How to Make Necromancy Fresh Again

Necromancy is one of the best-known magic-system archetypes out there, which means it can get a little worn and overdone. In this video, we explore how to stop beating that dead horse and resurrect it into something useful
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Catharsis by Travis Bagwell | www.audible.com/pd/Awaken-Onl...
TV Tropes Pages
Necromancer | tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...
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My Website | crrowenson.com
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Chapters
Intro - 00:00
What Is It? - 00:53
Should You Change It? - 01:53
Changing Perception - 02:33
Changing Prevalence - 04:34
Changing Perspective - 06:05
Change the Scope - 07:27

[@corvus_da]

I remember reading a short story once which had a really interesting take on the subject. The main character was a "forensic necromancer", and the police would call them to crime scenes to ask the spirits of murder victims for information about the murderer.

[@themagicengineer5314]

that sounds familiar... any idea what it was called?

[@Andrewtr6]

Pushing Daisies was basically the same thing but it was a tv series adapted from a book

[@StarlasAiko]

For a longer story where necromancy is used for crime mystery, look up The Necroscope

[@thatnerdygaywerewolf9559]

My favorite example of Necromancy comes from the Old Kingdom series by Garth Nix. It plays a lot of Necromancy straight (evil, has corruptive influence, etc.; it does subvert rarity, though), but twists it by focusing on a family that uses Necromancy to put the undead back to rest. Metaphorically fighting fire with fire. I also enjoy how deep it does into how Necromancy works, with bells that have specific effects (like putting someone to sleep or making someone walk), defining layers of death, etc.

[@aroventalmav888]

I also like the juxtaposition between the wild free magic and the imposed order of the charter. Every book brings up as many questions as it answers.

[@themagicengineer5314]

LOVE Garth Nix!!! The Abhorson Trilogy is soooo goood!!!

[@TheMichaellathrop]

Alternatively you could go an archaic rather than new or "classic" interpretation. For instance in the Odyssey Odious preforms a necromantic ritual to call up spirits from Hades realm for a chat. There is also the Icelandic Necropants ritual as well as spirit summoning being a common part of the medieval grimoric tradition that was likely interconnected to alchemy to the point where we still today call alcohol spirits.

[@igwilly6592]

Well, yeah, that is a good idea. It's even in the term "necromancy". Going to archaic interpretations is still twisting tropes because fewer people know about the real-world meaning of the term compared to the "zombie-maker" meaning, but going back to the roots is a terrific idea if you're stuck ^^

[@themagicengineer5314]

ooo. fun tidbits there! The only caution to add to that. Whenever lifting directly from a real-world culture, make sure you are changing it enough to be truly unique and/or make sure you are treating the original concept and culture with respect

[@igwilly6592]

Interesting. For example, I always liked the necromancy old-school D&D, where all magic which deals with the life force is considered necromancy. Healing spells are necromancy, although limited to priests. Wizard necromancer characters can specialize in many areas, such as destroying undead. And killing people, but to be honest, what do you expect when you cast a fireball at someone's face XD I don't plan to do the exact same thing to necromancy my system simply because D&D is so well-known, but you got me thinking about necromancy in more... "creative", ways ^^

[@themagicengineer5314]

O.o go on... tell us more about these "creative ways"

[@BN-sf2xj]

I’m currently developing a magic system based on the fact that when living things die, their soul decomposes into a radiation (called unstable magic) which can be absorbed by other living organisms or inanimate materials to harness it and focus the power (called stable magic). The only outlier, is Copper. Copper attracts the radiation like a magnet, and when it has enough it becomes a new powerful material called Shock Copper. I’m making this for a D&D campaign in a new world I’m making to run for my players, so I’m trying to retcon the source of all magic, add new elements to it while keeping everything else the same. Your videos and articles have been such a great help to me, and I’m looking forward to this next one for inspiration for my magic system!

[@BN-sf2xj]

Oh and btw Shock Copper oxidizes purple, instead of green. That’s the one physical difference between it and regular copper. Once regular copper has oxidized, it no longer works as a magic magnet.

[@themagicengineer5314]

Sounds like a good start. If you want shock copper to be the source of all magic, you might consider tying it directly to spell slots, meaning you need to aquire/use a certain amount for every spell slot you want to recover during a long rest

[@BN-sf2xj]

@@themagicengineer5314 thank you! I was thinking that to use special radiation magic spells, you need an arcane focus made of copper. It’s Ben, btw and this is what my magic system looked like two weeks ago. It’s currently very similar, except that the magical radiation originated from old God-like beings called Khareon.

[@StarlasAiko]

Another way to refresh necromancy is to take it back to its roots. Being a Mancia, necromancy has nothing to do with raising a shambling horde of undead but rather with divination and communication, like in the Necroscope series. The necromancer can talk to the dead for information (would make for boring murder mystery stories, though, if you can just ask the murder victim who killed them) and gain glimpses of the future or past by reading the entrails of dead animals (or people). If you want to freshen the ethical/political/social aspect of it, how about making healing spells a necromantic practice, since that kind of unnatural healing cheats the gods of death and of fate. There may be strong legal or social penalties for doing something we would normally consider good.

[@Sleeper_6875]

Channel deserves more views, great quality content

[@themagicengineer5314]

Thank you :D Glad to hear you're enjoying the videos

[@ryanratchford2530]

Love the pun of the title

[@StarlitSeafoam]

Undeath as a normal part of the life cycle is really fun. Huh. Brings up all kinds of questions about what happens to the spirit of the person, what makes death...death, and if this between state of undeath allows for things like seeing beyond the veil. What if undead were an honored part of society, where anyone who comes back as undead is thought to have some special message or purpose to fullfill, and so necromancy is all about trying to communicate with and help them? My word, that's fun. And when several undead rise at the same time, you know SOMETHING is about to go down...

[@themagicengineer5314]

lol. that sounds amazing! I'd definitely like to see a story like that

[@detritusofseattle]

My version of necromancy is unique, I think, in that it isn't explicitly evil in every case, but rather that it's considered particularly dangerous to the user. Necromancy in the world of Azeri is actually a form of Shamanism. Shamanism in this world works by the shaman communing with the spirits of objects, places, animals, plants, fungi, etc. By doing this, they can merge their spiritual energy into these things in an easier way and work with spirits rather than having to forcibly dominate them the way normal mages do. Shamanism is difficult, requires having an open heart, etc. But if you're successful at it, it allows you to make inanimate spirits animate and summon things like golems, manipulate your element with greater efficiency and power, or make your familiar more powerful by enfusing it with your aura and often giving it a more powerful form (transforming a bird or reptile into a dragon, for example). Necromancy does the same thing, but with the remnant spirits that lay within the bodies of dead animals and humans, elves, goblins, etc. See, when a thing dies, its spirit still leaves some energy behind, and the living bacteria in the body, as well as some living cells, still exist amd have little spirits of their own. The necromancer doesn't pull the dead back from the spirit world- though that is possible, it's just more work and there's less reward. Instead, the necromancer simply communes with those spirits and then gives them the power to become animate. They will then do the necromancer's bidding. So what makes it dangerous? Well, all spirits have a will of their own, and could, in theory, turn on a shaman. But the spirits of an element are less likely to do that, and the spirits of animals or plants, being living things, are less likely to turn on a shaman because they are likely friends with the shaman on some level. A person with a cat familiar, for example, probably also treats the cat as a pet. The minds of these entities are simpler, less complex. But a human, for example, who is raised from the dead still has remnants of their old spirit in there. Those remnants have memories, personality traits, and even skills stitched into them. When raised, all these spiritual energies mesh into a uniform spiritual presence, though unlike a living being they are dependent on the necromancer for their continued animation. Should the necromancer break the spell and stop giving them energy, they die a true death. No afterlife, just the void, a place of mind, where only concepts exist. Inanimate elemental golems don’t mind being released as they simply return to their natural state. But the undead sentients don't necessarily feel the same. Most never "awaken", that is develop minds of their own, but when they do, they become self aware, even remembering what they used to be. They develop a pseudo-soul, which is to say that they have a corporeal form and a mind, but don’t have their own living, animate spirit. They lack the "breath of life" which replenishes that spirit by taking in ambient spirit energy from the universe. They are essentially what would happen if a human consciousness found itself trapped in an Inanimate body. The two don’t mix, and the reaction is one of two things: trying to placate the person who created them so they get to stay animate or coming to resent them and deciding to kill them, take their energy, and try to keep on living by feeding on others and draining their breath of life. The undead have as much desire to live as the living, but unlike the living they aren't naturally animate and would die the second the animating spell runs out of energy. The fresher the corpse, the more likely this awakening is. Of course, the more decayed a body is, the less powerful it will be, and the less you can do with it. So there is a trade off. A skeleton is the weakest undead creature, whereas a vampire or a homunculus- both of which require a fresh corpse that hasn't undergone any decay- is the most powerful (aside from the lich, but liches are just evolved necromancers in the same way faeries are evolved shamans)- but also the most likely to rebel. This makes necromancy especially dangerous to the user, and sometimes the wider community. A rogue vampire or zombie is a problem. Sometimes they occur naturally too, but necromancy can make things worse. Necromancy itself isn't evil, and some nations in Azeri allow it, although with regulations to prevent certain kinds of undead from being created due to the risk they present.

[@themagicengineer5314]

Sounds interesting to play with. I like the rules and limitations you have in place forcing prospective necromancers to balance risk with potential power of their minion

[@Drawoon]

Fun fact: originally -mancy didn't just mean any kind of magic, but specifically divination. Necromancy was diviniation using death or the dead. Similarly, pyromancy was divination using flames.

[@themagicengineer5314]

That is a fun fact. I didn't know that

[@nekokoishi]

Random idea, a necromancer who offers their necromancy as a service for those who wants to become an undead or be revived after they died. Like they could mark the person with a seal of sort so that if the person dies. They get revived or becomes an undead. Which might actually be useful for soldiers or high class people who fears death.

[@themagicengineer5314]

That's fun. It could even go the other way where necromancers will give you a stipend as long as you bear their mark. Basically paying you in advance for the labor provided by your corpse

[@me-yh2kb]

I love the thought of normalizing second life. Makes me think about walking dead (at least what I have seen) where when you die you reawake as a zombie. Necromancers in a setting like this could be seen a benevolent shepherds that could possibly bring people back as "stable beings"

[@themagicengineer5314]

That would be so much fun! You go to a necromancer so your loved one's don't come back feral

[@psionicsknight6651]

One thing I think could be really cool to see-and something I’ll design for a story-is to have necromancers have a “code of conduct” when it comes to their magic and rituals. To give an example: while necromancers still use reanimated corpses to act as minions and free, cheap labor, they also have laws in place that says only those who *agreed* to *willingly* let their bodies be used post-mortem can be reanimated. Then, you could have things like a society where people have something akin to a fantastical version of a “organ donor” status: when they die, their bodies are sent to the local necromancers to be reanimated as they are used. I also think a cool idea could be to have necromancy be used similar to exorcisms: in this case, necromancers find dangerous spirits (poltergeists, phantoms of murderers or murder victims, etc.) and forcibly send them to the afterlife (or whatever is after death) to help protect the living.

[@themagicengineer5314]

OOOOO. I Like that! Think Constantine (with Keanu) but it's a necromancer instead of a priest! I'd watch/read the hell our of something like that!!!

[@psionicsknight6651]

@@themagicengineer5314 I’m glad you do! And yeah, that is a good comparison! Also, if you haven’t checked it out yet, the Locked Tomb series by Tamsyn Muir also has heroic necromancers who might have some aspects similar to Constantine (as of writing this, I have only read about the series but haven’t read it yet, but I hope to). To be honest, I even have a character in my head for this kind of story that would fit a lot of Constantine’s character as well (cynical, anti-social, snarky, etc.). I’m even brainstorming the story, and while I still have a ways to go, I do have a title and basic conflict: The Last Necroturgist-since technically speaking, “-mancy” is a suffix that just means “divination” while “-urgy” is a technically a suffix that means “work/technique for working with” I’m going to rename a lot of magic-users with that suffix in my story-and the main story will be about a group of five other mages trying to find the last remaining necroturgists/necromancers to stop an invading “zombies” with the catch being the zombies are biomechanical, H. R. Giger-styled, eusocial (and Hive Minded) creatures that actually have a *very* hard time working with dead and decaying matter. I’ll be sure to send you an email about when it’s available, if you’d like. 🙂

[@themagicengineer5314]

@@psionicsknight6651 Please do!

[@psionicsknight6651]

@@themagicengineer5314 You got it!

[@VestigialLung]

I tend to play around with the perception end a lot. Years ago, I built a culture around a pantheistic religion. Life and death magic were just the manifestation of the joy and pain of their world goddess. Healing a person was literally blessing them with Gaia’s joy. Necromantic magic was frequently used as a punishment for crimes with the offender literally bearing some of the burden of pain they caused the goddess, up to and including reanimation as undead for particularly egregious offenses. They operated essentially as militant druids, so their armies were often bolstered by the reanimated corpses of those who fell in battle against them, as they are clearly guilty of supporting the mass violence against their goddess. Currently working on a world with a society that draws a fair amount of inspiration from the Dustmen from Planescape, where necromancy is far from beloved in society at large, but it is tolerated, and even respected for particularly dangerous jobs. I’ll also probably be stealing the first society from myself to stick somewhere, as the world that was for died on the vine years ago.

[@themagicengineer5314]

interesting. Is this for a story or a TTRPG campaign?

[@aydenbrotheridge7214]

I like the idea of turning the perspective, what if you did a story where the main character is an undead and has to explain how necromancy changes them but they are still bound by mortal law like needing food, rest, heat from their soul flame (if skeletal) etc. I'd love for you to explore the concept of changing perspectives on the magic systems from the systems themselves to the individuals actually affected such as undead in necromancy, elementals/spirits in contractual magic, gods whom share their powers with their priests etc.

[@themagicengineer5314]

That would be interesting to explore the life of the undead

[@kimboosan]

I'm really enjoying your deep dives into magic systems/worldbuilding! So glad I found this channel. Thank you!

[@themagicengineer5314]

glad to hear it! if there's something you'd like to see explored, be sure to let me know :)

[@audreyhughey]

This gave me an amazing idea at the end!

[@themagicengineer5314]

Excellent! That's the goal

[@anthonywritesfantasy]

In one of my chapters, the POV is the corpse being raised.

[@themagicengineer5314]

Oh, that's great. I don't know that I've seen that before

[@audreyhughey]

So many good ideas. Your videos are so inspiring!

[@themagicengineer5314]

Thank you so much!

[@wizthrift]

I think it would be really awesome if you were to cover blood magic.

[@themagicengineer5314]

Copy that! I don't know if blood magic is a full magic system archetype, but I'll definitely add it to the list of tropes to explore

[@vncmtr3090]

I love your practical and analytical approach to subverting tropes ! Many thanks again for all the thinking tools and ideas you freely share out there. You're an inspiration to storytellers :) I'm very excited about this episode on Necromancy, my players actually just got propelled 50 years into the future and find out they're in the middle of "necroland"... but just as you suggested here, necromancy (and transmutation) have become predominant due to a deadly war against a much stronger enemy, leaving very few people alive. Thanks to you, I've now fleshed out the concept in more detail : the dead have become a necessary workforce, especially in some toxic parts of the wasteland, and a protection against the incursion of the enemy. They provide for, and protect, the living, and are seen much in the style of ancestor worship.

[@themagicengineer5314]

Excellent! Thank you for the kind words and I'm glad I could help spark ideas. What system are you using? That sounds like a fun game

[@alexandredesouza3692]

It's interesting to envision a necromancer who is able to see, touch and communicate with the recently deceased instead of being able go revive them. Like a reverse midwife nurse, a mortal guiding the undead to the after life. Or perhaps, more evil: a legion of necromancers to revive noblemen and their armies of indentured soldiers or workers. The noblemen may never face punishment for forcing hundreds to work or fight themselves to death over and over again.

[@Andrewtr6]

Right at the start of the video a thought popped into my head surrounding necromancy. Basically, I hate when it's too easy for characters to be raised from the dead. Because of this, I prefer necromancy when it either raises the person as a corpse with 0 intelligence or brings the person back to life but at the cost that they are forever bound to the necromancer (works best if the necromancer is evil). And this gave me a story idea. It would follow a poor soul who died, tragically, then they get raised from the dead by a hopelessly evil necromancer who forces them to do tasks they don't agree with. Literally just thought of this so that's all I got. This story would probably fall under the 'leave it how it is' type of necromancy. After watching this video, I now want to do something with necromancy. I might put more of a focus on it in the modern fantasy story I'm working on. Speaking of, Idk if you'll even see this comment, but I would absolutely love if you did a video on writing magic schools!

[@themagicengineer5314]

That would be a really fun story. I don't know if you're familiar with the LitRPG genre, but that would be an awesome place to tell the story of a necromancer's underling that has to learn the system and find a way to live their life as best they can :D I've added Magic Schools to the list of topic ideas. Thanks for mentioning it :)

[@yannickchristianmuller214]

Check the dnd story a gray necromancer for a necromancer and hero prospective done well

[@Menzobarrenza]

Hello! I'm a new viewer, and find your channel concept to be fantastic! I would appreciate a video on the trope if Blood Magic. I'd love to hear your thoughts, as I will be implementing some version of it into my setting.

[@themagicengineer5314]

Welcome and thank you for the suggestion. Blood magic has been requested a lot so that's definitely going to be the next "Make It Fresh" video I do :)

[@jonleonard1555]

Just thought of idea while watching. Say there's a world where necromancy is something that's been sanctioned by the state & church (or in other words, not considered illegal or immoral) and the families of the deceased are payed for the services that are being provided (manual labor, soldier, etc). What if the controversy comes in when a group of engineers develop automatons, like golems and warforged, to provide the same services? Is it better for these engineers to get paid for the work their creations perform, or for families to still benefit for their lost members (who may have been the major bread winners) when all the concerned parties agreed it was acceptable? It's the tale as old as time "Those people are stealing our jobs", but should that shift from undead to artificial take place?

[@TheMichaellathrop]

An interesting question for your setting is how are the necromancers themselves treated? are the all rounded up and instantly pressed into military service by the state or the church, are they treated as de-facto nobles or branded and escorted about by paladins who will force their obedience?

[@themagicengineer5314]

I really like that. If for no other reason that you could continue to support your family even in death. It also opens the door to all kinds of idioms and turns of phrase. Historically, being "piss poor" meant you were so poor that you had to sell your urine to tanners for a miniscule profit. In this world, people might be "dead poor" meaning they are so poor the only option left is to seel themselves or someone in their family to the necromancers for labor

[@mattaduH]

😅 nice plot twist …necro nation 🙃 Where can I sign up for? At all crazy new perspectives to think bout. Still a bit confused but very entertaining

[@themagicengineer5314]

Anything in particular that was confusing? Happy to try and clarify as needed

[@Barianus]

I don't know if making necromancers have more character than your usual pure evil villain is really subverting the tropes of the magic system, but at least it gives them more character, which is never a BAD thing. Y'know, unless it clashes with what they are supposed to be of course. The whole idea of necromancers winning societal respect by making a place of their own is interesting. Would the be able to make great infrastructure projects and advances in medicine by their legions of undead and magic so intimately connected with death (and staving it off)? Would their nation draw in those who also feel scorned by the outside world until it becomes major contender at world stage? And would that force an attitude adjustment, or drive main conflict when other nations look for excuse to destroy a suddenly massive economic rival by trying to use their necromantic talents as an excuse for war of extermination?

[@themagicengineer5314]

I could see all of the above happening! That would make a fantastic backdrop for a movie, book, or even a game. Lots of grey areas as characters in one place are taught one thing and learn it's actually something else entirely. LOTS of fun to be had with those ideas

[@adamshafeeq8685]

This may sound like an odd topic but how about a video about making viruses and diseases? Causes, symptoms, cures, etc.

[@themagicengineer5314]

Hmmm. I'll have to think about that... it sounds like an interesting topic for sure. That could be a fun worldbuilding discussion

[@daddyleon]

Thanks! I never liked/agreed with that necramacers are/should-be seen as awful people. If it was always there...surely it would've been involved in some sort of death ritual. A huge number of religions have something with afterlives, be they merely "spiritual" (like heaven) or even "physical" (reincarnation). Heck, in Indonesia there are the Toraja who kinda keep their family around for many years aftertheir deaths. So it makes no sense what-so-ever to have necromances be horrible outcasts if it was always a thing. If they've come come another place, however like aliens or people who did a little science...then maybe. but still, probably not. How many religions (that is: moral systems with myths and just-so explanations that accompany the moral part and provide a sense of identity and community) tell you that killling people is wrong? All of them, yet, we have "just wars" or other rules that make exceptions for killing people. Would the overwhelming usefulness of necromancy not similarly provide people with ample motivated reasoning to come up with something? Even when the corpses scream out in pain, I'm sure there are some taht would say: "but the spirit already left this is nothing real. It's like the knee-hammer reflex or how electricity can make muscles move". Descartes didn't think animals could feel any pain at all, so he did lots of horrible tests...those animals screamed and twiched in pain, but he had reasons to not think they did. He called them 'mechanisms' or 'automata'. Given th time that he lived in...I wonder, what would he have thought of other races?

[@themagicengineer5314]

totally agree! Fortunately, it's just part of the archetype so it's easy enough to change things up to better represent how you feel it should fit into your world

[@lucasfv1357]

Ha, this was my first thought when I saw you had a video about tropes; to me it's the most interesting standard category of magic to play with. I'd like to see necromancy stripped of moral implicancies (at least form the start) in a setting; or at least not seen as less natural than setting someone on fire out of the blue. My favorite take on necromancy is that is as useful and as dangerous as any other magical skill: all the possible horrors of it are true and the idea that someone might use the remains of your loved ones as tools is infuriating to say the least. But, for example, ghosts are terrifying, alien, eldritch entities with unexplainable powers to affect reality and curse people, entities that generate themselves and only necromancers are able to fully deal with, allowing them to let go of their mosntruous hate and fixations, for the greater good of a population. Also I can imagine a society in which it's accepted to donate your skeletal remains so the state necromancers will animate them for dangerous or unsanitary public work going from mining to the cleaning of waste to even help in famine or disastrous situations. And, since I know you're a Sanderson fan, I gotta say I like the use he gave to undead in Warbreaker.

[@themagicengineer5314]

Agreed! The Lifeless were definitely interesting and I keep hoping he'll return to that universe someday to explore that more. I totally agree about seeing necromancy without the moral association. They kind of do this in Gideon the Ninth. But it would be cool to see necromancy used as a constructive force in society. Other nations might give them side-eye, but imagine the construction and efforts they coudl perform without risking life or resorting to slavery! Thanks for all the great comments so far Lucas!

[@lucasfv1357]

Thank you for the good quality content, sir

[@themagicengineer5314]

@@lucasfv1357 Happy to do it! And always feel free to ping me here or even send me an email at [e-mail] if you have topics you'd like to see covered

[@YourBoyNobody530]

One thing I disliked about the D&D 5e necromancy is the lack of necromancy themed offensive spells, and the lack of creativity with raising the dead.

[@themagicengineer5314]

Agreed. It felt pretty lackluster to me, especially compared to schools like conjuration, illusion, and transmutation

[@GinHindew110]

How to Make Necromancy Fresh Again? Use fresher corpses *¯\_(ツ)_/¯*

[@themagicengineer5314]

It's so hard to rais a good family these days. No matter how hard you try, the bugs always get to them first ;)

[@issacthompson330]

The best way to keep Necromancy fresh is to not use corpses older than a few hours. (Bad joke, I know)

[@themagicengineer5314]

😆

[@inabsolutedarkness13]

Also, Ancestral Veneration is technically necromancy so... Many real religions are necromanctic in nature (Norse for example)

[@Drawoon]

I want to represent necromancy kind of like what happened with it irl. It used to be pretty normal everywhere, until one imperialist religion decided it was unnatural. Now the practice is outlawed, and necromancers are exiled or killed

[@Vopyr]

It would be worth first learning the meaning of the word Necromancy and the etymology of this word, and then talking about magic and "evil" necromancers