning with the same few decks over and over so he'll go out of his way to build a challenge deck, or something tribal. Yet he'll still win because his general experience and knowledge of the game carries him. That and he's VERY good at the table politics. Though I also think he's lying a lot and potentially cheating at times. I've been playing Indominus Rex Alpha as my favorite deck. He's only seen this commander in action from me. He considers Rex to be far too fast and powerful to be considered a casual commander. His Muldrotha was too slow for the speed that Rex has. He complained that his loss here was because his deck wasn't a good match up to the pod. That had he known the speed of Rex, he would have played a deck that can better match it. So in the next game he switches to a deck that is borderline cEDH viable and mulligans until he resolves an opening hand consisting of Drannith Magistrate and Hush Bringer. He argues that if we cannot block Rex from hitting the table, I'll just win too fast. He's also the person who has an Unesh Sphinx deck with an infinite turn combo goal and claims that he MUST start with either Jeweled Lotus or Crypt or else the deck is too slow. So he will mulligan for either. He might have years of experience, but I feel he's also not quite so honorable... Anyways, even with your video here, it's still a bit difficult for me to judge decks. Since I mentioned it already, my Indominus Rex Alpha deck is a good example then. As cliche as it is to say this, I'd call the deck a 7. Why? Because I don't have tutor spells and my interaction package is on the light side. My reasoning was that due to easy access to hexproof and indestructible, I don't always need removal in the same abundance. Though I do have a few of course. A commander that is hard to remove and hits hard will always be seen as more powerful than it is because of the immediate threat it poses. But that isn't always fair to use as the single argument on power level. And this is kind of my other question. How do you get away with playing a commander that inherently draws hate? Koma the Cosmo Serpent is a really cool card, but given what it does, there seems to be no version of reality where it ISN'T prime target number 1.

[@cylonsteve2511]

Thanks for the video. Nostalgia hearing about Commander. Not sure I'll ever play MTG again though. I have played for decades, but haven't much interest anymore. The pod I was with are the epitome of arms race and the games felt, genuinely boring. I stuck it out for them. Magic is old and the land/mana base system is...bad. I have sold most of my collection and am enjoying other games and table top much more than magic ever could. Hasbro is truly unlikeable too. I'm happy to see others have fun with it and I lightly keep up with the blocks and cards at a distance.

[@Azoreign]

Thank you for your comment. Maybe one day Magic will entice you back into the fold. I went through a similar issue with my playgroup where it became an "arms race" until we sat down and talked about how unfun our games and decks had become. Fixing this issue was key in moving forward with everyone in the group building on a similar level.

[@cosmicodyssey3382]

Ok so saying friendly blue mage is a war crime as such subscribed

[@Azoreign]

Stick around long enough and you will see that I am a Blue Mage with the goal of helping all who love Magic: the Gathering like I do!

[@aftergood]

my group doesnt play in a LGS cuse we play with bans. we figure the higher the powerlevels match up better then lower... however it is hard to bring in new players too our table... we have had a myraid of players from timid to cocky join us on a game night and never return. We try and warn people "our table is a hard table to win on" or we tell them anything goes except UN cards.. but regardless very very few people heed our warnings.

[@tuongpham7609]

I play a voting/tax kenrith. Aka, the government. Since kenrith can 2 card combo with a lot of cards, I’ve only added one 2 card combo into the deck as an emergency button when there’s just one guy dominating. All else, if every deck is doing about the same, imma sit back and ask them to pay their taxes.

[@LKMizore112]

You were joking, but that 3v1 video would be awesome. Haha.

[@carterpatterson1988]

Hey man, you earned a subscriber, cool video :)

[@kilteddwarf]

yeah, my deck is in testing, other player agrees, that my deck isn't that strong... i draw 2 good cards (first turn arcane signet), have a solid start hand (ok, 2 lands, phyrexian altar and solring), get my 5 mana commander out turn 2, get my 6 mana commander out turn 4 (turn 3 was creating creatures to sac) and my second commander becomes a flying 60/60 in turn 5 and i can kill the 2nd player... so, my deck can compete with a 7, but is so inconsistent, that it is sometimes struggeling against 4 - 5s... and in theory it should be consistent, because i play Tevesh and Sengir, the Dark Baron... ok, i have only 2 board wipes, gix's command and massacre girl... but i force everyone to sac and have targeted removal... but i have a few pet-cards in the deck... desperate farmer (i love this card, despite it doing nothing...) my unwilling ingrediennt, gingerbrute and some other "bad" cards like mirran safehouse and guildless commons (can be fun when you have a landfall deck and enough lands already in play... can bounce itself back on etb...)

[@Azoreign]

Sounds like you have a good direction to go with your deck and you are playing some great cards. Personally, I love adding in pet cards especially once you get alternate arts and foils to make them ever more personal.

[@brutallegend1100]

1:50 Thats my issue personally. I've never been great at building decks nor amazing at mtg in general. I mean ive made some okish decks, won a few games and have been the biggest threat on the board but only when my buddies are dead drawing, not because im actually throwing out heat. Overall my win ratio is really low because I dont want to get into a habit of dropping hundreds and hundreds of dollars into a singular deck. They'll tell me that they dont do the competitive scene, thats its not their thing but then turn around and whip out these 4-$600 decks, which I know is still kinda on the low end, whenever we play. I know price isn't necessarily indicative of power and its about synergy but alot of times I end up losing interest mid match because by turn 5 everyones thrown out multi combos for multi triggers or token generation and I know at that point I can't keep up.

[@rawdawgandboofin2115]

Hey goon. If I build around Lord Xander. Cause I love mill. What would you say it's power level will be? I'm slowly ordering the cards.

[@Azoreign]

Well, I don't think you can base the power level solely around who the commander is. Lord Xander has alot going on with his card but he is expensive mana wise. It will all depend what you surround Xander with. Do you have fast mana artifacts, rituals, and treasure makers to get Xanader out as fast as possible? Do you have counterspells to protect him? Do you have sac outlets and reanimation to make use of his effects multiple times? Do you have a deck list?

[@rawdawgandboofin2115]

@@Azoreign not for my commander deck yet. But I built a 60 card mill deck for casual play of you wanna rate that for me

[@OmegaMTG]

7:15 I resemble that remark. lol

[@MrCenturion13]

I have a Vorel deck that has no ramp, no tutors, no combos, no I-win cards, no counterspells and no infect. And i run Storm Crow. Jank? Because it wins a fair amount of the time.

[@RMTM09]

There is irony in my decks because of the fact I have a poison(atraxa) that's an upgraded precon, a Kess spell-slinger upgraded goad precon, and the sliver+eldrazi precons that have minor upgrading. The irony is that I am often targeted cause of deck archetype, but they aren't that great.

[@Deviltrigger44]

It's kind of annoying when its comes to determine power level. For example, i have a be'lakor deck, and i have a alot of mana rock because its grixis and alot of demons are like 5 or more mana so without any mana rock its very slow and it wont be fair when the other table using green and ramp with lands. Like in my opinion its okay you run alot of mana rock, especially when youre not green. sometime my friend gets angry because i sometime have a very good start, like i get sol ring talisman etc. But after that sometime im like out of cards and im just top decking for card draw.

[@imikoimo6685]

never heard that people get angry about mana rocks :D i mean the game gets faster every new set, you have too keep up with green and other fast paced decks. What does he expect, that you cast your commander turn 6 while having 1 demon on board?

[@Deviltrigger44]

@@imikoimo6685 that's what I'm saying I'm just play one big creature out of time and it's not like I win every game I think he just hate big flying creture

[@lum26akua28]

​@@Deviltrigger44Bruh I have never seen someone mad at mana rocks. Even Land, into Sol Ring into Arcane Signet is mostly just a curious thing to happen. Now a Mana Vault can hurt

[@Azoreign]

A mana rock is equivalent to a ramp spell in mono green. But I think mana rocks look scarier because they are separate from lands and make your board look like its doing more than it is. In colors that don't have access to green mana rocks are essential to doing anything before turn 6. Packing a good amount of 2 mana rocks means you should get a rock very consistently. Sounds like your friend needs to run some vandal blast..

[@Deviltrigger44]

Lol it's true the time he doesn't have artifact boardwipe like cleansing nova he complains my deck is too fast

[@nzephier]

Every deck is a 7 when you don't know how to communicate properly.

[@frago321]

I think you need to play a little cEDH to understand it. While decks need to be able to win or stop others from winning as soon as turn 2-3 many game goes for turn 8 or 10 even as the presure is in every corner.

[@Azoreign]

I wouldnt mind playing CEDH but the price of entry into that format is insane!

[@hubbcappa9307]

@@Azoreignproxying is the best way to play, a lot of local tournaments allow a certain amount of proxies nowadays

[@oss10000]

What rank number your deck is not important. Different people has different scales. Only thing important is whether or not deck is more than tier over or lower than other decks in the pod. Pile of cards - jank - themed - precon - upgraded precon - deck with good synergy/ramp/draw/interaction - like previous tier but deck is optimized with best cards - casual combo decks (narzet turns, zada, jhoira artifact storm)/ strong value decks (krovold sacrifice). Cedh - decks designed to interact with opponents on turn 2.

[@Azoreign]

You make a very good and valid point. I think the purpose of this video was also to show others how to judge their decks so that way they can compare to their friends or LGS to have those similar power scaled games. You can't really judge yours or others decks if you are unsure how to do so. But after watching this video, hopefully anyone would be able to reflect and bring a more appropriate deck to the pod.

[@CMAzeriah]

Before I even watch the video ill say the only way to determine the power level of your deck is to simply play. You already want your deck to go off consistently (not win but have a shot at it) and you can't measure that consistancy if you don't play it. I have a Jodah deck. It was fairly consistent until invested into the land base. Now it stops regularly.

[@twitchster77]

It's about a 7. _/Plays an island into a Sol Ring, casts Mana Crypt. Plays The One Ring._ I don't know. Maybe a 7.5?

[@Azoreign]

This does NOT sound like a 7.5!

[@Ghost_of_spades]

U forgot the shittalk that comes with new decks XD I love some friendly shittalk XD

[@Azoreign]

Just a little bit a' banter.

[@Riley_k10]

I have a eldrazi deck that can get marit lage out turn 2 so whats that level(Ulalek)

[@thomascox3213]

Problem is is most of my decks. Are there one side of the extreme or the other? I never have one in the middle.

[@timothytiu1333]

C edh is when there is money involved and all players play to win like real mehn.

[@Azoreign]

CEDH turns move so fast, I actually really like watching experienced players play at that speed.

[@nemesis666first]

Precons are level 5 per default... Only the last Faery Precon is level 7 because there is an infinite combo, and, maybe, the phyrexian infect is level 6 or 7 for some people (There is a debate). But precons lower than 5 ? Never heard about it. We used to call level 4 and lower "bunch of cards", it's even hard to create decks lower than 5 xD ...

[@chall3ng33v3rything]

Precons are usually 3-4. That’s pretty widely accepted.

[@coolbeans6148]

And thos is why so many are confused by the power scale. It rare a precon is as strong as a 5. Most are a 4, bad ones are a 3. What you consider a 7 is a 5 to me.

[@Azoreign]

Wait...there is an infinite combo in the Faerie deck?

[@Lonely260_]

What infinite combo is in the faery deck??????

[@lancekosisky9946]

The faerie deck has cloud of faeries and hullbreaker horror. It's begging to become a tempo combo deck. One with counter spells and tutors. lol. Mine is just a fun flash Alena Tempo deck though.

[@piotraugustyniak6591]

Great video 👍

[@Azoreign]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@HonkLord]

Gotta be honest, we need to do away with the 1-10 scale. It's subjective and hard to quantify. We should instead ask meaningful questions about the decks we play against (such as "do you play combos?", "do you run fast mana?", "what turn do you generally win with nothing blocking you?", etc.) and, controversially I think that CEDH should be on a completely separate scale entirely. It's basically its own sub-game at this point and lumping every CEDH deck as just "CEDH" when there's a tier list of decks in the sub-format feels counter-intuitive. Also, playing certain CEDH decks at a casual EDH table can result in losses for the CEDH player quite often because they're built to be played against other CEDH decks.

[@Azoreign]

I agree with your point. Questions should be asked first and foremost rather than just asking what power level/number your deck is. It makes it so much easier to compare decks to one another. Also your point about cEDH being a completely different scale is warranted. I am a fish out of water for cEDH so I would not be the person to create that.

[@aloestrafire4824]

Ive always power scaled as- in 10 games, on average how many of those games do you win

[@Azoreign]

Winrate is a statistic that many people either dont keep track of or just ignore. In my playgroup we actually keep track of who and what decks win each night. Very valuable information.

[@paulbuckley2301]

Okay, first off, we all can mostly agree that rating Power Levels is mostly arbitray and very inaccurate. However, it is not entirely useless, as it does help explain your deck's power to the group, as long as they all have similar mindsets. Very rare that. I've also been saying this for a while now, but many content creators consistently categorize Precons much lower than they should. For quite a few years, Preconstructed decks have been incredibly strong. Not consistently, of course, as so many HUNDREDS are churned out by Wizards every year. This is due to the nature of the Legacy format, where all cards are legal minus only a few for specific reasons. In order to get players to play a different Merfolk Commander, they had to eventually print a more powerful one. Power Creep is built into the game. Wizards want a new player to be able to buy a ~$50 deck and sit down and play with the average pod of players. And since the average pod keeps getting stronger, so, too, do the precons, on average. Maybe its simply that my card shop just enjoys a casual power level game, but precons almost always have a significant impact on the game, even winning a decent amount of games. I believe this inconsistency by creators is simply due to the fact that most seem to build decks near the very top of that Casual threshold, bordering on cEDH. As an example, have you ever played against the Urza deck from Brother's War? That Commander slaps.

[@chomper1329]

A question i like to ask is, "when are you able to remove someone from the game?"

[@prnunceddead3178]

Every time I play my GOD-Sliver deck, it's 3v1... I'm always the target.. it kinda sucks

[@Azoreign]

I feel that. I pulled the side profile Maelstrom Wanderer and wanted to make a deck around it. My playgroup has come to the conclusion that 2 free spells and haste is too strong...turn 1 I am the public enemy. I feel your pain.

[@DanielEvanClarke]

I don't get the 'lots of ramp' being a factor, that feels like deckbuilding 101 for commander

[@zactheg]

F atraxa in particular

[@tysnow9524]

I ran the card though a website for my power level it's a 9 but it has 10-15win cons that can turn on a dime and play into one an another. But don't be that weenie at the table who days double strike hits before first strike I had a person day that the table agreed and I scooped since that was just pure bs

[@nigahiga878]

I dont think most people refer to a precon as a 3.

[@That1powergamer]

Imo the majority of players will never admit to a 9-10 because they know they will get targeted. I can't remember the last time someone actually admitted to a 9-10 and said something like "Yeah if you target me I understand." Because they want to win that bad.

[@alecrodriguez3969]

According to spell table 1-5 don't exist. 6 is precon and everybody is an 8